Future Forum/Subforum Structure Discussion

initiatefailure

My two cents leaning on an appeal to authority as a user experience designer, but structure is a later design piece that should come out of us first hammering down the core values and community we are trying to foster. Without that it’s just going to be going in circles on who thinks SE is too lawless and who thinks D&D is too gamified rules exploited by bad actors.

One activity that might help would be a priority matrix of those core values and needs, and we can bucket out what the new forum MUST have, what it SHOULD have, COULD have, and WON’T have. Then use that to guide rules, moderation, structure, and whatever else

Zonugal

Tef wrote: »

I think the consistent corrective action to all these factors is simply allow each group to have their space. A group who are broadly speaking for establishment politics, and a group who are broadly disestablishment in their outlook. I think if you structure it this way, you can be rigorous about enforcing the split; if you cannot post in one of those places without accepting the basic premise of that subforum, you will not be welcome.

So, my issue with this approach to the forum is I don't think we ought to design/port over a structure that is principally designed around the political ideology of two different groups.

If this was a community largely and predominantly about politics, sure, that'd be a primary concern.

But splitting the forums up between establishment vs disestablishment politics, when a lot of posters are showing up to talk about video games, movies, and television?

You can label the SE++ crowd as holding disestablishment politics but that type of ideology doesn't truly influence the food thread, no?

I think letting this specific aspect of the forum migration, the structure of the new forums, be hyper-dictated by the political ideologies of two parts of the forums is the wrong approach.

Zonugal

I will also offer, as a primary SE++ forumer, I think painting this discussion as one of SE++ vs D&D does a huge disservice to the other sub-forums.

I don't know exactly what message it sends to the G&T crowd but I can't imagine it feels great to be an after-thought in these discussions.

amateurhour

Zonugal wrote: »

I will also offer, as a primary SE++ forumer, I think painting this discussion as one of SE++ vs D&D does a huge disservice to the other sub-forums.

I don't know exactly what message it sends to the G&T crowd but I can't imagine it feels great to be an after-thought in these discussions.

This is a good point.

SE++ and D&D shouldn't exist as named in the new forum, it starts off already saying "hey here's a line as a reminder from the past"

Heffling

I suggest rather than focusing on serious/non-serious, that the focus be on structured versus non-structured. Let on-topicness be covered by each sub-forums specific rules, with a more topic focused sub-forum implementing on-topic rules, and the less structured section(s) forgoing such implementation.

SE++ isn't more frivolous than D&D, there is just a different expectation on how on-topic to be. This can lead to sillier threads, but it doesn't mean that SE++ doesn't also have its political discussions.

Also, as [Chat] is kind of it's own thing, I think it deserves its own sub-forum.

[Deleted User]

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Delzhand

I would definitely like a place where the

I'm stepping down
I'm stepping up
I'm jacking in
It's coming up
I,m Gary

shenanigans can happen alongside stuff like a homeowner thread or jrpg thread. If I can filter out the politics tag, even better. I know people like to categorize and organize, but I don't necessarily see that as an inherent good. What's the tangible benefit of collapsing Critical Failures (for example) in a broader "Gaming" forum? We don't pay per forum. It doesn't get as much traffic, percentage wise? So what? It's not in service of squashing beef (beef being used here just as shorthand, not to minimize the real issues at hand).

At minimum we should be considering the use patterns within sub forums. In CF we have threads for campaigns where the only participants are the players and DM. Despite being small/slow, these threads have very real value to the people in them.

Quetzi

Heffling wrote: »

I suggest rather than focusing on serious/non-serious, that the focus be on structured versus non-structured. Let on-topicness be covered by each sub-forums specific rules, with a more topic focused sub-forum implementing on-topic rules, and the less structured section(s) forgoing such implementation.

SE++ isn't more frivolous than D&D, there is just a different expectation on how on-topic to be. This can lead to sillier threads, but it doesn't mean that SE++ doesn't also have its political discussions.

Also, as [Chat] is kind of it's own thing, I think it deserves its own sub-forum.

I mean isn't that subforum SE++?

Like I know there's a cultural difference now, but isn't some of the intent of the chat forum to support things like the chat thread on a wider scale?

