When game B is better than game A, that which inspired it

ryuprecht

Now that I'm about 2/3 of the way through Crackdown, I've come to terms with the fact that I like it a hell of a lot more than GTA. I think the gameplay is more refined (in terms of commitment vs reward, especially), the controls better, and the mechanics more to my liking. So that got me thinking, what other genre-defining games are bested by those the are directly inspired by? I've had two people tell me Saint's Row is another one like this. I've also heard that Supreme Commander (I think that's the name) bested C&C back when. Maybe Hellgate: London to do the same to Diablo II? I'm not talking direct sequels here, but inspirations.

I ask partly because I have limited game playing time, so I try to stick only to games I know are cream of the crop. Being a film lover, this surprised me even more, since I also tend to give additional points to something for originating something new. Is it just me?

DisruptorX2

Warcraft II is a better game than Command and Conquer. :P

Blizzard's games generally are better than the games they shamelessly plagiarize.

Xenogears of Bore

DOOM is better than Wolf 3D, but that might be more of a case of progression from one title done by a company to another.

On a similar note a lot of people think Unreal is better than Quake III.

DisruptorX2

Xenogears of Bore wrote: »

DOOM is better than Wolf 3D, but that might be more of a case of progression from one title done by a company to another.

On a similar note a lot of people think Unreal is better than Quake III.

Unreal Tournament, you mean? Unreal was the "Quake II killer".

Anonymous Robot

I'm in the minority here, but I enjoyed Westwood's NOX more then Blizzard's Diablo franchise.

Xenogears of Bore

DisruptorX2 wrote: »

Xenogears of Bore wrote: »

DOOM is better than Wolf 3D, but that might be more of a case of progression from one title done by a company to another.

On a similar note a lot of people think Unreal is better than Quake III.

Unreal Tournament, you mean? Unreal was the "Quake II killer".

I originally had Tourament down, but then I stopped. Yeah, Unreal:Quake II::Unreal Tourament:Quake III

You could also count Half-Life against Quake 1 or II, whichever one you pick.

This wasn't personal opinion, as I prefer DOOM and DOOM II to all of them.

ruzkin

Gears of War took most of it's gameplay elements from kill.switch, which was not a BAD game but more a set of great ideas in an unimpressive package. GoW added a million miles of shiny.

Steel Angel

ryuprecht wrote: »

Now that I'm about 2/3 of the way through Crackdown, I've come to terms with the fact that I like it a hell of a lot more than GTA. I think the gameplay is more refined (in terms of commitment vs reward, especially), the controls better, and the mechanics more to my liking. So that got me thinking, what other genre-defining games are bested by those the are directly inspired by? I've had two people tell me Saint's Row is another one like this. I've also heard that Supreme Commander (I think that's the name) bested C&C back when. Maybe Hellgate: London to do the same to Diablo II? I'm not talking direct sequels here, but inspirations.

I ask partly because I have limited game playing time, so I try to stick only to games I know are cream of the crop. Being a film lover, this surprised me even more, since I also tend to give additional points to something for originating something new. Is it just me?

One big difference with this between games and film is that games can copy or modify things from other games while still having a very different story. With film, it's often just a plot or setting that's being copied.

Local H Jay

I think me liking Crackdown more than GTA has alot to with the fact that not only do I get to kill random innocents with a rocket launcher (Like in GTA), but then I use the dead person's body as a weapon to kill others, and then pick up a truck and throw it of a bridge, where I then chuck grenades at cars as they pass by while kicking any that come my way.

urahonky

Anonymous Robot wrote: »

I'm in the minority here, but I enjoyed Westwood's NOX more then Blizzard's Diablo franchise.

I loved them both.

Nox was amazing, but Diablo had better items.

If they did a Nox 2, I'd be a happy goat.

Shooter Mcgavin

I'm of the opinion that Crackdown is too different from the GTA series to classify them together. Crackdown has no missions and no storyline, and many gameplay elements are absent (drive by's, customization (character, cars, houses, etc)). Barring all of that, it's still a really fun game that does things its own way. Personally, I'd have to say Saints Row is a shameless ripoff of the GTA series, but everything about it is just better IMO.

Sushisource

XBOX360 > XBOX?

I kid. I can't really think of any off the top of my head, this one will require some true thought.

mrgilmorean

FFT was much better than Tactics Ogre. Less arcane class progression, a whole boatload of abilities for each and smoother, faster battles.

