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[WoW] Warriors: L2Tank Here

1356774

Posts

  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I was under the impression that fury specs did more PvE damage anyway.

    Bigity on
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Seryk wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Kainy is pretty much right, there is zero advantage to being prot in arena and basically no advantage to having MS in kara.

    Are you serious? Alright well... aside from the fact that there are healing mobs and it slows them down. MS is a warrior's main dps skill. While you might not need the debuff a warrior not using MS is like a frost mage not shooting frostbolts.

    Unless I'm totally forgetting something no boss in kara heals where it actually matters and I don't believe there is anywhere else either, but if there is then tell to use wounding and your fine. While MS can be somewhat raid viable, fury is most likley a better spec for dps, but this entire discussion is worthless because you totally fucking missed the context of the question. He asked if protection spec and arena are mutually exclusive and they pretty much are as I said and being partial protection to get MS makes you a lousy MT and still gimps you in arenas.

    khain on
  • KartanKartan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Well, a MS/Prot build makes you a half-way decent Off tank/DD for bosses where one tank is enough. Also, MS makes a nice backup for R+J when the interrupts fail and it can help quite a bit on Illhoof since he heals up from the demonchains. But it is nowhere near being required, and for raw dps fury is better. However, it is my opinion that the higher level arms talents are better for tanking then the respective fury talents.

    Kartan on
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    khain wrote: »
    Seryk wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Kainy is pretty much right, there is zero advantage to being prot in arena and basically no advantage to having MS in kara.

    Are you serious? Alright well... aside from the fact that there are healing mobs and it slows them down. MS is a warrior's main dps skill. While you might not need the debuff a warrior not using MS is like a frost mage not shooting frostbolts.

    Unless I'm totally forgetting something no boss in kara heals where it actually matters and I don't believe there is anywhere else either, but if there is then tell to use wounding and your fine. While MS can be somewhat raid viable, fury is most likley a better spec for dps, but this entire discussion is worthless because you totally fucking missed the context of the question. He asked if protection spec and arena are mutually exclusive and they pretty much are as I said and being partial protection to get MS makes you a lousy MT and still gimps you in arenas.

    Illhoof and Juliet come to mind.

    Thomamelas on
  • KrunkMcGrunkKrunkMcGrunk Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Seryk wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Kainy is pretty much right, there is zero advantage to being prot in arena and basically no advantage to having MS in kara.

    Are you serious? Alright well... aside from the fact that there are healing mobs and it slows them down. MS is a warrior's main dps skill. While you might not need the debuff a warrior not using MS is like a frost mage not shooting frostbolts.

    Unless I'm totally forgetting something no boss in kara heals where it actually matters and I don't believe there is anywhere else either, but if there is then tell to use wounding and your fine. While MS can be somewhat raid viable, fury is most likley a better spec for dps, but this entire discussion is worthless because you totally fucking missed the context of the question. He asked if protection spec and arena are mutually exclusive and they pretty much are as I said and being partial protection to get MS makes you a lousy MT and still gimps you in arenas.

    Illhoof and Juliet come to mind.

    More to the point, why would you be doing PvE DPS and not spec fury? In that regard, it beats arms, hands down. If you PvP, then you definitely have a case for an Arms build. But Fury can put out a good bit more DPS in PvE than arms.

    KrunkMcGrunk on
    mrsatansig.png
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Seryk wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Kainy is pretty much right, there is zero advantage to being prot in arena and basically no advantage to having MS in kara.

    Are you serious? Alright well... aside from the fact that there are healing mobs and it slows them down. MS is a warrior's main dps skill. While you might not need the debuff a warrior not using MS is like a frost mage not shooting frostbolts.

    Unless I'm totally forgetting something no boss in kara heals where it actually matters and I don't believe there is anywhere else either, but if there is then tell to use wounding and your fine. While MS can be somewhat raid viable, fury is most likley a better spec for dps, but this entire discussion is worthless because you totally fucking missed the context of the question. He asked if protection spec and arena are mutually exclusive and they pretty much are as I said and being partial protection to get MS makes you a lousy MT and still gimps you in arenas.

    Illhoof and Juliet come to mind.

    If you don't interrupt Juliet you are retarded and deserve to wipe and on Illhoof I guess its ok, but you could tell a rogue to use wounding or just break the chains and he doesn't heal that much. It might be better on Illhoof as your probably decrease his healing enough to gain a dps advantage over Fury, but specing for one fight that isn't very hard is meh.

    khain on
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Also, healing issues are what wounding poison is for.