I think my overall structural thought would be something like this:

Politics and other serious topics - with the potential for multiple threads for the like, establishment vs disestablishment politics, whether that's having a leftist theory thread and a democratic party thread or what ever other solution we need. Obviously while arguing will happen here, I think directly framing it as a debate forum should go out the window as well, as that doesn't need to be the point.

Media and Entertainment - this would almost assuredly be split into subforums or multiple forums, but I think having a single place where people are discussing movies or video games or books or TTRPGs or whatever else would be a good move. A mix of necessary megathreads with hopefully a lot of separate threads being created for specific things.

Also roughly in here are subforums/areas for playing TTRPGs or video games or whatever together.

Just Chattin' - threads about bitching about your job, talking about how you're feeling today, posting pictures of your latest Taco Bell mistake, talking about upcoming holidays, et cetera. Also a place to make the fun goofy threads that SE does a bunch, gotta have those little guys.


Creative Endeavors - posting about arts and crafts that you've made or been involved in. I cast an extremely wide definitional net for art, so in addition to the expected fine art and writing, this would include cooking threads, woodcraft threads, fashion (the art of style), electrical crafts, and programming. Just generally a focus on creation rather than consumption, to separate it from media/entertainment (though obviously there would be some crossover).

Heffling

I just don't like the idea of locking all political discussion into a specific sub-forum, because some folks prefer a more structured discussion, and others prefer a more free form discussion. SE++ has, for example, a stickied thread on a political issue. I want to build a forum where everyone can have a comfortable place to post.

I am envisioning something like:

1) On-Topic
.....A) Entertainment
..........i) Video Games
..........ii) Movies/Television
..........iii) Everything Else (Comics, Books, music, whatever)
.....B ) God Damned Sub Forum
.....C ) Help / Advice
2) Off-Topic
.....A ) General
.....B ) Chat

Quetzi

I don't understand what the difference between Off-Topic - General and Off-Topic - Chat is there.

Heffling

Pacing, mostly. The chat thread moves quickly and typically recycles within a few days of being opened. It could also be a part of the general off-topic sub-forum. Also just to keep everything from falling into a single mega-sub forum, because off-topic is an incredibly broad scope.

Commander Zoom

With respect, may I suggest that a fast-moving Chat thread is best suited for something like a Discord, rather than a forum?

amateurhour

Na there's a bunch of us that like our chat thread and would like to keep it, but we also don't really care what subforum it gets put in.

Zonugal

Tef wrote: »

Zonugal wrote: »

Tef wrote: »

I think the consistent corrective action to all these factors is simply allow each group to have their space. A group who are broadly speaking for establishment politics, and a group who are broadly disestablishment in their outlook. I think if you structure it this way, you can be rigorous about enforcing the split; if you cannot post in one of those places without accepting the basic premise of that subforum, you will not be welcome.

So, my issue with this approach to the forum is I don't think we ought to design/port over a structure that is principally designed around the political ideology of two different groups.

If this was a community largely and predominantly about politics, sure, that'd be a primary concern.

But splitting the forums up between establishment vs disestablishment politics, when a lot of posters are showing up to talk about video games, movies, and television?

You can label the SE++ crowd as holding disestablishment politics but that type of ideology doesn't truly influence the food thread, no?

I think letting this specific aspect of the forum migration, the structure of the new forums, be hyper-dictated by the political ideologies of two parts of the forums is the wrong approach.

Oh I think we aren’t on the same wavelength here. I am talking about explicitly political subforums, which would probably cover news of the day.

I don’t think you get an arts and crafts thread or a steam thread in the politics subforum.

Oh, we're in agreement on this.

I just suspect folks are going to try to marry the establishment vs disestablishment clash with on-topic vs off-topic style, and, well, if we do that we've just recreated our current dynamic that I truly dislike.

A specific place on the new forums for politics & current events? Cool, I love it, I'm happy to sign off on that.

That same sub-forum suddenly having a thread to discuss the MCU? That's where the train gets a little wobbly for me.

