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Brother falling into downward spiral (and is in denial).
Romantic Undead
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Hey guys,
I'll try not to go on too long but let me know if more details are necessary.
Due to difficult circumstances, I currently live with my brother and his girlfriend, as well as a friend of theirs, in a house I am renting, with my mother as co-signer. My sister has recently moved in as well.
I was hesitant to take my brother in at first since, as much as I love him, he has a history of petty theft and irresponsibility. (He needed to move in due to the fact that he and his "crew" got evicted from their apartment).
I am in my late 20s, university educated and have a well-paying job at the Canadian federal government. I am on a good track to paying off my credit card and school debts while keeping up with food rent.
The same, however, cannot be said of my brother (or of his crew).
Our personalities clash all the time, but we avoid that problem by keeping a healthy distance from one another. I live in the basement and he and his girlfriend live upstairs and we only really run into each other in the kitchen. Lately, however, the problem has become more than on of mere personality conflict.
More and more I am noticing things "dissapearing". Food, naturally, but also razor blades, other toiletteries, t-shirts, socks, and even underwear. I spoke to my sister about this and she has noticed it too, noting especially a point where she noticed her bra in my brother and his girlfriend's room.
I decided to take some steps to minimize the "temptation" of having food stolen by buying myself a mini-fridge which would be kept in my room in the basement where I could store my perishables, imagining that that would give them the message. Apparently, it has not, as food has regularly gone missing from there as well.
Deciding something needed to be done, my sister and I held a roomate conference in the living room to address the situation. Barely after beginning, my brother piped up, saying that the "didn't need to listen to this" and that he's "sick of being accused whenever anything goes wrong." I tried to reason with him and explain how the only reason we held the meeting was to get things to work out. He refused to listen, attempted to storm off and mainly insisted that we apparently need to learn how to be less anal and more generous, like them.
Anyways, I won't go on with what happend, so I'll try and cut it short.
My brother (and his girlfriend) is a thief and a liar and, to make matters worse, is in complete denial about it. He feels his actions are completely justified since he's a humble painter and I'm "rich" (according to him) and that I'm some sort of asshole for insinuating that his taking of my things is such a big deal.
I tried to explain that the issue wasn't the monetary value of the things he's taken, but the principle of the fact that he doesn't ask, doesn't reimburse, nor does he even offer an explanation after the fact like "hey man, I took some granola bars, I'll pay you back". We have to first discover that an item is missing, and then confront him, which inevitably leads to him getting angry and telling us to back off.
I'm at my wit's end.
My brother is living with me because he failed to make it on his own. He's completely over his head in debt and creditors are chasing him all over. My mother and I have given him an opportunity to get back on his feet, with reduced rent (which he still resents having to pay) and still he fails to show any appreciation, going so far as to insist that HE'S the one who's gotten himself back on his feet everytime things went wrong.
Anyways, this is getting a bit ranty so all I'll say is, has anyone else ever had any experience with delusional, thieving relatives? How were you able to deal with them? Is there a way to get through to people who are so buried in denial about themselves and their limitations?
Any questions and/or advice would be welcomed.
Thanks.
I'll try not to go on too long but let me know if more details are necessary.
Due to difficult circumstances, I currently live with my brother and his girlfriend, as well as a friend of theirs, in a house I am renting, with my mother as co-signer. My sister has recently moved in as well.
I was hesitant to take my brother in at first since, as much as I love him, he has a history of petty theft and irresponsibility. (He needed to move in due to the fact that he and his "crew" got evicted from their apartment).
I am in my late 20s, university educated and have a well-paying job at the Canadian federal government. I am on a good track to paying off my credit card and school debts while keeping up with food rent.
The same, however, cannot be said of my brother (or of his crew).
Our personalities clash all the time, but we avoid that problem by keeping a healthy distance from one another. I live in the basement and he and his girlfriend live upstairs and we only really run into each other in the kitchen. Lately, however, the problem has become more than on of mere personality conflict.
More and more I am noticing things "dissapearing". Food, naturally, but also razor blades, other toiletteries, t-shirts, socks, and even underwear. I spoke to my sister about this and she has noticed it too, noting especially a point where she noticed her bra in my brother and his girlfriend's room.
I decided to take some steps to minimize the "temptation" of having food stolen by buying myself a mini-fridge which would be kept in my room in the basement where I could store my perishables, imagining that that would give them the message. Apparently, it has not, as food has regularly gone missing from there as well.