Imperfect

So hold on hold on, we're talking about games that improve upon an already successful forumula like it's surprising?

I mean, I understand if you're coming at this from the point of view of film, but this is the business model in computer games. Someone does something new and original and is wildly successful with it, then everyone else dogpiles and it becomes an established franchise and the people who make the slickest interpretation of it win out.

I mean witness Wolfenstein/Doom giving birth to the FPS genre.

Tetris giving birth to the puzzle genre.

Bejeweled giving birth the the Bejewled sub-genre.

I'm a little drunk right now (Canada Day woo!), but I don't think I'm alone here. This is the Way Games Work. (Or at leas the The Way The Games Industry Works.)

Actually, what might be more interesting would be "When Game A is better than Game B, though Game B blatantly copied A" - though the title would probably be better expressed as "Classic Industry Fuckups".

Darlan

I enjoyed Okami more than Twilight Princess, though they were both fun. Okami just had more vibrancy and personality, and the visual style was amazing.

mrgilmorean

Imperfect wrote: »

So hold on hold on, we're talking about games that improve upon an already successful forumula like it's surprising?

I mean, I understand if you're coming at this from the point of view of film, but this is the business model in computer games. Someone does something new and original and is wildly successful with it, then everyone else dogpiles and it becomes an established franchise and the people who make the slickest interpretation of it win out.

Doesn't always work out that way though. I don't think the majority of people see any of the subsequent Diablo II clones as better than it is. And until the release of Street Fighter Alpha 2, I thought Super Street Fighter 2 was the best 2D fighter around. There are probably other examples but you get my drift.

urahonky

Darlan wrote: »

I enjoyed Okami more than Twilight Princess, though they were both fun. Okami just had more vibrancy and personality, and the visual style was amazing.

I felt the opposite.

I couldn't get into Okami no matter how hard I tried. I played for about 6 hours and got bored.

I can tell it was a good game, just not for me.

Sushisource

mrgilmorean wrote: »

FFT was much better than Tactics Ogre. Less arcane class progression, a whole boatload of abilities for each and smoother, faster battles.

This is very very true. Tactics Ogre was one of my favorite games, and when FFt came along I think I dumped 200 someodd hours into the GBA version.

Big Dookie

Serious Sam was much better than Doom.

Whew, it feels good to get that out.

mausmalone

Big Dookie wrote: »

Serious Sam was much better than Doom.

Whew, it feels good to get that out.

I never thought that Doom was all that amazing as a game. It was just shockingly new-looking when it came out. You looked at what was going on in the game and said to yourself "WTF? My computer can do this? Awesome!" ... but it's a very bare-bones framework. Later games really brought a lot to the table.

Big Dookie

mausmalone wrote: »

Big Dookie wrote: »

Serious Sam was much better than Doom.

Whew, it feels good to get that out.

I never thought that Doom was all that amazing as a game. It was just shockingly new-looking when it came out. You looked at what was going on in the game and said to yourself "WTF? My computer can do this? Awesome!" ... but it's a very bare-bones framework. Later games really brought a lot to the table.

In terms of story and content, no, Doom didn't offer much. However, as a pure adrenaline packed action FPS, Doom still stands up pretty well. I brought up Serious Sam specifically because I honestly feel that SS took the Doom formula of "lots of weapons and ammo and craziness and lots of relentless spawning enemies" and improved upon it quite a bit. I'd put Painkiller in this same class, and while good, I still feel that Serious Sam was the better game.

Note that this only applies to the First and Second Encounters, though. Serious Sam 2 was kind of a let down.

FreddyD

Wasn't Worms a blatant copy of Scorched Earth? I enjoyed it quite a bit. It added some charm and personality to the turn based genre.

And I liked Gunbound better than the last few Worms releases (Worms Live/Open Warfare). It is far more innovative and the graphics are a little better.

Big Dookie

I wish someone would improve on Descent. I'd love to see a new Descent game.

Ah_Pook

serious sam was great, but the level design of "heres a giant room, lets spawn a hundred enemies into it!" got pretty repetitive by the end. didnt make the game any less fun, because i totally love the first and second encounters, but it keeps it from really competing with Doom and Doom 2 in my mind.

