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Preferential Treatment and access to a Post-Secondary Education

2

Posts

  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Gooey wrote: »
    Too bad people see that only the top 150 in thier class get thier guaranteed admittance and decide to spend all 4 years of highschool buried in books.
    And seeing that only the top 10 people in their class get their guaranteed admittance convinces people to do what exactly?

    Oh, if only the hicks out in the country had the same drive to succeed as their city cousins, eh?
    The real problem with this is basic and secondary education, not universities. If you're not equipped to succeed academically at a high level by the time you're graduated from high school, there's not much of a chance you can just become so by just going to university. You need fundamentals, and college is the place where they finally just stop teaching you the fundamentals and dive into the real stuff.
    University isn't really that tough.

    Sure, the best and the brightest from Appalachia might not stack up against the best and the brightest from Arlington - but they're no less prepared.

    I don't know what's worse - the notion that the kids in the top-10% of their class in Nowheresville simply can't cut it, or the attitude that privileged kids should continue to be privileged because, hey, they're used to it and are somewhat better prepared.

    Andrew_Jay on
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Gooey wrote: »
    Furthermore, it doesn't take but a little common sense to understand that if there is a larger base of students there will be more competition to be at the top - the bell curve gets skewed with more people trying to get a piece of the pie. Simple mob mentality at work. If everyone tried exactly as hard as they normally would, sure it would work out fine. Too bad people see that only the top 150 in thier class get thier guaranteed admittance and decide to spend all 4 years of highschool buried in books.

    Was the .9 because of your stats class?

    Goumindong on
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  • GooeyGooey (\/)┌¶─¶┐(\/) pinch pinchRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Gooey wrote: »
    Furthermore, it doesn't take but a little common sense to understand that if there is a larger base of students there will be more competition to be at the top - the bell curve gets skewed with more people trying to get a piece of the pie. Simple mob mentality at work. If everyone tried exactly as hard as they normally would, sure it would work out fine. Too bad people see that only the top 150 in thier class get thier guaranteed admittance and decide to spend all 4 years of highschool buried in books.

    Was the .9 because of your stats class?

    I'm saying the bell curve gets skewed from mob mentality. Or did they not teach reading comprehension at WPI?

    Gooey on
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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Gooey wrote: »
    Andrew_Jay wrote: »
    Gooey wrote: »
    Finally, there aren't more spots.
    High school with 100 students - 10 guaranteed spots.
    High school with 1500 students - 150 guaranteed spots.

    ...colleges have a set number they want to admit into each class.

    And we are talking about the number of slots in the high school, because that is where the curve is, and that is where the competition is.

    The ratio of slots to students is always the same.

    Now, yes, it can reduce slots in the colleges, unless they have a specific allocation for those students, which they likely would.

    But even then, since we are assuming the 10% in the large schools would be going anyway, since you have said, the well qualified, but NOT 10% students are being denied because of the 10% students in other schools, the slot reduction would be low.

    The problem is that you think you are entitled to go the best state school, and not just a state school with those scores.

    Goumindong on
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  • GooeyGooey (\/)┌¶─¶┐(\/) pinch pinchRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Goumindong wrote: »
    And we are talking about the number of slots in the high school, because that is where the curve is, and that is where the competition is.

    No, we're not.
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Gooey wrote: »
    Why is it hard to get in? Because the spots are filled up with the 10% rule. Everyone who is in the top 10% clamors to get into one of the major 3 public uni's in Texas (UT, Texas A&M, Texas Tech - ugh) leaving no (read: few) spots left for otherwise deserving students.

    When there are more people, there are also more spots

    Under Texas law, universities cannot have allocations of spots for students admitted under the 10% rule. If you're in the top 10% you get into any state school you want, regardless.

    Gooey on
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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Gooey wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Gooey wrote: »
    Furthermore, it doesn't take but a little common sense to understand that if there is a larger base of students there will be more competition to be at the top - the bell curve gets skewed with more people trying to get a piece of the pie. Simple mob mentality at work. If everyone tried exactly as hard as they normally would, sure it would work out fine. Too bad people see that only the top 150 in thier class get thier guaranteed admittance and decide to spend all 4 years of highschool buried in books.