Deciding something needed to be done, my sister and I held a roomate conference in the living room to address the situation. Barely after beginning, my brother piped up, saying that the "didn't need to listen to this" and that he's "sick of being accused whenever anything goes wrong." I tried to reason with him and explain how the only reason we held the meeting was to get things to work out. He refused to listen, attempted to storm off and mainly insisted that we apparently need to learn how to be less anal and more generous, like them.
Anyways, I won't go on with what happend, so I'll try and cut it short.
My brother (and his girlfriend) is a thief and a liar and, to make matters worse, is in complete denial about it. He feels his actions are completely justified since he's a humble painter and I'm "rich" (according to him) and that I'm some sort of asshole for insinuating that his taking of my things is such a big deal.
I tried to explain that the issue wasn't the monetary value of the things he's taken, but the principle of the fact that he doesn't ask, doesn't reimburse, nor does he even offer an explanation after the fact like "hey man, I took some granola bars, I'll pay you back". We have to first discover that an item is missing, and then confront him, which inevitably leads to him getting angry and telling us to back off.
I'm at my wit's end.
My brother is living with me because he failed to make it on his own. He's completely over his head in debt and creditors are chasing him all over. My mother and I have given him an opportunity to get back on his feet, with reduced rent (which he still resents having to pay) and still he fails to show any appreciation, going so far as to insist that HE'S the one who's gotten himself back on his feet everytime things went wrong.
Anyways, this is getting a bit ranty so all I'll say is, has anyone else ever had any experience with delusional, thieving relatives? How were you able to deal with them? Is there a way to get through to people who are so buried in denial about themselves and their limitations?
Any questions and/or advice would be welcomed.
Thanks.
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Up their rent.
It most likely won't stop them taking shit, but it's at least a step towards showing you're serious about taking action, and you're not willing to just let him get away with everything. Like Cassandra said, he needs a wakeup call. It's great that you're giving your brother a chance and helping him get back on his feet, but don't let him take advantage of you.
That's a financial solution, but, like I stated, the problem isn't financial, it's one of principles.
I don't really care that he's taking granola bars and stuff, what I care about is the fact that he feels he's justified in rooting through my stuff and taking whatever he wants without concern.
It's just inconsiderate, and that's what I'm trying to get through to him. You can't just take people's shit.
A bit less drastic than kicking him out but something that would obviously catch him red handed-- (and since you used granola bars as an example), plant some laxatives in some of the granola bars or something that you repeatedly notice missing, let your sister know, and then when he's in the toilet for three hours on end, confront him and be like "so, not taking my shit, eh?"
It's cruel, but attention grabbing.
Its not your responsibility to be a rehabilitation clinic for a loser, family or not, and ESPECIALLY his girlfriend.
You are probably not going to make him understand that taking your stuff is wrong. There has to be consequences, but do not steal his stuff. It will justify his actions and he will probably just get angry at you. I'd say your best bet is to tell him to stop taking your stuff, or he can find his own place to live. Remember, you are being charitable to him, you have to option to not be.
Plus doing something like that could only give him ammo. "Yeah you think you're so fucking mature, you put laxatives in my food, what's wrong with you"
Yeah, I advocate restricting his access to things, put a lock on the fridge/your room (give your sister a key), block his computer from your router, take all the batteries from the remote to the teevee.
And then tell him to grow up.
This is your life, stop letting your relative ruin it. The one place someone should always feels safe and secure is in their own home.
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this sums up pretty much how I feel. My sister has already put a lock on her door, and I'm considering doing the same. The problem is that the washer and dryer can only be accessed through my room, so, if I lock it, they won't be able to access laundry.
Someone else mentioned being a "prisoner in your own home" and this, also, is a pretty good expression of what's going on. I've been recently spending more and more time at my girlfriend's place simply do to the fact that I dread going home at night, simply because every day, there seems to be more shit to deal with.
Many people (here and in Real Life) have suggested just kicking him out. Part of me agrees, but I also understand that if I do that, I'm literally dooming him to life on the street. He has less than 0 credit and no friends. Their only option would be to move in with his girlfriend's father who lives in another town an hour and a half away, meaning they would have to quit their jobs, since they can't commute that far.
I'm frustrated with what's going on, but I can't justify actually ruining what's left of his life simply because I'm irritated.
