Anyone who says Scientology is a religion needs to get their head out of their ass.
Its leaders have explicitly stated that it is primarily a money-making tool. Furthermore, they don't believe the shit they preach because they know it to be one huge scam, unlike followers of real religions.
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I fully support Germany's judgment on Scientology being a cult and not a religion. As for their decision to discriminate against it, I'm not so sure.
Anyone who says Scientology is a religion needs to get their head out of their ass.
Its leaders have explicitly stated that it is primarily a money-making tool. Furthermore, they don't believe the shit they preach because they know it to be one huge scam, unlike followers of real religions.
--
I fully support Germany's judgment on Scientology being a cult and not a religion. As for their decision to discriminate against it, I'm not so sure.
How do you know that the famous proponents of "real" religions aren't just using them as ways to become rich and influential? It seems to have worked for Falwell and Robertson.
like Hoz said, if that Muslim was an extremist - which all Scientologists by definition are - then you can be damn sure that he wouldn't be allowed to film at West Point.
What's an extremist? someone who actually believes what he says he believes? Tons of religious people are extremists, if that's your test. I doubt he's going to be violent, and, aside from awkward Oprah appearances, I haven't seen anything resembling a history of violence from him. Do you think Jerry Falwell would have been allowed to film at West Point? I think that, by most measures of the word, he would have been an extremist.
For anyone not totally understanding this: Germany hasn't banned Tom Cruise from entering the country, or the movie from being filmed there. They've not allowed it being filmed at military sites. The film is about the attempted assassination of Hitler in 1944, by members of the Germany military. Because Tom Cruise is a member of a cult - one which is monitored in Germany under suspicion that its activities are "directed against the free democratic order" - the Bundeswehr don't trust him to make a film about some of their officers.
The thing I thought was interesting was that they had some German MP on BBC World Service this morning and she seemed to be saying that this was more just that they don't let people film on military locations often, like apparently they wouldn't let Spielberg film at the Reichstag for Schindler's List or whatever. She did point out specifically that they were perfectly free to set up on a soundstage. I don't know how accurate that is though, since she probably wasn't directly involved.
Hm. If this is the case then it's not as much of a bullshit decision as I initially thought. The way the article phrased it made me think it was pretty much entirely because Cruise is a Scientologist.
Forget muslim extremist, I'm not even sure the we would let Spike Lee film at one of our bases. I'm pretty some one in the chain would gladly tell Michael Moore to fuck off. And for the record, I would gladly tell Tom Cruise to Fuck off and die.
There is nothing saying the US military has to let civilians on it's bases, and I'm pretty sure Germany's military reserves the same right.
1 a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object. 2 a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members. 3 something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society.
Scientology has a history of infiltrating government organizations and attempting to subvert them. They place operatives into the FBI in order to gain access to records of their critics and further their own political agenda. Germany came down on them for pulling the same stuff there.
It's not about religion, it's about Scientology being a known source of political and industrial espionage.
Reading over the thread kind of tells me that I was wrong here. I still dislike the way Scientology is regarded as "false" or "crazy" in comparison to other religions, but in this case I guess the German government's action isn't entirely indefensible.
It's a cult. He's a douche. These are valid points.
Still... come on germany, don't be like that. That's awful messed up right there. I expect more from them, of all peoples. Sure, we piss away our rights, but we do it to buy freedom. They give there's away to prevent offending people. Every time the government gains a new way to tell you no, you loose a little bit more freedom.
It's not about religion. Or the possibility of some dead people getting their feelings hurt. No the german government has one more way they are allowed to discriminate against a group of people. And this isn't keeping dirty dirty indigenous people from getting drunk and abusing their children(sexually of course, makes for great headlines), this is Hollywood they are messing with.
Ok, sooo... it's kinda trite really. A shitty movie I won't see won't be shooting on location. Fuck, the should have just said "no, sorry, Can't do it. Irreplaceable historic value and tourist money. Next!" They didn't and that is kinda wrong. Like, when a clown dies.
Among other things, Scientology had 4 programs designed to infiltrate the German government and had plans to take the German government to the UN on accusations of "Genocide." As you might guess, Germans can be a little sensitive about the word "genocide" being thrown about.
