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[WoW] Warriors: L2Tank Here

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Posts

  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Goatmon wrote: »
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    So how far can I take this wonderful Sunder-less tanking? I've been having pretty good luck with it, even in a five-man with two warlocks and an overzealous Shadow priest.

    I have to say that I noticed something about the PVE DPS posted by the OP. One was the lack of improved cleave, one is the inclusion of Deep Wounds.

    Don't underestimate the damage yon can pull off with cleave. It's sick when you have all of your buffs going.

    Unless I'm mistaken there is basically no reason to use cleave if your targeting a single mob, which is the most common thing in a raid, and therefore there is basically no reason to get the skill.
    The buff to crits that you get afterwards is useful, yes, but bigger crits mean bigger aggro. What's more, deep wounds is a BIG liability. If you target a mob that's about to sheeped, and that first of yours crits, that mob is now immune to crowd control and now the group has to adapt to fix your mistake.

    There are cases in big raids where accidentally dotting a mob means the raid will die. I remember when I was arms/fury back when my guild was working on Ahn'Qiraj. I had to avoid DPSing the eggs for the Buru encounter because I'd inevitably land a crit, and on ocassion that crit (with then dotted the egg with deep wounds) caused the egg to come very close to dying prematurely, and it did at least once which caused a problem for the raid.

    Deep wounds is good for soloing, bad for PVE. Improved Cleave is great all around. I could make more points, but I'm not a master here.

    Crits generate the exact same agro per damage point as a normal attack so your first sentence is weird. Second not taking deep wounds because you might attack a mob thats going to be CC'd is retarded. How about just not attacking a mob thats going to be CC'd. I can see not taking it if your raid fills the 40 debuff slots, but not for the reason you gave.

    Mild Confusion: 4% is good, but most raids don't stack melee dps anymore as they are disadvantaged on a ton of fights, the normal setup I see at least is to have just have one melee dps group and if you do the math for that I believe the extra dps from a fury warrior will trump the 4% extra damage to the 5 people. If you run a melee heavy raid then it would be good, but that seems to be a uncommon.

    khain on
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Not that I disagree with you ( I am Fury myself) but that 4% helps more that just warriors and rogues. Shamans and hunter pets also benefit from that. As well as any dps pallies you may or may not have. Not that I can raid at the moment (nerf Iraq lol) but I plan to pvp when I get home. I don't believe that fury warrior dps is so leet that arms won't come close, and even with only 5 total melee dps in the raid, that should be, roughly, 20% increase total.

    And wouldn't a tank, be it warrior, druid, or pally, benifit from the 4% extra damage as well? Raising the aggro threash hold even a little can't be that bad.

    Mild Confusion on
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  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Um, I hold back on prot tanks, nevermind non-prot tanks. All good dps does. (This is from a mage and especially a balance-spec druid)

    Derrick on
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  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    khain wrote: »
    Unless I'm mistaken there is basically no reason to use cleave if your targeting a single mob, which is the most common thing in a raid, and therefore there is basically no reason to get the skill.

    There are plenty of multi-target opportunities in 5 mans, including heroic mode which makes it very viable. PVE isn't all about the big raids anymore.
    khain wrote: »
    Crits generate the exact same agro per damage point as a normal attack so your first sentence is weird.

    Not really. Working on consistent damage is better than getting your crit damage as high as possible. Warriosr have no built in anti-threat skills, so the more damage you do, the more you have to monitor yourself and hold back.
    khain wrote: »
    Second not taking deep wounds because you might attack a mob thats going to be CC'd is retarded. How about just not attacking a mob thats going to be CC'd.

    Yeah, that works in theory. But, then, there's that whole "humans make mistakes" thing which kinda throws a wrench in the works.

    It's all about the human factor, and the reality is that you can't predict how things will go every time. Especially in a heroic, where accidentally breaking sheep, and everyone does it now and then, can mean making it impossible to CC that one extra mob. From there it forces the tank to switch targets while the loose mob is 2-shotting the mage and/or the healer. I've played many roles , and I've seen it happen so many times, from the perspective of the tank, from the perspective of the healer, and as a DPSer. People make mistakes, and any passive ability that effectively punishes you for making that mistake is a liability. That is why I dislike deep wounds.