    For Juliet...you may not have interrupters. That was the case with my last Kara run. Zero rogues, may have been two warriors, zero mages I think.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    If you have a rogue to apply wounding then you have a rogue who can kick.

    Opty on
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    But one interrupter isn't enough for most/all healing bosses is it? Like, if your tank that day is a druid.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • ohoh Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Opty wrote: »
    If you have a rogue to apply wounding then you have a rogue who can kick.

    Not all healing spells have cast times.

    oh on
  • SerykSeryk Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    khain wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Seryk wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Kainy is pretty much right, there is zero advantage to being prot in arena and basically no advantage to having MS in kara.

    Are you serious? Alright well... aside from the fact that there are healing mobs and it slows them down. MS is a warrior's main dps skill. While you might not need the debuff a warrior not using MS is like a frost mage not shooting frostbolts.

    Unless I'm totally forgetting something no boss in kara heals where it actually matters and I don't believe there is anywhere else either, but if there is then tell to use wounding and your fine. While MS can be somewhat raid viable, fury is most likley a better spec for dps, but this entire discussion is worthless because you totally fucking missed the context of the question. He asked if protection spec and arena are mutually exclusive and they pretty much are as I said and being partial protection to get MS makes you a lousy MT and still gimps you in arenas.

    Illhoof and Juliet come to mind.

    If you don't interrupt Juliet you are retarded and deserve to wipe and on Illhoof I guess its ok, but you could tell a rogue to use wounding or just break the chains and he doesn't heal that much. It might be better on Illhoof as your probably decrease his healing enough to gain a dps advantage over Fury, but specing for one fight that isn't very hard is meh.

    I'm tired of hearing that Fury inherently out DPSes Arms. Also I've MTed a lot of bosses in Karazhan and a ton of heroics without any +defense gear aside from my shield, just the shit that's on my armory page and a sword and board. You don't need to be prot. But hey, if you're into the everquesting logic of "Warriors are not allowed to do damage, tank only kthx bye" I'm not going to bother trying to change your opinion on that.

    On another note, not all guilds are filled to the brim with awesome rogues with great latency that always land their kicks. I'm not a rogue. If my MS can make the difference of a fight being a success and a wipe, then it's a viable tactic.

    Or you could just operate under the assumption that what was true at level 60 is true at 70, arms does no damage at all, MS sucks, can't tank without being prot... Your choice.

    Seryk on
  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    If you are tanking Kara and not crit-immune, you are running with 5 healers and driving them to madness.

    I wear DPS gear when tanking heroics myself.

    Bigity on
  • SerykSeryk Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Resilience for the win.

    Seryk on
  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Yes, getting uncrittable is easy :)

    I'd like to see you tank prince or nightbane without being uncrushable most of the time as well :D

    Bigity on
  • SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Seryk wrote: »
    Resilience for the win.

    Could you explain this a bit, from what other people have been saying, Resilience gear really isn't all that useful in PvE situations. How often do your healers complain about you? How many are focused on keeping you alive?

    Seg on
  • SerykSeryk Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Seg wrote: »
    Seryk wrote: »
    Resilience for the win.

    Could you explain this a bit, from what other people have been saying, Resilience gear really isn't all that useful in PvE situations. How often do your healers complain about you? How many are focused on keeping you alive?

    Resilience reduces your chance to be crit just like defense. Resilience has the added bonus of reducing spellcrit damage, unlike defense.

    My healers never complain.. I'm pretty sure it's not just because they like me because I tanked all of the runs to get my nethers for my lionheart champ.

    Seryk on
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Spells cast by PvE mobs cannot crit. Ever.

    Dehumanized on
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I don't think mobs' spells can crit, so it reducing spellcrit doesn't mean anything in the context of tanking.

    Opty on
  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    They probably don't complain because they are nursing their fingers for the next boss fight, and waste as few keystrokes as possible.

    Resilience also stops being useful for PvE the instant you cover the crit cap. Defense continues to add to parry, miss, dodge, etc.

    In short, yes you can probably tank some bosses in Kara. But you will never do it as well as a equally skilled warrior wearing defense items and at least some points in Prot.

    Bigity on
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Seryk wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Seryk wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Kainy is pretty much right, there is zero advantage to being prot in arena and basically no advantage to having MS in kara.

    Are you serious? Alright well... aside from the fact that there are healing mobs and it slows them down. MS is a warrior's main dps skill. While you might not need the debuff a warrior not using MS is like a frost mage not shooting frostbolts.