Scientology is a religion because people believe that its teachings are true. QED.
As a religion, its members by law enjoy protection from discrimination against their idiocy.
Because people believe that it's teachings are true?
Yeah, so do the members of suicide cults.
And if it isn't recognized by the government (is it?) then it doesn't get that protection.
Suicide Cults are religions too.
Religious people just don't like to admit that. It forces them to examine what makes them different in their belief in their religion. They know the answer already, "Not much".
Among other things, Scientology had 4 programs designed to infiltrate the German government and had plans to take the German government to the UN on accusations of "Genocide." As you might guess, Germans can be a little sensitive about the word "genocide" being thrown about.
That seems like a reasonable reason to discriminate.
1 a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object. 2 a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members. 3 something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society.
Scientology ticks two out of three.
umm... isn't Hubbard more or less their god? Savior anyway. Kinda popular too. I don't get how it isn't all three.
not like the lets look it up a dictionary.com gambit holds much weight in a semantic debate around here.
Religious people just don't like to admit that. It forces them to examine what makes them different in their belief in their religion. They know the answer already, "Not much".
Fair point
not like the lets look it up a dictionary.com gambit holds much weight in a semantic debate around here.
Scientology is a religion because people believe that its teachings are true. QED.
As a religion, its members by law enjoy protection from discrimination against their idiocy.
Because people believe that it's teachings are true?
Yeah, so do the members of suicide cults.
And if it isn't recognized by the government (is it?) then it doesn't get that protection.
Suicide Cults are religions too.
Religious people just don't like to admit that. It forces them to examine what makes them different in their belief in their religion. They know the answer already, "Not much".
I thought we were talking about governmental definitions.
Their justification for not allowing them to use their facilities is his religion. People would bitch endlessly if, say, an outspoken Muslim wanted to make a film and the government said "No, you can't film at these facilities, because you're a Muslim."
Granted, they should have probably focused more on the fact that he's a crazy person rather than a crazy person who adheres to a crazy religion.
But Scientology does not enjoy any legal protections as a religion and is highly controversial - especially in Germany as has been pointed out. As such, they can get away with including his religious affiliation in their complaint.
I agree that Scientology is a money making cult, but am unsure why belonging to it would effect Tom Cruises ability to accurately and seriously portray a rebel nazi.
What is it about Scientology that appeals so much to celebrities in the first place?
I imagine it's one of the few religions that doesn't say the poor are better off spiritually than the wealthy.
It also promotes the improvement of "Mental Health" for those that're already mentally healthy. People with mental problems need not apply due to being "Crazy", as L Ron Hubbard himself claims in the interview he had. Yet... They also claim to be able to cure certain mental problems like Dyslexia, which Tom Cruise has.
I agree that Scientology is a money making cult, but am unsure why belonging to it would effect Tom Cruises ability to accurately and seriously portray a rebel nazi.
When has Tom Cruise ever accurately and seriously portray anything other than Tom Cruise? Born on the 4th of July = Tom Cruise with no legs. Rain Man = Tom Cruise being an asshole to his brother. Top Gun = Tom Cruise as a cocky pilot. The dude doesn't act.
Someone explain why this is in any way justifiable. Tom Cruise is one guy out of a crew of over a hundred probably there to film this movie. He will be in his trailer all day doing God knows what to his wife and baby, come out to shoot some random scenes, then leave Germany forever. Is Germany really this afraid of someone who thinks differently than them (even if it is just a money-making cult)?
I guess this won't be too much of an issue, though, because they'll probably just make mock bases and still film in Germany.
Among other things, Scientology had 4 programs designed to infiltrate the German government and had plans to take the German government to the UN on accusations of "Genocide." As you might guess, Germans can be a little sensitive about the word "genocide" being thrown about.
Okay, if Tom Cruise is a member of an organization that has planned espionage on and infiltration of the German government, I'm going to kind of side with Germany on this one. It's a little like not allowing a confirmed Soviet spy to wander around our military bases.
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From what I read
1. The Oldest son does not want the film to happen nor is he gonna stop them because it would only draw more attention and money to Tom Cruise.
2. The government does not want someone associated to an organize group that has cases of attacking them.
3. They do not want Americans in their bases. I am guessing this is an internal issue.
Also any group of people can get together and call themselves a religion. How does the government declare them a religion and allows them rights?