    Goatmon on
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  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Goatmon wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Crits generate the exact same agro per damage point as a normal attack so your first sentence is weird.

    Not really. Working on consistent damage is better than getting your crit damage as high as possible. Warriosr have no built in anti-threat skills, so the more damage you do, the more you have to monitor yourself and hold back.

    The burst threat of crits shouldn't be a problem unless you're dpsing right underneath your threat cap. If you're right underneath the threat cap that either means you didn't allow the tank a little bit of time to generate threat, or you're generating more threat per second than the tank, which you shouldn't be since you can't lower your threat. You could have a 40% crit rate, but if you're doing 1000 threat per second, and so is the tank, and the tank has a 15,000 threat margin over you, you're fine.

    Septus on
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  • AkiraAkira Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    As a (mid 40s) Fury warrior, and just in general, what kind of weapon speed should I be looking for?

    Also with Heroic Strike, does the damage change based on weapon speed, or is it always a flat addition?

    Akira on
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  • KainyKainy Pimpin' and righteous Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Weapon speed is mostly irrelevant for Fury.

    Faster is better for rage dumping with HS and rage generation with unbridled wrath. Slower is better for whirlwind's damage. It also doesn't matter for flurry, since faster weapons will proc it more often, but also eat the charges faster - 25% faster for a 70 DPS weapon is always going to be the same damage increase over time.

    The only important weapon speed issue for Fury that I see is that you want both weapons to be roughly the same speed, or have a faster main hand, so that your main hand has a chance to use 2 of the 3 flurry charges. They're wasted on offhand attacks with the damage penalty.

    Anyone with more Fury-ing experience feel free to correct me, but this is what I've noticed leveling.

    Kainy on
    IcyLiquid wrote: »
    There's anti-fuckery code in there now :) Sorry :)
  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Kainy wrote: »
    Weapon speed is mostly irrelevant for Fury.

    Faster is better for rage dumping with HS and rage generation with unbridled wrath. Slower is better for whirlwind's damage. It also doesn't matter for flurry, since faster weapons will proc it more often, but also eat the charges faster - 25% faster for a 70 DPS weapon is always going to be the same damage increase over time.

    The only important weapon speed issue for Fury that I see is that you want both weapons to be roughly the same speed, or have a faster main hand, so that your main hand has a chance to use 2 of the 3 flurry charges. They're wasted on offhand attacks with the damage penalty.

    Anyone with more Fury-ing experience feel free to correct me, but this is what I've noticed leveling.

    Well, for overall damage it's good to have as lower MH and a faster offhand. Heroic strikes don't cost more for slower weapons, but the damage is much better. Of course, this isn't that important until later levels. FOr now just stick to the best weapons you can get your hands on.

    Goatmon on
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  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    If you were spamming heroic strike, you'd definitely get more damage out of that with fast weapons, than slow weapon.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Heroic Strike spam isn't really a very efficient method of DPS threatwise or ragewise... probably better off to tune your fury weapons towards maximizing Whirlwind -- slow mainhand.

    Dehumanized on
  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Septus wrote: »
    If you were spamming heroic strike, you'd definitely get more damage out of that with fast weapons, than slow weapon.


    To an extent, yeah. But getting big crits are also fun, which is why I have much love for my Planar Edge. I especially love it when traveling around with an enhancement shaman, who brings along the +AP buff, and WF totem.
    Heroic Strike spam isn't really a very efficient method of DPS threatwise or ragewise... probably better off to tune your fury weapons towards maximizing Whirlwind -- slow mainhand.

    Whirlwind is also very good, but it's best utilized against 3 or 4 mobs. When just dealing with two I get a lot more use out of cleave. It's not an extra attack, but the bonus damage is extremely nice if you're specced for it. I recall getting a 1k improved cleave crit soloing once, which made me pretty happy.

    Goatmon on
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  • KainyKainy Pimpin' and righteous Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Uh

    With Battle Shout and rampage going, I get 1k+ crits with my 2.6 main hand, and higher with Cleave, without the talent.

