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Here's my problem with the videogame legislation...

2»

Posts

  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    we're talking about taboos in the context of fining merchants for enabling children to purchase taboo materials.

    no one is at all interested in creating fines related to speaking ill of the dead, or chewing with your mouthful, etc.

    Taboo:
    1 : forbidden to profane use or contact because of what are held to be dangerous supernatural powers
    2 a : banned on grounds of morality or taste <the subject is taboo> b : banned as constituting a risk <the area beyond is taboo, still alive with explosives -- Robert Leckie>

    I'm taking that shit literally dude; I don't care to fuck with the supernatural.

    edited for clarity.

    That's pedantic, semantic, and a straw man all rolled in to one.



    The discussion was not on taboos in general, but on things that our society deems bad enough legislate against.

    Evander on
  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Evander wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    we're talking about taboos in the context of fining merchants for enabling children to purchase taboo materials.

    no one is at all interested in creating fines related to speaking ill of the dead, or chewing with your mouthful, etc.

    Taboo:
    1 : forbidden to profane use or contact because of what are held to be dangerous supernatural powers
    2 a : banned on grounds of morality or taste <the subject is taboo> b : banned as constituting a risk <the area beyond is taboo, still alive with explosives -- Robert Leckie>

    I'm taking that shit literally dude; I don't care to fuck with the supernatural.

    edited for clarity.

    That's pedantic, semantic, and a straw man all rolled in to one.



    The discussion was not on taboos in general, but on things that our society deems bad enough legislate against.

    Irond asked for taboos not rolled up in sex, I gave one, you said it wasn't taboo. You're saying that my taboo is not taboo is incorrect, and the use of it being taboo only if a law should be passed to stop it was not known as a qualifier.

    That this in no has anything to do with the original discussion of the thread, you are correct. I think?

    Capt Howdy on
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  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited June 2007
    It goes to the question of whether the tendency to conflate violence and sex is tied to the fact that both are restricted media and/ or "taboo". This is germane because it's often presented as justification for looser regulations as regards pornography, though this is the first time I've heard it used in the context of justifying looser standards as regards graphic violence.

    Irond Will on
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  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Porno falls under obscenity laws(which is still bullshit). Banning games for any age range based on content has been ruled time and time again as a violation of the first amendment. I have more, but I have to work now. In short it's a bad idea that would horribly cripple the industry.

    Like the porn industry is crippled, right?

    And since you bring it up, aside from philosophical objections, who is really unhappy with the way porn is handled in our society? It's free on the internet. It's available in convenience stores - does anyone have a problem with it being in dark plastic wrap or behind the counter? I don't. You can get it on pay per view. There are stores that specialize in nothing but porn. You can order it in the mail.

    I mean, what is the disatisfaction here?

    I fail to see the brass tacks pragmatic problem.

    There is a one major difference. Look at the budget and staff involved in a porno. Then look at the budget and staff involved in a videogame.

    Porn can succeed where other forms of media cannot (say, in places not easily accessible). If you could only buy M-rated games wrapped in black plastic behind the counter in specialty stores, you can pretty much guarantee we'd never seen big budget M-rated titles again...there'd simply be too little profit in it, and it'd be too hard to market.

    edit: Basically, I think the ratings system works great as is. It's easy to understand, should be easy to enforce (checkin ID for M-rated games), and that's that. I see no reason to change it from what it is right now, because I believe that system works great.

    If we're trying to figure out why so many kids are playing games meant for adults, it should be clear who is to blame for this. I'll give you a hint, it's largely *NOT* the retailers.

    Vincent Grayson on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Look at the budget and staff involved in a porno. Then look at the budget and staff involved in a videogame.

    I'm curious what you are getting at here. Both varry widely, from a few people in a garage, to a large studio producton.

    Evander on
  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2007
    I don't believe anyone is talking about wrapping them in plastic. I believe the suggestion is to fine retailers for selling them to minors.

    Shinto on
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Evander wrote: »
    Look at the budget and staff involved in a porno. Then look at the budget and staff involved in a videogame.

    I'm curious what you are getting at here. Both varry widely, from a few people in a garage, to a large studio producton.

    None the less, while both are multibillion dollar industries, I'd wager the average budget (especially when it comes to marketing) is *MUCH* higher for videogames than porn. Investors/publishers are not likely to grant developers millions to make blockbuster titles that they are forbidden to sell or market anywhere children might view them.

    Shinto: I agree, fining the retailers is the appropriate method, and should be easy to enforce via contracts with the ESRB (I believe this is largely how it works with the MPAA and theaters, no?)

    Vincent Grayson on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Evander wrote: »
    Look at the budget and staff involved in a porno. Then look at the budget and staff involved in a videogame.

    I'm curious what you are getting at here. Both varry widely, from a few people in a garage, to a large studio producton.

    None the less, while both are multibillion dollar industries, I'd wager the average budget (especially when it comes to marketing) is *MUCH* higher for videogames than porn. Investors/publishers are not likely to grant developers millions to make blockbuster titles that they are forbidden to sell or market anywhere children might view them.