    Unless I'm totally forgetting something no boss in kara heals where it actually matters and I don't believe there is anywhere else either, but if there is then tell to use wounding and your fine. While MS can be somewhat raid viable, fury is most likley a better spec for dps, but this entire discussion is worthless because you totally fucking missed the context of the question. He asked if protection spec and arena are mutually exclusive and they pretty much are as I said and being partial protection to get MS makes you a lousy MT and still gimps you in arenas.

    Illhoof and Juliet come to mind.

    If you don't interrupt Juliet you are retarded and deserve to wipe and on Illhoof I guess its ok, but you could tell a rogue to use wounding or just break the chains and he doesn't heal that much. It might be better on Illhoof as your probably decrease his healing enough to gain a dps advantage over Fury, but specing for one fight that isn't very hard is meh.

    I'm tired of hearing that Fury inherently out DPSes Arms. Also I've MTed a lot of bosses in Karazhan and a ton of heroics without any +defense gear aside from my shield, just the shit that's on my armory page and a sword and board. You don't need to be prot. But hey, if you're into the everquesting logic of "Warriors are not allowed to do damage, tank only kthx bye" I'm not going to bother trying to change your opinion on that.

    Fury does out dps Arms, I don't see how you can put this any other way when it inherently does. Second if your MTing not as prot then either your dps is way under geared, terrible, or their holding back to not agro all 3 of which are bad. Also if your tanking bosses in Kara without tanking gear then either your healers are over geared or extremely good. As well heroics don't mean shit so I'm not sure why your bringing them up.
    On another note, not all guilds are filled to the brim with awesome rogues with great latency that always land their kicks. I'm not a rogue. If my MS can make the difference of a fight being a success and a wipe, then it's a viable tactic.

    Being able to kick isn't being awesome its not being mediocre, also while were at it a Fury warrior can pummel as well, mages can CS, and I believe locks can use spell lock (not 100% sure about this one). There is basically no reason that any mob that casts a heal should ever get it if off.
    Or you could just operate under the assumption that what was true at level 60 is true at 70, arms does no damage at all, MS sucks, can't tank without being prot... Your choice.

    I'm so confused now as all of what you said wasn't true at 60 and is mostly true now. You could MT as non prot at 60 and do decently well, now you really can't unless your dps holds back. I also never said Arms does no damage, I just said it does less than Fury which is true. I also never said MS sucked so would you stop making shit up and actually take quotes in the context their written, but of course then you couldn't support your arguments so you can't do that.

    khain on
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Seryk wrote: »
    Seg wrote: »
    Seryk wrote: »
    Resilience for the win.

    Could you explain this a bit, from what other people have been saying, Resilience gear really isn't all that useful in PvE situations. How often do your healers complain about you? How many are focused on keeping you alive?

    Resilience reduces your chance to be crit just like defense. Resilience has the added bonus of reducing spellcrit damage, unlike defense.

    My healers never complain.. I'm pretty sure it's not just because they like me because I tanked all of the runs to get my nethers for my lionheart champ.

    PvE mobs don't crit. And in terms of itemization cost, Defense gets you uncritable far faster and easier then resilience ever will.

    Thomamelas on
  • SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    khain wrote: »

    Being able to kick isn't being awesome its not being mediocre, also while were at it a Fury warrior can pummel as well, mages can CS, and I believe locks can use spell lock (not 100% sure about this one). There is basically no reason that any mob that casts a heal should ever get it if off.

    And Warriors with Shield Bash, which has the added bonus of generating extra threat.

    Seg on
  • SerykSeryk Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    khain wrote: »
    Seryk wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Seryk wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Kainy is pretty much right, there is zero advantage to being prot in arena and basically no advantage to having MS in kara.

    Are you serious? Alright well... aside from the fact that there are healing mobs and it slows them down. MS is a warrior's main dps skill. While you might not need the debuff a warrior not using MS is like a frost mage not shooting frostbolts.

    Unless I'm totally forgetting something no boss in kara heals where it actually matters and I don't believe there is anywhere else either, but if there is then tell to use wounding and your fine. While MS can be somewhat raid viable, fury is most likley a better spec for dps, but this entire discussion is worthless because you totally fucking missed the context of the question. He asked if protection spec and arena are mutually exclusive and they pretty much are as I said and being partial protection to get MS makes you a lousy MT and still gimps you in arenas.

    Illhoof and Juliet come to mind.