HerrCron

[chat] is eternal

Also, fast moving? You flatter us.

enc0re

Announcements (1)
Videogames
In-person Games
Culture (books, movies, music)
Hobbies (art, writing, cooking, tech)
News & Politics (2)
Open Space (chat, mutual support, general silliness) (3)

(1) only mods can create threads. Also used for looking for mods, elections, club business, ...
(2) occasionally suspended (e.g. holidays). Allows duplicate thread topics (focused/meandering) where desired.
(3) must be supportive and kind to each other here.

As a "gaming club", I would hope the games subforums would eventually lead to us having synchronous activities together. A list of servers for playing multiplayer and chatting for the first. Table top games etc over Zoom, play by post, or even in-person meetups for the second. Maybe the other subforms too. I once watched The Last Castle synchronously online with a bunch of PAers (CRers?) and it was a great time!

Quetzi

I guess I don't really get the chat thread.

Like, I skim through there and see posts that could fit in a dozen different threads. And many of those posts are ignored, just eaten up by the speed of the thread.

Wouldn't it be better to post those in like, a job thread, an art history thread, a food thread, etc? I don't understand the value of having all of those merged together as a single entity, it feels like a whole lot of sound and fury.

Commander Zoom

HerrCron wrote: »

[chat] is eternal

Also, fast moving? You flatter us.

The reason we're having this conversation in the first place is that we mostly agree a certain style or mode of communication is best suited to forums, and that's a thing we want to preserve.

Chat, however ... I'm not a regular, I admit, but the few times I've poked my head in it's looked a lot like a Discord, including the part where there's a lot of people who consider it their only (sub)community. It's 2024, we have other options now; rather than continuing to hammer a forum thread into a Discord-shaped hole, why not just take that to something purpose-built for that sort of thing? (fast, ephemeral/impermanent, miss your chance and it's gone we've moved on)

EDIT: @Shivahn those are all reasons why I think it should be allowed to continue as its own thing ... but is a forum the best option, now, for it to do so?

Shivahn

Just briefly, D&D chat has its own sub(sub)culture and, by post volume, is a huge proportion of the largest subforum in the community. I am not sure what to do with that. I think forcing its denizens into general off-topic threads is unlikely to be a good solution. There is a distinct culture, as I said, and saying "SE++ currently has the same role of being off-topic" is kind of missing that - we might as well say that we could just have one off-topic thread for the whole forum, surely we don't need more than one?

(a proposal which I am not putting forth seriously, that would be a problem and obviously hugely unfair to a large group of people who enjoy an entire subforum where being on-topic is not enforced)

I think it's obviously kind of a weird edge case, being kind of the only recurring thread in the forum which also defines a subcommunity, but I think it's also worth considering how to move it to the new community without destroying it, especially because if you broke it out of D&D by post volume it would probably be the third or fourth most posted-in subforum.

zagdrob

Straightzi wrote: »

I guess I don't really get the chat thread.

Like, I skim through there and see posts that could fit in a dozen different threads. And many of those posts are ignored, just eaten up by the speed of the thread.

Wouldn't it be better to post those in like, a job thread, an art history thread, a food thread, etc? I don't understand the value of having all of those merged together as a single entity, it feels like a whole lot of sound and fury.

:shrug:

It's one of if not the most popular thread on the forums and has something like 50-100 distinct posters who participate in any iteration of it. It's fine you don't get it or don't want to participate but people who hang out there like it. It's one of the big reasons I come to the forum anymore and I'd prefer it not changed (although I could see it's location being shuffled around).

Shivahn

Commander Zoom wrote: »

HerrCron wrote: »

[chat] is eternal

Also, fast moving? You flatter us.

The reason we're having this conversation in the first place is that we mostly agree a certain style or mode of communication is best suited to forums, and that's a thing we want to preserve.

Chat, however ... I'm not a regular, I admit, but the few times I've poked my head in it's looked a lot like a Discord, including the part where there's a lot of people who consider it their only (sub)community. It's 2024, we have other options now; rather than continuing to hammer a forum thread into a Discord-shaped hole, why not just take that to something purpose-built for that sort of thing?

Chat regulars are largely uninterested in moving to Discord, or to any other non-forum format iirc. You can't teach a bunch of dinosaurs new tricks!!