Also I remember when the whole Tome Cruise is crazy-jumping-on-Oprah's sofa-talk-smack-about-people-on-meds phase, he would always have a scientology tent while shooting a movie. I do not know if this still happens since he "fired" his assistant/pr person who was his sister and Scientologist.
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Among other things, Scientology had 4 programs designed to infiltrate the German government and had plans to take the German government to the UN on accusations of "Genocide." As you might guess, Germans can be a little sensitive about the word "genocide" being thrown about.
Okay, if Tom Cruise is a member of an organization that has planned espionage on and infiltration of the German government, I'm going to kind of side with Germany on this one. It's a little like not allowing a confirmed Soviet spy to wander around our military bases.
What if its a confirmed soviet spy who believes in space emperors??!!!
Someone explain why this is in any way justifiable. Tom Cruise is one guy out of a crew of over a hundred probably there to film this movie. He will be in his trailer all day doing God knows what to his wife and baby, come out to shoot some random scenes, then leave Germany forever. Is Germany really this afraid of someone who thinks differently than them (even if it is just a money-making cult)?
It's not so much "afraid of someone who things differently than them" as much as they are unwilling to co-operate with a production that will feature someone who they consider to be a weirdo portraying an important German hero. The temporary physical presence of Tom Cruise on the set is the least of their worries.
I wish I could think of an example, but I'm sure there must be other examples of an actor being criticised for not being "suitable" to play some historical figure.
Thing is, the Germans are right. Scientology isn't a religion. It's a load of bullshit.
That comment made me laugh.
Regardless, the problem is, yes, Scientology is a religion, and it's just as bullshit filled as the rest of them, and I don't see any reason why it deserves any particular discrimination.
The difference is that when religions receive money, they take pay operating expenses and use the rest for charitable purpose.
When scientology receives money, they pay operating expenses, buy themselves boats and use the rest to extort more out of the rest of the population. Where religions promote healthy community and relationships, scientology destroys that in the pursuit of monetary gain.
The difference can be directly related to the damage the institution does to its practitioners.
Among other things, Scientology had 4 programs designed to infiltrate the German government and had plans to take the German government to the UN on accusations of "Genocide." As you might guess, Germans can be a little sensitive about the word "genocide" being thrown about.
Okay, if Tom Cruise is a member of an organization that has planned espionage on and infiltration of the German government, I'm going to kind of side with Germany on this one. It's a little like not allowing a confirmed Soviet spy to wander around our military bases.
Guilt by association? Tom Cruise never did anything to Germany, except try to bring them some money by making a movie there. You might as well say that Christians shouldn't be allowed in museums because they stole a lot of artwork during the Crusades.
Hey, Richard Attenborough never did anything to India either - but there was still a degree of controversy over having an Englishman make a film about Gandhi.
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
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Its leaders have explicitly stated that it is primarily a money-making tool. Furthermore, they don't believe the shit they preach because they know it to be one huge scam, unlike followers of real religions.
--
I fully support Germany's judgment on Scientology being a cult and not a religion. As for their decision to discriminate against it, I'm not so sure.
On the black screen
What's an extremist? someone who actually believes what he says he believes? Tons of religious people are extremists, if that's your test. I doubt he's going to be violent, and, aside from awkward Oprah appearances, I haven't seen anything resembling a history of violence from him. Do you think Jerry Falwell would have been allowed to film at West Point? I think that, by most measures of the word, he would have been an extremist.
There is nothing saying the US military has to let civilians on it's bases, and I'm pretty sure Germany's military reserves the same right.
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2 a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members.
3 something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society.
Scientology ticks two out of three.
It's not about religion, it's about Scientology being a known source of political and industrial espionage.
As a religion, its members by law enjoy protection from discrimination against their idiocy.
Because, you know... United Artists would have to ask first before receiving a (negative) answer.
Which they didn't, yet.
But I can't find any links in English.
I'll keep trying to find one.
Because people believe that it's teachings are true?
Yeah, so do the members of suicide cults.
And if it isn't recognized by the government (is it?) then it doesn't get that protection.
It's a cult. He's a douche. These are valid points.
