Penny Arcade Forums› Future State Planning Center
Having problems registering on Coin Return? Please email support@coin-return.org, and include your PA username and PIN.
For those who don't know, forums.penny-arcade.com will be closing soon. However, we're doing the same kind of stuff over at coin-return.org with (almost) all the same faces! Please do feel welcome to join us.
For those who don't know, forums.penny-arcade.com will be closing soon. However, we're doing the same kind of stuff over at coin-return.org with (almost) all the same faces! Please do feel welcome to join us.
For those who don't know, forums.penny-arcade.com will be closing soon. However, we're doing the same kind of stuff over at coin-return.org with (almost) all the same faces! Please do feel welcome to join us.
For those who don't know, forums.penny-arcade.com will be closing soon. However, we're doing the same kind of stuff over at coin-return.org with (almost) all the same faces! Please do feel welcome to join us.

Content and Data Migration: The Social/Legal/Ethical Thread

1…1617181921

Posts

  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    amateurhour wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Drascin wrote: »
    Well, I bowed out of this discussion a while ago, because I was getting kind of annoyed at people, but I guess deleting has already started? A bunch of my old posts have partially vanished - I can still see the post starts in my profile but hitting view post leads me to the top of a page in the thread with a bunch of empty Unknown posts. I assume because I must have been quoting someone who asked their posts deleted, so mine are gone too.

    Probably a good reminder to try to find some reasonable way to navigate my old posts that is not the terrible profile page so I can save useful stuff.

    any deletions thus far have been user specific (by request). there's no broader action to delete anything

    e: there is also no plan to carry anything over (currently) outside of specific things like active game threads

    The one exception to this is that an OP is a different object from a message, and if the person who is the OP gets their stuff deleted it will cascade unhouse/delete all the posts in that thread as well.

    so you're saying it's a...

    ...vanilla extract?

    6z8b7qlsnf50.gif

    No I don't.
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products, Transition Team regular
    amateurhour wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Drascin wrote: »
    Well, I bowed out of this discussion a while ago, because I was getting kind of annoyed at people, but I guess deleting has already started? A bunch of my old posts have partially vanished - I can still see the post starts in my profile but hitting view post leads me to the top of a page in the thread with a bunch of empty Unknown posts. I assume because I must have been quoting someone who asked their posts deleted, so mine are gone too.

    Probably a good reminder to try to find some reasonable way to navigate my old posts that is not the terrible profile page so I can save useful stuff.

    any deletions thus far have been user specific (by request). there's no broader action to delete anything

    e: there is also no plan to carry anything over (currently) outside of specific things like active game threads

    The one exception to this is that an OP is a different object from a message, and if the person who is the OP gets their stuff deleted it will cascade unhouse/delete all the posts in that thread as well.

    so you're saying it's a...

    ...vanilla extract?

    199vcd24bfd9.jpeg

  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    half a day later and I stand by it.

    are YOU on the beer list?
  • HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    edited November 2024
    amateurhour wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Drascin wrote: »
    Well, I bowed out of this discussion a while ago, because I was getting kind of annoyed at people, but I guess deleting has already started? A bunch of my old posts have partially vanished - I can still see the post starts in my profile but hitting view post leads me to the top of a page in the thread with a bunch of empty Unknown posts. I assume because I must have been quoting someone who asked their posts deleted, so mine are gone too.

    Probably a good reminder to try to find some reasonable way to navigate my old posts that is not the terrible profile page so I can save useful stuff.

    any deletions thus far have been user specific (by request). there's no broader action to delete anything

    e: there is also no plan to carry anything over (currently) outside of specific things like active game threads

    The one exception to this is that an OP is a different object from a message, and if the person who is the OP gets their stuff deleted it will cascade unhouse/delete all the posts in that thread as well.

    so you're saying it's a...

    ...vanilla extract?

    Boo!
    BOOO!

    HerrCron on
    Now Playing:
    Celeste [Switch] - She'll be wrestling with inner demons when she comes...
    Octopath Traveler - MY BLADE IS UNBENDING
  • zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    syndalis wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Drascin wrote: »
    Well, I bowed out of this discussion a while ago, because I was getting kind of annoyed at people, but I guess deleting has already started? A bunch of my old posts have partially vanished - I can still see the post starts in my profile but hitting view post leads me to the top of a page in the thread with a bunch of empty Unknown posts. I assume because I must have been quoting someone who asked their posts deleted, so mine are gone too.

