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Block Value without talent: 394
Block value with talent: 512
Threat per second without: (((490+394)*1.1) + 307) / 6 = 213.2 assuming 0 armor
Threat per second with: (((490+(394*1.3))*1.1)+307) / 6 = 234.9 assuming 0 armor
Of those 2 values, 132 TPS is STATIC and does not matter at all what your block value is! That's almost 60% of the threat on a warrior that blocks for over 500! As you factor in armor the difference in TPS lowers due to the static threat and damage values (hooray multiplication).
That is to say, your threat generation will always be 307 + (damage * armor mitigation).
With 30% Block: At 10% reduction 234 becomes 216, at 20% 198 TPS
Without: 10% = 198, 20% = 180
The difference when you factor in armor gets smaller as the damage addition aspect becomes less significant, shrinking from 21 to 18.
Difference of ~20 TPS, or 6.7 TPS per point in the talent. When I spec prot I put my remaining 1-2 talents into it.. it's not a bad talent by any means and it does give you a good boost in TPS but ONLY IF YOU BLOCK FOR A LOT. If you block for like 180, you get a lot less out of the talent than my example.
As far as blocking goes, when you're getting railed for like 5000 damage per attack, blocking an additional 100 damage does FUCK ALL. If you want mitigation you stack armor because it is a constant regardless of the speed at which whatever is railing you attacks. If an attack gets past a block (like it does on prince phase 2 for example) armor will help you. Even if you do block, armor will help you.
On top of this if we go back to the example Warrior, he has over 50% PURE mitigation. Nothing will even hit him for him to block! The purpose of blocking it to mitigate crushing blows and push them off the table, not to actually prevent damage from anything you'd be actually worried about being crushed by.
As some additional food for thought, the speed of your weapon will factor in much more heavily than your shield block value if you looking for pure threat. Heroic strike does 220 innate threat at level 70. A 1.4 speed weapon will generate 157 TPS just from HS spam while a 2.0 speed will generate 110, a difference of over 47 TPS. Devastate does approx. 101 threat per application of Sunder Armor resulting in 336 TPS before damage is factored in.
If my example were to use Devastate post 5 sunders with his current gear (1.7 speed weapon) he would generate approx 443 TPS. If he were using a 2.7 speed weapon with identical DPS (Talon of Azshara) is 493 TPS, a difference of 50 TPS.
(There is an optimal weapon speed for tanks by the way that balances out optimum TPS from Devastate and HS, I don't feel like figuring it out though)
In my estimation, if you really think ~20 TPS is worth it, you may want to considering changing your tanking weapon and putting those talents into more useful areas.
CripTonic on
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KlineshrikeCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Devastate is fine, and if you're srs prot you'll be more than 41 into the tree anyways. It's not a high threat skill, but it will generate more threat than sunder armor per rage and per cast in almost all raiding situations. You're not going to prioritize it over Shield Slam or Revenge, but it's a quality tool and should be employed as part of a prot tank's arsenal.
To me the best part about devestate is for when you HAVE to dps, its a surprisingly nice dps tool for a prot warrior. If you are that deep anyway, I personally would take it for that reason more than anything.
As far as blocking goes, when you're getting railed for like 5000 damage per attack, blocking an additional 100 damage does FUCK ALL. If you want mitigation you stack armor because it is a constant regardless of the speed at which whatever is railing you attacks. If an attack gets past a block (like it does on prince phase 2 for example) armor will help you. Even if you do block, armor will help you.
If you are tanking, 100 less damage is still 100 less damage, for 3 talent points that its not THAT hard to take.
In your main tank build, you should drop the Imp Heroic Strike and put those points into Imp Thunderclap.
First read the thread, second if you actually want Imp TC then take points out of Bloodrage, Taunt, or Shieldwall.
Tanks only use heroic strike as an aggro dump when they just have to drop aggro from big hits. The threat it generates is minimal compared to anything else you could be using your global cooldown on.
Also, improved shield wall is important for fights like Doom Lord Kazzak where the MT shield walling through the entire enrage can make a huge difference in downing him, requiring less heals from the paladins.