    Was the .9 because of your stats class?

    I'm saying the bell curve gets skewed from mob mentality. Or did they not teach reading comprehension at WPI?

    they are very short on humanities, yes. A reason why i left. But the mentality for the slots is no different than at other schools. And they did teach stats at my high school.

    Take two examples

    1500 people and 150 slots
    10 people and 1 slot.

    Where is competition more fierce? In each there are the same number slots for each student. Why is the mentality different from the larger body forcing more to compete? Shouldn't, on average, the same number of students harbor the same feelings? Yes, unless there is something fundamentally different at the large schools that is not occurring at the small schools that is independent of the size of the school. Where the schools are statistically significant there would be literally nothing but normal group deviation.

    Goumindong on
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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Gooey wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    And we are talking about the number of slots in the high school, because that is where the curve is, and that is where the competition is.

    No, we're not.

    Yes we are, Oh king of reading comprehension.

    Goumindong on
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  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited June 2007
    But Goumindong, you're missing the point. At the big schools the students have come to expect their god-given spot at university, so it's much more important to them.

    The ignorant hillbillies in Hicksville don't even know what they're missing if they don't get in the top 10% of their class, so it doesn't effect them as much.

    Andrew_Jay on
  • GooeyGooey (\/)┌¶─¶┐(\/) pinch pinchRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Gooey wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    And we are talking about the number of slots in the high school, because that is where the curve is, and that is where the competition is.

    No, we're not.

    Yes we are, Oh king of reading comprehension.

    Read again, Christ.
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Gooey wrote: »
    Why is it hard to get in? Because the spots are filled up with the 10% rule. Everyone who is in the top 10% clamors to get into one of the major 3 public uni's in Texas (UT, Texas A&M, Texas Tech - ugh) leaving no (read: few) spots left for otherwise deserving students.

    When there are more people, there are also more spots

    The only time I've ever spoken about spots is in relation to those in an entering freshman class. You responded to the point, and therefore, we're talking about spots in college. If you're going to argue like this there's no fucking point me in even posting here.
    Andrew_Jay wrote: »
    But Goumindong, you're missing the point. At the big schools the students have come to expect their god-given spot at university, so it's much more important to them.

    The ignorant hillbillies in Hicksville don't even know what they're missing if they don't get in the top 10% of their class, so it doesn't effect them as much.

    Okay, jackass. Show me where I talk about my entitlement. Furthermore, show me where I talk down to "rednecks" and "hillbillies". Add something to the discussion or stop trolling the thread.

    Edit - I read the chat. <3 <3 <3

    Gooey on
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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Gooey wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Gooey wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    And we are talking about the number of slots in the high school, because that is where the curve is, and that is where the competition is.

    No, we're not.

    Yes we are, Oh king of reading comprehension.

    Read again, Christ.
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Gooey wrote: »
    Why is it hard to get in? Because the spots are filled up with the 10% rule. Everyone who is in the top 10% clamors to get into one of the major 3 public uni's in Texas (UT, Texas A&M, Texas Tech - ugh) leaving no (read: few) spots left for otherwise deserving students.

    When there are more people, there are also more spots

    The only time I've ever spoken about spots is in relation to those in an entering freshman class. You responded to the point, and therefore, we're talking about spots in college. If you're going to argue like this there's no fucking point me in even posting here.
    Andrew_Jay wrote: »
    But Goumindong, you're missing the point. At the big schools the students have come to expect their god-given spot at university, so it's much more important to them.

    The ignorant hillbillies in Hicksville don't even know what they're missing if they don't get in the top 10% of their class, so it doesn't effect them as much.

    Okay, jackass. Show me where I talk about my entitlement. Furthermore, show me where I talk down to "rednecks" and "hillbillies". Add something to the discussion or stop trolling the thread.
    I also love how you say that the margin at a large school will be larger than that at a small school. Do you have any statistical backing to find this? Once you are over a few hundred students, the rest is going to be irrelevant to the margin. Why? Because its a statistical sample over a population significantly large taking the same percentage off the top! Unless there were outside factors somehow making the students at the large school for some reason closer in intelligence and ability than those of small schools.