    Probably a good reminder to try to find some reasonable way to navigate my old posts that is not the terrible profile page so I can save useful stuff.

    any deletions thus far have been user specific (by request). there's no broader action to delete anything

    e: there is also no plan to carry anything over (currently) outside of specific things like active game threads

    The one exception to this is that an OP is a different object from a message, and if the person who is the OP gets their stuff deleted it will cascade unhouse/delete all the posts in that thread as well.

    Oof that's kinda a big thing already and good to know.

    So like if Chanus decided to nuke his account we would lose like all the chat threads because of his OP status?

    I guess it doesn't matter soon enough but I didn't realize a delete your account mattered if you were an OP.

  • ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderator mod
    zagdrob wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Drascin wrote: »
    Well, I bowed out of this discussion a while ago, because I was getting kind of annoyed at people, but I guess deleting has already started? A bunch of my old posts have partially vanished - I can still see the post starts in my profile but hitting view post leads me to the top of a page in the thread with a bunch of empty Unknown posts. I assume because I must have been quoting someone who asked their posts deleted, so mine are gone too.

    Probably a good reminder to try to find some reasonable way to navigate my old posts that is not the terrible profile page so I can save useful stuff.

    any deletions thus far have been user specific (by request). there's no broader action to delete anything

    e: there is also no plan to carry anything over (currently) outside of specific things like active game threads

    The one exception to this is that an OP is a different object from a message, and if the person who is the OP gets their stuff deleted it will cascade unhouse/delete all the posts in that thread as well.

    Oof that's kinda a big thing already and good to know.

    So like if Chanus decided to nuke his account we would lose like all the chat threads because of his OP status?

    I guess it doesn't matter soon enough but I didn't realize a delete your account mattered if you were an OP.

    there is a method that doesn't nuke the threads which is what we've been using more recently because the full delete has other unwanted side effects

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    zagdrob wrote: »
    syndalis wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Drascin wrote: »
    Well, I bowed out of this discussion a while ago, because I was getting kind of annoyed at people, but I guess deleting has already started? A bunch of my old posts have partially vanished - I can still see the post starts in my profile but hitting view post leads me to the top of a page in the thread with a bunch of empty Unknown posts. I assume because I must have been quoting someone who asked their posts deleted, so mine are gone too.

    Probably a good reminder to try to find some reasonable way to navigate my old posts that is not the terrible profile page so I can save useful stuff.

    any deletions thus far have been user specific (by request). there's no broader action to delete anything

    e: there is also no plan to carry anything over (currently) outside of specific things like active game threads

    The one exception to this is that an OP is a different object from a message, and if the person who is the OP gets their stuff deleted it will cascade unhouse/delete all the posts in that thread as well.

    Oof that's kinda a big thing already and good to know.

    So like if Chanus decided to nuke his account we would lose like all the chat threads because of his OP status?

    I guess it doesn't matter soon enough but I didn't realize a delete your account mattered if you were an OP.

    there is a method that doesn't nuke the threads which is what we've been using more recently because the full delete has other unwanted side effects

    Yeah, someone deleted an account and somehow Chanus became a mod. Weird shit.

    Would you say I had a plethora of pinatas?

    Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Delzhand wrote: »
    Xenforo has granular controls for username changes:
    * How often a user can change their own name
    * How long their old username shows in some kind of "formerly known as" display on posts (haven't tested this to see what it looks like)
    * How long their previous username is "held", preventing someone else from snatching it

    In any case a user's full name change history is available to admins or mods (based on what permissions we set).

    I think all of that is useful in the context of just having usernames like vanilla does. If we want to move towards a displayname/username thing then we can sort of sublimate the appearance of the username and leave changes to usernames in the hands of mods entirely.

    Either is a significant improvement over the current situation, I don't have strong feelings one way or the other.

    This seems like the best compromise. I think the Discord/Steam model is the best: you have an account name that can't be changed, with a display name that can. I know lots of people are sensitive to changes in the way others present themselves in a space like this, but I don't think it's smart or desirable to bind user identity to a single handle that is largely immutable but for moderator approval. I don't want there to continue to be a large concentration of social power in the hands of a select few, even if they do end up being elected. Users should be allowed to make the determination for themselves how they want to be seen.

