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Filming of Tom Cruise movie banned in Germany
Posts
edit: Looking back on this page I've directly responded to one post from each of you. Whats the problem?
Hell the US miltary has denied permits and support to movies they don't think makes the miltary look good.
Not on the basis of the actor's religion. No, my analogy is perfect. You can refuse service to someone for any reason(even if its a stupid reason). However, you CANNOT BY LAW refuse service to someone because you don't like their religion. Germany cited Cruises scientology as the reason; nothing else.
In the US not being discriminated agianst based on religion, race and such is a RIGHT guarenteed by law. your relgion and such do not give you special rights above and beyond everyone else. Similar rights exist in Germany.
I'm pretty sure neither is illegal. You can deny service to pretty much anyone for any reason. There might be a civil action and state laws to complicate a simple answer, though.
You cannot discriminate on the basis of race or religion.
You have no legal right to be served in a restaurant. You may be refused for any reason at all. Unless that reason is because of your race or your religion. Tom Cruise is not owed the right by Germany to film on their territory, but it is unlawful for them to deny him on the basis of his religion, which they expressly did. The analogy is solid, stop attacking it already.
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Dangerous cults are religions too, no matter how much Germany may not want it to be. So are religious-analogues, such as atheism. That Germany is wrong in its classification is part of my assertion.
It has been stated a hundred times but you don't seem to get it.
Here in Germany we don't recognize Scientology as a religion.
We see them as what they are. A criminal organisation trying to disguise themselves as a religion.
So we don't cooperate with them and keep their members of our nations federal ground.
Just because you Americans let every lunatic do whatever the hell they want because they claim it's their 'faith' doesn't mean we have to do the same.
Stop going all : "But it's their right!" - No. No, it isn't. Atleast not here.
Your laws are not our laws.
pleasepaypreacher.net
That the Church of Scientology has ridiculous teachings, makes a lot of money and is subverting governments isn't a unique characteristic that makes Scientology not a religion. Actually, its its defining similarity.
We both have laws that protect against the discrimination of religion. If we can agree that Scientology is a religion albiet slightly stupider than average, we must agree that Germany is wrong to deny Tom Cruise access to the movie set on the basis of his religion.
edit: Its members believe, really, truely, believe that Scientology is true. It has no evidence to support it, just a lot of evidence to contradict it. They believe it anyway. Therefore, religion.
pleasepaypreacher.net
We don't agree that they're slightly "stupider" than average. They lie to their members, use technology that has no proven effect to convince them that they have problems, award them monetarily for bringing in new members, encourage the members to sever contacts with anyone in their life who does not support Scientology, and have been connected, and members charged, with bribery, blackmail, and even murder. It's a religion started by a man who was convicted of fraud, who fled prosecution in a boat crewed by half naked children, and who publicly admitted on more than one occasion that he wanted to start a religion just to make money.
They aren't just silly Christians. They're dangerous and subversive, and Germany recognizes this.
And in spite of what personal hang-ups you might have, Germany is well within their rights to deny cult members access to their facilities. If their classification of Scientology was overturned, then you might have a valid point, but it's still not America, and their rules are not the same.
Just because somebody claims something to be faith doesn't automatically make it so.
We don't have complete religious neutrality.
And, for the sake of the argument, even if it was recognized as one it would still be a highly dangerous one.
Nobody cares about how stupid Scientology is. You could worship a bucket of dog drool.
The government wouldn't give a fuck and protect your right to do so.
But if your group is known to brainwash people, commit crimes of various nature and tried to infiltrate the government than your members are kept off security sensitive federal ground.
And if you call that discrimination - Tough shit, I guess we discriminate Scientology than.
National and public security interests outweight 'religious' freedoms.
I think you are going a step too far calling the Church of Scientology organized crime, at least in a legal sense. You cannot say for the Church of Scientology anything that a modern religion hasn't already done twice.
Run Run: Discrimination by religion sounds just great until you consider that it can be used against you. As an atheist living in the reddest state in the union and the second most Mormon, if my local government had the power to screw me, they would in a second.
Ok. Scientology is a religion. Yay.
They're also a cult, which strips them of the rights that may or may not be guaranteed to religions in Germany.
There is no appreciable difference between "cult" and "religion". Cult is just a word for religion that hasn't fully mainstreamed yet. Christianity was a cult once.
There's a legal distinction in Germany, which is what we're talking about.
If there is a legal distinction between "cult" and "religion" in Germany, this is the first time anyone has said it in certain terms. Before it was just all "Germany recognizes Scientology as a corporation", which is NOT the same thing.