    When there are more people, there are also more spots

    Goumindong on
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  • GooeyGooey (\/)┌¶─¶┐(\/) pinch pinchRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I'm not sure what your quote has to do with my post other than I haven't answered your question. Anyway, I'd love to, and the search has begun.

    Although I'd venture a statement that I'd imagine a better-funded (but not necessarily larger) school has students closer in ability/intelligence than others due to quality of education.

    Gooey on
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  • MalaysianShrewMalaysianShrew Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Jast wrote: »
    I'm kind of split, I mean I sure wouldn't mind going to some small school, being in the top 10% by taking a whole bunch of AP classes and easily passing them, then going to a state college of my choice, but on the other hand, I would hate if I was an out of state guy who worked hard to get my scores but got rejected in favor of a guy who had a 3.1 gpa but was in the top 10% of his class because of class size.

    Basically, if I was a small town high school guy, I would love it. If I was big city high school guy, or out of stater, I would hate it. North Carolina as far as I know doesn't have a 10% rule and neither does Virginia, even though Virginia state colleges have to accept at 65% of their applicants from in state if I remember correctly. May be wrong though.

    What kind of small town would you go to that brings in enough tax money to support AP classes? My girlfriend went to a small, rural school in Michigan with a graduating class of 116. She graduated with a 4.0 as Valedictorian. She managed to get into Michigan State University. 4.0 was the best you can do at her high school because there IS NO AP classes at a small school like hers. Myself, I went to a decently sized, well off high school and the top 10(not percent) of my class had over a 4.0 and got full rides to UofM and turned them down for better schools. Now, obviously the people in the top 10% of her class that didn't get into ANY college obviously weren't as smart as people who got worse grades than me at my high school. I mean, they didn't get into college, right?Me, I got a 3.4 and recieved money from Michigan Tech and ended up going to MSU, never once worrying about if I would get in. The difference between our high schools is so striking I can't help but wish we had the 10% rule in our state.

    Also, if those stupid country kids who are so unprepared for college drop out after a year and your 3.7 friend had to spend a year at CC before he took their place, how was he hurt at all? He probably saved a shit ton of money by going to CC and got the same if not better education, since the CC classes were probably much much smaller.

    MalaysianShrew on
    Never trust a big butt and a smile.
  • GooeyGooey (\/)┌¶─¶┐(\/) pinch pinchRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Also, if those stupid country kids who are so unprepared for college drop out after a year and your 3.7 friend had to spend a year at CC before he took their place, how was he hurt at all? He probably saved a shit ton of money by going to CC and got the same if not better education, since the CC classes were probably much much smaller.

    Vet schools love seeing a CC on your transcript. I'm not kidding. You try getting into a vet school.

    I like how everyone thinks I hate people from the country now.

    Gooey on
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  • FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Also, if those stupid country kids who are so unprepared for college drop out after a year and your 3.7 friend had to spend a year at CC before he took their place, how was he hurt at all? He probably saved a shit ton of money by going to CC and got the same if not better education, since the CC classes were probably much much smaller.

    Maybe because the kid who has to go to community college would have done better than the dropout hick in actual college, and now he has to waste time somewhere else where he isn't really learning. And I think you have a poor understanding of community college. It's fine to get basic credits out of the way, but you do not learn anywhere near the amount you would somewhere else. Small classes do not equal good education. Good professors do.

    FirstComradeStalin on
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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Also, if those stupid country kids who are so unprepared for college drop out after a year and your 3.7 friend had to spend a year at CC before he took their place, how was he hurt at all? He probably saved a shit ton of money by going to CC and got the same if not better education, since the CC classes were probably much much smaller.

    Maybe because the kid who has to go to community college would have done better than the dropout hick in actual college, and now he has to waste time somewhere else where he isn't really learning. And I think you have a poor understanding of community college. It's fine to get basic credits out of the way, but you do not learn anywhere near the amount you would somewhere else. Small classes do not equal good education. Good professors do.