    Whirlwind is useful due to its nature as an additional attack, and while it does more damage against more targets, it's still extremely useful against a single target. Cleave is a good rage dump vs. 2 targets with a drood/pally tank, to be sure, but HS has its place.

    But Goatmon is right, the highest DPS/statted weapons are probably your best bet, while leveling toward 70, instead of worrying about little things like speed. I've leveled with 2.7 axes and 1.7 daggers in both my main and offhands at times, and it doesn't matter a tremendous amount.

    Kainy on
    IcyLiquid wrote: »
    There's anti-fuckery code in there now :) Sorry :)
  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Kainy wrote: »
    Uh

    With Battle Shout and rampage going, I get 1k+ crits with my 2.6 main hand, and higher with Cleave, without the talent.

    Yeah, well my gear sucks. I still have some adamantite plate going. >_>

    Goatmon on
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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Pre expansion, I was my guilds top dps and my experiance leans me toward slower weapons. UW should never be a factor in your weapon choice, you will almost always have the rage you need.

    The key really is to use as many instants as possible. You just need to know when best to use them. At the start of a fight, get behind the mob and use VR if it is up, other words, keep BT and WW on cooldown at all times. For me, I spec a little into arms for both anger managment and imp OP. I think imp OP is very underestimated in a fury build. Sure you have to stance dance and lose a lot of rage, but I have never had a rage issue where going to battle stance fucked me over. It will almost always crit, so flurry and maybe even windfury. Just don't switch stances when BT or WW are almost ready to use.

    I never really liked to use HS too much. Not that doesn't give out decent damage for a rage dump, but I don't like to skate the aggro line. At the 20% mark, you want to make sure to be well behind the tank on the threat list. So instead, spamstring. Hamstring may not do a lot of damage, but it is instant, no cooldown, AND can crit. Do that inbetween cooldowns. It will also give you a chance for any procs you may have to go off IF they are in your main hand. That includes crusader or mongoose.

    My pattern is usually: Execute(when up) > VR(when up) > BT > WW > OP (when up) > Hamstring > HS or Cleave

    Deathwish should almost always be on cooldown. In a fast fight, use it early so it is up the whole time. But on a long fight, save it till the last 20% where you do your execute spam. There are very few ways to increase execute damage. But one way is through deathwish, and that is a fuckton. At the same time as deathwish + execute, use recklessness. That is why I never liked to use HS, because using, DW + execute + recklessness = monster damage or monster aggro. And if you are skating the aggro meter just to get a few dps in using HS, then you are fucking your over all dps at the end of a fight where a boss usually berserks and needs to go down as fast as possible.

    Always look to improve your white damage, most of your dps comes from regular hits. Never pass up +hit if it's available to you. Getting around 8-10% to hit will give you much more dps and rage.

    Now, for me, I pick str/ap over crit. Not always, only if they are more or less equal. In a way, you can think of a crit as a proc, one that does 200% damage :D But, you need to look at a damage table to get this, a glancing blow cannot crit (on white damage) BUT will still do damage based on your AP. You can have 100% hit and 100% crit, but you will still get about 40% glancing blows AND some dodges in there. However, ap will always be there. If it is a glancing blow, crit, or a normal hit, ap will make it hit harder. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying crit is weak. But on decent fury gear, you will already have a high amount of crit naturally. But when it came to enchants and gems, and they were equal , I sided with ap/str. On that note, rememer that Blessing of Kings only increases your base stats, so it will give you 10% more strength, not 10% more ap. Think of that too when looking at stats.

    I guess the true key to being a good fury warrior is to know exactly what each move does and when to use it, along with not getting too close to the aggro meter so you can burn a target at the end.

    Mild Confusion on
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  • KainyKainy Pimpin' and righteous Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Good post, but what the hell is VC?

    Kainy on
    IcyLiquid wrote: »
    There's anti-fuckery code in there now :) Sorry :)
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    My bad, meant VR for victory rush.

    Mild Confusion on
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  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Death Executes are definitely a nice source of DPS when a chance to pull them off comes along. Personally I never bother with whirlwinds against a single target, though.

