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Join us in the [Anime] thread to end all [Anime] threads

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Posts

  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Madican wrote: »
    I'm of the mind that talent is something you're born with, it's skill that comes through hard work. Talent's just a predilection towards something, a knack that can't be reproduced, but if it's not developed it's going to lose to skill.

    Yeah. Talent just means skill is easier to build up

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  • djmdjm Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Does anyone know when the english dub of Kaguya S3 will be showing up? I watched S1 and S2 with my kids and they were super excited for S3 -- but we watched the dub because it was done so well, so switching to subtitles would be a big change.

    Anzekay on
  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Talent, if its even real, and other than body size or height many of the top researchers in human performances will argue it is a pernicious myth, is completely and utterly dwarfed as a factor, into insignificance, by the sheer colossal weight of well spent training and practise.

    Not just hours, cos you can practise badly, even without realising (bad practise doesntjust mean laziness), but inevitably there will be tens of thousands of hours behind every "talented genius" you ever heard about in real life.

    And I bet most of them arent particularly happy to have all that work wooshed under the rug as "talent".

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  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    I got so mad when i was studying graphic design because i had many fellow students a: tell me i was super talented at drawing, and b: they couldnt possibly be talented at drawing.

    Fuckers, you got into the same course as i did, and you did it without having fine motor skill issues that required me to attend a special needs school as a child. Oh, and you dont have your dominant hand partially crippled by nerve damage, forcing you to become ambidextrous out of necessity to keep doing art. Talent has fuck all to do with it - stubbornness and sheer bloody minded refusal to stop has a lot more to do with why i can draw.

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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    bloody-minded stubbornness can be a talent all its own but I get what you mean

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  • arthurinscalesarthurinscales Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    334e63c6-140f-46fb-b23b-3b6d8b38665c.jpg

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  • Ark EvensongArk Evensong The NetherlandsRegistered User regular
    edited April 14
    Does anyone know when the english dub of Kaguya S3 will be showing up? I watched S1 and S2 with my kids and they were super excited for S3 -- but we watched the dub because it was done so well, so switching to subtitles would be a big change.

    No announcements yet. At all. I'm pretty sure it will come, but no clue what timeframe to look for. (S2 dub was pretty late, and I think suffered some further delays due to the pandemic. Think it started a month or two after the season was done airing. S1 dub dropped all at once a few months after the S2 dub was complete.)

    (Couldn't get into the dub myself, but I think that was mostly due to "It's different, so it sucks"-sentiment after being used to the Japanese cast rather than its actual quality.)

    Anzekay on
  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    bloody-minded stubbornness can be a talent all its own but I get what you mean

    That's kinda just using a personality characteristic as if its a genetic feature of the person and, I mean, yeah personality can be heavily influenced by genetics, but you can also completely rewrite your own personality if you really want to, so not really.

    But people use talent kind of loosely nowadays. It often just means "wow that's amazing I can't imagine how you manage to do that".


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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    I'm not so sure about completely changing your personality with enough effort. It might or might not be genetic, but I also don't think it's necessarily something people can voluntarily control and alter even if it's not genetic.
    But who knows, I'm just speculating based on an isolated data point of my own lived experience.

    Anzekay on
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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    I just looked on Netflix for the first time in a few days and learned that Tiger & Bunny of all things got a new season. It's been 11 years since the first one which makes this even more surprising.

    Anzekay on
  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Hard word and practice creates skill, talent just makes it easier to build that skill. It's also what separates "geniuses" from other skilled people, though as many anime are keen to remind people even geniuses can get overtaken by skilled people who put in the work.

    That said, I also think talent is something that helps people enjoy what they're doing more than someone without it, and may even be what gets them to try developing a skill in the first place.

    Anzekay on
  • LarsLars Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Ryoko Matoi is talented.
    Roronoa Zoro is skilled.
    Yu-Gi-oh cheats.

    Anzekay on
  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Been watching a lot of Attack on Titan lately.

    This scene is just so fucking good.