    Small classes increase the time that a professor can spend with you, which increases the amount of interaction and learning. It is uncontroversial that low class sizes increase learning.

    At major public universities you can expect lecture sizes around 400 students. At a community college, around 30.

    If a professor at the university teaches one lecture per day, and spends 16 hours awake and in office hours, he can take only 2.4 minutes per student every day outside class time.

    At the community college the professor who spends 4 hours in his office can spend 8 minutes per student.

    So effectively the community college professor is able to teach 13 times as long per student.

    There is very little difference in quality for the professors, especially since universities typically hire professors to research and not to teach But at a community college you get 13 times the attention.

    Goumindong on
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  • MalaysianShrewMalaysianShrew Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Also, if those stupid country kids who are so unprepared for college drop out after a year and your 3.7 friend had to spend a year at CC before he took their place, how was he hurt at all? He probably saved a shit ton of money by going to CC and got the same if not better education, since the CC classes were probably much much smaller.

    Maybe because the kid who has to go to community college would have done better than the dropout hick in actual college, and now he has to waste time somewhere else where he isn't really learning. And I think you have a poor understanding of community college. It's fine to get basic credits out of the way, but you do not learn anywhere near the amount you would somewhere else. Small classes do not equal good education. Good professors do.

    What? Most public universities have obnoxious general education credits that take up most of your first two years there with classes that aren't related to your major at all. You can easily get those classes taken care of at a CC for a FRACTION of the cost. At my local CC, I've never heard of a class larger than 30. My first year at MSU I had a class that EVERYONE had to take to graduate (chem 141) and it was 500 people and they had 4 different times the class was held, so probably 2000 people took it each semester. And since most of the early classes are taught by grad students and not professors, I doubt your education is any worse at a CC. It's not like many professors care about teaching. They are there for research, not to teach some 18 year old kid introduction physics.

    MalaysianShrew on
    Never trust a big butt and a smile.
  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Also, if those stupid country kids who are so unprepared for college drop out after a year and your 3.7 friend had to spend a year at CC before he took their place, how was he hurt at all? He probably saved a shit ton of money by going to CC and got the same if not better education, since the CC classes were probably much much smaller.
    Maybe because the kid who has to go to community college would have done better than the dropout hick in actual college, and now he has to waste time somewhere else where he isn't really learning.
    MalaysianShrew makes an important point.

    The only way someone can prove to me that this 10% rule is unfair is if there is a significantly higher drop-out rate amongst the so-called "charity cases" (or "hick") and that first-year spots are being wasted.

    If the university is taking in these supposedly poorer students and yet still producing an equal number of graduates, I would declare the university a greater success than if it had accepted only the best students available in the first place. That is because in the 10% rule scenario, a far greater segment of the population has gotten an education, including many who never would have otherwise - which is the objective of a state institution.

    Goumindong wrote: »
    Small classes increase the time that a professor can spend with you, which increases the amount of interaction and learning. It is uncontroversial that low class sizes increase learning.
    Actually, it is controversial - but again off topic. In brief, large classes of 100+ students are often taught by more senior professors and experts in the field. While not true in all cases, it makes it impossible to generalise that small classes are always better.

    Andrew_Jay on
  • ShmoepongShmoepong Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I'm not seeing the larger problem here.

    An applicant can go to the College/University of whatever, then later transfer to another of their choosing. I initially didn't get accepted into James Madison University in Virginia. I applied during my sophmore year from George Mason University and was accepted.

    Does anyone know if you have to repay scholarships if you choose to attend a different university? Can applicants recieve scholarships from the new university as a transfer? These are the only problems I can see directly affecting your first choice of school.

    And in metropolitan areas, B.A.'s mean jack unless you're coming from a name brand school. IMHO, save yourself the money from the B.A. and put it towards a Masters, law or medical school.