So yeah Heroic Strike doesn't use the GCD, it also is a significant amount of agro at around 300-400 threat, sunder does 301 for comparison, and as such having a reduction of 3 rage is a pretty significant increase in efficiency which can be turned into more heroic strikes. Also Kazzak's enrage only lasts around 12 or less last time I checked and its not really necessary to have shield wall up for the full duration, as in having 2 seconds of no shield wall won't kill you.
The point is that whenever you will have enough rage so that you would actually need to use heroic strike to dump aggro because Devestate/Revenge/Shield Slam are on cooldown, you will be getting so much rage anyways that a few extra points won't make a difference.
You already will be generating so much threat that putting up mitigation is more important than getting a little extra rage efficiency.
Sure, a tank can be good at holding aggro, but equally important is spamming your shield block and keeping up T-Clap and Demo Shout.
Also, Imp. Shield wall is a mediocre talent, but is the best among a whole lot of mediocre talents.
Your first point is pretty much incorrect in my opinion as any rage savings is a good thing as it allows you to either use the skill earlier ans use more skills, unless you sit at 100 rage all the time than being able to HS more frequently is a increase in threat.
Not true, in the current end game it is extremely easy to pull threat in the end game and maximizing your threat generation is key.
There is no reason that you need to actually use these skills your self as TClap is ok threat, but Demo Shout is absolute garbage so you might as well have a warrior or a lock do it so that you can increase your own threat generation.
CripTonic: I agree that Shield Mastery isn't great, however it is a increase in TPS and is definitely a better talent in my opinion than Bloodrage, Imp Taunt etc so you might as well put points it. If you really want TCalp as a I'd take 2 points out of Bloodrage and one point out of Shield Mastery.
In your main tank build, you should drop the Imp Heroic Strike and put those points into Imp Thunderclap.
First read the thread, second if you actually want Imp TC then take points out of Bloodrage, Taunt, or Shieldwall.
Tanks only use heroic strike as an aggro dump when they just have to drop aggro from big hits. The threat it generates is minimal compared to anything else you could be using your global cooldown on.
Also, improved shield wall is important for fights like Doom Lord Kazzak where the MT shield walling through the entire enrage can make a huge difference in downing him, requiring less heals from the paladins.
So yeah Heroic Strike doesn't use the GCD, it also is a significant amount of agro at around 300-400 threat, sunder does 301 for comparison, and as such having a reduction of 3 rage is a pretty significant increase in efficiency which can be turned into more heroic strikes. Also Kazzak's enrage only lasts around 12 or less last time I checked and its not really necessary to have shield wall up for the full duration, as in having 2 seconds of no shield wall won't kill you.
The point is that whenever you will have enough rage so that you would actually need to use heroic strike to dump aggro because Devestate/Revenge/Shield Slam are on cooldown, you will be getting so much rage anyways that a few extra points won't make a difference.
You already will be generating so much threat that putting up mitigation is more important than getting a little extra rage efficiency.
Sure, a tank can be good at holding aggro, but equally important is spamming your shield block and keeping up T-Clap and Demo Shout.
Also, Imp. Shield wall is a mediocre talent, but is the best among a whole lot of mediocre talents.
Your first point is pretty much incorrect in my opinion as any rage savings is a good thing as it allows you to either use the skill earlier ans use more skills, unless you sit at 100 rage all the time than being able to HS more frequently is a increase in threat.
Not true, in the current end game it is extremely easy to pull threat in the end game and maximizing your threat generation is key.
There is no reason that you need to actually use these skills your self as TClap is ok threat, but Demo Shout is absolute garbage so you might as well have a warrior or a lock do it so that you can increase your own threat generation.
CripTonic: I agree that Shield Mastery isn't great, however it is a increase in TPS and is definitely a better talent in my opinion than Bloodrage, Imp Taunt etc so you might as well put points it. If you really want TCalp as a I'd take 2 points out of Bloodrage and one point out of Shield Mastery.
It's only easy to pull threat in the endgame if your tank isn't good or your pallies don't keep up salvation. The only times where there's any aggro sensitivity with my guild is on Gruul during the last 10% when the DPS warriors are spamming their executes and the hunters are using their misdirects on the off tank.
Almost every class has tools to manage their own aggro, and the only people who really have to worry when my tank is going full steam is the odd dps warrior or the shadow priests in excess of 1100 +damage.