    Goatmon on
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  • CharusCharus Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Goatmon wrote: »
    Death Executes are definitely a nice source of DPS when a chance to pull them off comes along. Personally I never bother with whirlwinds against a single target, though.

    Maybe you should try it. Instant attacks that do full weapon damage are great things, no matter how many mobs you are fighting.

    Charus on
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  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    For what it costs, I'd rather just stick with Bloodthirst. There's no bonus damage so it's not ideal for single targets unless you're arms or 2h fury. I mean, if I'm full on rage then sure I have nothing to lose by burning a whirlwind or two. Otherwise, it's rather inefficient for single target DPS.

    Goatmon on
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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    You really should try using whirlwind in your damage rotation. Being an instant attack brings lots of additional stuff. One, it will not inturrupt your regular swings, so rage generation will be fine unlike with with HS or cleave. 2nd, there is no hidden rage cost that also goes along with HS and cleave. 3rd, any proc you have in your main hand, such as an enchant or weapon damage proc, will have a higher chance of going off if you use as many instants as possible. Don't forget windfury. Trust me, even with a fast mainhand weapon, you will see a dps increase.

    Mild Confusion on
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  • TavTav Irish Minister for DefenceRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Can we get a re-name for this thread? Just since its more about warriors in general rather then about tanking...

    Tav on
  • SeptusSeptus Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    It's a joke phrase. It seems fairly clear that it's the place to talk about warriors.

    Septus on
    PSN: Kurahoshi1
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Yeah, this is the place to talk about all aspects of the warrior class. We all like to share knowledge here about the entirety of the class, be it PvP, DPS, or tanking. I find that people who at the very least read the class forums here are that much better at the game. Ideas are shared and improved upon, then passed along again.

    Try having a discussion like this on the official forums. You'll drive yourself nuts. The responces all fall into certain catagories:

    A. Noone will read your post and it will die.

    B. Someone will flame it and it will die.

    C. Someone will partially answer your question and it will die.

    D. Someone will give you an answer that may or may not be right, everyone will disagree, troll, and flame each other, then the thread will die.

    E. You will die on the inside.

    Mild Confusion on
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  • Iron WeaselIron Weasel Dillon! You son of a bitch!Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Yeah, this is the place to talk about all aspects of the warrior class. We all like to share knowledge here about the entirety of the class, be it PvP, DPS, or tanking. I find that people who at the very least read the class forums here are that much better at the game. Ideas are shared and improved upon, then passed along again.

    Try having a discussion like this on the official forums. You'll drive yourself nuts. The responces all fall into certain catagories:

    A. Noone will read your post and it will die.

    B. Someone will flame it and it will die.

    C. Someone will partially answer your question and it will die.

    D. Someone will give you an answer that may or may not be right, everyone will disagree, troll, and flame each other, then the thread will die.

    E. You will die on the inside.

    F. All of the above.

    Iron Weasel on
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  • HamurabiHamurabi MiamiRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Wonderful Sunderless tanking.

    Loving my Prot respec. ^____^

    Hamurabi on
  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    What do you do for the 3 seconds you can't use Shield Slam or Revenge?

    silence1186 on
  • HamurabiHamurabi MiamiRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    What do you do for the 3 seconds you can't use Shield Slam or Revenge?

    Shield Block, or Heroic Strike. I haven't tanked too many "real" 5-mans, but I did a Shadow Laboratories last night with Hijou, and some other Frost mage, and I seemed to hold aggro pretty well with that routine... though Frost is supposed to be the ololweaksauce DPS tree now, and they might've been throttling their damage, 'cause I was 69 and using Taunt way more than I should have to...

    Hamurabi on
  • SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    If you are using Taunt more then you are used to, then perhaps it is time to start using Sunder while you wait for Revenge and Shield Slam to be usable again.

    Seg on
  • HamurabiHamurabi MiamiRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Well, I was more trying to imply that it might've been the fact that I was 69 at the time, and that I'm way undergeared on Ham that lead to using Taunt so much. These were raid-decked mages [and a rogue who bought his character, whom I had no problem keeping aggro over] I was trying to tank for, too.

    That routine has proven itself with overzealous Shadow priests who have a Curse of Shadow minion in the group, I might add. ^_^

    Hamurabi on
  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    What do you do for the 3 seconds you can't use Shield Slam or Revenge?