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    I think by-and-large the vast majority of folks will never change their handles or will only change them a couple of times, if ever. But there are definitely going to be people who will use it to troll, even in jest, even if only for like an hour that one time they got drunk, and I think it's reasonable to either have safeguards or rules in place to stop people from doing that kind of thing in general.

    I also think making the permanent account name (or some kind of permanent unique ID - it can even be a bunch of numbers/letters) always visible is important, even if it's not the most prominent thing there.

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    I think worrying about that sort of thing isn't really a reason to let people do something that literally every other social platform does without issue. Do not arrest the ability of others to engage in self-expression for fear of bad faith actors; you are borrowing problems at that point.

    Especially because this forum will be full of people who are mid-30s plus. I really, really, really don't think this is going to be an ongoing issue. People aren't going to engage in the sort of trouble everyone here is worrying about without expending a serious amount of activation energy to get there.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    All usernames should at least be unique, even if they can be easily changed.

    I'd rather not have to weed through figuring out if posters are being impersonated or not when something abhorrent is posted to the board.

    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    Did we decide if user histories are getting ported over? Like original join dates, number of posts, etc?

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products, Transition Team regular
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    Did we decide if user histories are getting ported over? Like original join dates, number of posts, etc?

    Work has kept me from finishing the swing on the module, but my intention is to have a resource with everyones username, join date, post counts, and url to avatar that will be used to create the new user after you have verified that you are you.

    I got about 50% of the way there before needing to take a break, but it won't be hard to get done.

    How we choose to use the post count, as in rolling it into your total or just having a legacy post count field somewhere hasn't been decided on, but the mechanics are all there to do this.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    discrider wrote: »
    All usernames should at least be unique, even if they can be easily changed.

    I'd rather not have to weed through figuring out if posters are being impersonated or not when something abhorrent is posted to the board.

    If users can change their own usernames on a whim, I hope there are strict punishments for changing your name for the purposes of either posing as or mocking other posters.

    Would you say I had a plethora of pinatas?

    Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
  • minor incidentminor incident publicly subsidized! privately profitable!Registered User, Transition Team regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    All usernames should at least be unique, even if they can be easily changed.

    I'd rather not have to weed through figuring out if posters are being impersonated or not when something abhorrent is posted to the board.

    If users can change their own usernames on a whim, I hope there are strict punishments for changing your name for the purposes of either posing as or mocking other posters.

    We talked about this briefly last night when we were working on some of our key decisions to present. We definitely want a specific callout for zero tolerance on name changes for impersonating or mocking/insulting other users. So that's definitely on the radar.

    Hell, New Jersey, it said on the letter. Delivered without comment. So be it!
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    minor incident wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    All usernames should at least be unique, even if they can be easily changed.

    I'd rather not have to weed through figuring out if posters are being impersonated or not when something abhorrent is posted to the board.

    If users can change their own usernames on a whim, I hope there are strict punishments for changing your name for the purposes of either posing as or mocking other posters.

    We talked about this briefly last night when we were working on some of our key decisions to present. We definitely want a specific callout for zero tolerance on name changes for impersonating or mocking/insulting other users. So that's definitely on the radar.

    I assume the person with waaay too much time on their hands and 50 billion alts will just keep getting banned, so that's 95% of the problem right there. But good to have it covered.

  • minor incidentminor incident publicly subsidized! privately profitable!Registered User, Transition Team regular
    Yeah, that’s its own dumb thing. We just want to make sure no actual posters here decide it would be funny to abuse the name change system to be an asshole.

    Hell, New Jersey, it said on the letter. Delivered without comment. So be it!
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    minor incident wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    All usernames should at least be unique, even if they can be easily changed.

    I'd rather not have to weed through figuring out if posters are being impersonated or not when something abhorrent is posted to the board.

    If users can change their own usernames on a whim, I hope there are strict punishments for changing your name for the purposes of either posing as or mocking other posters.

    We talked about this briefly last night when we were working on some of our key decisions to present. We definitely want a specific callout for zero tolerance on name changes for impersonating or mocking/insulting other users. So that's definitely on the radar.

    I assume the person with waaay too much time on their hands and 50 billion alts will just keep getting banned, so that's 95% of the problem right there. But good to have it covered.

