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Join us in the [Anime] thread to end all [Anime] threads
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You and I experience media very differently is all I can say there.
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Kraft and Frieren are discussing the Goddess and belief. Kraft says if Frieren doesn't believe in the Goddess, then he will remember Frieren's story and praise her instead. Frieren's mouth opens every so slightly, as she remembers a time when Heiter said the same thing to her. Normally when people have profound realizations, their jaws literally drop in an exaggerated fashion. In this case it's just a small mouth agape, but it communicates the same impact as a huge jaw drop.
Regarding the recent discussion on spoilers, you'll find my synopsis for MT behind this one. Light spoilers for the first few episodes just to set up the premise:
While Rudy is able to display more emotional maturity than even his parents (who are mentally 15+ years younger than him) as a former hikomori he has some serious deficiencies. A healthy dose of agoraphobia, a consequence of extreme bullying in his former life, is the first hurdle he must overcome and also the easiest. The more difficult emotional challenges he faces are all related to his views on friendship, family, and women born from his previous incel lifestyle.
While I'm still working through season 1, I think I've watched enough to form some opinions on this, and I think there's a lot of substance to talk about. If you haven't heard anything else about this anime, you may have heard that its protagonist is awful: an unsympathetic misogynist, sex offender, and a pedophile. And in many ways those are all true statements. I realize that for a lot of people that's already a hard "No!" and I wouldn't blame you for taking that stance. I nope'd out of it following a scene of explicit sexual assault against a minor, and wouldn't have returned if not for the continued urgings of a few different people whom I trust telling me to just let the scene play out. That's also a spoiler, but I think it's necessary to establish what this series is about and why it may have value despite (or even because of) its transgressive nature. Also, devoid of the context in which this scene happens I doubt I'll ruin anyone's watching experience.
The isekai genre by and large has a strong theme of wish fulfillment; usually as a result of becoming an exceptional person in the new world. The Main Character often has some sort of cheat skill or access to some form of power that allows them to break the rules of the world, sometimes literally. Even if they don't, often their very nature as mild-mannered, communally focused, rational actors (i.e. their Japanese-ness) allows them to subvert the existing social hierarchies and revolutionize the world. In either case they tend to gain power exponentially while facing a linear progression of challenges. In my experience, this tends to rob the narrative of any sense of danger and tension once the MC reaches some critical threshold.
This is not the case with Mushoku Tensei. Again, light spoilers from the early episodes follow:
Where MT does show its isekai colors is in the reincarnation aspect. The very premise of reliving one's life over again replete with the knowledge and experience hard won through the years satisfies that theme of wish-fulfillment in a way that I believe requires no explanation. However, that satisfaction can come at the cost of character growth: if the main character is leveraging their experience to solve problems, they're not encountering anything that challenges their way of thinking. Works that do challenge the fantasy of being young again are typically built on building empathy between generations (Freaky Friday) or on understanding problems that transcend age (Prelude to a Kiss), but I haven't really seen anything like that in an Isekai, and that's not the approach MT takes. Instead it sidesteps the issue by giving Rudeus lots of room to grow. And boy does he have room to grow. Spoilers below giving examples of his lecherous behavior:
Ultimately, Mushoku Tensei delivers on the isekai promise of wish fulfillment by being a show about how the incremental improvement of a growth-oriented mindset delivers large dividends over time, and that there is no sin that is beyond forgiveness. It's a slow burn where the main character becomes powerful through persistence, and thereby achieves catharsis. He acts as a catalyst to those around him not by changing the framework of society, but by changing their outlook on their own destinies. Beyond that, it's got some very good animation (especially in its fight scenes), some great voice direction, and an interesting setting that we've just started to explore. I think that we on this board specifically trend towards works where morality is portrayed in stark contrasts, and having a protagonist with such large flaws isn't generally tolerable. Or at least it's not tolerable in a setting that doesn't explicitly frame it as being intolerable. I don't know if MT will address Rudeus' misogyny fully; the narrative follows him closely, and speaks with the voice of its POV character in any given frame. This fantasy world is one where evil things can and do happen, and there isn't some karmic force to balance that out, unless one of the characters takes it upon themselves to do so. That being said I also wouldn't be surprised if the series ultimately ends up addressing each of Rudeus' faults in exacting detail until he can fully forgive himself. That could be the direction it's headed, but it's pretty early (at least in the anime). I don't know. What gives me faith is what happens in Episode 16 & 17. Heavy spoilers below:
The show takes its time with this; this is a much larger revelation than “women have feelings too.” That being said, the conflict resolves itself, again through the power of forgiveness, and moves on. This isn’t a show about singular events, but how people change gradually. It happens so slowly we often don’t notice. It often takes an outsider’s perspective to bring it to our attention.