    I'm not sure if the difference is really as big as you think it is.

    For every video game that comes out with a giant budget, there are plenty of other titles that little money at all was spent on.

    Evander on
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    MrIamMe wrote: »
    <snip> computer games are something for kids so, when a game comes along with adult content, the immediate response is "Look what they're giving to your kids!"

    My mother is like this. Also with anime. She was staying with me and I was watching the last episode of Evangelion - not the movies, the series.

    She was really upset that this was the kind of thing shown to kids - and I was like "Mum, this show is for adults" and should couldnt understand - cartoon = kids.

    Same with games.

    I don't want to derail this, but anime in Japan is almost universally intended for junior high kids and down. If your in high school or higher and watch it your more in the nerd/geek crowd. Anyway as others have said I don't really see a problem with it overall if a book, video game, movie is considered to be to violent or whatever other criteria you want to use then restrict the age that can buy it and if parents feel that their kid is mature enough they can buy it for him.

    khain on
  • Alchemist449Alchemist449 Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I'm paranoid. If I can't vent on the interweb where can I? Oh and I think most of that paranoia was just the 3 hours of sleep i had the night before finally burning out.

    Alchemist449 on
  • D90D90 Registered User
    edited June 2007
    khain wrote: »
    MrIamMe wrote: »
    <snip> computer games are something for kids so, when a game comes along with adult content, the immediate response is "Look what they're giving to your kids!"

    My mother is like this. Also with anime. She was staying with me and I was watching the last episode of Evangelion - not the movies, the series.

    She was really upset that this was the kind of thing shown to kids - and I was like "Mum, this show is for adults" and should couldnt understand - cartoon = kids.

    Same with games.

    I don't want to derail this, but anime in Japan is almost universally intended for
    junior high kids and down. If your in high school or higher and watch it your more in the nerd/geek crowd. Anyway as others have said I don't really see a problem with it overall if a book, video game, movie is considered to be to violent or whatever other criteria you want to use then restrict the age that can buy it and if parents feel that their kid is mature enough they can buy it for him.

    Are you sure that argument is correct? I was under the impression that "reading manga on a train in japan is as common as reading a book on the train in the West". Obviously, that example uses manga, but I assume the attitude would carry over?

    Anyway, to be fair, almost all games are intended for teenagers and up.
    Seeing as the majority of releases at the moment are shooters of some variety I would say that parents assumptions that video games are for children is completely wrong, and could probably be proven by factual evidence (statistics, etc.)

    D90 on
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    D90 wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Anyway, to be fair, almost all games are intended for teenagers and up.
    Seeing as the majority of releases at the moment are shooters of some variety I would say that parents assumptions that video games are for children is completely wrong, and could probably be proven by factual evidence (statistics, etc.)

    The vast vast majority of games are rated T, I know that for sure. I think the next most common rating is E. I'll look up the stats for you.

    Æthelred on
    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    Capt Howdy on
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  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.

    Æthelred on
    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
  • imbalancedimbalanced Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.

    Then you haven't read Chuck Palahniuk's (writer of Fight Club) short story "Guts." Ugh.
    http://www.seizureandy.com/stuff/guts.html

    imbalanced on
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  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.

    Some books get pretty graphic; I made the mistake of reading a few pages of Anne Rice's son's stuff, talk about GRAPHIC. Not that her stuff was any less disturbing.

    Capt Howdy on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.

    Some books get pretty graphic; I made the mistake of reading a few pages of Anne Rice's son's stuff, talk about GRAPHIC. Not that her stuff was any less disturbing.
    What's wrong with homoerotic hemophilic vampires?

    Fencingsax on
    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Æthelred wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.

    Some books get pretty graphic; I made the mistake of reading a few pages of Anne Rice's son's stuff, talk about GRAPHIC. Not that her stuff was any less disturbing.
    What's wrong with homoerotic hemophilic vampires?

    Ummm, nothing... I guess. I guess there is nothing wrong with homosexual sex with anatomically correct statues either, especially when described in great (eewwww) bloody detail.

    I :| guess.

    Capt Howdy on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.

    Some books get pretty graphic; I made the mistake of reading a few pages of Anne Rice's son's stuff, talk about GRAPHIC. Not that her stuff was any less disturbing.
    What's wrong with homoerotic hemophilic vampires?

    Ummm, nothing... I guess. I guess there is nothing wrong with homosexual sex with anatomically correct statues either, especially when described in great (eewwww) bloody detail.

    I :| guess.
    ...I was being facetious.

    Fencingsax on
    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.

    Some books get pretty graphic; I made the mistake of reading a few pages of Anne Rice's son's stuff, talk about GRAPHIC. Not that her stuff was any less disturbing.
    What's wrong with homoerotic hemophilic vampires?

    Ummm, nothing... I guess. I guess there is nothing wrong with homosexual sex with anatomically correct statues either, especially when described in great (eewwww) bloody detail.

    I :| guess.
    ...I was being facetious.

    I was playing along. Wait, are you playing along.

    We seriously need tags for this sort of thing.