    (Spoilers for Attack on Titan Season 3, Episode 53)

    Anzekay on
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    98% of success is not talent or skill.

    It's being born with an assload of money.

    Anzekay on
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  • ElaroElaro Who am I? What do I want?Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Madican wrote: »
    Hard word and practice creates skill, talent just makes it easier to build that skill. It's also what separates "geniuses" from other skilled people, though as many anime are keen to remind people even geniuses can get overtaken by skilled people who put in the work.

    That said, I also think talent is something that helps people enjoy what they're doing more than someone without it, and may even be what gets them to try developing a skill in the first place.

    Lies and damned lies. What gives some people a "head start" or a "training multiplier" on a specific skill development is health, motivation, transferable skills and lack of false belief about the skill and your ability to develop it, in that order. I could demonstrate this, but it's late and I have to get up in the morning tomorrow.

    Anzekay on
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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Elaro wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    Hard word and practice creates skill, talent just makes it easier to build that skill. It's also what separates "geniuses" from other skilled people, though as many anime are keen to remind people even geniuses can get overtaken by skilled people who put in the work.

    That said, I also think talent is something that helps people enjoy what they're doing more than someone without it, and may even be what gets them to try developing a skill in the first place.

    Lies and damned lies. What gives some people a "head start" or a "training multiplier" on a specific skill development is health, motivation, transferable skills and lack of false belief about the skill and your ability to develop it, in that order. I could demonstrate this, but it's late and I have to get up in the morning tomorrow.

    ADHD. QED.

    (To be clear, this is an extreme example, but the idea that there are no differences arising from biology is nonsense. Not to mention plenty of other factors outside the individual's control)

    Anzekay on
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  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    I'm not so sure about completely changing your personality with enough effort. It might or might not be genetic, but I also don't think it's necessarily something people can voluntarily control and alter even if it's not genetic.
    But who knows, I'm just speculating based on an isolated data point of my own lived experience.

    It's a thing my personality lecturer told us about, showed us the evidence for, and showed us the steps you have to take to do it.

    It's very hard, obviously. And requires there to be no actual, like, things going wrong anywhere. Obviously if you have a biological problem interfering it's no longer a choice is it?

    The idea is that we aren't really as hardwired as we all think we are. We can, with persistence, great effort, and determination, change even something most of us think of as immutable.

    Brains are plastic.

    Hell, I cured my ADHD through a plasticity based neurofeedback training intervention. I couldn't do it alone, (this isn't some pure force of full bullshit) but it was changed. I no longer have ADHD. I don't score for it. I can concentrate as long as I like (well as much as any other person can), all my issues related to it are gone. I just have regular person issues now, and a lot more sensitivity and knowledge for how similar many of those are to having ADHD (such as lacking sleep).

    Like when I say hard, this ain't no "I'll tell you its possible and you'll work it out" thing. You have to know a lot about how personality works, in a lot of detail, and do a lot of structured interventions in your life, daily habits, daily thoughts, etc. This is hard core self applied CBT, nobody here is doing this just cos I told you you can. None of you know the steps to take, I might as well tell you to do open heart surgery on yourself or some shit. It's just very interesting that it is possible.

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  • ElaroElaro Who am I? What do I want?Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Elaro wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    Hard word and practice creates skill, talent just makes it easier to build that skill. It's also what separates "geniuses" from other skilled people, though as many anime are keen to remind people even geniuses can get overtaken by skilled people who put in the work.

    That said, I also think talent is something that helps people enjoy what they're doing more than someone without it, and may even be what gets them to try developing a skill in the first place.

    Lies and damned lies. What gives some people a "head start" or a "training multiplier" on a specific skill development is health, motivation, transferable skills and lack of false belief about the skill and your ability to develop it, in that order. I could demonstrate this, but it's late and I have to get up in the morning tomorrow.

    ADHD. QED.