Then again, the warrior I'm getting my information from might be an exception to the general rule, because he's had guildies who have tanked through most of Naxxramas acknowledge him as being the best tank they've ever seen.
Plutonium on
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KlineshrikeCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited July 2007
While classes have aggro management tools, most of the time these slow thier dps, even if only a little. On gruul at least, many people are limited by aggro more than by gear for DPS. Salv helps, but even then rogues prolly still have to feint, which is a GCD and energy that could have been used for damage had they not needed to. Mages invis takes time which = dps (albiet not long, but still, it exsists). Locks have thier shatter business, but I think they can still catch right back up and be watching thier aggro again.
I feel the need to clarify my reasoning on why Shield Mastery sucks:
I use Shield Mastery to get Imp Shield Block, which has saved my life on Prince and Gruul more times than I can count. Less crushing blows and less time on the recycle? Yes please.
FWIW, I use the Imp TC over HS 8/5/48 as well. If you have enough Rage to HS (it's a RAGE dump, not an aggro dump like Feint), you aren't going to need the Imp HS. SS -> Revenge -> Devastate (Sunder) -> HS when everything is on cooldown.
TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
edited July 2007
Ok guys, I badly need help. I've been an arms warrior all the way to 70, but now in order to play any role in instances I have to respec(Every guild team always needs a tank, and PUGS need them too, they never seem to want a warrior to do damage when they have dr00ds and rogues). Basically I want to know, how vital is devastate in non-heroic 5 man instances? If its not extremely important, then I can go 31/0/30 and keep MS for Arena's but if it is vital then I'm making myself practically useless in arenas.
So, is devastate really that necessary for tanks in non-heroics or can I make a nice hybrid build?
This is my character currently, and yes I will be getting better gear once I start doing instances, but I also want some arena stuff. Any recommendations for gear would also be nice.
No, Devastate is not necessary. However, I'd say Shield Slam and Concussion Blow are necessary for CC and snap aggro.
not for non heroics. Hell, I'm 41/5/15 (yes, Endless ragelol) and I have tanked every non heroic there is and my fair share of heroics just fine. All you need is non retarded DPS who can grasp the concept of focus fire.
For 5-man tanking I feel Imp Thunderclap is more important than devastate, but as I've said earlier in the thread I find devastate a valuable and useful tool if you opt to go prot. I don't think you really get much out of sticking to 31-35 prot over dumping at least 41 into the tree if you're that far.
Dehumanized on
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TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
For 5-man tanking I feel Imp Thunderclap is more important than devastate, but as I've said earlier in the thread I find devastate a valuable and useful tool if you opt to go prot. I don't think you really get much out of sticking to 31-35 prot over dumping at least 41 into the tree if you're that far.
I'd like to get SS for tanking, and MS for arenas. Going 31/0/30 seems a nice balance, and allows me to do both reasonably well(Hopefully)
For 5 man non heroic instances I'd say that assuming you have half decent dps and healers then prot isn't necessary at all. Its only when you get into heroics do you really need defiance and Imp TC and then when you raid that you should get every available talent.
edit: The problem I see with that is if you serious about arenas your build is inferior to a 35/23/3 build. If you don't really care then it doesn't really matter, but there is a really big difference. Also SS is 31 points into prot so you either get it or MS.
khain on
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TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
For 5 man non heroic instances I'd say that assuming you have half decent dps and healers then prot isn't necessary at all. Its only when you get into heroics do you really need defiance and Imp TC and then when you raid that you should get every available talent.
edit: The problem I see with that is if you serious about arenas your build is inferior to a 35/23/3 build. If you don't really care then it doesn't really matter, but there is a really big difference. Also SS is 31 points into prot so you either get it or MS.
Oh, crap. I read "Requires 30 points in protection" as "This get this for 30 points"... well. Can anyone make me a decent build, using MS and some prot. I really want the prot, mainly since I haven't tanked anything and I want to try and make things as easy as possible on my self as I can = \
Thanks again for helping someone as tanktarded as me
Also, if you're mace spec, you can swap the imp demo shout, piercing howl, and one point out of Arms for Prot up to Concussion Blow. I doubt it would be better (piercing howl is kind of awesome), but not many people expect the warrior to be throwing down a stunlock.