(but yeah, iirc, people discussed this in chat and there is a huge dislike of any other format. Anyone who's been more active in chat probably has a better feel on this than me, but that's my recollection and also feeling, as someone who posted most in chat but haven't been around in a year and am mostly back in some force because I want to do what I can to help the larger forum survive a difficult transition)

Zonugal

I guess my perspective on the topic of the D&D [Chat] thread is that it feels like a barrier and excuse to stop one community from stepping outside of their neighborhood and into another.

And as a SE++ regular, listen, we do the exact same with our video game megathread(s).

And I think that should change.

amateurhour

Zonugal wrote: »

I guess my perspective on the topic of the D&D [Chat] thread is that it feels like a barrier and excuse to stop one community from stepping outside of their neighborhood and into another.

And as a SE++ regular, listen, we do the exact same with our video game megathread(s).

And I think that should change.

just being up front, I see SE++ with six new threads made that are just "hey whats up" and that (to me, personally) feels like a barrier and excuse, but I 100% acknowledge it's the vibe of that userbase who like to hang out daily.

That's not a vs thing, just an observation based on yours.

Quetzi

I mean, that all sounds like splitting it up would be good?

Like, I skimmed the thread and ran into a couple posts talking about things I would be interested in there, I sure wish those had been in the threads that we have about those things which I'd have been more likely to read.

amateurhour

I mean it definitely needs an overhaul. No arguments there.

Quetzi

It's also weird to me that chat is considered its own community in that like, I would have just assumed that was D&D generally as a community

Because that's how I feel about people in nearly every SE thread, it's all a part of the same thing to me

RMS Oceanic

I hang out in [chat] and frequent SE++ threads, I've never felt the barrier vibe.

furlion

I don't have much to add to the structure discussion other than the tagging and filtering system seems it can solve a lot of problems. But i do want to say that i am glad to see the schism between d&d and se explained a bit here because it finally clicked for me. So thanks for that.

Romanian My Escutcheon

Shivahn wrote: »

Commander Zoom wrote: »

HerrCron wrote: »

[chat] is eternal

Also, fast moving? You flatter us.

The reason we're having this conversation in the first place is that we mostly agree a certain style or mode of communication is best suited to forums, and that's a thing we want to preserve.

Chat, however ... I'm not a regular, I admit, but the few times I've poked my head in it's looked a lot like a Discord, including the part where there's a lot of people who consider it their only (sub)community. It's 2024, we have other options now; rather than continuing to hammer a forum thread into a Discord-shaped hole, why not just take that to something purpose-built for that sort of thing?

Chat regulars are largely uninterested in moving to Discord, or to any other non-forum format iirc. You can't teach a bunch of dinosaurs new tricks!!

(but yeah, iirc, people discussed this in chat and there is a huge dislike of any other format. Anyone who's been more active in chat probably has a better feel on this than me, but that's my recollection and also feeling, as someone who posted most in chat but haven't been around in a year and am mostly back in some force because I want to do what I can to help the larger forum survive a difficult transition)

Cannot imagine a more demonstrative example of insular bias then "We discussed this in our specific [chat] thread rather than the dedicated space for these discussions, and decided that we didn't like the format, but we're not willing to engage with the subject outside of the [chat] thread we've all agreed should stick around."

Tox

I'm very pro Keep Chat, my question is, why is dnd the only subforum allowed to have a Chat thread?

And to interrogate that further, why only one Chat thread?

And why in dnd?

If we're going to explore the structure - and I think we should to a degree that shifts focus away from dnd/se and onto all the other awesome and more usefully specific spaces we have - those feel like pertinent questions.

And I'm legitimately asking and would love to hear from the Chat'ers

Because a lot of people in a vacuum might look at Chat and go "that's just discord, go to discord" but I think that's an easy and dismissive conclusion

[Deleted User]

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zagdrob

As for Chat being a Discord instead of a forum thread, Discord is fine for some stuff but I don't think Chat would be well served moving to it.

One of the nice things about Chat is that you can drop in and if you see some interesting discussion happen can read back a page or two for context. Or, if you fall behind maybe read up on the discussion to see what everyone has been up to and was talked about. Discord is absolutely terrible for anything but the immediate discussion and while chat can fill some pages pretty quick when it gets going, a chat room just sort of moves too fast.