See, that would be fine, except he has nothing to take. In fact, he uses this as fuel for his argument all the time: "I wouldn't care if you took my stuff!". If I start taking his stuff (what little of it there is), it'll simply give him carte blanche to dive into my junk whenever he felt like it.
I'm not saying kick him out right away, but don't EVER think this... Period. HE is fucking up his life... You have done NOTHING but support him and help him. If he were pulling this shit with any other roommate where he wasn't on the lease, his ass would be gone before he could blink.
You are doing what you can to help him, but goddamn, his life is not yours. Do what you can for him IN SO FAR as he is not hurting YOUR life in anyway.
http://www.aemhmr.org/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=1226&cn=114
If it is a mental health issue, he's going to need some help and you'll probably have to pull in the whole family to give you a hand with all of this--if that's the case be sure to check out all of the links on that page for additional information and resources. If he's just being lazy and irresponsible, then the best thing for both of you would be to try and work out other living arrangements as soon as you possibly can because he'll keep digging in the pot as long as the pot is left within his reach.
Hope things work out for all of you--it's a shitty situation. I've been there myself with some family members, so I know what it's like.
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People like him are pretty clever when it comes to using people. He managed to convince you to take him in and support him (which is basically what you're doing), what makes you think he won't find another mark to do the same thing?
Besides, even if he can't, it's not your problem. If he hits bottom, so be it. Some people need to fall really hard and land on the street before they wake the fuck up and start acting like adults.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Then honestly... I would suggest demanding he pay for things that are missing. If he refuses, then tell him he has to or he's gone.
I mean, the simple fact is, he is not respecting your privacy or possessions at all. The problem is not the money, it's the values. Don't give up your self-respect and personal comfort in your home for this guy, family or not. It's one thing to help a family member or friend in need that is respectful, it's QUITE another to help one who is taking advantage and being a douche.
He doesn't deserve your compassion right now. I would imagine a little time on the street might shape him up to his faults... It may not let him pick himself up, but he may atleast recognize that he needs help and may come back more respectful of you.
I tried to say this in my own words, but really, this is exactly what I meant, and much clearer. This is the fucking truth.
This actually may be a start then. For one, it keeps him out of your shit, and two, if he wants to do laundry he has to either pay and do it at a laundromat, or ask you nicely to use the machines. Which, is kinda what you wanted to teach him correct?
Kinda pasive aggressive, but apparently blunt reasoning hasn't worked.
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You're not responsible for taking caring of him. He is responsible for taking care of himself. The truth is that people like him just use their dire straits to manipulate and take advantage of people, but the truth is that once you cut him off he'll probably just find another person to take advantage of. Besides all that, your current situation is never going to spur him to make any changes.
If he can't properly appreciate the favors you are doing for him, then let him start providing for himself.
But what if he doesn't? What if he hits the street and it turns him into a drug-addled bum, or worse yet, kills him? Can I live with myself if that happens?
People like him need to hit rock bottom before they bounce back. The realization of life will only happen after he loses what he's taking for granted. You and your mother are keeping him floating just high enough above the ground to keep him from being able to bounce. What he needs is to be kicked out and forced to learn how to live without handouts. That is usually unrealistic when dealing with family unfortunatly.
So the only thing you can do is take away things. Lock your and your sisters rooms to keep him out, disconnect his cable if he isn't paying the bills, etc.
It might just be that the best thing for you to do would be to leave the situation entirely.
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I would be able to, yes... But to each his own, I suppose.
What it comes down to is this: You love your brother. I love my family as well. BUT, he is NOT your responsibility. He is an adult, and he is his own responsibility.
If he ever REALLY wants your help, and doesn't just want to mooch and steal, then, of course, you help him. I would. But if he goes back to mooching and stealing, he's back out the door.
If something bad happened to him, then all that would say to me is, he was so far beyond helping that all he was going to do HAD he stayed was drag me down with him. Because most people would hit bottom and finally come crawling back for genuine help.
People don't make it that far down without fucking themselves up big time along the way.
He made the choice to become a painter instead of getting a better job.
He made the choice to steal food from you.
He made the choice to get belligerent like a spoiled child when you confronted him about it.
If you kick him out:
He has the choice to clean his shit up.
He has the choice to get a job.
If he ends up on the street:
He has the choice to live in a homeless shelter as opposed to sleeping on the sidewalk.