In your main tank build, you should drop the Imp Heroic Strike and put those points into Imp Thunderclap.
First read the thread, second if you actually want Imp TC then take points out of Bloodrage, Taunt, or Shieldwall.
Tanks only use heroic strike as an aggro dump when they just have to drop aggro from big hits. The threat it generates is minimal compared to anything else you could be using your global cooldown on.
Also, improved shield wall is important for fights like Doom Lord Kazzak where the MT shield walling through the entire enrage can make a huge difference in downing him, requiring less heals from the paladins.
Misinformation is tasty.
Heroic strike is a huge amount of threat. Heroic strike is OFF the GCD. Relying on shield wall to survive an encounter is retarded.
By chance are there such detailed sites dealing with gearing for Fury and Arms as the one linked to in the OP?
I have a pretty decent idea of how to gear Fury, and Prot thanks to that website (though I'll never go prot, likely), but not Arms. If I want to do well in the Arena, I basically need to go Arms at some point, so... yeah. Help a brother out here. Also, I'd love to have a better base understanding of why I'm gearing myself the way I am, for both of the DPS specs. Like, with tables and numbers and everything.
Tanking as a Prot warrior is retarded easy. I mean, you expect to do it well, obviously... but this is damn near effortless. :O
It gets easy until you have to face a well geared raid... They are your true enemy. Keeping up maximum threat isn't easy.
That said, the OUT OF RAID experience for a prot warrior is stupid easy. *get real well itemized gear, stick solid stars of elune in, call it a day*. It's nothing compared to a prot paladin, who have to work so much harder for their gear, and have to constantly tight-rope the fine line between defense and health.
But when it comes to their raid tanking... pick a judgement, pick a seal, rotate consecrate and holy shield. watch cooldowns.
I'd much rather have a simple gear selecton and an actual invigorating tank process though, although ideally I'd also rather have both. Unfortunately all a warrior needs to do to tank is get tons of health and keep shield block up, and then work on their threat.
"working on threath" means "keep your aggro generating skills on cooldown", because in quite a lot of raid tanking situation rage is not an issue.
Which is going to be the end-game problem with warrior tanking. Assuming you press every button ever, there is no difference and nowhere to go with tanking.
Once you succesfully Shield Slam every 6 seconds, Heroic Strike every hit, Shield Block every time its up, and revenge, and sunder/devestate occasionally, thats it. You're done.
The resist fear is pretty bad, if you pvp spec'd you already have 2 fear breaks that combined last 50 seconds if you stacked them back to back. The sword is also the fasted of the 3 weapons, has low crit from the agi and the proc, which I assume is one ppm (but I could be wrong) is good but doesn't make up for the other disadvantages. Sword spec however is better than axe spec against almost all targets assuming high resilience is factored in. However the mace is the best by far, slowest speed so the highest top end, has some stam and the chance to stun, which is good but low proc rate from what I've heard, but mace spec itself pushes it way over the top as probably one of the best 2handers in the game. This is all pvp though for pve both axes are good for dps, the one handed mace is supposedly amazing for fury and the sword is a pretty decent tanking weapon.
The resist fear is pretty bad, if you pvp spec'd you already have 2 fear breaks that combined last 50 seconds if you stacked them back to back. The sword is also the fasted of the 3 weapons, has low crit from the agi and the proc, which I assume is one ppm (but I could be wrong) is good but doesn't make up for the other disadvantages. Sword spec however is better than axe spec against almost all targets assuming high resilience is factored in. However the mace is the best by far, slowest speed so the highest top end, has some stam and the chance to stun, which is good but low proc rate from what I've heard, but mace spec itself pushes it way over the top as probably one of the best 2handers in the game. This is all pvp though for pve both axes are good for dps, the one handed mace is supposedly amazing for fury and the sword is a pretty decent tanking weapon.
Just some backup on the mace thing, I love my mace. Using Thunder Mace spec has an 11% chance per hit to proc, given that you normally lay into someone with intercept, mortal strike, hamstring and whirlwind you get the initial stun regularly enough to make a very noticeable performance difference (in addition it can stun people hit by WW/cleave/sweeping who are not your main target). The deep thunder proc is apparently about 4%, so it's less of a big deal, but is still nice, working towards it but very hard to get heroic spots as an arms spec warrior (despite regularly being top DPS in PuGs).