    I rather think that, even if they keep being banned, it is still reliant on the admins seeing and deleting the offending account before anyone else sees the masquerading posts and before anyone else misattributes the posts to the targeted user.
    I do not believe people will put in the work of figuring out that an impersonated poster is being impersonated, basically.
    So it's likely best to make sure no one can actually impersonate someone perfectly.

    Steam Community page: http://steamcommunity.com/id/discrider/
  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler CORegistered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    rhylith wrote: »
    Has a date for any official scrape been set yet?

    I’m going to want to nuke my shit before that, but not until it’s time.

    as i understand it there is no official scrape happening but some specific CR game threads are planning to be moved over

    Can I poke at this a bit? There's 21 pages to this thread, so I'm sure I'm missing some context.
    • Are there legal / ethical / moral considerations to officially scraping any public, internet-facing part of this forum? The answer here can just be "yes;" I think it probably comes back to replicating someone's communication without their consent is (ethically) dubious and has possible legal considerations (what if someone wants us to take it down, etc). And I'd rather we start Coin Return off on a the correct footing.
    • Are there legal / ethical / moral considerations to unofficially scraping any public, internet-facing part of this forum that I'm missing? From an unofficial "here's a link to something that happened in the past" perspective, a static scrape of some types of content (eg, PbP games, Mafia/Phalla/Werewolf, etc) uploaded to an S3 bucket seems less dubious. Actively maintained vs. historical archive.

  • SkeithSkeith Registered User regular
    The short answer is yes, there probably are issues you're missing if you've opted to skip over the thread (yes there's a lot here but it is worth reading-- maybe not in one shot, but we've covered a lot of ground). An official or unofficial scrape done wholecloth runs into the same issues. Cherrypicking phallas and LP threads and such is on steadier ground.

    aTBDrQE.jpg
  • ToxTox I kill threads Dilige, et quod vis facRegistered User regular
    edited December 2024
    There's also a considerable ... vibes difference between just a full flat automated scrape it all, compared to a few specific threads being deliberately ported via, like, effort (even if the effort is only in identifying and making a good faith effort to obtain consent where it can and consider it where it can't)

    Maybe there shouldn't be, but humans be like that

    Tox on
    maybe the real panopticon was the friends we made along the way
  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler CORegistered User regular
    Skeith wrote: »
    The short answer is yes, there probably are issues you're missing if you've opted to skip over the thread (yes there's a lot here but it is worth reading-- maybe not in one shot, but we've covered a lot of ground). An official or unofficial scrape done wholecloth runs into the same issues. Cherrypicking phallas and LP threads and such is on steadier ground.
    "Go read 800 posts" is definitely an answer, even if I was hoping more for a TLDR. I don't have that sort of time at the moment, but as long as the forums aren't going anywhere until May or whatever I can wait a week or two.

  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    the tl:dr is several people didn't want their stuff migrated at all, to a point where there was a general consensus based on the survey (which did receive a 1.0 update after the election, admittedly) and the call made was "we're only porting over choice stuff"

    the reasons given

    - people don't want a 20 year archive of forum drama
    - people don't want their edgelord opinions preserved in carbonite
    - people don't want their political/personal ideologies preserved in carbonite with the upcoming administration looming (in the US)
    - people wanted a fresh start

    are YOU on the beer list?
  • SkeithSkeith Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Skeith wrote: »
    The short answer is yes, there probably are issues you're missing if you've opted to skip over the thread (yes there's a lot here but it is worth reading-- maybe not in one shot, but we've covered a lot of ground). An official or unofficial scrape done wholecloth runs into the same issues. Cherrypicking phallas and LP threads and such is on steadier ground.
    "Go read 800 posts" is definitely an answer, even if I was hoping more for a TLDR. I don't have that sort of time at the moment, but as long as the forums aren't going anywhere until May or whatever I can wait a week or two.

    Part of it is me being a smartass, because to make a tldr for a thread like this would require wading through it again. If I could do a quick one, I would, but I don't want to put words in mouths or miscommunicate.

    aTBDrQE.jpg
  • lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    I may have missed it, but has there been discussion about removing older posts from the coin return forums as well? For the same non-technical reasons we wouldn't want threads from ten years ago brought over, it stands to reason we should have a limited lifetime for posts.