If PA turned the lights off today and we didn't have an alternative forum I imagine Chat would move to a Discord (I've actually stood up a 'lifeboat' Discord but am waiting to see where a few things shake out the next week or so) but we would probably lose some chatters in the transition and I don't think people would be too happy about it.

amateurhour

Tox wrote: »

I'm very pro Keep Chat, my question is, why is dnd the only subforum allowed to have a Chat thread?

And to interrogate that further, why only one Chat thread?

And why in dnd?

If we're going to explore the structure - and I think we should to a degree that shifts focus away from dnd/se and onto all the other awesome and more usefully specific spaces we have - those feel like pertinent questions.

And I'm legitimately asking and would love to hear from the Chat'ers

Because a lot of people in a vacuum might look at Chat and go "that's just discord, go to discord" but I think that's an easy and dismissive conclusion

This, it seems like the "no chat threads other than D&D" is some legacy shit. Just let anyone have a general chat.

zagdrob

amateurhour wrote: »

Tox wrote: »

I'm very pro Keep Chat, my question is, why is dnd the only subforum allowed to have a Chat thread?

And to interrogate that further, why only one Chat thread?

And why in dnd?

If we're going to explore the structure - and I think we should to a degree that shifts focus away from dnd/se and onto all the other awesome and more usefully specific spaces we have - those feel like pertinent questions.

And I'm legitimately asking and would love to hear from the Chat'ers

Because a lot of people in a vacuum might look at Chat and go "that's just discord, go to discord" but I think that's an easy and dismissive conclusion

This, it seems like the "no chat threads other than D&D" is some legacy shit. Just let anyone have a general chat.

Yeah I mean it seems like the SE Twitter thread is basically a pseudo-chat thread already.

Might as well make it official? It does seem silly that there is only one officially blessed chat thread on the whole forum.

WiseManTobes

reVerse wrote: »

Shivahn wrote: »

Just briefly, D&D chat has its own sub(sub)culture and, by post volume, is a huge proportion of the largest subforum in the community.

When you take all off-topic discussion from one sub-forum and, instead of posting it in the already existing off-topic sub-forum, you post it all in one thread, of course that thread's going to have a high post volume.

And like 90% are 1 word replies

Kadith

one thing i haven't seen specifically called out when talking about segregating out politics talk (and if i missed it sry)

if that is the route we follow (i agree with a few of the folks who have put arguments forward for doing such personally)

it should definitely be defined in such a way that we aren't cutting off conversations revolving around media or our lives about topics that have become or later become "political"

Quetzi

zagdrob wrote: »

amateurhour wrote: »

Tox wrote: »

I'm very pro Keep Chat, my question is, why is dnd the only subforum allowed to have a Chat thread?

And to interrogate that further, why only one Chat thread?

And why in dnd?

If we're going to explore the structure - and I think we should to a degree that shifts focus away from dnd/se and onto all the other awesome and more usefully specific spaces we have - those feel like pertinent questions.

And I'm legitimately asking and would love to hear from the Chat'ers

Because a lot of people in a vacuum might look at Chat and go "that's just discord, go to discord" but I think that's an easy and dismissive conclusion

This, it seems like the "no chat threads other than D&D" is some legacy shit. Just let anyone have a general chat.

Yeah I mean it seems like the SE Twitter thread is basically a pseudo-chat thread already.

Might as well make it official? It does seem silly that there is only one officially blessed chat thread on the whole forum.

Eh, it's a thread for posting tweets and about Twitter. It definitely meanders a bit more than other SE threads but I think it comes back to that central tenet pretty regularly.

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The user and all related content has been deleted.

Tox

Kadith wrote: »

one thing i haven't seen specifically called out when talking about segregating out politics talk (and if i missed it sry)

if that is the route we follow (i agree with a few of the folks who have put arguments forward for doing such personally)

it should definitely be defined in such a way that we aren't cutting off conversations revolving around media or our lives about topics that have become or later become "political"

While I trust the Transition Team knows better, I do appreciate this being stated plainly.

Trace

If [chat] vanishes then so do a large amount of active users. I doubt I'd check in more than once a week if at all and I know others feel the same.