I can speak less from personal experience w.r.t the drakefist hammer, I have one but haven't had much chance to be fury and use it (most of my time on warrior is spent in BGs). What reports I have of it are good though, it's a solid starter mainhand.
Builds are important, but technique is moreso. I'd spend less time telling a tank what talents to get (pre-Kara/25-man) and more time discussing what a tank's actual job is and how they should use their toolbox.
Been in too many runs with pussy-ass tanks who want everybody to CC and OT every last fricking mob for them to save them a repair bill, tanks who think taunt is a threat-builder and not an aggro-taker-backer, tanks who refuse to thunderclap no non-elite trash because they're "afraid [they'll] die and i can't kite like on my hunter", or tanks who just don't give a fuck and would just assume have someone die every pull.
If you are the tank, it is your job to be the only toon the mobs are hitting as much of the time as possible. It is your job to keep your DPS and healer alive, so they can help keep you alive. It is in your power to make a run smooth or chaotic.
Only when a tank of any class knows his/her toolbox and accept his/her role is any discussion of talents relevant.
I got a question on warrior macros. (Yes I know there is a macro forum, but I want to shamelessly bump this thread)
What use is a /stopcasting macro for a warrior? I have never been 100% sure on what it does, something about ignoring server lag or something. The only macros I ever use are ones for stance dancing on stance specific moves and my simple yet effective attack macros.
/castrandom Bloodthirst, Victory Rush, Execute
Is there more that I can bring to the table using a more efficient macro? I only ask because damn near every move we got is an instant or has no cast time and are mostly limited by server lag and the GCD.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Getting bored with the 'ol Rogue, and thinking about making myself a Warrior and focusing on Arena and eventually maybe raid tanking one day.
So, i'm kind of torn between two race choices. Tauren and Undead. I love the Undead racials, they kick so much ass for PvP. I *HATE* the fact that all the armor is torn, it really pisses me off. Tauren, I like the fact they make (imo) the most imposing looking tanks in the game. They are just massive, have tons of HP's, and a fun little ground stomp which is useful for PvP as well.
So, which do you prefer between the two? And no, don't suggest Orc's or Trolls, I'm not even considering those classes.
Getting bored with the 'ol Rogue, and thinking about making myself a Warrior and focusing on Arena and eventually maybe raid tanking one day.
So, i'm kind of torn between two race choices. Tauren and Undead. I love the Undead racials, they kick so much ass for PvP. I *HATE* the fact that all the armor is torn, it really pisses me off. Tauren, I like the fact they make (imo) the most imposing looking tanks in the game. They are just massive, have tons of HP's, and a fun little ground stomp which is useful for PvP as well.
So, which do you prefer between the two? And no, don't suggest Orc's or Trolls, I'm not even considering those classes.
Tauren pvp warrior checking in.
Warstomp is awesome. Chances are you have 2 (3 if you use the pvp trinket as a fear break) fear breaks already as a warrior, both these breaks come with immunities for a considerable period. The undead fear break is less of an issue for warriors than for any other class.
I do tend to get targetted first in BG pvp due to size and wearing a pink shirt, which while it's personally frustrating is probably a good thing for winning BGs, chewing through my health +armour + interrupts takes a good while even for 2-3 people.
I would not personally trade my tauren for an undead.
On the negative side, many armour pieces looks stupidly crap on tauren, especially hats. Too many warrior helmets have horns, meaning that i often have 2 sets of horns, which looks stupid. Also levelling a warrior will feel like the suck after having levelled a rogue, warriors thrive only in very top end gear.
Meh, I hate the Tauren attack animations, they seem so bland. The undead have a little more finess. Also, Undead dance > Tauren dance. But what do I know, I picked human...
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
So I am just curious, is there any place for either a fully spec'd or partially spec'd protection warrior? I am joining a guild that is actively raiding Kara, and they want me to spec protection. At the same time, my friends and I wanted to make an arena team. Are those two mutually exclusive?