He has the choice to get on the dole as opposed to going hungry.
He has the choice to stay sober as opposed to using drugs.
See a pattern here?
You're not responsible for the long line of bad choices this guy is making, and may make in the future. It's his responsibility and his alone. You've given him ample opportunity for him to clean up his act and has he availed himself of it? No. He's chosen to act like a petulant five-year-old. That's not your fault.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
What if you throw him on the streets and he just starts this same relationship with some other benefactor? Won't you feel relieved that at least it's not you any more?
I've personally known people like this, and while yes they are fuck-ups, it's mainly because other people allow them to be fuck-ups. Once they actually have to supply for themselves, you'd be surprised what type of solutions they can find upon. And if he gets in trouble with the law, you really shouldn't blame yourself. This is the thing -- you are not responsible for him. He is responsible for himself, and you apparently need to learn this as much as he does.
I suggest that, if he starts acting like a prick, you do too. Get angry, shout, shoot him in the face, whatever.
These are my initial and pretty instantaneous reactions to things he's said, and probably will say again if the issue is raised - people in that sort of situation (in my experience) use the same counter-defense repeatedly.
"I don't need to listen to this"
"Yes you fucking do"
Possibly physically prevent him leaving. Either he sits down and listens, or it kicks off, and you can kick the shit out of him/kick him out.
"[I'm] sick of being accused whenever anything goes wrong"
"Name one time you've been falsely accused. One time."
This'll probably throw him off, confuse him a bit.
"I wouldn't care if you took my stuff!"
"You don't have any stuff!"
Burned.
"I'm the one who's gotten back on my feet every time things went wrong"
- "Who's house is this?"
- "How much rent are you paying?"
- "How much debt are you in?"
- "So, just to clarify, you're back on your feet how"?
Confusion and burning all round.I've also noticed that people who use this repetition of excuses - when challenged in the right way - will use an excuse that is directly opposed to the original. This is because their counter arguments aren't based on fact or reason; they're grasping at whatever they can to defend themselves with.
eg.
"I'm totally capable of looking after myself!"
"So why are you in my house, eating my food, paying less rent?"
"...Hey we're family! Family are meant to look after each other!"
Make sure to point this out to them, it might not make them admit they're wrong, but it will definitely burst their bubble - probably ending in the common flight/avoision response ("I don't need this shit" *gets up and walks out*) which is when you block his ass.
This guy needs be put in his place. You might want to tone down the aggression (hell, you might want to crank it up a notch instead?) but pre-empting his responses and out arguing him until he literally has nothing left to disagree with (and breaks down, and cries) is what you should do.
Demand a bit of decency, if this fails, up the rent, if this fails, remove some of his privileges, if this fails tell his girlfriend to fuck off, if this fails, you've given him more than enough warning; tell him to fuck off.
Seriously, break him down. Break him down hardcore.
It works.
You mean well. That's important. YOU'RE not dooming him to life on the street. He's choosing life on the street.
You can look at it in a purely cold way if you like. Relationships are like safety nets. They're some work to maintain but if you ever need them then they're there to catch you.
I like having safety nets should anything ever happen.
Your brother has decided that he doesn't need any fucking safety nets, those are for pussies.
I'm intimately familiar with this situation and regardless of what you do your brother is going to resent you for doing it.
Or to put it another way:
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. It is the principal difference between a dog and a man." -Mark Twain
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Seriously. Who the fuck steals socks?
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
If he's homeless then it's his fault.
Perhaps suggest he enlists? It might do him some good and there are always jobs to be had in the armed services. I mean, he needs to get his life together and if he can't do it on his own and his family can't do it for him then I think this may be a good option for him.
But you can't force people into that sort of commitment.
I'm just saying, if you kick him out and he chooses to be homeless it's his own damn fault; not yours.
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This is the Gods truth. For some people, they can't stand on their own two feet until the saftey net is irrevocably gone. Then it's about making good choices, where usually the bad ones land you in jail (or worse). You can't be responsible for your brother. You can make him responsible for his actions. If they're stealing from you, they do not respect you, the boundries you have established, or your fellow housemates. Evict him. It will be hard for you to do, but he made his choice long ago.
Don't let him guilt trip you either, which is something he's obviously good at, and you seem especially vulnerable too.
Good luck.