    Shmoepong on
    I don't think I could take a class without sparring. That would be like a class without techniques. Sparring has value not only as an important (necessary) step in applying your techniques to fighting, but also because it provides a rush and feeling of elation, confidence, and joyful exhaustion that can only be matched by ... oh shit, I am describing sex again. Sorry everyone. - Epicurus
  • JastJast Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Gooey wrote: »
    Also, if those stupid country kids who are so unprepared for college drop out after a year and your 3.7 friend had to spend a year at CC before he took their place, how was he hurt at all? He probably saved a shit ton of money by going to CC and got the same if not better education, since the CC classes were probably much much smaller.

    Vet schools love seeing a CC on your transcript. I'm not kidding. You try getting into a vet school.

    I like how everyone thinks I hate people from the country now.

    Vet school? What's that, if you don't mind me asking.

    Jast on
    Jast39.png
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Jast wrote: »
    Gooey wrote: »
    Also, if those stupid country kids who are so unprepared for college drop out after a year and your 3.7 friend had to spend a year at CC before he took their place, how was he hurt at all? He probably saved a shit ton of money by going to CC and got the same if not better education, since the CC classes were probably much much smaller.

    Vet schools love seeing a CC on your transcript. I'm not kidding. You try getting into a vet school.

    I like how everyone thinks I hate people from the country now.

    Vet school? What's that, if you don't mind me asking.
    Animal doctor school. Like a Veterinarian

    Fencingsax on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Shmoepong wrote: »
    I'm not seeing the larger problem here.

    An applicant can go to the College/University of whatever, then later transfer to another of their choosing. I initially didn't get accepted into James Madison University in Virginia. I applied during my sophmore year from George Mason University and was accepted.

    Does anyone know if you have to repay scholarships if you choose to attend a different university? Can applicants recieve scholarships from the new university as a transfer? These are the only problems I can see directly affecting your first choice of school.

    And in metropolitan areas, B.A.'s mean jack unless you're coming from a name brand school. IMHO, save yourself the money from the B.A. and put it towards a Masters, law or medical school.
    You need a B.A (or Bachelor of Sciences or whatever) to do that.

    Fencingsax on
    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • ShmoepongShmoepong Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    What I meant to say was:

    The money saved by going to less prestigious university for your B.A. will be put to better use by going to a name brand school for your Masters, law or medical degree.

    My view is tainted though, DC has an abnormally large percentage of bachelor's degrees clouting our workforce.

    Shmoepong on
    I don't think I could take a class without sparring. That would be like a class without techniques. Sparring has value not only as an important (necessary) step in applying your techniques to fighting, but also because it provides a rush and feeling of elation, confidence, and joyful exhaustion that can only be matched by ... oh shit, I am describing sex again. Sorry everyone. - Epicurus
  • seasleepyseasleepy Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I'm glad someone finally got around to pointing out that it's top 10% rather than top 50 people or something.

    The other thing I think worth pointing out is that the big universities in Texas are rather desperate to increase their diversity. I love A&M, but probably at least half the people here are middle-class+ white suburbanites from DFW/Houston. The 10% rule lets them at least offer to people from different geographic, racial, and economic backgrounds the assurance that they can attend. (The racial aspect is actually generally what's brought up when people both pro and con discuss the top 10% rule here, it's widely considered to be an end-run around the supreme court decision banning consideration of race in admissions.)

    Having dealt with the geographic effect firsthand after moving from a huge, extremely well-funded school district in suburban Colorado to an okay-funded school district in a small city hours away from anything else, I'm somewhat in favor of it. I didn't change when I moved, but the resources available to me sure did.
    My school was still big enough to offer a decent slate of AP and dual credit, so I wasn't going to be hurting when it came to admissions time, but I can understand how people in the outlying small towns would feel that even state universities would be out of reach without those resources. There's such a big emphasis put on them in the recruitment/application process for larger schools, and it's difficult without them to differentiate yourself from the other people who also just have good grades and maybe some decent extracurriculars.

    seasleepy on
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  • GooeyGooey (\/)┌¶─¶┐(\/) pinch pinchRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    seasleepy wrote: »
    I love A&M, but probably at least half the people here are middle-class+ white suburbanites from DFW/Houston.