From what I've read, warriors with mortal strike in an arena team are "the tits", so by going protection, would I be pretty much losing the one ability that makes me useful in the arena?
I do not forsee you being able to be competitive in the Arena, ESPECIALLY when you're just starting out, with any prot build that would let you MT Kara.
But that's just me theorycrafting, I've never raided kara or prot arena'd.
If you had to roll a male alliance warrior...what race would you pick? I loathe how lame humans look...maybe Dwarf? Male Draenei warriors just don't look appealing to me....
Escape Artist is better Stoneform in my opinion for several reason. First because warriors normally beat rogues in 1v1 anyway so stoneform isn't that useful there. In 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 its far more likely that you'll have a snare on you that isn't crippling and getting blinded isn't that common and finally 1 min cd > 3 min cd.
Kainy is pretty much right, there is zero advantage to being prot in arena and basically no advantage to having MS in kara.
Are you serious? Alright well... aside from the fact that there are healing mobs and it slows them down. MS is a warrior's main dps skill. While you might not need the debuff a warrior not using MS is like a frost mage not shooting frostbolts.
Posts
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Illidan&n=Chogrin
This is a guy I used to play with a few months back, he blocks for 394 when he blocks and gets a static 307 threat from every shield slam he uses.
Block Value without talent: 394
Block value with talent: 512
Threat per second without: (((490+394)*1.1) + 307) / 6 = 213.2 assuming 0 armor
Threat per second with: (((490+(394*1.3))*1.1)+307) / 6 = 234.9 assuming 0 armor
Of those 2 values, 132 TPS is STATIC and does not matter at all what your block value is! That's almost 60% of the threat on a warrior that blocks for over 500! As you factor in armor the difference in TPS lowers due to the static threat and damage values (hooray multiplication).
That is to say, your threat generation will always be 307 + (damage * armor mitigation).
With 30% Block: At 10% reduction 234 becomes 216, at 20% 198 TPS
Without: 10% = 198, 20% = 180
The difference when you factor in armor gets smaller as the damage addition aspect becomes less significant, shrinking from 21 to 18.
Difference of ~20 TPS, or 6.7 TPS per point in the talent. When I spec prot I put my remaining 1-2 talents into it.. it's not a bad talent by any means and it does give you a good boost in TPS but ONLY IF YOU BLOCK FOR A LOT. If you block for like 180, you get a lot less out of the talent than my example.
As far as blocking goes, when you're getting railed for like 5000 damage per attack, blocking an additional 100 damage does FUCK ALL. If you want mitigation you stack armor because it is a constant regardless of the speed at which whatever is railing you attacks. If an attack gets past a block (like it does on prince phase 2 for example) armor will help you. Even if you do block, armor will help you.
On top of this if we go back to the example Warrior, he has over 50% PURE mitigation. Nothing will even hit him for him to block! The purpose of blocking it to mitigate crushing blows and push them off the table, not to actually prevent damage from anything you'd be actually worried about being crushed by.
As some additional food for thought, the speed of your weapon will factor in much more heavily than your shield block value if you looking for pure threat. Heroic strike does 220 innate threat at level 70. A 1.4 speed weapon will generate 157 TPS just from HS spam while a 2.0 speed will generate 110, a difference of over 47 TPS. Devastate does approx. 101 threat per application of Sunder Armor resulting in 336 TPS before damage is factored in.
If my example were to use Devastate post 5 sunders with his current gear (1.7 speed weapon) he would generate approx 443 TPS. If he were using a 2.7 speed weapon with identical DPS (Talon of Azshara) is 493 TPS, a difference of 50 TPS.
(There is an optimal weapon speed for tanks by the way that balances out optimum TPS from Devastate and HS, I don't feel like figuring it out though)
In my estimation, if you really think ~20 TPS is worth it, you may want to considering changing your tanking weapon and putting those talents into more useful areas.
To me the best part about devestate is for when you HAVE to dps, its a surprisingly nice dps tool for a prot warrior. If you are that deep anyway, I personally would take it for that reason more than anything.
If you are tanking, 100 less damage is still 100 less damage, for 3 talent points that its not THAT hard to take.
Your first point is pretty much incorrect in my opinion as any rage savings is a good thing as it allows you to either use the skill earlier ans use more skills, unless you sit at 100 rage all the time than being able to HS more frequently is a increase in threat.