    If you don't interrupt Juliet you are retarded and deserve to wipe and on Illhoof I guess its ok, but you could tell a rogue to use wounding or just break the chains and he doesn't heal that much. It might be better on Illhoof as your probably decrease his healing enough to gain a dps advantage over Fury, but specing for one fight that isn't very hard is meh.

    I'm tired of hearing that Fury inherently out DPSes Arms. Also I've MTed a lot of bosses in Karazhan and a ton of heroics without any +defense gear aside from my shield, just the shit that's on my armory page and a sword and board. You don't need to be prot. But hey, if you're into the everquesting logic of "Warriors are not allowed to do damage, tank only kthx bye" I'm not going to bother trying to change your opinion on that.

    Fury does out dps Arms, I don't see how you can put this any other way when it inherently does. Second if your MTing not as prot then either your dps is way under geared, terrible, or their holding back to not agro all 3 of which are bad. Also if your tanking bosses in Kara without tanking gear then either your healers are over geared or extremely good. As well heroics don't mean shit so I'm not sure why your bringing them up.
    On another note, not all guilds are filled to the brim with awesome rogues with great latency that always land their kicks. I'm not a rogue. If my MS can make the difference of a fight being a success and a wipe, then it's a viable tactic.

    Being able to kick isn't being awesome its not being mediocre, also while were at it a Fury warrior can pummel as well, mages can CS, and I believe locks can use spell lock (not 100% sure about this one). There is basically no reason that any mob that casts a heal should ever get it if off.
    Or you could just operate under the assumption that what was true at level 60 is true at 70, arms does no damage at all, MS sucks, can't tank without being prot... Your choice.

    I'm so confused now as all of what you said wasn't true at 60 and is mostly true now. You could MT as non prot at 60 and do decently well, now you really can't unless your dps holds back. I also never said Arms does no damage, I just said it does less than Fury which is true. I also never said MS sucked so would you stop making shit up and actually take quotes in the context their written, but of course then you couldn't support your arguments so you can't do that.

    Like I said earlier, it's not really worth my time to try and convince someone that doesn't know what they're talking about why Arms is stronger than Fury even in PvE. I would love to see someone actually prove the contrary but since that's not possible, go nuts trying to figure out a way to do that.

    DPS doesn't need to hold back on a non-prot tank, never did, never will.

    I'm not saying you said any of those things, I'm restating classic perceived "truths" a lot of people believe about warriors.

    And I'm not exactly sure how I'm supposed to back up my arguments anymore, suggestions would help, so I could do such things and maybe re-adjust your perceptions. Quite frankly if more people and guilds had a more accurate perception of warriors and their abilities I think this game would be a lot more fun to play.

    Seryk on
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    The way to back up your arguments would be to make a spreadsheet calculating Arms dps in say average gear from Kara, SSC and BT and then comparing it to Fury dps in gear from the same areas. You could do the same with threat generation calculations.

    khain on
  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    See, the problem is, you can state your truths, and they may even be truths, in your experience.

    Where as many more people's experiences show that fury is better DPS for PvE, that non-prot warriors cannot tank effectively in Kara and the like, that DPS has to hold back to account for the threat differences.

    I would never tell someone to spec a certain way for unless I was paying for them to play, but that doesn't mean the advantages to a suitable spec for a certain role aren't glaringly obvious.

    Quite frankly, the burden of proof is on the people who want to prove the off-spec role as viable. Just ask balance druids, paladin tanks, etc when they first were breaking into the raiding scheme. And don't even get me started on feral tanks.

    Bigity on
  • SerykSeryk Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    If I knew a fury warrior in equal gear and skill level I'd definitely do some tracking of our damage to try and prove something out of it, but I don't. I don't know a single fury warrior. I knew a lot of fury warrior and throughout our collective testing we all went arms.

    I'm not saying every warrior ever should be arms and that their is no reason to do anything else. But what I am saying is that arms is underrated massively, and it's potential usually ends up being completely wasted.

    Seryk on
  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Go to this link and read the spreadsheet.
    This should clear up the arms v. fury for DPS debate.

    silence1186 on
  • KainyKainy Pimpin' and righteous Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Wow, there has been some dumb bullshit spoken in this last page.

    DPS doesn't need to hold back on non-prot warriors? Are you fucking kidding me? DPS has to hold back for PROT warriors! How does having less threat gen (no defiance, no SS) somehow make it possible for DPS to go all-out?

    Wow.

    Just wow.

    Kainy on
    IcyLiquid wrote: »
    There's anti-fuckery code in there now :) Sorry :)
  • SerykSeryk Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Kainy wrote: »
    Wow, there has been some dumb bullshit spoken in this last page.

