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Discussion: Vista, Games for Windows, and Microsoft Product Activation
CZroe
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I bought Shadowrun and Flight Simulator X before I knew about their "Product Activation" that binds them to a specific PC. I was about to buy Halo 2 also.
This entirely defeats the point of buying the PC version for me. I know that if I ever want to play a PC game in the distant future, it will cost peanuts to build an older system that can play it... and play it well. Now, I find that I have to decide if I'm going to be OK with the performance of the current machine for a specific game before I install it. For instance, I haven't decided if I will install on my Athlon 64 X2 3800+ 2GB DDR 7800GT system or wait until I finish my next build (already started with an Intel Core 2 Quad, 4GB DDR2, and an Antec 900). The Athlon system was never really stable and has been turned off almost the entire time since building it in 2005 (been too busy for PC games and the other PCs perform well enough... XP MCE is also more than a little distracting). I'm worried that I'd be wasting one of my two allowed activations if I install on it. I can imagine what it'd be like for someone who isn't sure that their computer is up to snuff but they don't foresee a future build any time soon.
But here's the REAL problem: PC gamers upgrade and upgrade often. Over the years, I have developed a HUGE library of classic PC games that I'd never give up without expecting serious cash. Are PC gamers suddenly expected to cut their losses after two PC generations/activations/upgrade cycles or are they expect to keep older PCs working and have them pile up as the years go by? PCs are too delicate to pretend that you can lock games to one system and expect to be able to play it again in the future. It now makes sense to over-power a system before installing games with activation because you are going to be stuck with similar hardware for a long time. I mean, video upgrades may be OK, but upgrading to an SLI board and dual next-gen video cards will likely offer an opportune time to upgrade to a new CPU and memory type. New system = broken game activation? For instance: I plan on booting up my Quad-Core CPU on the included ECS P4M900T board (Via) until I can find a deal on a P35. Even with the P35, the 8800-generation is about equal to the Playstation 3, so I'd want to double-up in SLI as soon as there is a decent board so that I have some reason to be using this instead of my Playstation 3 (Spiderman 3 is terrible on my 7800GT SLI).
I've always tried to keep things simple. The compatibility problems of XP-64 and Vista didn't concern me much because I always just figured that I'd have a "compatibility system" from each generation that could play it properly. Now we have an new operating system that can't run even many new games well (Vista) and an operating system that can't run some new games at all (XP w/o DX10). It's almost FORCING you to install both and dual-boot for the foreseeable future. Add to it that 64-bit brings with it further compatibility problems and you've got a three-way "dual boot" setup complicating things. And yes, if I'm going to sacrifice so much compatibility anyway, I think I'd cut all my losses now and go 64-bit.
So, though I've skimmed a few things, like about each game allowing only one other PC to ever be activated, I really don't know much about game activation. Is it tying itself to your hardware? Your Windows activation/key? Both? What effect will installing Vista and later upgrading to an SLI board + video cards make on game activation regardless of whether it may trigger an OS reactivation or not? If it simply allows you to keep/reinstall the game on whatever system you install that OS & key on, AWESOME! Things aren't that bad. Microsoft better alter their EULA to allow you to install your property on your next PC though... the EULA forbids installing it on a second PC even if you format the first (at least the OEM one does). However, to avoid the hassles of activation, I've always used corporate versions of XP with valid keys instead of my other legal copies. If the key is ever leaked and blocked (the one from school has passed Genuine Advantage for years), I'd just switch to my other legal ones and deal with activation from that point... but would I be losing my activated games? I intended to use the OEM BIOS emulator to avoid Vista activation complications, but if that too is ever blocked (Service Pack 1, I'm looking at you), what will it mean for my activated games? In an effort to reduce complications I would probably be making things worse, so I don't think I'll risk it with Vista and activation.
Edit:
Wikipedia seems incredibly unaware of game activation and I can't even find mentions in the Shadowrun, Halo 2, or Microsoft Product Activation pages. Microsoft claims that only multiplayer features are inactive in an unactivated game, but Flight Simulator X says otherwise! You will not get...
• Multiplayer
• All scenery and planes
• Third-party add-ons
...and to top it all off: it will time out in 30-minutes. You get a trial version!