So here's what you do: when he's hanging out with friends (his or yours) and the timing is right, you can joke about his clepto and mooching tendencies. This works best if you use examples from the far past, like when you were kids. Also, you have to make sure to do this without actually attacking him and can't attack him or confront him about this at any other time while you're using this method. What it does is gets his social circle to censure that behavior, make him feel a little embarassed to the point that he recognizes that this is not something that he wants to be known for. As he recognizes the behavior is not acceptable, he'll try to change it. It does take time though since it is a habit and hard to kick.
From how you describe him, it seems like he just doesn't recognize that someone else owning something precludes him from making it his own. My sister had the same problem. It wasn't something she needed to go to therapy for or anything like that. She just needed it gently brought to her attention that it wasn't the most positive of behaviors. I'm not entirely certain this will work with your brother since he's in a lot deeper than she was, but it's a definite alternative from the drama of trying to force him to change a behavior or throwing him out.
Oh, and your family needs to get off his case too while you're doing this, maybe join in on the teasing.
Never ever do this.
Unless you're a police officer, security guard, or an orderly in a mental hospital, you never ever have the right to physically prevent another adult from leaving a situation. Physically barring somebody from leaving a room is a form of abuse.
If you choose to sit somebody down for an intervention (which is basically what D90 is talking about) and the person is about to leave the intervention, make it clear that if they walk out they are never coming back. This is usually enough to stop most people from running away. If it isn't, make good on that promise - change the locks if you have to.
But don't block somebody's way out. Besides being a shitty thing to do, it can get you arrested.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
So, after they get together and she annulls her marriage, he moves out of my mom's house at the ripe age of twenty-three and gets a decent-paying job, quits his coke addiction and decides to focus on marrying her and raising his new family, as she already has a kid due to earlier shaky history with her an another fellow. On her way to returning Finding Nemo or some shitty movie like that, she turns too sharply in her pink, 92 Mitsubishi Eclipse and gets t-boned by a newer Chevrolet. Y'know, a practical tank.
I happened to be driving by whenever I see the wreckage, and you don't miss the only pink, dated import in your state. He's standing there, drenched in his own blood and she was thrown to the back of her car. Medics try to coax him into getting into the ambulance, but he refuses and says that he wants to make sure she's okay. Finally, I talk him into getting in the ambulance, and he's carried off.
That night at the hospital, she's sent away walking with her ex-husband while my brother gets about ten staples in his head(Mofo looked like the terminator). So, he goes back to his house alone and sinks into depression while the only thing she has to say is that she doesn't think my brother can support her, even though he went from $0 income to about $500 a week, and completely dropped his cocaine habit. So, he spirals into depression. Meanwhile all his friends and I are explaining to him that this being the fifth time they couldn't get it together is a sign.
So, how does he handle it? Goes to her ex-husbands house and knocks him out, thus landing him in jail for a breach of peace.
What I'm trying to get at is that there's pretty much nothing you can do whenever a relationship is involved. People will rationalize anything to make it seem like what they're doing is correct, and naturally will put space between them and a problem, utilizing anger as a decent Pink Floyd-esque wall. My brother and said woman regularly steal food from my place, and walk off clean. I never see a dime of it back.
The only real option is just to let time wear it down, or hope something drastic happens, which even then doesn't always work. The way I handle it now is pretty much immerse myself in geekdom. I spend my time reviewing/listening to music, drawing or writing whenever they're around or the subject comes up. If there's one thing I've learned, it's that your family will drive you to smoke, so get a dog so you can bitch about it to'em. Works wonders for me, but makes me doubt my mental security sometimes.
This locking doors shit is passive aggressive nonesense. It solves nothing, it just reinforces his persecution complex and makes whatever isn't locked up fair game. Also this is your house, you pay a majority of the rent right? Why limit yourself to a subsection of it while paying that majority rent?
If he falls on the street and dies there was nothing you can do. The greater good is you, think of you before him, PLACE YOURSELF BEFORE YOUR BROTHER! He's a big boy now and can take of his own, if he can't he was doomed to failure long before you kicked him out.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Well, we've already had that house meeting, which is what moved me to make this thread. The meeting ended poorly, with him accusing us of "ganging up" on him, followed by numerous raised voices and tears all around. Needless to say, my sister and I have agreed that if we don't see a DRASTIC improvement, then it's over. The problem is, I might have to go over my Mother's head since she'll do mostly anything to prevent her "baby" from being kicked out to the curb.