Ah_Pook

Big Dookie wrote: »

I wish someone would improve on Descent. I'd love to see a new Descent game.

i would squeal with glee if they made a new Descent game. i really need to track down a copy of Descent 3 sometime, i have no idea what happened to my old copy. what an awesome series.

the total ripoff game Forsaken was pretty damn fun too, to keep this somewhat on topic.

nexuscrawler

I think the Unreal games(minus Unreal 2) were all better than their quake counterparts. More refined gameplay, better multiplayer and better weapons with secondary fire

Big Dookie

Ah_Pook wrote: »

Big Dookie wrote: »

I wish someone would improve on Descent. I'd love to see a new Descent game.

i would squeal with glee if they made a new Descent game. i really need to track down a copy of Descent 3 sometime, i have no idea what happened to my old copy. what an awesome series.

the total ripoff game Forsaken was pretty damn fun too, to keep this somewhat on topic.

Oh man, I forgot about Forsaken. That wasn't a bad game at all.

FreddyD

Big Dookie wrote: »

Ah_Pook wrote: »

Big Dookie wrote: »

I wish someone would improve on Descent. I'd love to see a new Descent game.

i would squeal with glee if they made a new Descent game. i really need to track down a copy of Descent 3 sometime, i have no idea what happened to my old copy. what an awesome series.

the total ripoff game Forsaken was pretty damn fun too, to keep this somewhat on topic.

Oh man, I forgot about Forsaken. That wasn't a bad game at all.

Forsaken made me so motion sick... I can't even be in the same room as the game.

Haikira

Would it be blasphemy to say the Halo series has improved on what Golden Eye/Perfect dark started on the N64? I know its just because they had a release on a console where more things were technically possible, but to me halo took everything i liked about those games (accessible and customizable multiplayer and great co-op fun) and improved on them for the generation after.

That is all (sorry to whom this offends =P)

Big Dookie

Haikira wrote: »

Would it be blasphemy to say the Halo series has improved on what Golden Eye/Perfect dark started on the N64? I know its just because they had a release on a console where more things were technically possible, but to me halo took everything i liked about those games (accessible and customizable multiplayer and great co-op fun) and improved on them for the generation after.

That is all (sorry to whom this offends =P)

Actually, I think I'd agree with you there. Although I was never a huge fan of Goldeneye/PD in the first place, so I may be biased.

zanetheinsane

Don't forget about Driver->GTA.

Ah_Pook

are you saying that driver is better than gta? because i would disagree.

or that gta is better than driver, and was inspired by driver? because i would disagree with that also.

Haikira

zanetheinsane wrote: »

Don't forget about Driver->GTA.

I seriously hope this is a joke!

OmegaVelocity

Puyo Pop is pretty much infinitely superior to Tetris, so I'd imagine that counts for something.

Drovek

zanetheinsane wrote: »

Don't forget about Mafia->GTA.

Fixed a bit. I'm not completely sure if it's solely GTA inspired (were there other open ended mafioso games before it?) but I really love it compared to GTA3/VC

Speakeasy

I'm inclined to say Silent Hill over Resident Evil. While the latter was cheesy zombie "BOO" moments, Silent Hill really got into my mind and fucked it over. Nothing like pitch-dark sewers and running away from something you think is there.

zanetheinsane

I'm saying that Driver 2 was a free-roaming 3D mission-based driving game where you could get out of your car and carjack other drivers. There was also a strong emphasis on the music of the game.

Even GTA3's own developers included references to Driver in their game.

Also, Mafia was released after GTA3. When you put the pointer "Mafia->GTA3" you make it sound the other way around.

Ah_Pook

you know there were some GTA games before GTA3 right?

zanetheinsane

Yes, that's generally why you would put a THREE after your title. That would sort of indicate two previous titles.

Mmmm... Cocks...

Big Dookie wrote: »

Ah_Pook wrote: »

Big Dookie wrote: »

I wish someone would improve on Descent. I'd love to see a new Descent game.

i would squeal with glee if they made a new Descent game. i really need to track down a copy of Descent 3 sometime, i have no idea what happened to my old copy. what an awesome series.

the total ripoff game Forsaken was pretty damn fun too, to keep this somewhat on topic.

Oh man, I forgot about Forsaken. That wasn't a bad game at all.

I remember a friend of mine picked it up on a whim because of how cheap it was and our love for Twisted Metal and Critical Depth - and this seemed like more of the same. It really required a good changing of the controls though to get it to feel right.

And speaking of Critical Depth - definitely a Twisted Metal clone. And a fucking fantastic one at that.
And the Vigilante 8 series as well. I'd kill for a current version of either.
Twisted Metal seems to have lost its shine to me, though Black was still fantastic.