I've been burned in the past by games that don't say that there's any problem with things like this. I have yet to install and play Battlefield Complete Collection, Battlefield 2, and others. I did not realize that they required an account to play and that you were screwed if you don't have those details. Because my backlog is so huge, I loaned those to friends to try out and neither remember their account details. I recently loaned S.T.A.L.K.E.R. to a friend on the day I bought it and freaked out when I remembered that it too might require some kind of account (it didn't). If games are going to change the way they work (require your CD changed to requiring an account changed to requiring the same activated PC), they better make sure that you are aware of it on the box. It wasn't until Battlefield 2142 that EA FINALLY began printing that on the box and yet, by that time, the situation with other companies had only gotten worse.
This entirely defeats the point of buying the PC version for me. I know that if I ever want to play a PC game in the distant future, it will cost peanuts to build an older system that can play it... and play it well. Now, I find that I have to decide if I'm going to be OK with the performance of the current machine for a specific game before I install it. For instance, I haven't decided if I will install on my Athlon 64 X2 3800+ 2GB DDR 7800GT system or wait until I finish my next build (already started with an Intel Core 2 Quad, 4GB DDR2, and an Antec 900). The Athlon system was never really stable and has been turned off almost the entire time since building it in 2005 (been too busy for PC games and the other PCs perform well enough... XP MCE is also more than a little distracting). I'm worried that I'd be wasting one of my two allowed activations if I install on it. I can imagine what it'd be like for someone who isn't sure that their computer is up to snuff but they don't foresee a future build any time soon.
But here's the REAL problem: PC gamers upgrade and upgrade often. Over the years, I have developed a HUGE library of classic PC games that I'd never give up without expecting serious cash. Are PC gamers suddenly expected to cut their losses after two PC generations/activations/upgrade cycles or are they expect to keep older PCs working and have them pile up as the years go by? PCs are too delicate to pretend that you can lock games to one system and expect to be able to play it again in the future. It now makes sense to over-power a system before installing games with activation because you are going to be stuck with similar hardware for a long time. I mean, video upgrades may be OK, but upgrading to an SLI board and dual next-gen video cards will likely offer an opportune time to upgrade to a new CPU and memory type. New system = broken game activation? For instance: I plan on booting up my Quad-Core CPU on the included ECS P4M900T board (Via) until I can find a deal on a P35. Even with the P35, the 8800-generation is about equal to the Playstation 3, so I'd want to double-up in SLI as soon as there is a decent board so that I have some reason to be using this instead of my Playstation 3 (Spiderman 3 is terrible on my 7800GT SLI).
I've always tried to keep things simple. The compatibility problems of XP-64 and Vista didn't concern me much because I always just figured that I'd have a "compatibility system" from each generation that could play it properly. Now we have an new operating system that can't run even many new games well (Vista) and an operating system that can't run some new games at all (XP w/o DX10). It's almost FORCING you to install both and dual-boot for the foreseeable future. Add to it that 64-bit brings with it further compatibility problems and you've got a three-way "dual boot" setup complicating things. And yes, if I'm going to sacrifice so much compatibility anyway, I think I'd cut all my losses now and go 64-bit.
So, though I've skimmed a few things, like about each game allowing only one other PC to ever be activated, I really don't know much about game activation. Is it tying itself to your hardware? Your Windows activation/key? Both? What effect will installing Vista and later upgrading to an SLI board + video cards make on game activation regardless of whether it may trigger an OS reactivation or not? If it simply allows you to keep/reinstall the game on whatever system you install that OS & key on, AWESOME! Things aren't that bad. Microsoft better alter their EULA to allow you to install your property on your next PC though... the EULA forbids installing it on a second PC even if you format the first (at least the OEM one does). However, to avoid the hassles of activation, I've always used corporate versions of XP with valid keys instead of my other legal copies. If the key is ever leaked and blocked (the one from school has passed Genuine Advantage for years), I'd just switch to my other legal ones and deal with activation from that point... but would I be losing my activated games? I intended to use the OEM BIOS emulator to avoid Vista activation complications, but if that too is ever blocked (Service Pack 1, I'm looking at you), what will it mean for my activated games? In an effort to reduce complications I would probably be making things worse, so I don't think I'll risk it with Vista and activation.
Edit:
Wikipedia seems incredibly unaware of game activation and I can't even find mentions in the Shadowrun, Halo 2, or Microsoft Product Activation pages. Microsoft claims that only multiplayer features are inactive in an unactivated game, but Flight Simulator X says otherwise! You will not get...
• Multiplayer
• All scenery and planes
• Third-party add-ons
...and to top it all off: it will time out in 30-minutes. You get a trial version!