I understand that Germany does not recognize Scientology as a religion, but how the FUCK do they justify that. It has everything needed to classify it so, including millions of people who believe it completely. It even has all the subtle earmarks such as profitability, corruption, governmental subversion and outlandish teachings easily falsifiable by basic science.
I'm an atheist too. Hi5
You are a bit on slippery slope here.
Tom Cruise is not denied any rights at all. He is not persecuted.
Nobody is harrassing him or trying to stop him from practicing his 'faith' in any way.
He can still film the movie on public ground.
He is simply not allowed to do so on government owned facilities. Which is a privilige - not a right.
The government can deny that privilige for whatever reason they feel like.
No matter if Scientology is a religion - it is deemed dangerous and that is justification enough.
He is not entitled to any government assistance at all. Just like nobody else is.
Christianity may have been a cult once too. But no christian group has tried to spy on us within the ... well none ever has.
And that is the distinction.
Your group sticks to the civil laws and doesn't pose a threat? - Come on in.
Your group shows hostility towards our nation? - Fuck off.
Name one reason why we should cater to those that don't recognize the free democratic order?
We don't do that for nazis, we don't do it for communists and we don't do it for Scientology jsut because they say : 'but it's our faith'.
Scientology is not a bona fide organisation and does not act in the public's interrests but just tries to further it's own wealth with shady methods.
The 'faith' is an easy to see through disguise.
Germany's highest court refused to be fooled by them.
I also don't believe that "faith" is just a disguise Scientologists wear like a coat to protect themselves (and to protect themselves from what, I wonder? If its illegal, religious protecting laws won't protect them). No, they actually believe it those things, sorry to say.
They lie to their members, use technology that has no proven effect to convince them that they have problems, award them monetarily for bringing in new members, encourage the members to sever contacts with anyone in their life who does not support Scientology, and have been connected, and members charged, with bribery, blackmail, and even murder. It's a religion started by a man who was convicted of fraud, who fled prosecution in a boat crewed by half naked children, and who publicly admitted on more than one occasion that he wanted to start a religion just to make money.
You'll notice I said that a while ago, and many others have said similar things many times in this thread.
This is going great places.
You're getting hung up on the word "cult" and missing the word "dangerous". No one cares if your jihadist group is a religion or not, because either way you're still fucking terrorists.
Even if you may not like it, that is the way it works here.
As I said before, we don't have complete religious neutrality.
Just saying you are a religion does not automatically make you one here.
You have to prove that you are working in the peoples interrest.
If you do so you are considered a religion by German law with all its benefits like tax examptions.
If you don't you are at best considered a cult.
That does not mean you are denied from practicing your faith. You just don't get any extra priviliges.
Edit: Becasue I'm ever curious, can someone tell me what passes as a religious organisation in the US?
edit: If you can even demonstrate that the Church of Scientology is firstly a criminal organization we will have gotten somewhere we haven't.
It's always on the verge of being declared as a criminal organisation here. I think there were already enough examples given, as for the why.
Sadly, pretty much anything.
Well, I know that the US government actively cooses who gets tax cuts and who doesn't.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Operation Snow White was the Church of Scientology's name for a project during the 1970s to purge unfavorable records about Scientology and its founder L. Ron Hubbard. This project included a series of infiltrations and thefts from government agencies, carried out by Church members, including the single largest infiltration of the United States government in history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White -Sourced
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversy
Why would you alter your opinion? That was not the point you were arguing.
You claimed that any group of people that shared a spiritual believe should be considered a religion.
In Germany that simply is not the case. Here groups of faith have to fullfill certain criteria before they are granted priviliges.
It is a cultural difference. We simply reserve the right to judge groups of faith and make distinctions.
I mean I am an atheist like you. For me all religions are bullshit. Still they aren't 'ohlol all the same'.
And btw, the religious rights of the jihadists are actually protected in Germany, because the Islam is.
The jihadists are only a small splinter group of the whole, while Scientology in itself is corrupted up the highest levels.
edit: I think this argument will go nowhere.
Fact is : here there is a legal difference between a religion and a cult.
You think they all should be treated the same no matter what - the German government doesn't.
Their justification is the amount the group benefits the general good.
How is that any different from the Aryan Nation claiming God told them to beat up black people? Should that be protected religious rights too?
Is that a slippery slope anyone really wants to go down?
Now, if practitioners of Islam were coming out and saying that suicide bombing was a core tennet of their faith, and should be protected as such, then I think you'd have a case.