    (To be clear, this is an extreme example, but the idea that there are no differences arising from biology is nonsense. Not to mention plenty of other factors outside the individual's control)

    Health is literally the first (and thus most important, sorry if I didn't make that clear) factor I mentioned. See bolded.

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  • FlamuFlamu 49 Gilded Disc Perceives the Sun Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Let's get in the middle of it, all proficiency comes from talent, every time someone got better at something after hard work was a coincidence.

    Anzekay on
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Elaro wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Elaro wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    Hard word and practice creates skill, talent just makes it easier to build that skill. It's also what separates "geniuses" from other skilled people, though as many anime are keen to remind people even geniuses can get overtaken by skilled people who put in the work.

    That said, I also think talent is something that helps people enjoy what they're doing more than someone without it, and may even be what gets them to try developing a skill in the first place.

    Lies and damned lies. What gives some people a "head start" or a "training multiplier" on a specific skill development is health, motivation, transferable skills and lack of false belief about the skill and your ability to develop it, in that order. I could demonstrate this, but it's late and I have to get up in the morning tomorrow.

    ADHD. QED.

    (To be clear, this is an extreme example, but the idea that there are no differences arising from biology is nonsense. Not to mention plenty of other factors outside the individual's control)

    Health is literally the first (and thus most important, sorry if I didn't make that clear) factor I mentioned. See bolded.

    Oh, you were including mental health in that? Does it only count if it's severe enough to warrant a diagnosis, or does any variation in mental state fall under that? (Mental health isn't some binary question of whether someone has a condition, and such)

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  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Not all mental health is outside of the users complete control. Many successful interventions are about breaking down the sufferers own barriers. Obviously many are biological problems, but not all are, and interventions can often still help produce a level of management. So like, you can't even just go "if its mental health, its biological" when saying "its more complicated" cos even that is more complicated.

    It's more complicated all the way down.

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  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Elaro wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    Hard word and practice creates skill, talent just makes it easier to build that skill. It's also what separates "geniuses" from other skilled people, though as many anime are keen to remind people even geniuses can get overtaken by skilled people who put in the work.

    That said, I also think talent is something that helps people enjoy what they're doing more than someone without it, and may even be what gets them to try developing a skill in the first place.

    Lies and damned lies. What gives some people a "head start" or a "training multiplier" on a specific skill development is health, motivation, transferable skills and lack of false belief about the skill and your ability to develop it, in that order. I could demonstrate this, but it's late and I have to get up in the morning tomorrow.

    ADHD. QED.

    (To be clear, this is an extreme example, but the idea that there are no differences arising from biology is nonsense. Not to mention plenty of other factors outside the individual's control)

    One word: hyperfocus

    Ain't nobody that can tunnel vision like someone with ADHD

    Anzekay on
  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    There is, for example, some interesting research in recidivist depression (people who keep getting depressed again after they come off the medications or other interventions) that indicates mindfulness meditation can be a powerful breaker of the negative cycle that is throwing them back down again after they get out. It's most useful specifically in cases where it keeps happening over and over. That doesn't mean all depression is curable with mindfulness meditation. Even in this case it wasn't a super strong finding, just above chance, but anything is better than nothing when you are trying to help people. It's just one more tool. But its a tool that doesn't depend on biological intervention.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Not all mental health is outside of the users complete control. Many successful interventions are about breaking down the sufferers own barriers. Obviously many are biological problems, but not all are, and interventions can often still help produce a level of management. So like, you can't even just go "if its mental health, its biological" when saying "its more complicated" cos even that is more complicated.

    It's more complicated all the way down.

    Yes, but it's an easy area for me to approach this with. Mental health has factors outside of an individual's control, and the impact of that on someone's ability to apply themselves to self-improvement covers a broad spectrum. In combination, I feel it more than suffices to disprove the idea that "there is no such thing as talent", even if my argument is more about anti-talent.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Right, but the very first statement made on this in this thread included the qualifiers of height and body size as obvious exceptions, and they aren't necessarily going to be the only ones. It's a statistical thing, so its based on averages.