I’m a sucker for these themes, especially as I grow older. I’m sure we’ve all looked back on aspects of our lives and felt shame at our misdeeds, whether through mistake, malaise, or maliciousness. I also think that forgiveness is a tough thing to find, or even define in our modern world with its global reach and interconnectivity. As we collectively become more aware of the full extent of how our actions and attitudes affect everyone else it becomes more and more difficult to be a “good” person. Getting a second chance at life in a world where forgiveness is readily accessible is a very attractive form of escapism. MT isn’t the only provider of that fantasy, but I’d argue that it does a much better job of engaging with those themes than most alternatives while also maintaining high production values.
In closing, Mushoku Tensei has the potential to be a truly profound anime. It remains to be seen whether it delivers on that because of its transgressive nature rather than despite it. In the meantime I’m going to continue watching it, free of embarrassment… at least in the privacy of my own home.
Yeaaaah. It always strikes me the lengths people go to in order to defend that show, and how weak the scraps rationalizing it are. Oh, the forty year old dude learned after 8 episodes that it's bad to rape 12 year olds, that's real growth and should it ever happen again, he'll think twice. At the same time, he'll continue stealing their underwear to make a perverse shrine, rating their chests, spying on them in the bath, groping them, etc. And it's all great because he's the main character and they all love the attention, as all women obviously do. As if that one particularly gross and egregious thing wasn't preceded and followed by ten thousand other gross things that are lauded. Neutral tone on men acting like this? Hardly.
*checks notes*
buys a child slave whose sole purpose will be to carve anime figurines for his friend, and at no point does he even think this or even the institution of slavery is something wrong.
Gurren Lagann movies coming to US theaters in january, tickets on sale dec 8th. Excited to finally see these.
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The lesson he learned from failing to rape a 12 year old and getting his ass kicked is tie them up before molesting them.
You'd need IMAX for the full scale of the ending.
I'll clarify one thing though: when I talk about the setting having a neutral tone, what I mean is that the framing and the narrative generally follow the MC's point of view rather than a particular theme from the author. When it doesn't, usually giving some context to events happening elsewhere in the story, the framing is typically level-wide shot and absent of any particular tone (such as the male gaze).
I honestly don't know what you're talking about here. I'm at Season 2 Episode 3 now, but I don't remember this.
I read about this before I started watching. I haven't gotten there yet, so I'll have to see where the author goes with it. But I think the authors going to have something to say about it.
Bottom line: I'm not going to defend Rudeus' actions or rationalize them. He does these things; the amount or degree to which he does them doesn't change the fact that he commits serious, transgressive acts. The series asks, "Is this kind of person, the dregs of society, deserving of a second chance and/or forgiveness? What might that look like?" I think that's a pretty interesting premise, and also thus far the series has delivered on it with some really good emotional and narrative payoffs. I also recognize that a lot of people don't want to engage in these kinds of themes in their stories, and that's fine: there's no judgement here, at least not from me. Honestly, I wasn't going to reply to any of these except that I noticed I had a few more reactions earlier today before these replies, and that tells me that people may have been scared off by them. I'll say this; if based on these comments you're expecting something more heinous than Goblin Slayer, don't. The series isn't nearly that graphic. Also, I don't want to hype it up too much either: I'm not expecting it to be as amazing as Kill La Kill. I want to be clear here: I've never committed sexual assault. But I have let down friends, felt sorry for myself following the end of a relationship, and felt shame at not living up to my own standards. This series has resonated with me and some of my experiences of isolation and rejection in a way I haven't felt before. And I think that's pretty neat and maybe worth giving a watch.
I'm going to stop you there, as my entire point is you should've stopped there, yes.
I watch all sorts of unrecommendable trash, my AniList is public, I don't give a shit. I'm also not going to discuss it here, or spend thousands of words desperately attempting to convince myself and my peers that it's totally cool to watch Onimai, and in fact everyone that didn't watch it is missing out.
You can watch and enjoy the underage rape slave anime as much as you want, you can buy the new Kenshin, you can lament the cancellation of Act-Age. If you want to bare your soul here and preach for new converts, I'm going to give it the response it deserves, which is to dunk that opinion in the garbage.
It's like you're TRYING to start a debate hahahah
And what's the actual message being given here? If instead of being disgusted by and casting out people who act like this, you give them a chance to explore their sociopathic urges, they'll find the 'correct' boundaries on their own? After a mere ten years? And the people who they assault can and should forgive them along the way? After all, some probably even like the attention! Think not of him but of his victims and what this is saying to them. Being assaulted isn't so bad. So please, spare a thought for the sexually abusive predators. They're just 40 year old kids trying to figure things out. He did some heroics, so he's earned a little sexual assault.