    DPS doesn't need to hold back on non-prot warriors? Are you fucking kidding me? DPS has to hold back for PROT warriors! How does having less threat gen (no defiance, no SS) somehow make it possible for DPS to go all-out?

    Wow.

    Just wow.

    This isn't a tough concept to understand:

    On Mobs that can be taunted: the taunt mechanic handles keeping you on top of the threat list.

    On Mobs that cannot be taunted: Defiance is only a 15% multiplicative bonus onto of the existing 130% threat generation of defensive stance. Most all tanking type abilities do not scale in any way for their threat generation, whereas if your threat generation is coming solely from damage then it scales each time you get a new piece of gear. Thus creating a situation where the better damage you deal the more threat you can generate at a 130% modifier. You don't need shield slam at that point to push out enough threat to beat out other classes threat.

    Seryk on
  • KainyKainy Pimpin' and righteous Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Man I'm glad you're Alliance so I never have to deal with you attempting to tank.

    Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled Warrior thread.

    Kainy on
    IcyLiquid wrote: »
    There's anti-fuckery code in there now :) Sorry :)
  • SerykSeryk Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Attempting makes it sound like I'm not succeeding at tanking everything I ever try at.

    Seryk on
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Seryk wrote: »
    Kainy wrote: »
    Wow, there has been some dumb bullshit spoken in this last page.

    DPS doesn't need to hold back on non-prot warriors? Are you fucking kidding me? DPS has to hold back for PROT warriors! How does having less threat gen (no defiance, no SS) somehow make it possible for DPS to go all-out?

    Wow.

    Just wow.

    This isn't a tough concept to understand:

    On Mobs that can be taunted: the taunt mechanic handles keeping you on top of the threat list.

    On Mobs that cannot be taunted: Defiance is only a 15% multiplicative bonus onto of the existing 130% threat generation of defensive stance. Most all tanking type abilities do not scale in any way for their threat generation, whereas if your threat generation is coming solely from damage then it scales each time you get a new piece of gear. Thus creating a situation where the better damage you deal the more threat you can generate at a 130% modifier. You don't need shield slam at that point to push out enough threat to beat out other classes threat.

    Um, are you serious?

    khain on
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Seryk wrote: »
    Kainy wrote: »
    Wow, there has been some dumb bullshit spoken in this last page.

    DPS doesn't need to hold back on non-prot warriors? Are you fucking kidding me? DPS has to hold back for PROT warriors! How does having less threat gen (no defiance, no SS) somehow make it possible for DPS to go all-out?

    Wow.

    Just wow.

    This isn't a tough concept to understand:

    On Mobs that can be taunted: the taunt mechanic handles keeping you on top of the threat list.

    On Mobs that cannot be taunted: Defiance is only a 15% multiplicative bonus onto of the existing 130% threat generation of defensive stance. Most all tanking type abilities do not scale in any way for their threat generation, whereas if your threat generation is coming solely from damage then it scales each time you get a new piece of gear. Thus creating a situation where the better damage you deal the more threat you can generate at a 130% modifier. You don't need shield slam at that point to push out enough threat to beat out other classes threat.

    Taunt doesn't move you to the top of threat list. It only gives you the threat of the person who has aggro. If you have aggro...taunt gives you exactly zero threat. Zero. Tanks who can only hold aggro via taunt shouldn't be raiding. And Shield slam does scale upwards. It's almost impossible to be in Kara and not have at least 300 block value.

    Thomamelas on
  • HamurabiHamurabi MiamiRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    So how far can I take this wonderful Sunder-less tanking? I've been having pretty good luck with it, even in a five-man with two warlocks and an overzealous Shadow priest.

    Hamurabi on
  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    So how far can I take this wonderful Sunder-less tanking? I've been having pretty good luck with it, even in a five-man with two warlocks and an overzealous Shadow priest.


    Personally I made good use of Sunders while tanking in 5 mans, I just never bothered to put a full 5 sunders on before I start devastating. The reason for this is simple; Unless you're going up against a single-mob pull that will absorb a lot of damage, the target is likely to be dead before you get much use out of 5 sunders. 2-3 sunders and a few devastates is all I will usually have time for before your average trash mob drops dead. With bosses that's a whole other story.

    I have to say that I noticed something about the PVE DPS posted by the OP. One was the lack of improved cleave, one is the inclusion of Deep Wounds.