    Half? Seems kindof low - at least compared to how I remember it. It seemed like whenever the word diversity would be brought up the first response was always something along the lines of "we are a diverse campus, just not racially" or whatever. Have they finished construction on that road that runs by Northside/Fish Pond/Chem Building yet? Does the YCT still hold all those asanine rallies/protests? Man, I miss that school. The morning of my very first midterm I was late, hurrying to HECC with my nose in a book doing some last-minute review. I cut across from the MSC to HECC by Sul Ross and stumbled onto an abortion protest complete with a 30-foot tall picture of an aborted fetus. Imagine me, a bewildered freshman running late to an exam reading a book and literally being stopped in my tracks by that. Great times.

    Again, I'm not saying that giving the underprivelaged a chance at making something better of themselves is bad...I'm just questioning its merit when it's at the expense of others.

    Gooey on
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  • seasleepyseasleepy Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Gooey wrote: »
    seasleepy wrote: »
    I love A&M, but probably at least half the people here are middle-class+ white suburbanites from DFW/Houston.

    Half? Seems kindof low - at least compared to how I remember it. It seemed like whenever the word diversity would be brought up the first response was always something along the lines of "we are a diverse campus, just not racially" or whatever.
    Yeah, well, I couldn't come up with an appropriate percentage so I just lowballed it with "half".
    Have they finished construction on that road that runs by Northside/Fish Pond/Chem Building yet?
    They're actually supposed to finish it sometime this fall. There was a rather hilarious (intentionally) opinion piece in the paper decrying the loss of yet another University tradition.
    Does the YCT still hold all those asanine rallies/protests? Man, I miss that school. The morning of my very first midterm I was late, hurrying to HECC with my nose in a book doing some last-minute review. I cut across from the MSC to HECC by Sul Ross and stumbled onto an abortion protest complete with a 30-foot tall picture of an aborted fetus. Imagine me, a bewildered freshman running late to an exam reading a book and literally being stopped in my tracks by that. Great times.
    Yeah, the YCT is still retarded, and the abortion people show up a couple times a year still. (Somehow I've managed to miss them in my 7 years here, but I'm not usually running around the middle of campus during the day.)
    My sister is dating a guy who used to be in the YCT. D: (I suppose between the two of us we almost balance, my boyfriend is a liberal Chinese Canadian.)
    Again, I'm not saying that giving the underprivelaged a chance at making something better of themselves is bad...I'm just questioning its merit when it's at the expense of others.
    <shrug> I just think that the others have the opportunity already. I mean, it might suck if you are dead set on A&M or UT and you can't get in, but if you're close, you should be able to get in somewhere. (Or hell, there's always Blinn or ACC.)

    seasleepy on
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  • Marty81Marty81 Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Shmoepong wrote: »
    Does anyone know if you have to repay scholarships if you choose to attend a different university?

    No, I've never seen or heard of one that you'd have to repay if you went somewhere else.
    Can applicants recieve scholarships from the new university as a transfer?

    Yes, but such scholarships are rare, and are usually administered only on a case-by-case basis (if at all). The best scholarships are usually only offered to high school seniors (people coming directly out of high school to the university in question), because universities like to say "this year we attracted X National merit scholars and Y people with SAT scores above whatever," and I guess that transfer students don't count towards that. It makes it kind of a bitch to transfer.

    Marty81 on
  • VishNubVishNub Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    4.0 was the best you can do at her high school because there IS NO AP classes at a small school like hers.

    Also it's impossible to be better than perfect. Anything over 4.0 = grade inflation.

    VishNub on
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  • sanstodosanstodo Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    VishNub wrote: »
    4.0 was the best you can do at her high school because there IS NO AP classes at a small school like hers.

    Also it's impossible to be better than perfect. Anything over 4.0 = grade inflation.

    Not really. You can get over a 4.0 (we had a scale 0-100 but the equivalent) at my high school (you get a slight bump from AP/Honors classes) but it was extremely difficult and almost no one did it. One kid 3 years older than I am managed it but he was a maniac genius.