Oh he certainly did. From an interview with the author:
"Series author Rifujin na Magonote commented on slavery in his series on X (Twitter) on Sunday. Rifujin na Magonote wrote: "About Rudeus: He doesn't really have any feelings of hatred for slavery. He feels like, it's not necessarily the case that all slaves are universally unhappier as slaves than they were before becoming slaves. So while kidnapping is evil, he can't say with certainty that slavery itself is evil and doesn't want to impose his own sense of justice upon a culture he is unfamiliar with."
I know Gurren Lagann was technically before Trigger was a thing, but didn't Trigger recently get the rights to it or something? Though I suppose this theatrical run may be somehow separate from that.
Season 2 Episode 7 title is "The Kidnapping and Confinement of Beast Girls" where he kidnaps the beast girls takes them back to his room ties them up and gropes one.
Piccolo, they’re pretty cool.
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Not good at hitting your vital organs
if you're a fan watch it asap
(LN spoilers)
which does not give me the impression that it is beating the wish-fulfillment allegations.
Well, spoilers, but he does change.
Well, I think the message is that people hurt each other in profound ways, often unintentionally, and that this trauma can take a long time to heal from. Moreover, this trauma can arrest one's mental and emotional growth, or cause that growth to happen in a negative way. Before being reborn, Rudeus is completely isolated for something like 20 years: that's going to cause a lot of mental health issues. That doesn't excuse his behavior in any way, but it does help explain it. I think that's part of the set up here: it's one thing to have a protagonist like Slime-san and have a couple of regrets regarding missed opportunities, then immediately become a paragon of rational thought and near bodhisattvas of virtue. It's a whole different narrative to start as a selfish, manipulative, misogynistic coward and work your way up to being a hero. Rudeus is rewarded fiscally for his heroics, and also socially via building a reputation for good deeds, and finally emotionally from the reliance he finds in himself and others. He's not rewarded with a free pass to do as he wishes sexually. Spoilers for episode 22:
The difference between this scene and what happened back in episode 8 is twofold: firstly that back then Eris was just an object of desire while now he's interested in her as a romantic partner. Secondly, because he is punished for it. Despite being a (fantasy world) legal adult of 15 years, Eris is still a teenager and lacks both communication skills and emotional maturity. She runs away before he wakes up the next morning, leaving a note saying "We're not well matched right now," and that she's going away. What she means by this is that she wants to become someone she feels is worthy of him (she specifically admires his dedication to developing himself as a mage and also his general intelligence), but he takes is as she's saying goodbye forever because of something he lacks. Who knows what would have happened had he abstained; maybe Eris would have delayed her departure until they could talk out their feelings calmly, maybe she wouldn't have, but in either case he wouldn't have re-inflicted this new trauma on himself.
And I'm going to highlight one last thing you said here: I want to be clear about what kind of people we're talking about. Rudeus (in his former life) is a recluse and an incel, radicalized by isolation, bullying, and whatever vices he escaped into. The correct thing to do is de-radicalize them of their views, not ostracize them further. And that is kinda what happens to Rudeus. As the people he admires show empathy and care for him and others, giving him an example of what an alternate path through life might look like, he slowly overcomes the trauma that got him to that sociopathic mindset in the first place, or at least he's on that path by the end of season 1.
That's the author commenting on the character's views on slavery. It's like saying that G.R.R. Martin thinks incest and rape and murder is okay because his characters do.
This sounds heinous, and also like a huge break in character considering what happened in season 1! At the end of S2E3 Rudeus is pretty depressed and potentially heading down a dark path. I'm going to trust that I've read the theme of this work correctly and continue along with it to see how this turns out. Something similar happened in Re:Zero didn't it, where there was a season 2 meltdown?
I wasn't on the forums in the before days, and people still talk about what actually happened in hushed whispers. I thought it was Kill La Kill that got the anime threads banned back in the day, and our views on that have certainly changed. Of course if a mod tells me this is inappropriate I'll apologize and never bring it up again.
Regardless, I can read the room, and I'll take a break after this.
Not everyone can fight like android 18.
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We were talking about how Urasawa doesn't stick the landing BUT THIS STUCK THE LANDING!!!!
The first episode is still my fav but I loved every single episode. Ya'll. Go watch. 8 episodes and done. Best adult anime I've seen in a long time.
Cos this fucking sucks. It's extremely unpleasant that this has been the conversation topic for a full page and I'd like it to stop if we possibly could?
I have something for that.