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Why does the DS have a second screen?

ÆthelredÆthelred Registered User regular
edited July 2007 in Games and Technology
Note: this isn't a troll thread; I have a DS and love it to bits.

I remember back way the DS was announced and all the jokes were going around about how the second screen would just be used for a second camera angle, or a map. Now, the DS is a massive success, but all of that seems to me to be down to one thing: the touch screen. It's the touch screen that allows for the interactive elements in games that make the DS so appealing to casual gamers and such a breath of fresh air to old hands. The purest examples of Nintendo's new gaming philosophy, Brain Age and Nintendogs, rely upon the touch screen for their success: for utter control simplicity and a greater sense of interaction.

The name of the device, standing for "Dual Screen" seems to me to show a misunderstanding of why the DS is special. Did Nintendo really think the two screens would be the selling point? In the introductory information for the system I recall it always being generally prioritised above the touch screen.

I've 6 or 7 games for the DS now and yet to see a really compelling implementation of the two screens. It's useful in Advance Wars to see unit information, it's handy to see further vertically in Sonic Rush, but there's no brilliant use of the two that makes me wish it was there. And if there were, it would be vastly out-weighed by the sheer amount of games that make inane use of it: even Nintendo are guilty of this with games like New Super Mario Bros and Wario Ware.

Would anyone really not swap the second screen for making the first bigger and brighter? What games do you think use both well? Please enlighten me..

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Æthelred on
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Posts

  • yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Personally, the sheer amount of games where it's USEFUL, and HANDY is enough that I don't want the dual screen concept to go away. I won't cry if it does, but I'd be happy if it does not.

    yalborap on
  • atkbobatkbob Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Because if it had one screen it'd be the SS D:

    atkbob on
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  • deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    One big touch screen is more expensive than the two small screens the DS has.

    deadonthestreet on
  • HtR-LaserHtR-Laser Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Really the reason I'm most thankful for the top screen is for the times when it's detrimental for my hand to be blocking the screen, like in Metroid Prime Hunters or something. Otherwise, it's just convenient.

    HtR-Laser on
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    The folding twin screens gives it a lot of screen real-estate in a compact form. You're right, it's not really crucial, but some games make really good use of it and for the rest it's a nice bonus.

    Zek on
  • atkbobatkbob Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Oh, and games like Metroid Prime: Hunters wouldn't work with one big screen. The touch system wouldn't work with one wide screen because for a lot of people they would cover half the screen with their hand when touching something on the left side (for right handed people). The DS works not because it has two screens, but because they are on top of one another, not to each other's side. I personally would love to see the next Nintendo portable have a big widescreen on the top clamshell-half and a same-size-as-now touch screen on the bottom, with buttons on either side. That would give a nice screen for games/movies/whatever and still keep a touch-pad or map screen available.

    Edit: It's just coincidence HtR-Laser and I said basically the same thing.

    atkbob on
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  • TelemachusTelemachus uncomfy Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    atkbob wrote: »
    Because if it had one screen it'd be the SS D:

    I laughed.

    Telemachus on
  • AdrienAdrien Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Zek wrote: »
    The folding twin screens gives it a lot of screen real-estate in a compact form. You're right, it's not really crucial, but some games make really good use of it and for the rest it's a nice bonus.
    One big touch screen is more expensive than the two small screens the DS has.

    I expect that's your answer right there. It just fits much better with what it's all about.

    Adrien on
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  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Adrien wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    The folding twin screens gives it a lot of screen real-estate in a compact form. You're right, it's not really crucial, but some games make really good use of it and for the rest it's a nice bonus.
    One big touch screen is more expensive than the two small screens the DS has.

    I expect that's your answer right there. It just fits much better with what it's all about.

    I'd agree with that. I'm also a much bigger fan of clamshell design in general for any and all of my portable electronics since I have other shit that gets kept in my pockets. I know, I know, cases/protectors. Thing is, if that's built in I don't have to worry about it, like, ever. For example I'm dead serious that I loved my SP as much for the fold down screen as I did for it being illuminated.

    HappylilElf on
  • Dr Mario KartDr Mario Kart Games Dealer Austin, TXRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Its not really about having a second screen as it is about having options in development. Secondarily this also goes for the microphone and the touch screen. Having different things to do that dont radically raise dev costs like a spike in processing power.

    If you want to use them for your designs, thats cool. If not, you can do something like Rocket Slime which is essentially a GBA game and thats also fine.

    Though I imagine having a second screen might be more useful if your hand has to be in the way to do a particular thing on the bottom screen.

    Dr Mario Kart on
  • mntorankusumntorankusu I'm not sure how to use this thing.... Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I can't really think of any games where the second screen is really incredibly important, but I don't think I've played a game where it wasn't useful. Even if every game ever made used it as nothing but a map screen, it would still be worth it. Map screens are great.

    mntorankusu on
  • KKprofitKKprofit Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I hear it has 2 screens.

    KKprofit on
  • LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I can't really think of any games where the second screen is really incredibly important, but I don't think I've played a game where it wasn't useful. Even if every game ever made used it as nothing but a map screen, it would still be worth it. Map screens are great.