    Capt Howdy on
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  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    D90 wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    MrIamMe wrote: »
    <snip> computer games are something for kids so, when a game comes along with adult content, the immediate response is "Look what they're giving to your kids!"

    My mother is like this. Also with anime. She was staying with me and I was watching the last episode of Evangelion - not the movies, the series.

    She was really upset that this was the kind of thing shown to kids - and I was like "Mum, this show is for adults" and should couldnt understand - cartoon = kids.

    Same with games.

    I don't want to derail this, but anime in Japan is almost universally intended for
    junior high kids and down. If your in high school or higher and watch it your more in the nerd/geek crowd. Anyway as others have said I don't really see a problem with it overall if a book, video game, movie is considered to be to violent or whatever other criteria you want to use then restrict the age that can buy it and if parents feel that their kid is mature enough they can buy it for him.

    Are you sure that argument is correct? I was under the impression that "reading manga on a train in japan is as common as reading a book on the train in the West". Obviously, that example uses manga, but I assume the attitude would carry over?

    Its weird, but the attitude actually doesn't carry over. Manga is pretty much common among all ages, where anime is for kids. Makes absolutely no sense to me, but thats how it is.

    khain on
  • YodaTunaYodaTuna Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.

    Well let's take it the next step then, why can a kid go into Best Buy and purchase the movie American Psycho without the store getting fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined(assuming the law is passed).

    Of course that's ignoring the fact that it's a violation of the first amendment. I assure you there isn't a single video game publisher/developer who would support this decision. It's bad for business, not because a lot of kids are buying M rated games, but because it hamstrings their creativity and further creates a stigma surrounding games, which I'm sure most of you can agree, is not something that needs to be done.

    A law like this passing may not affect you, but it does affect the industry and the developers.

    Also I'm not whining about porn being illegal to sell because it's hard to find or access anything like that, I just believe it's another violation of the first amendment.

    YodaTuna on
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.

    Well let's take it the next step then, why can a kid go into Best Buy and purchase the movie American Psycho without the store getting fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined(assuming the law is passed).

    Just because a double-standard would exist, doesn't mean the law wouldn't be the right one. I'd be happy with fines for both. Anyway, I live in the UK, so -
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    it's a violation of the first amendment

    - doesn't matter jack to me because constitutions are weird.

    Æthelred on
    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
  • YodaTunaYodaTuna Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.

    Well let's take it the next step then, why can a kid go into Best Buy and purchase the movie American Psycho without the store getting fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined(assuming the law is passed).

    Just because a double-standard would exist, doesn't mean the law wouldn't be the right one. I'd be happy with fines for both. Anyway, I live in the UK, so -
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    it's a violation of the first amendment

    - doesn't matter jack to me because constitutions are weird.

    Sucks that you're in the UK, then my arguments don't apply, but it's not my country so I really don't care what you guys do over there. Maybe you can start banning books and art next.

    YodaTuna on
  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.

    Some books get pretty graphic; I made the mistake of reading a few pages of Anne Rice's son's stuff, talk about GRAPHIC. Not that her stuff was any less disturbing.
    What's wrong with homoerotic hemophilic vampires?

    Ummm, nothing... I guess. I guess there is nothing wrong with homosexual sex with anatomically correct statues either, especially when described in great (eewwww) bloody detail.

    I :| guess.
    ...I was being facetious.

    I was playing along. Wait, are you playing along.

    We seriously need tags for this sort of thing.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_mark

    jothki on
  • SnorkSnork Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    The irony mark? Oh my god. That's better than the interrobang.

    Snork on
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.
    Ah ha ha ha ha ha.

    Sorry but if you seriously think that books won't fuck kids minds up worse then video games, you've got another thing coming.

    electricitylikesme on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Considering that the fear of the influence caused by books is still going strong since the introduction of writing...

    Heck, there's a fear of literature represented in Dante's Inferno.

    Fear of ideas in any form is forever.

    Incenjucar on
  • ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.
    Ah ha ha ha ha ha.

    Sorry but if you seriously think that books won't fuck kids minds up worse then video games, you've got another thing coming.

    I will take that bet.

    Besides, children don't read. We're safe.

    Æthelred on
    pokes: 1505 8032 8399
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2007
    Capt Howdy wrote: »
    Why is it that a 9yo can go into Borders and buy American Psycho without the store being fined, but a kid can't buy GTA without the store getting fined. (If the VG law is passed) That does seem pretty stupid. If you're going to hand out fines for selling violent content to kids, it needs to cover all violent content.

    There's a big difference between reading "and then his head was blown to bits" and seeing the visceral action on screen for yourself.

    I think you need to read American Psycho. I'm not even going to touch your assertion that books can't have the impact that videogames have because frankly I don't want leprosy.

    ViolentChemistry on
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  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Ya rly. Books are every bit as bad. However, because of a strong cross-cultural tradition of learning to read being the ticket to the middle class, reading naturally has very positive connotations, and so a kid with his nose in a book, even if that book is about incestuous murderous tentacle rape, is a "good kid" or whatever. TV and video games however, have not achieved similar cultural connotations.

    Yar on
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