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For those who don't know, forums.penny-arcade.com will be closing soon. However, we're doing the same kind of stuff over at coin-return.org with (almost) all the same faces! Please do feel welcome to join us.
For those who don't know, forums.penny-arcade.com will be closing soon. However, we're doing the same kind of stuff over at coin-return.org with (almost) all the same faces! Please do feel welcome to join us.
For those who don't know, forums.penny-arcade.com will be closing soon. However, we're doing the same kind of stuff over at coin-return.org with (almost) all the same faces! Please do feel welcome to join us.
For those who don't know, forums.penny-arcade.com will be closing soon. However, we're doing the same kind of stuff over at coin-return.org with (almost) all the same faces! Please do feel welcome to join us.
Posts
Hey now, I'm not Michelle Bachmann.
huh look at that
If it turns out they're building a unilateral coalition behind the scenes and want to be the final word on all decisions, then your concerns will be validated, but I don't think that's going to happen, if for no other reason than it would probably just kill off the community entirely anyway.
I don't know if you've taken a look at SE++ today, but I'm pretty sure the majority of the most frequent posters there aren't going to want to join a new forum community unless there's a huge migration in power structures.
Switch Friend Code: SW-1406-1275-7906
MHWilds ID: JF9LL8L3
It's been less than a week.
Everyone here is a volunteer. Especially the mods and admins.
Do people actually expect meaningful decisions to have been made at this point? Especially for something as far downstream and mutable (and dependent upon technical direction) as the structure of the new forums?
MHWilds ID: JF9LL8L3
I am assuming no, based on comments from the mods about PA wanting a clean break. However, I'm also hoping to have us live on the new forums by end February or March so that we'll have a couple of months where we can have our own message posted to everyone visiting forums.penny-arcade.com directing them to the new spot.
yeah but Gabe and Tycho like us right?
Best case they host a landing page saying we moved and aren't part of PA any more.
Most likely, if we're lucky Jerry mentions it in a newspost one time.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
So far I think a few questions have come up for PA corp and it would be nice to know what has or has not been communicated and who is working on it (or not).
Questions I’m aware of so far:
- deets on usage from current forums, unless Ramius already has that.
- Can the forums retain a similar sounding name (like PAforums), or do we need a complete disconnect.
- What’s their intention with the current forum data (are we allowed to migrate anything?)
- a hosted page on the dead forums page when it goes, that mentions the community moved (if possible at least a mention of a google-able name to try and follow).
I’m sure there’s more but just wanted to start a list for my own reference.
* The club must be organized for exempt purposes
It's clear from the examples that it's intended for groups that provide "facilities", but let's set aside that for a moment and look at the second:
* The club must provide an opportunity for personal contact among members and membership must be limited
Regarding personal contact:
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/other-non-profits/social-clubs-requirements-for-exemption-personal-contact-required
Regarding membership:
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/other-non-profits/social-clubs-requirements-for-exemption-limited-membership
The arguments that we satisfy these conditions are pretty semantic. We can say the forums provide "personal contact" in the form of text, and that membership is limited by "requires an email address", but I really have no idea if that will stand up.
I can't find any secondary sources that suggest a 501c7 can be used for a purely online organization.
I think this is where spool would be able to weigh in, as the 501c7 was the instrument used for the exclusively online neverwinter nights service that he was a part of.
These are definitely the kind of questions we would be asking the lawyer when we setup the 501c7.
As a not-lawyer, I feel that discussion in the forums between members definitely qualifies as personal contact. If we really wanted or needed to we could provide a space where people could use the forums to organize occasional local get togethers / dinners / etc which we know some groups of posters already do that seems like it would meet the other requirements even if online only talking doesn't meet the standard for personal contact.
Since there is a registration process involved with joining and being able to post (and maybe read sections of the forum), my layman read is that meets the membership requirement. We don't allow the general public to use the forums in the same way we will allow registered users to do, so even if we don't charge dues or require some hours of service or something to participate it's still not 'public'.
But again, lawyers will answer these questions for us.
I consider a likely outcome to be the following: forumers who maintain a monthly contribution level of $X may become members of the organization (subject to basic vetting). We may eventually extend additional privileges to such members. For example, if and when board membership transitions from fiat to a potentially elected structure, we may have members vote for those position.
While we are talking legalities, the following has been bouncing around my head and I have been unable to come up with a good plan: board members will have their real names in our publicly-available filings. Considering that we at times have trouble with forumers bullying those they disagree with, that's something that requires some thought.
Yeah, for sure. Big downsides to consider. And in any event a decision for probably years down the line. No need to litigate it now.
It's just something that often is the case for clubs, membership requires vetting and monthly dues, so I'm using it as an example to illustrate the difference between a member and a forumer.
I agree that money shouldn’t be the issue but the bottom line is that there needs to be a leadership group in place and some people will inevitably be excluded. For example, I am really invested in how the new forums turn out but I’m not American, so I’ll never be on the board of directors or whatever. It is what it is.
Consulting with an attorney (unless someone has very specific experience matching our needs and desires) is certainly the first step because they can provide the options for what defines a member, can we say have a tiny one time fee for membership purposes and allow regular donations/payments and drives for operational funding?
I firmly disagree with any vetting process more than verifying they are a person and there is no evidence they're joining to harass members.
Since the goal is to have a community forum run by the community a cooperative legal structure for the entity makes the most sense, as such those values, principles and requirements for democratic election of officers should be enshrined in the founding bylaws and if there is a requirement for temporary officers during the founding process it should be defined how soon elections will occur and they should occur at a time sufficiently soon enough that the elected board members are part of the transition process and standing up the new community entity.
When I speak of vetting, I'm just talking about avoiding harassers, spammers, hostile takeover attempts, etc. At some point, one or more humans will be involved in processing a membership application. I sincerely doubt we'd want to 100% automate that.
We should try to figure out asap how we can pay a lawyer. Incorporation isn't strictly necessary to collect funds - it's more for tax purposes and community trust. It seems like we need an advance on that trust somehow. Either the community needs to assemble some seed money, or someone has to front the funds and be reimbursed once incorporation is all settled. We can't chicken-and-egg forever.
This, I think, is going to be the biggest hurdle on the process, it's seeming like, because it requires a handful of people to take that leap of faith that this whole thing might actually work.
Microsoft has server parks around Amsterdam. I'm not sure if a small club like ours can influence where data is stored.