    Shield Block, or Heroic Strike. I haven't tanked too many "real" 5-mans, but I did a Shadow Laboratories last night with Hijou, and some other Frost mage, and I seemed to hold aggro pretty well with that routine... though Frost is supposed to be the ololweaksauce DPS tree now, and they might've been throttling their damage, 'cause I was 69 and using Taunt way more than I should have to...

    Frost nowadays is the survival spec, not the uber DPS. Try partying with a suicidal fire mage and you'll be crying yourself to sleep trying to keep up with the threat. It's characters like those that forced me to make a rule for tanking in 5 mans (Especially in pugs); If you blast my mob before I have a single sunder on it, after being warned, I am not going to taunt it off you. People tend to learn pretty quick.

    Goatmon on
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  • Beyond NormalBeyond Normal Lord Phender Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Goatmon wrote: »
    Hamurabi wrote: »
    What do you do for the 3 seconds you can't use Shield Slam or Revenge?

    Shield Block, or Heroic Strike. I haven't tanked too many "real" 5-mans, but I did a Shadow Laboratories last night with Hijou, and some other Frost mage, and I seemed to hold aggro pretty well with that routine... though Frost is supposed to be the ololweaksauce DPS tree now, and they might've been throttling their damage, 'cause I was 69 and using Taunt way more than I should have to...

    Frost nowadays is the survival spec, not the uber DPS. Try partying with a suicidal fire mage and you'll be crying yourself to sleep trying to keep up with the threat. It's characters like those that forced me to make a rule for tanking in 5 mans (Especially in pugs); If you blast my mob before I have a single sunder on it, after being warned, I am not going to taunt it off you. People tend to learn pretty quick.

    I have always used this tactic, but I never tell the person. They can figure shit out on their own. Wanna be l33t Deepee ess? Do it on your own time, or in PvP where that shit doesn't matter.

    Beyond Normal on
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  • GoatmonGoatmon Companion of Kess Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Well the thing about it,m is that some people don't care if you don't taunt if off them because they're good enough to survive with a mob trying to kill them. If that's the case, then blast away all you want, just don't yank everything off me and fuck with the CCed targets. But if you're going to yank aggro, then run in circles like a chicken with it's head cut off and yell at me for not keeping aggro, then learn to control your fucking DPS.

    Goatmon on
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  • SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Quite often if some DPS wants to pull a mob off me in a p5 situation I let him have it, my number one job is to keep the healer from getting mushed, if that means letting a single target go and holding on to a couple more, that single target will go.

    Seg on
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Here's a question I've been trying to find the answer to.

    Do abilities like HS, SS, and devastate that do damage and threat cause more aggro when they do more damage?

    And do they cause more threat when they crit? Or it all a flat rate regardless of damage done?

    I never could find a satisfactory answer to that.

    Mild Confusion on
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  • SegSeg Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    As far as I can tell, they do the same base threat regardless, and then the damage that is dealt also creates threat.

    Seg on
  • KartanKartan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    So yes, more damage means more threat, in the same way more white damage means more threat as well.

    Kartan on
  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Threat.

    Threat.

    You don't have to type with a lisp.

    Bigity on
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Sweet, thanks.

    By the way Bigity...Is that Adolph Hitler or Glass Joe?

    Mild Confusion on
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  • BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    LOL.

    It's not Hitler! It's the end boss from Bionic Commando, which strongly resembled Hitler :)

    EDIT: Speaking of, it's an animated giff. Since when did those stop working on the forums?

    Bigity on
  • Admiral AmbiguousAdmiral Ambiguous Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Am I supposed to be running from Murmur's Sonic Boom, or staying there and eating it to keep the party from getting Resonance?

    Party wiped three times on the guy then quit. Every time I fell, I look up and everyone is near death. It's not like he kills us one after the other.

    I tried to run from the Sonic Boom then Intercepting back in. However, I was still getting the slow effect so running outside the circle apparently wasn't saving me from the Boom.

    So, do you typically stay in and take it for the team, or am I just doing it wrong?

    Admiral Ambiguous on
This discussion has been closed.