    But you would be absolutely gobsmacked, for example, how much your reflexes can be improved through practice, if you ever sat down to measure that properly.

    Oh and everyone goes nuts about hyperfocus but I'm actually able to focus better on more tasks after I no longer have adhd. And since I saw both, I dunno about this whole hyperfocus thing. That's more like an inability to task switch away getting you stuck. That's how it felt to me, when I had it. I sure did hyperfocus a lot!

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Madican wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Elaro wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    Hard word and practice creates skill, talent just makes it easier to build that skill. It's also what separates "geniuses" from other skilled people, though as many anime are keen to remind people even geniuses can get overtaken by skilled people who put in the work.

    That said, I also think talent is something that helps people enjoy what they're doing more than someone without it, and may even be what gets them to try developing a skill in the first place.

    Lies and damned lies. What gives some people a "head start" or a "training multiplier" on a specific skill development is health, motivation, transferable skills and lack of false belief about the skill and your ability to develop it, in that order. I could demonstrate this, but it's late and I have to get up in the morning tomorrow.

    ADHD. QED.

    (To be clear, this is an extreme example, but the idea that there are no differences arising from biology is nonsense. Not to mention plenty of other factors outside the individual's control)

    One word: hyperfocus

    Ain't nobody that can tunnel vision like someone with ADHD

    Yeah, I wasn't 100% sure about that, but ADHD kind of cuts both ways on it.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    I also can't fully compare though, as I went through a lot of early childhood, teenage, and early adult development, so my brain is probably still setup like someone with ADHD, and now I suddenly don't have it. I've been noticing more and more changes occuring as time goes on, personality wise, focus wise, etc. But I can still switch effortlessly from topic to topic. I don't really like to self diagnose, but I'd be very surprised if my brain didn't have a lot of random connections between various things (concepts, ideas) as a result of the erratic method of development I likely went through.

    My handwriting is also still absolutely awful. :) As in its just messy printing. I've never tried to fix it. I probably could if I tried, it's just not a big priority.

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  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    sometimes ADHD does fade in adulthood, lucky you

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  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    sometimes ADHD does fade in adulthood, lucky you

    "Growing out" of adhd isn't really a thing in most cases. Certainly not if you still have it as an older adult.

    It was proper neurofeedback training, that I did around 3 years ago (I'm 40), after suffering for years with no diminishment of symptoms since childhood (if anything they'd been getting worse), and after training for 3 sessions a week for about six months my condition improved to no symptoms gradually and consistently over that time.

    Claiming it just faded is a bit like saying people reach peak strength as they get older and that's why you can run a marathon now.

    It's a real thing. It sadly doesn't work for all types of adhd, or for every patient, but it did for me, and extremely successfully.

    It's a new treatment, but it shows a lot of promise. Just like every treatment for a complicated condition, its best used as a complement, but if you know anyone with ADHD, I would thoroughly recommend having a look into it. If it helps, it helps really well, in a way that medication or behavioral therapy simply can't. I think it's worth a go.

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  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    The science of inbuilt nature vs nurture and such changes every five months.

    Anyone who sells you on some hard science probably hasn't read the latest peer review that disproves whatever it is. Weirdly enough people are really bad at understanding people. Even scientifically.

    As for talent, I think it's pretty obvious that such a concept exists. You have seven year olds that can do the egg drop physics experiment who haven't taken any sorts of classes that would help with that. While others can't even put together a Lego set. Hell a lot of adults can't do it.

    It's not some insurmountable difference, it's simply a difference in the way people observe, process and store data. That seven year old wasn't some kind of math genius, they just saw someone catch a mug with their foot one time and then played with some rubber bands to understand why the glass didn't break. Which leads to being able to chuck an egg off a roof in a cage of qtips and rubber bands and it not breaking.