    The best way to deal with grade inflation is simply to ignore GPA and look at class rank. My dad interviewed for an Ivy League school for years and the school knew which schools had massive grade inflation. They simply took the kid's rank in comparison to peers as a better indicator. An example was a kid with a 97.4 avg (out of 100). My dad asked him "Where are u ranked in the top 10 of your class? (class size was around 150 there, private catholic school). The kid replied "I'm not in the top 10, I'm 17th." So he knew right then that this kid wasn't even top decile and probably wasn't going to make it in (he didn't).

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  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    sanstodo wrote: »
    VishNub wrote: »
    4.0 was the best you can do at her high school because there IS NO AP classes at a small school like hers.

    Also it's impossible to be better than perfect. Anything over 4.0 = grade inflation.

    Not really. You can get over a 4.0 (we had a scale 0-100 but the equivalent) at my high school (you get a slight bump from AP/Honors classes) but it was extremely difficult and almost no one did it.

    That's called grade inflation. In rock and roll it's called eleven.

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  • sanstodosanstodo Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    sanstodo wrote: »
    VishNub wrote: »
    4.0 was the best you can do at her high school because there IS NO AP classes at a small school like hers.

    Also it's impossible to be better than perfect. Anything over 4.0 = grade inflation.

    Not really. You can get over a 4.0 (we had a scale 0-100 but the equivalent) at my high school (you get a slight bump from AP/Honors classes) but it was extremely difficult and almost no one did it.

    That's called grade inflation. In rock and roll it's called eleven.

    Grade inflation occurs grades are incredibly high for a huge percentage of students, far beyond what could possibly constitute a curve. It cheapens high marks, creating the illusion of excellence when the students are simply average or above average.

    That year in my school, in a class of roughly 225, the valedictorian had a weighted GPA of 100.3. The kid in 10th place had a GPA around 94.

    For my class, the valedictorian had a GPA around 98.5 The person in 10th place was around 94. Go down to a bit more and you see people around 90. Go down another 20 and you see people around 86. And so on and so on.

    That's not grade inflation. If it were grade inflation, everyone in the top 20% or so would have GPAs in the high 90s. Ignore the top point and simply look at the DISTRIBUTION of the marks. That is what is truly important, thus the point I made about class ranks.

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  • FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    OK, so we can all agree grade inflation is bullshit, and I'm glad my state didn't fuck around with it. You should remember, however, that most schools take into account grade inflation and look at uninflated grades rather than the fake uber-grades. I mean, 100.3? I thought it was like an extra .1 or something for each AP when they inflate for it?

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  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    sanstodo wrote: »
    sanstodo wrote: »
    VishNub wrote: »
    4.0 was the best you can do at her high school because there IS NO AP classes at a small school like hers.

    Also it's impossible to be better than perfect. Anything over 4.0 = grade inflation.

    Not really. You can get over a 4.0 (we had a scale 0-100 but the equivalent) at my high school (you get a slight bump from AP/Honors classes) but it was extremely difficult and almost no one did it.

    That's called grade inflation. In rock and roll it's called eleven.

    Grade inflation occurs grades are incredibly high for a huge percentage of students, far beyond what could possibly constitute a curve. It cheapens high marks, creating the illusion of excellence when the students are simply average or above average.

    That year in my school, in a class of roughly 225, the valedictorian had a weighted GPA of 100.3. The kid in 10th place had a GPA around 94.

    For my class, the valedictorian had a GPA around 98.5 The person in 10th place was around 94. Go down to a bit more and you see people around 90. Go down another 20 and you see people around 86. And so on and so on.

    That's not grade inflation. If it were grade inflation, everyone in the top 20% or so would have GPAs in the high 90s. Ignore the top point and simply look at the DISTRIBUTION of the marks. That is what is truly important, thus the point I made about class ranks.