I've been burned in the past by games that don't say that there's any problem with things like this. I have yet to install and play Battlefield Complete Collection, Battlefield 2, and others. I did not realize that they required an account to play and that you were screwed if you don't have those details. Because my backlog is so huge, I loaned those to friends to try out and neither remember their account details. I recently loaned S.T.A.L.K.E.R. to a friend on the day I bought it and freaked out when I remembered that it too might require some kind of account (it didn't). If games are going to change the way they work (require your CD changed to requiring an account changed to requiring the same activated PC), they better make sure that you are aware of it on the box. It wasn't until Battlefield 2142 that EA FINALLY began printing that on the box and yet, by that time, the situation with other companies had only gotten worse.
CZroe on
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I really dont't think it's that huge a deal, really. It's basically a product key that tells MS that you're using it, like pretty much every online game does with product keys right now anyway. That's how they do anti-privacy, check the key, see if it's use by someone else.
MS's activation is pretty much the same.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927007
Thread over?
Thread over....
So it's like any other product key.......ever.
Well, you have to activate it by either internet or telephone. If they made you do that instead of a CD check I'd honestly welcome the change.
Well no, it sounds like you are forced to uninstall if before installing it elsewhere. Which is a pain in the butt.
But nothing like the thread describes.
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Even so, this effectively eliminates rentals for 1-player games (yes, PC game rentals do exist) and loaning games to friends. It should be illegal to say that I can't loan a game I own and am not currently playing to a friend in the exact same way I could loan the XBOX 360 version. Consumers expect that this is possible and Microsoft has walked all over this expectation.
I can't believe I'm supposed to hoard all my games to myself and snap at the friend that tries to idly install it on my laptop. Are PC gamers supposed to be lonely hermit hoarders that don't ever sell their games and only play them alone in the dark?
No. It's been very specifically stated that you can only do this ONCE for Games for Windows activations. Once.
Edit: That's a general Product Activation page and it's full of contradictions. See the one about only multiplayer features and disc-less play being the limited when not activated versus the one about Flight Simulator X's 30-minute time limit.
Well, you're in luck: Halo 2 does exactly that. No CD check if activated.
PSN ID : Xander51 Steam ID : Xander51
It's a page for Games for Windows product activation, and I don't see any contradictions. It doesn't say that it's only the multiplayer that's limited, it says that's one way to tell.
edit:
Frequently asked questions about how to activate and how to troubleshoot activation issues for Games for Windows
How will I activate it then? Will they release patches so old games won't have to be activated?
How do you mean when support is dropped? It's online registration. It's not as if they need anything sophisticated to perform a number check when you input your key. :?
I will agree with Glal that it's obnoxious and stupid though. At least on Steam you can download and run pretty much wherever you want since everything's tied to a unified account, but tying to the hardware? What idiot thought that was a good idea on a variable and upgradeable hardware platform?
Wow! I read the whole thing before it was posted in the thread and I didn't catch that. All their vague and broad wording mostly applied to all activation "products" and I didn't catch the title thanks to jumping in from a Google search. There's no mention of the two activations, so I didn't think it was the game-specific page. Good news, but...
That's the million dollar question. We should lobby for a law. Consumer protection agencies would be on our side.
The same way EA dropped support for almost all of their 2-year old PC games (and XBOX games).
Edit: Oh, and were you blissfully unaware of the whole saga Prey got caught up in? Even a number check can be difficult for a company to do if the company no longer exists. Their Steam-like distribution company went belly-up leaving thousands and tousands of customers high an' dry. Thankfully, they struck up a deal with Steam and became the only 3rd party game key you can register and download without the disc.
I'm afraid I still don't follow. You need the key to activate. It's an automatic process on an automatic system. I don't see why it should suddenly be 'dropped' unless Microsoft themselves go under.
And while unlikely at the moment, that's still a possibility, and probably my chief concern with systems like this and Steam. In the case of Steam, Valve's Doug Lombardi once said something along the lines that if they ever were to lose the service they'd make sure to modify the softare so that people could run it without the online steam client, but I'm not sure how much I trust that personally.
EA has dropped support of games in regard to patches... good luck getting anything fixed 1 year after the game is launched... unless you buy the 'expansion'. I'm looking at you Battlefield 1942 / Vietnam / 2
Regardless of microsoft activation shenannigans... i'm closer to dumping Vista entirely and running all games in a windows XP virtual OS ...
and when you want to play those games years down the line, and keys are missing.. well.. there are plently of places people go to do that now that 'fix' that.