    Don't underestimate the damage yon can pull off with cleave. It's sick when you have all of your buffs going.

    The buff to crits that you get afterwards is useful, yes, but bigger crits mean bigger aggro. What's more, deep wounds is a BIG liability. If you target a mob that's about to sheeped, and that first of yours crits, that mob is now immune to crowd control and now the group has to adapt to fix your mistake.

    There are cases in big raids where accidentally dotting a mob means the raid will die. I remember when I was arms/fury back when my guild was working on Ahn'Qiraj. I had to avoid DPSing the eggs for the Buru encounter because I'd inevitably land a crit, and on ocassion that crit (with then dotted the egg with deep wounds) caused the egg to come very close to dying prematurely, and it did at least once which caused a problem for the raid.

    Deep wounds is good for soloing, bad for PVE. Improved Cleave is great all around. I could make more points, but I'm not a master here.

    Goatmon on
    Switch Friend Code: SW-6680-6709-4204


  • SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    So how far can I take this wonderful Sunder-less tanking? I've been having pretty good luck with it, even in a five-man with two warlocks and an overzealous Shadow priest.

    How do you avoid using sunders? I tended to use them when Revenge was on cooldown.

    Seg on
  • HamurabiHamurabi MiamiRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Seg wrote: »
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    So how far can I take this wonderful Sunder-less tanking? I've been having pretty good luck with it, even in a five-man with two warlocks and an overzealous Shadow priest.

    How do you avoid using sunders? I tended to use them when Revenge was on cooldown.

    Generally, my routine is Charge > Shield Slam > Shield Block > Revenge, and then I basically spam Shield Block + Revenge until Shield Slam comes back up. This is for trash.

    But tonight, on a breeze-through vanilla Underbog run [with the two warlocks + overzealous Shadow priest], I didn't Sunder Hungarfen, Ghaz'an, Muse'lek or the Stalker at all -- just Shield Slam, Shield Block and Revenge. And I held them fine. Honetly, the time it takes me to Sunder is where I'm most at risk of losing aggro, in my experience.

    I should really get around to putting Heroic Strike on my Def Stance bar and using that when Revenge and Shield Slam are on CD.

    Hamurabi on
  • SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    Seg wrote: »
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    So how far can I take this wonderful Sunder-less tanking? I've been having pretty good luck with it, even in a five-man with two warlocks and an overzealous Shadow priest.

    How do you avoid using sunders? I tended to use them when Revenge was on cooldown.

    Generally, my routine is Charge > Shield Slam > Shield Block > Revenge, and then I basically spam Shield Block + Revenge until Shield Slam comes back up. This is for trash.

    But tonight, on a breeze-through vanilla Underbog run [with the two warlocks + overzealous Shadow priest], I didn't Sunder Hungarfen, Ghaz'an, Muse'lek or the Stalker at all -- just Shield Slam, Shield Block and Revenge. And I held them fine. Honetly, the time it takes me to Sunder is where I'm most at risk of losing aggro, in my experience.

    I should really get around to putting Heroic Strike on my Def Stance bar and using that when Revenge and Shield Slam are on CD.

    Because HS happens when your swing does, you can queue up HS and then hit Revenge and HS will follow your Revenge.

    Sunder is normally something I do if I have the rage, it is a nice instant attack that fills the gap that is open while I wait for Revenge to be available.

    Seg on
  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    Seg wrote: »
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    So how far can I take this wonderful Sunder-less tanking? I've been having pretty good luck with it, even in a five-man with two warlocks and an overzealous Shadow priest.

    How do you avoid using sunders? I tended to use them when Revenge was on cooldown.

    Generally, my routine is Charge > Shield Slam > Shield Block > Revenge, and then I basically spam Shield Block + Revenge until Shield Slam comes back up. This is for trash.

    But tonight, on a breeze-through vanilla Underbog run [with the two warlocks + overzealous Shadow priest], I didn't Sunder Hungarfen, Ghaz'an, Muse'lek or the Stalker at all -- just Shield Slam, Shield Block and Revenge. And I held them fine. Honetly, the time it takes me to Sunder is where I'm most at risk of losing aggro, in my experience.

    I should really get around to putting Heroic Strike on my Def Stance bar and using that when Revenge and Shield Slam are on CD.

    What's Vanilla Underbog? Non-Heroic?

    Goatmon on
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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    One important thing that people seem to be ignoring about arms that makes it great in raids is Blood Frenzy. On a melee heavy raid, 4% is no small amount. More threat for tanks too.

    Mild Confusion on
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