    Like someone just said, Metroid Prime Hunters. Wouldn't work without the second screen.

    Lemming on
  • s_86s_86 Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    -

    s_86 on
  • LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    s_86 wrote: »
    On other notes...1. Did anyone else ever think that in metroid hunters, you would be shooting at where your stylus touches? (like point blank).

    I'm pretty sure that this was a control option in First Hunt, which was the demo for Hunters, and it was pretty crappy.

    Lemming on
  • dopplexdopplex Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I can't really think of any games where the second screen is really incredibly important, but I don't think I've played a game where it wasn't useful. Even if every game ever made used it as nothing but a map screen, it would still be worth it. Map screens are great.


    I'd go for FF3 as an example of a game where it wasn't even useful.

    Then again, they didn't really try.

    dopplex on
  • ToldoToldo But actually, WeegianRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I can relieve one screen of needless clutter. For instance, playing a game like Metroid Prime Hunters wouldn't work with the thumb strap.

    Toldo on
  • LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    dopplex wrote: »
    I can't really think of any games where the second screen is really incredibly important, but I don't think I've played a game where it wasn't useful. Even if every game ever made used it as nothing but a map screen, it would still be worth it. Map screens are great.


    I'd go for FF3 as an example of a game where it wasn't even useful.

    Then again, they didn't really try.

    In FF3's defense, the game wasn't created with two screens in mind. Some games have no excuse, but in this case, I don't think there was much they could do to make a second screen very useful without changing the original game a fair amount.

    Lemming on
  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Also, Metroid Prime pinball. It would be vastly more difficult without both screens.

    Delzhand on
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Jump Ultimate All-stars (Japan-only game) is a comic-book fighting game, with the touch-screen swapping between members of your team or summoning assists. You don't use the stylus, the panels are big enough to touch:

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    This is a pretty great game.

    I'm glad they've got the 2 screens because it encourages originality. Games like Sangokushi Taisen and Etrian Odyssey need the second screen.

    I don't want every machine to be exactly the same. I don't want a Nintendo version of the PSP.

    poshniallo on
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  • LeztaLezta Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    poshniallo wrote: »
    You don't use the stylus, the panels are big enough to touch

    Touch... with my... fingers?

    Lezta on
  • SixfortyfiveSixfortyfive Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Any game that uses the touch screen solely as a customizable input device justifies the 2nd screen's existence.

    I give you Bleach DS 1 & 2. For the most part, they're fairly ordinary 2D fighters. If you're the type of person that never much cared for having to input long strings of directional commands to pull off super moves, though, you can simply press one of the hotkeys on the touch screen (the 8 little rectangles on the bottom right) instead.

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  • darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    yeah, what a lot of people are saying. It's not always put to the best use in every game (and relatively useless in some), but it does give developers the option. As it is, if i ever got off my ass and put some effort in, i've got some nice ideas for a game for it, that would make nice, tactile use of both screens. But that's another story.

    darleysam on
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  • blue integerblue integer Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Æthelred wrote: »
    The name of the device, standing for "Dual Screen" seems to me to show a misunderstanding of why the DS is special. Did Nintendo really think the two screens would be the selling point?

    From Nintendo's perspective, 'DS' actually refers to 'Developer's System'.

    http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/ds/faq.jsp#ds

    blue integer on
  • StormwatcherStormwatcher Blegh BlughRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Metroid Prime Hunters and Starfox Command pretty much wouldn't be possible without the 2 screens.

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  • Shooter McgavinShooter Mcgavin Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Because the last time they had someone try to fold a single screen in half, things didn't end well.

    Shooter Mcgavin on
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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Without the two screens, it's just a suped up Gameboy...
    Besides, my bottom screen is all scummy from me losing my styluses and using my dirty-ass fingers, and that leaves me one nice to look at screen and one dirty one.
    Take that as good or bad, for me, I like the DS as is.

    Local H Jay on
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Because the last time they had someone try to fold a single screen in half, things didn't end well.

    LOL

    Local H Jay on
  • slash000slash000 Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    2 screens is brilliant, since one of them is a touchscreen.

    Some games benefit greatly by allowing you to see all the action on the top screen while maintaining precise control on the bottom screen.

    At worst, the other screen is a useful little tool that reduces clutter from the main action screen, which is very helpful on a portable device.

    slash000 on
  • Big DookieBig Dookie Smells great! Houston, TXRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I think simply being able to assign UIs and Maps and stuff like that to the second screen is useful enough to justify it being there. After playing Dawn of Sorrow, I went back and replayed Metroid Zero Mission. I really, REALLY missed having the map in DoS available at all times without having to go into a second menu and everything. There are a number of games where this type of thing has helped quite a bit.

    Honestly, keeping all the gameplay to one screen and then assigning secondary functions to the other screen (maps, menus, etc) seems to be a perfect use of the two screens, even though that's what everyone worried about at the beginning. I think people didn't really understand how nice it is to keep those elements seperated from each other. But if you go back and play many of the old GBA games, it becomes apparent how nice it really is.