Not true, in the current end game it is extremely easy to pull threat in the end game and maximizing your threat generation is key.
There is no reason that you need to actually use these skills your self as TClap is ok threat, but Demo Shout is absolute garbage so you might as well have a warrior or a lock do it so that you can increase your own threat generation.
CripTonic: I agree that Shield Mastery isn't great, however it is a increase in TPS and is definitely a better talent in my opinion than Bloodrage, Imp Taunt etc so you might as well put points it. If you really want TCalp as a I'd take 2 points out of Bloodrage and one point out of Shield Mastery.
It's only easy to pull threat in the endgame if your tank isn't good or your pallies don't keep up salvation. The only times where there's any aggro sensitivity with my guild is on Gruul during the last 10% when the DPS warriors are spamming their executes and the hunters are using their misdirects on the off tank.
Almost every class has tools to manage their own aggro, and the only people who really have to worry when my tank is going full steam is the odd dps warrior or the shadow priests in excess of 1100 +damage.
Then again, the warrior I'm getting my information from might be an exception to the general rule, because he's had guildies who have tanked through most of Naxxramas acknowledge him as being the best tank they've ever seen.
I use Shield Mastery to get Imp Shield Block, which has saved my life on Prince and Gruul more times than I can count. Less crushing blows and less time on the recycle? Yes please.
FWIW, I use the Imp TC over HS 8/5/48 as well. If you have enough Rage to HS (it's a RAGE dump, not an aggro dump like Feint), you aren't going to need the Imp HS. SS -> Revenge -> Devastate (Sunder) -> HS when everything is on cooldown.
EVE Online - Elizabet Loki
So, is devastate really that necessary for tanks in non-heroics or can I make a nice hybrid build?
This is my character currently, and yes I will be getting better gear once I start doing instances, but I also want some arena stuff. Any recommendations for gear would also be nice.
EVE Online - Elizabet Loki
not for non heroics. Hell, I'm 41/5/15 (yes, Endless ragelol) and I have tanked every non heroic there is and my fair share of heroics just fine. All you need is non retarded DPS who can grasp the concept of focus fire.
I'd like to get SS for tanking, and MS for arenas. Going 31/0/30 seems a nice balance, and allows me to do both reasonably well(Hopefully)
Thanks for the feedback.
edit: The problem I see with that is if you serious about arenas your build is inferior to a 35/23/3 build. If you don't really care then it doesn't really matter, but there is a really big difference. Also SS is 31 points into prot so you either get it or MS.
Oh, crap. I read "Requires 30 points in protection" as "This get this for 30 points"... well. Can anyone make me a decent build, using MS and some prot. I really want the prot, mainly since I haven't tanked anything and I want to try and make things as easy as possible on my self as I can = \
Thanks again for helping someone as tanktarded as me
Fucking Draeni.
Caved in because my girlfriend also started a Draeni Warrior and wanted to level with me. I wanted to go Horde but... meh.
Plus side is I sent him about 150 copper ore and 90 tin ore. Wheee, Blacksmithing still fucking sucked.
Misinformation is tasty.
Heroic strike is a huge amount of threat. Heroic strike is OFF the GCD. Relying on shield wall to survive an encounter is retarded.
Thank you for your time.
I have a pretty decent idea of how to gear Fury, and Prot thanks to that website (though I'll never go prot, likely), but not Arms. If I want to do well in the Arena, I basically need to go Arms at some point, so... yeah. Help a brother out here. Also, I'd love to have a better base understanding of why I'm gearing myself the way I am, for both of the DPS specs. Like, with tables and numbers and everything.
It gets easy until you have to face a well geared raid... They are your true enemy. Keeping up maximum threat isn't easy.
That said, the OUT OF RAID experience for a prot warrior is stupid easy. *get real well itemized gear, stick solid stars of elune in, call it a day*. It's nothing compared to a prot paladin, who have to work so much harder for their gear, and have to constantly tight-rope the fine line between defense and health.
But when it comes to their raid tanking... pick a judgement, pick a seal, rotate consecrate and holy shield. watch cooldowns.