    I think it's pretty important to realize everyone sees the world a little different. It isn't always useful to tell people they just have to try harder. It often might just be a bad approach that doesn't mesh with how they function. You can eventually just brute force it but you aren't going to get the same kind of returns.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Purely "trying harder" is meaningless, as I said.
    It has to be good quality practice, which naturally takes into account any individual circumstances, best learning, personality type, coach quality and information available if relevant, and so on. You can try as hard as you like but if you aren't practicing well, for you, you go nowhere.

    I didn't say there wasn't any such thing as talent conclusively, its just that if there are, its absolutely dwarfed as a factor by good quality training. That finding is extremely robust and goes back decades. So Ericsson and colleagues, who have been in the field for a long time at the forefront of this research, he's a bit gungho about thinking its mostly not real, or even if it is, it doesn't matter anywhere near as much as people think. And that's all I said. Some of them don't think it is real. I didn't say, myself, it isn't real. I'm not sure if I really believe everything he likes to put down (he's a bit too certain for me), but I do think skill is way more is explainable by factors other than talent than we, as a culture, hell across many cultures, believe it is. Which isn't exactly an earth shattering surprise if it was the case. Humans turn out to be bad at casually figuring out how other humans work, news at 11. You know what we are good at? Telling little stories as explanations. Talent is a great story. That makes me distrust it more than anything else, how neat a story it is.

    As an example of how to interpret this, your examples of the egg drop physics experiment vs the lego set, I'm willing to sit here and say if they had proper courses and training in how to do a lego set, and the motivation to sit there and do that, most of them would be able to eventually learn to do it proficiently. And ditto for the egg drop physics test. The idea is that whatever advantage is gained in initial aptitude is lost in comparision to good training, and the advantage only gets smaller the further along that path they go.

    I'm not saying "will makes skill" that's clearly bullshit.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    I paid a lot of attention in my skill acquisition lecturers (since it applies to games) so whenever I watch an anime or read a manga and proudly proclaim x or y about talent one way or another its like I have a bunch of argumentative scientists suddenly light up in my head and tell me all the ways both sides are wrong I just want to watch my anime guys.

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  • cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    The science of inbuilt nature vs nurture and such changes every five months.
    Yeah but I bet if we give this another page or two we can get to the bottom of it.

    Anzekay on
  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    If you get me really riled up on the topic of skill acquisition I bet I could do ten ezy.

    But I wont.

    Watched Spy x Family first episode.
    It was everything I expected Anya to be. She was perfect.

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Anya's VA is doing a LOT with a little. Love the show so far.

    Anzekay on
  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    cB557 wrote: »
    The science of inbuilt nature vs nurture and such changes every five months.
    Yeah but I bet if we give this another page or two we can get to the bottom of it.

    Here's hoping you're right. Maybe then we can figure out why Shamiko is so bad at everything.

    Demon girl next door continues to be pretty amazing. I'd easily suggest anyone to watch it. Season 2 is starting off pretty strong.

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  • GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited April 14
    I didn't say there wasn't any such thing as talent conclusively, its just that if there are, its absolutely dwarfed as a factor by good quality training.
    My thought it, if the defense of talent existing is "if there are any physical/mental traits at all that are advantageous in any way, that's talent" then you might've just shot your own argument in the foot, because that is not what the generally understood meaning of talent is, nor what people were taking umbrage with at the start of this discussion.

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  • ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Miss Shachiku and the Little Baby Ghost is very cute, but I'm not sure how far they can stretch one joke. From the OP it looks like they just add more cute ghosts instead, which is definitely one way to handle it.

    Anzekay on
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  • MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    Glal wrote: »
    I didn't say there wasn't any such thing as talent conclusively, its just that if there are, its absolutely dwarfed as a factor by good quality training.
    My thought it, if the defense of talent existing is "if there are any physical/mental traits at all that are advantageous in any way, that's talent" then you might've just shot your own argument in the foot, because that is not what the generally understood meaning of talent is, nor what people were taking umbrage with at the start of this discussion.

    I didnt follow.

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  • GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    edited April 14
    I'm not really sure I want to keep the tangent going any further, but tl;dr I agree with you.

    Anzekay on
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