    Of course, this isn't even touching (lawl) on the games that basically require the second screen to function, such as MP:Hunters and Starfox Command.

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  • Shooter McgavinShooter Mcgavin Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Because the last time they had someone try to fold a single screen in half, things didn't end well.

    LOL

    LOL, nice.

    Shooter Mcgavin on
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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    EBA with one screen, sacrificing the fun little animations = D:

    emnmnme on
  • DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    if you removed the bottom screen and just put a touch one in, then yes 75% of the current games would work. But its the combination of the 2nd screen and it being touch that makes things so awesome and so varied among game styles we see, I can think of an amazing game that uses each style (including just a top or single screen with no *real* use for the bottom one with no touch sensitivity)

    DiannaoChong on
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  • SimBenSimBen Hodor? Hodor Hodor.Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Something that most people don't realize about the DS is how the two screens maximize its graphic processing power.

    See, in the DS, each screen has its own GPU, BUT there is only one 3D rendering chip in the system. That means that, most of the time, all the 3D capabilities of the system are channeled into either one of the two screens (think about it, do you ever see 3D on both screens at the same time?)

    Yes you do. In Mario Kart, the level intros pan over both screens. But it's not interactive, and if you counted the frames, you'd find that the framerate is significantly lower than during gameplay. That's because the 3D chip is splitting its work on both GPUs, which it wasn't specifically designed to do efficiently.

    Basically, if you had only one screen as large as the two screens put together, you'd need a 3D chip capable of outputting twice the resolution it's currently capable of, which would make the system more expensive. As it is, you get great 3D and a large playing surface, at the cost of not being able to have 3D on both screens at once (which basically no game needs anyway). Except that, as Mario Kart shows, it's still possible to weasel your way around that limitation if framerate isn't a real issue (like in cut-scenes).

    That being said, developers do seem to lack imagination. It seems obvious to me that an FF-type RPG should have its in-game menu permanently displayed on the bottom screen, with the action taking place on the top one. You should be able to navigate the menu using the touch screen without interrupting gameplay. You could even streamline some functions, so if you wanted to, say, give a potion to someone, you'd click "Items", then you'd have a menu with all your items (with a scrolling bar, obviously) and your characters on one side of the screen, and you'd only need to drag a potion to a guy to heal him. AND, you could do all of that while walking around if you wanted to (though it would be pretty annoying to get a random battle while you're trying to heal someone, so that would only be advisable in towns and such).

    SimBen on
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  • ZizZiz Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Having a map always in front of me has, for me, revolutionized Castlevania. :P I get lost easy. :oops: It would be nice if more games really made use of the second screen though, much of the time it does feel like the developers sat down in the last week and said "Okay, someone pick something to put on that other screen so we can ship this thing."

    Ziz on
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  • Shooter McgavinShooter Mcgavin Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Ziz wrote: »
    Having a map always in front of me has, for me, revolutionized Castlevania. :P I get lost easy. :oops: It would be nice if more games really made use of the second screen though, much of the time it does feel like the developers sat down in the last week and said "Okay, someone pick something to put on that other screen so we can ship this thing."

    They should have made the doors a brighter green though. I've spent an hour here and an hour there getting lost, trying to figure out where to go, when finally I spot a heralded un-opened green door somewhere on the map. Those things blend in amazingly well.

    Shooter Mcgavin on
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  • RockinXRockinX Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Because the last time they had someone try to fold a single screen in half, things didn't end well.

    LOL

    LOL, nice.

    Boy, do Japanese people like to invent useless stuff.

    I think that having two screens benefitted Animal Crossing greatly. It was awesome to be able to see the sky with the top screen.

    RockinX on
  • Dodge AspenDodge Aspen Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Even in New Super Mario Bros., having the powerups on the bottom screen, only a touch away, is great. I really like the subtle uses of the dual screens, where it's there, but it's not always noticeable.

    Then again, games like Metroid Pinball and Mario and Luigi would not be possible on the Gameboy or PSP, so it definitly serves a purpose. Some developers just don't need it to make thier games is all.

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  • ZizZiz Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Ziz wrote: »
    Having a map always in front of me has, for me, revolutionized Castlevania. :P I get lost easy. :oops: It would be nice if more games really made use of the second screen though, much of the time it does feel like the developers sat down in the last week and said "Okay, someone pick something to put on that other screen so we can ship this thing."

    They should have made the doors a brighter green though. I've spent an hour here and an hour there getting lost, trying to figure out where to go, when finally I spot a heralded un-opened green door somewhere on the map. Those things blend in amazingly well.

    Ah, I'm glad to know I wasn't the only person squinting at that screen!

    Ziz on
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  • paco_pepepaco_pepe Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    the dual screen implementation in MKDS is great, you can have a general layout of the course, or a close up, detailed one, showing the exact position of items and other racers, wich is nice when it comes to dodging and aiming weapons.

    And of course, 2 screens allow you to use the awesome "book setup" like brain age and (i think) hotel dusk.

    paco_pepe on
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