    I would download a car.
  • SkeithSkeith Registered User regular
    Afaik there hasn't been discussion about that here.

    aTBDrQE.jpg
  • minor incidentminor incident publicly subsidized! privately profitable!Registered User, Transition Team regular
    Hasn't specifically come up. It's worth discussing if we'll do any kind of auto purging, but my feeling is that it's probably not something that we'll be able to devote too much time deciding on right now just because it's an issue we won't actually run into for years and there are a lot of pressing things that have to be ironed out first.

    Not dismissing it, mind you. It's worth thinking about whether we're going to keep everything forever, at some point.

    Hell, New Jersey, it said on the letter. Delivered without comment. So be it!
  • ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderator mod
    i did see some brief discussion around the idea of purging threads after X years or at least locking threads after Y period of inactivity but nothing on the level of actually ironing out a plan either way

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] regular
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • DelzhandDelzhand Coin Return Admin Registered User, Transition Team regular
    I don't know about purging from the database, but we can definitely set at the forum level "don't show threads older than X", so if the discussion lands there I don't anticipate problems

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] regular
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • aiouaaioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    also like, if on CR posters have no roadblocks to deleting or anonymizing their posts it's probably less of a problem

    here we have a long history of posts where the posters never had a choice but to have everything be public forever

    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
  • DelzhandDelzhand Coin Return Admin Registered User, Transition Team regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    Delzhand wrote: »
    I don't know about purging from the database, but we can definitely set at the forum level "don't show threads older than X", so if the discussion lands there I don't anticipate problems

    Switching to modern forum software is wild. This must be how Boomers felt when smartphones became a thing. Just a constant stream of "Wait it can just do that?"

    telling people that XF can do stuff is like free awesomes for me

  • BowenBowen Sup? Registered User regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    Delzhand wrote: »
    I don't know about purging from the database, but we can definitely set at the forum level "don't show threads older than X", so if the discussion lands there I don't anticipate problems

    Switching to modern forum software is wild. This must be how Boomers felt when smartphones became a thing. Just a constant stream of "Wait it can just do that?"

    The stupidest thing it's not even modern forum software.

    phpbb/vbulletin have had these features for over a decade now vanilla was just very barebones unless you had plugins/modules for it.

    Apparently private messages are plugins? Just something that should be base behavior isn't... and when things like those aren't base behavior they break when you upgrade the core software for bug fixes... et voila everything is held together with bubblegum and dreams.

  • FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    Delzhand wrote: »
    I don't know about purging from the database, but we can definitely set at the forum level "don't show threads older than X", so if the discussion lands there I don't anticipate problems

    Switching to modern forum software is wild. This must be how Boomers felt when smartphones became a thing. Just a constant stream of "Wait it can just do that?"

    The stupidest thing it's not even modern forum software.

    phpbb/vbulletin have had these features for over a decade now vanilla was just very barebones unless you had plugins/modules for it.

    Apparently private messages are plugins? Just something that should be base behavior isn't... and when things like those aren't base behavior they break when you upgrade the core software for bug fixes... et voila everything is held together with bubblegum and dreams.

    some modern features we're about to get also existed in vanilla and our vbb installs but were turned off by the previous admins arbitrarily so there's also that

  • lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    Alphamonkey was in the middle of the stand-up when he took off to whereever, so a lot of the stuff that could've happened with vanilla ... didn't.

    I would download a car.
  • FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2024
    well yeah, he had a very understandable reason for doing that

    FyreWulff on
  • DelzhandDelzhand Coin Return Admin Registered User, Transition Team regular
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    well yeah, he had a very understandable reason for doing that

    Hey, there's not like... a demon that eats PA Forum admins, is there? I feel like I ought to know if that's the case.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] regular
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • DelzhandDelzhand Coin Return Admin Registered User, Transition Team regular
    expendable wrote: »
    Delzhand wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    well yeah, he had a very understandable reason for doing that

    Hey, there's not like... a demon that eats PA Forum admins, is there? I feel like I ought to know if that's the case.

    Eh, I'm sure you'll be fine. It won't be the PA forums anymore in a few months.

    Demons are big on technicalities like that.

    If it was a devil instead of a demon I wouldn't be so worried

Sign In or Register to comment.
Penny Arcade Forums› Future State Planning Center