Librarians harbor a terrible secret. Find it.
The only way I'd trust this is if it were a WRITTEN, ironclad guarantee. I can see a service like this saying "Our old service XXX will be going off line on date Y, replaced by our brand-new improved service Z. Old games will not be functional on the new service, but you can re-buy them for the lowprice of $toomuch."
And therein lies the whole problem with product activation.
I think it's sad that the only reason I trust purchasing these games is because of the knowledge that at any point I can hack them to run without the online activation being necessary. It's not as if I have any faith in the companies to give me what I've paid for when they keep trying to make it a service.
Presumably you'd swing by any number of a group of websites that we're probably not allowed to mention here and download the ever-present crack.
Dammit.
I'm guessing like someone already stated, we can't talk about alternatives around such activation. I guess I can't ask either... So google it is.
Yet another example that copy protection only inconveniences legitimate owners. Imagine though, if it's a game not popular enough to be hacked in that way.
The same genius who thought it would be a good idea to tie DLC to a specific 360 console?
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Good point.
*cue red ring of death*
I'd just like to point out that a lot of the opening post is hypothetical and conjecture, most of which has proved to be wrong.
The ironic aspect of the situation is that the criminals do not experience any inconvience.
Its an old dispute boiling up here and there, especially if some ultra-protection is so secure it prevents legitimate users from playing their game again.
I brought this issue up at Relic and Bioware forums (obviously it was considered a issue hot enough givin me the chance to discuss with David Gaider personally).
They stated copy protections were necessary because games not being protected show a huge loss on the sales figures (wich is a valid point). Me and people sharing my point of view reminded them that cracked versions usually appear BEFORE release date (especially if considering coutries outside US or Japan) and the relatively ease to work around copy protection shemes, making it technically only a inconvience for the customers because somebody used to the techique will unprotect any game instantly. Of course the knowledge is not so widespread, so yes disk protections are useful to a degree.
As a result the games employ a copy protection around release time (to prevent a early spread) but when copy removal files become common (maybe a year after release) the protection is removed with a patch.
Excellent solution. The problem is a lot game forges show less insight.
Oh I know that. But I still feel that instead of locking it to an alterable hardware platform, if anything they should have locked it to a user account system so that you can use the game wherever / whenever (a la Steam). They wouldn't even need to offer a download service (i.e the user still installs from the original physical disc, if they really don't want to spring for the bandwidth), just allow a person to register the copy to their account, and log in when they want to use it (preferably with the option of an offline mode once you've registered on your hardware. AGAIN, like Steam seems to have already managed).
I mean, How much stuff does MS use the whole .net passport thing for? How many verifications is a hotmail account tied to? Surely they could have extended that.
I refuse to buy a game until I see a crack for it. I think I had to refrain from buying a game at release maybe twice in the past 10+ years. The pirates have been a godsend for me, and many, many games/movies would have been unplayable without them.
However, to play the Devil's Advocate, and to use your earlier example of Relic, when Sin Episode 1 came out, it shipped/downloaded with a bug that would halt the progression of the game. A conversation flag wouldn't get tagged, and the game would just...stall. You couldn't progress any more. It just so happened that the popular pirated version at the time also had this bug.
Now, we can argue all day and night about how much money is lost/gained due to software piracy, but the one thing the Relic guys brought up was a good point:
Customer service calls.
At the time, I think it was only available at launch through Steam, and was shortly rolled out in stores later on, but at launch, the customer service guys had more calls from people who didn't have Steam accounts (there were many that didn't even know what Steam was) than from people with valid info. They stated that the manhours lost due to pirates calling in to fix the game was absolutely atrocious, and were tying up the lines for "real" customers.
:x
Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
No such animal.
You don't get it. For cracking groups, breaking some new copy protection is the game. The actual "game" part they don't give a shit about.
And lol Starforce
There is a reason people prefer MP3 players over their CD collection. My computer gets WAY more playtime than any of my consoles because I don't have to eject the disk, search for the case to return it to, search for the case for the game I want, insert the disk.
Double clicking on the icon is a much smaller barrier to entry.
In my years of PC gaming, I have never once found a game that didn't have a crack. Most of them can be found in under 5 minutes. Just make sure you are not running Internet Explorer when you visit any of those sites. Wow. I did that once and once only. Firefox with noscript for me from now on.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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