    I was being glib. You are right. Grade inflation is when a school or school district gets into an arms race with other schools over who gets into college and so teachers are pressured to grade higher. The grades don't fit an expected curve because all the kids are above average. Still, it is extremely silly to have grades over 4.0 in a system where 4.0 is the highest grade. You just changed from a simple 0-4 system to a more complicated 0-4.3 system but I suppose if it works it hardly matters. The extreme variance and unreliability of grades from various high schools is why university admissions folk love shit like SAT scores.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    sanstodo wrote: »
    VishNub wrote: »
    4.0 was the best you can do at her high school because there IS NO AP classes at a small school like hers.

    Also it's impossible to be better than perfect. Anything over 4.0 = grade inflation.

    Not really. You can get over a 4.0 (we had a scale 0-100 but the equivalent) at my high school (you get a slight bump from AP/Honors classes) but it was extremely difficult and almost no one did it.

    That's called grade inflation. In rock and roll it's called eleven.

    No, its not. Grade inflation is the increases in grades relative to constant quality.

    The claim is "all these damn kids who wont get off my lawn really aren't earning A's. If they went to school, 10 years ago, they would have gotten B's.". I.E. Its just like real inflation, the value of the dollar is slowly going down relative to production, this means more dollars are required to represent the same value. Except for grade inflation, higher grades represent the same quality of work.

    I haven't seen any numbers to prove this, except old codgers saying "omg, these younguns are stupid, i wasnt that stupid when i was young".

    Getting higher than a 4.0 is the result of taking "college level" courses, these courses are weighted higher than normal courses to represent that an A in them, is more than an "A" in the other course.

    A good example. In 6th grade, i skipped 7th grade math. The school said, "take the final, if you pass, well put you in 8th grade math in 7th grade, and 9th grade math as a special course in 8th grade.

    So, when i got to high school, I was a grade ahead in the typical progression, As a junior, i took AP Calc, and as a Senior, AP Calc II in independent study. Both of these, would be weighted higher than the typical course. So my As in them, instead of showing as a 4, show as a 5.

    Any school that has AP programs which you can receive college credit have this weighting. Such AP stats, AP Calc, AP Calc II, AP History etc receive a higher weighting than any normal course.

    Such, if you take 6 AP Courses over a 48 Semester high school career, and get all As in all classes, would result in a GPA of 4.125

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  • JastJast Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    All weighting does is encourage students to take as many AP courses as possible, even if they're easy ones, to get a 4.2 GPA. I think it's BS. I think the goverment should make everything based off a 4.0 GPA scale, where 4.0 is the highest, and no matter if you take 5 AP classes, you can't get higher then a 4.0 GPA. If dude A takes 5 regular classes, and gets an A in them, he should have a 4.0. If dude B takes 5 AP classes, and gets an A in them, he should still have a 4.0 GPA. Yeah, I know, you're taking college level courses, but that's your choice. Like electives, you shouldn't get a bonus.

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  • FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    States decide how to weight, not the federal government. Yet another problem we have with consistency in education in this country.

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  • ClipseClipse Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    States decide how to weight, not the federal government. Yet another problem we have with consistency in education in this country.

    School districts decide how to weight. Or at least, that is the case in my state.

    Clipse on
  • JastJast Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    No wonder colleges use the SATs. 5 different school districts can weight five different ways. I personally hate the SATs, but until the goverment takes more control, what can you do.

    Jast on
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  • VishNubVishNub Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Goumindong wrote: »
    A bloo bloo. I took hard course and got the same grade as johnny idiot in the regular section

    Doesn't matter. It's already counted when they look at the difficulty of your courses. And if they're not looking at the course difficulty, then it's either a crappy admissions process, you're already in because of just GPA and SAT, or you're not even close because of GPA and SAT. Either way, the solution is not to change the GPA scale, then report it like it was done on a 4.0 scale.

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  • SithDrummerSithDrummer Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    It may be grade inflation, but the focus is clearly on performance comparisons within the school and not between schools. Getting an A in a remedial class should not be worth as much as getting an A in an advanced class, particularly when the student is clearly capable of succeeding and learning more in said advanced class.

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  • FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Maybe grade weighting doesn't matter, because high school transcripts contain the letter grade and course names, and that's what really gets looked at. I guess it could be used to find out who really should be valedictorian or something, and to encourage kids to challenge themselves with APs.

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