I'd much rather have a simple gear selecton and an actual invigorating tank process though, although ideally I'd also rather have both. Unfortunately all a warrior needs to do to tank is get tons of health and keep shield block up, and then work on their threat.
Which is going to be the end-game problem with warrior tanking. Assuming you press every button ever, there is no difference and nowhere to go with tanking.
Once you succesfully Shield Slam every 6 seconds, Heroic Strike every hit, Shield Block every time its up, and revenge, and sunder/devestate occasionally, thats it. You're done.
Fortunately, it's still enough.
The swords seem nice, with the % chance to resist fear, and the 5% double attack proc, but does that outweigh the raw stats and extra crit of Axes?
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
Just some backup on the mace thing, I love my mace. Using Thunder Mace spec has an 11% chance per hit to proc, given that you normally lay into someone with intercept, mortal strike, hamstring and whirlwind you get the initial stun regularly enough to make a very noticeable performance difference (in addition it can stun people hit by WW/cleave/sweeping who are not your main target). The deep thunder proc is apparently about 4%, so it's less of a big deal, but is still nice, working towards it but very hard to get heroic spots as an arms spec warrior (despite regularly being top DPS in PuGs).
I can speak less from personal experience w.r.t the drakefist hammer, I have one but haven't had much chance to be fury and use it (most of my time on warrior is spent in BGs). What reports I have of it are good though, it's a solid starter mainhand.
Been in too many runs with pussy-ass tanks who want everybody to CC and OT every last fricking mob for them to save them a repair bill, tanks who think taunt is a threat-builder and not an aggro-taker-backer, tanks who refuse to thunderclap no non-elite trash because they're "afraid [they'll] die and i can't kite like on my hunter", or tanks who just don't give a fuck and would just assume have someone die every pull.
If you are the tank, it is your job to be the only toon the mobs are hitting as much of the time as possible. It is your job to keep your DPS and healer alive, so they can help keep you alive. It is in your power to make a run smooth or chaotic.
Only when a tank of any class knows his/her toolbox and accept his/her role is any discussion of talents relevant.
What use is a /stopcasting macro for a warrior? I have never been 100% sure on what it does, something about ignoring server lag or something. The only macros I ever use are ones for stance dancing on stance specific moves and my simple yet effective attack macros.
/castrandom Bloodthirst, Victory Rush, Execute
Is there more that I can bring to the table using a more efficient macro? I only ask because damn near every move we got is an instant or has no cast time and are mostly limited by server lag and the GCD.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
So, i'm kind of torn between two race choices. Tauren and Undead. I love the Undead racials, they kick so much ass for PvP. I *HATE* the fact that all the armor is torn, it really pisses me off. Tauren, I like the fact they make (imo) the most imposing looking tanks in the game. They are just massive, have tons of HP's, and a fun little ground stomp which is useful for PvP as well.
So, which do you prefer between the two? And no, don't suggest Orc's or Trolls, I'm not even considering those classes.
Tauren pvp warrior checking in.
Warstomp is awesome. Chances are you have 2 (3 if you use the pvp trinket as a fear break) fear breaks already as a warrior, both these breaks come with immunities for a considerable period. The undead fear break is less of an issue for warriors than for any other class.
I do tend to get targetted first in BG pvp due to size and wearing a pink shirt, which while it's personally frustrating is probably a good thing for winning BGs, chewing through my health +armour + interrupts takes a good while even for 2-3 people.
I would not personally trade my tauren for an undead.
On the negative side, many armour pieces looks stupidly crap on tauren, especially hats. Too many warrior helmets have horns, meaning that i often have 2 sets of horns, which looks stupid. Also levelling a warrior will feel like the suck after having levelled a rogue, warriors thrive only in very top end gear.
But yeah, it's a toss up. Thanks for the input.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
From what I've read, warriors with mortal strike in an arena team are "the tits", so by going protection, would I be pretty much losing the one ability that makes me useful in the arena?
But that's just me theorycrafting, I've never raided kara or prot arena'd.
Dwarves are okay too I guess.
Are you serious? Alright well... aside from the fact that there are healing mobs and it slows them down. MS is a warrior's main dps skill. While you might not need the debuff a warrior not using MS is like a frost mage not shooting frostbolts.