Still... come on germany, don't be like that. That's awful messed up right there. I expect more from them, of all peoples. Sure, we piss away our rights, but we do it to buy freedom. They give there's away to prevent offending people. Every time the government gains a new way to tell you no, you loose a little bit more freedom.
It's not about religion. Or the possibility of some dead people getting their feelings hurt. No the german government has one more way they are allowed to discriminate against a group of people. And this isn't keeping dirty dirty indigenous people from getting drunk and abusing their children(sexually of course, makes for great headlines), this is Hollywood they are messing with.
Ok, sooo... it's kinda trite really. A shitty movie I won't see won't be shooting on location. Fuck, the should have just said "no, sorry, Can't do it. Irreplaceable historic value and tourist money. Next!" They didn't and that is kinda wrong. Like, when a clown dies.
Among other things, Scientology had 4 programs designed to infiltrate the German government and had plans to take the German government to the UN on accusations of "Genocide." As you might guess, Germans can be a little sensitive about the word "genocide" being thrown about.
Suicide cults are also religions. I'm not sure I see your point.
I don't see why any religion deserves exceptional protection.
Suicide Cults are religions too.
Religious people just don't like to admit that. It forces them to examine what makes them different in their belief in their religion. They know the answer already, "Not much".
That seems like a reasonable reason to discriminate.
umm... isn't Hubbard more or less their god? Savior anyway. Kinda popular too. I don't get how it isn't all three.
not like the lets look it up a dictionary.com gambit holds much weight in a semantic debate around here.
Fair point
Well Tarranon did ask
I thought we were talking about governmental definitions.
On the black screen
But Scientology does not enjoy any legal protections as a religion and is highly controversial - especially in Germany as has been pointed out. As such, they can get away with including his religious affiliation in their complaint.
I imagine it's one of the few religions that doesn't say the poor are better off spiritually than the wealthy.
Because the more you pay, the more magical secrets you get
It also promotes the improvement of "Mental Health" for those that're already mentally healthy. People with mental problems need not apply due to being "Crazy", as L Ron Hubbard himself claims in the interview he had. Yet... They also claim to be able to cure certain mental problems like Dyslexia, which Tom Cruise has.
When has Tom Cruise ever accurately and seriously portray anything other than Tom Cruise? Born on the 4th of July = Tom Cruise with no legs. Rain Man = Tom Cruise being an asshole to his brother. Top Gun = Tom Cruise as a cocky pilot. The dude doesn't act.
Gary Oldman FUCKING ACTS!
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I guess this won't be too much of an issue, though, because they'll probably just make mock bases and still film in Germany.
Okay, if Tom Cruise is a member of an organization that has planned espionage on and infiltration of the German government, I'm going to kind of side with Germany on this one. It's a little like not allowing a confirmed Soviet spy to wander around our military bases.
1. The Oldest son does not want the film to happen nor is he gonna stop them because it would only draw more attention and money to Tom Cruise.
2. The government does not want someone associated to an organize group that has cases of attacking them.
3. They do not want Americans in their bases. I am guessing this is an internal issue.
Also any group of people can get together and call themselves a religion. How does the government declare them a religion and allows them rights?
Also I remember when the whole Tome Cruise is crazy-jumping-on-Oprah's sofa-talk-smack-about-people-on-meds phase, he would always have a scientology tent while shooting a movie. I do not know if this still happens since he "fired" his assistant/pr person who was his sister and Scientologist.
― Dr. Seuss, Oh, the Places You'll Go!
What if its a confirmed soviet spy who believes in space emperors??!!!
I wish I could think of an example, but I'm sure there must be other examples of an actor being criticised for not being "suitable" to play some historical figure.
No, wait...
The difference is that when religions receive money, they take pay operating expenses and use the rest for charitable purpose.
When scientology receives money, they pay operating expenses, buy themselves boats and use the rest to extort more out of the rest of the population. Where religions promote healthy community and relationships, scientology destroys that in the pursuit of monetary gain.
The difference can be directly related to the damage the institution does to its practitioners.
Guilt by association? Tom Cruise never did anything to Germany, except try to bring them some money by making a movie there. You might as well say that Christians shouldn't be allowed in museums because they stole a lot of artwork during the Crusades.
LOL