This is one of the many reasons that bidding systems fail, and fail hard.
While I hate the raiding situation ("OK, raid time..." *crickets*), I like our loot system.
"OK, Clothy Pants of Facemelting Doom dropped. Casters, link your current DPS pants."
*linkage*
"Hmm hmm... Caster X seems to gain the most from this upgrade. Anyone opposed? OK, here ya go."
"Okay Caster X seems to have failed miserably at working to upgrade his gear, good thing we're dragging his useless ass through this instance. Oh caster Y don't worry, the effort you put in to get your pants is great I mean they're good pants. Just not as good as Caster X has now, oh well!"
Echo's loot system works well in a raid that is later progressed, when a raid is just beginning and still running say something like Karazhan than its more of a problem, but later on when you're working on harder instances and everyone is in raid gear than it's simply the logical thing to do. I had to deal with a mage like that when I was running Karazhan, he had tailoring, never bothered leveling it to maximum, didnt make any of the gear for his spec (He has now made, 7 months later or whatever, 1 piece of it.), he didnt bother getting spellstrike made, he didnt run heroics or anything. So essentially it was always the biggest upgrade for him, so he would receive every piece of caster gear that dropped over others because he was too lazy to put effort into his own gear.
I suppose it'd be logical if all your raiders attend the same raids and are always there for your progression instances and what not. But just because they're in raid gear doesn't make attendance, prior loot won, etc. any less important.
This is one of the many reasons that bidding systems fail, and fail hard.
While I hate the raiding situation ("OK, raid time..." *crickets*), I like our loot system.
"OK, Clothy Pants of Facemelting Doom dropped. Casters, link your current DPS pants."
*linkage*
"Hmm hmm... Caster X seems to gain the most from this upgrade. Anyone opposed? OK, here ya go."
"Okay Caster X seems to have failed miserably at working to upgrade his gear, good thing we're dragging his useless ass through this instance. Oh caster Y don't worry, the effort you put in to get your pants is great I mean they're good pants. Just not as good as Caster X has now, oh well!"
This depends on whether you consider loot to be payment for services rendered or payment for future attendance.
Echo's loot system works well in a raid that is later progressed, when a raid is just beginning and still running say something like Karazhan than its more of a problem, but later on when you're working on harder instances and everyone is in raid gear than it's simply the logical thing to do. I had to deal with a mage like that when I was running Karazhan, he had tailoring, never bothered leveling it to maximum, didnt make any of the gear for his spec (He has now made, 7 months later or whatever, 1 piece of it.), he didnt bother getting spellstrike made, he didnt run heroics or anything. So essentially it was always the biggest upgrade for him, so he would receive every piece of caster gear that dropped over others because he was too lazy to put effort into his own gear.
you smell like butts
pee you
tell me their name!
Little Jim on
0
EvilBadmanDO NOT TRUST THIS MANRegistered Userregular
Happy - won a King's Defender last night! Now my fully blue-geared ass is earning some purples for tanking.
Hate - Some jackass DPS warrior was bidding me up on it. I'm the ONLY fucking prot warrior in the guild. Our other tank is a well-geared feral druid. I was so pissed at that little shit-head. Everyone with half a brain in the guild knows that I need to gear up if we want to move on. And this little bastard has "seen it drop so many times, and other DPS warriors had taken it." Yes, mind you that none of this was in our guild. And I was not one of those DPS warriors (nor have I even been guilded with the kid until 2 weeks ago when he joined my current guild).
I was so pissed.
My philosophy is, "Ah, tank stuff. Who's a tank? Fury warrior, you gonna respec tank if you take this and main tank next week? No, you're being a douche? Ok, fuck you. It's going to the goddamn tank. Why? Because advancement is primarily dependent on tank gearings. QQ."
Adam's girlfriend - our oft-mentioned exceptionally crappy main tank - starts bitching that it was shitty of Bob to take them when Adam was still wearing blues. Raid lead tells everyone to shut the fuck up about loot while not mentioning that Adam was a dumbass for rolling on a mighty small upgrade over someone who really needed it when there are much better drops available for him to take. Adam's girlfriend continues bitching. Guild lead comes on and tells everyone to quit acting like douchetards because we're going to scare off new recruits.
Everything would be a lot more pleasant if we just kicked the two loot/drama whores, but the tank has everything out of Kara we can get based on what we've killed (no Nightbane or Netherspite loot), and none of our other tanks have shit, so we have to keep her appeased.
Adam's girlfriend - our oft-mentioned exceptionally crappy main tank - starts bitching that it was shitty of Bob to take them when Adam was still wearing blues. Raid lead tells everyone to shut the fuck up about loot while not mentioning that Adam was a dumbass for rolling on a mighty small upgrade over someone who really needed it when there are much better drops available for him to take. Adam's girlfriend continues bitching. Guild lead comes on and tells everyone to quit acting like douchetards because we're going to scare off new recruits.
Everything would be a lot more pleasant if we just kicked the two loot/drama whores, but the tank has everything out of Kara we can get based on what we've killed (no Nightbane or Netherspite loot), and none of our other tanks have shit, so we have to keep her appeased.
Fucking hell.
I'm still trying to figure out how the Bands of Nefarious Deeds is such a huge upgrade for either of those guys that it was worth starting a loot bitchfest over. I've personally passed on the Harbinger Bands while wearing Shattrath Wraps because the difference between the two was so minor it wasn't worth the trouble of farming up another spellpower to bracer enchant.
That was a real dick move by Warlock B with the Trial-Fire Trousers, though.
Adam's girlfriend - our oft-mentioned exceptionally crappy main tank - starts bitching that it was shitty of Bob to take them when Adam was still wearing blues. Raid lead tells everyone to shut the fuck up about loot while not mentioning that Adam was a dumbass for rolling on a mighty small upgrade over someone who really needed it when there are much better drops available for him to take. Adam's girlfriend continues bitching. Guild lead comes on and tells everyone to quit acting like douchetards because we're going to scare off new recruits.
Everything would be a lot more pleasant if we just kicked the two loot/drama whores, but the tank has everything out of Kara we can get based on what we've killed (no Nightbane or Netherspite loot), and none of our other tanks have shit, so we have to keep her appeased.
Fucking hell.
I'm still trying to figure out how the Bands of Nefarious Deeds is such a huge upgrade for either of those guys that it was worth starting a loot bitchfest over. I've personally passed on the Harbinger Bands while wearing Shattrath Wraps because the difference between the two was so minor it wasn't worth the trouble of farming up another spellpower to bracer enchant.
That was a real dick move by Warlock B with the Trial-Fire Trousers, though.
Upgrades is upgrades. And Shattrath Wraps aren't TEH PURPZ
Both warlocks are stupid to have not grinded the PvP bracers, which are better then any of the karazhan ones.
Yeah, that's what I ended up doing. Stupid things never dropped for me since the first week we killed her (which was before Karazhan loot got buffed, so I passed on them back then). Once I realized that there were no upgrades to that slot between Maiden and Al'ar, I ground out the WSG marks and got the Veteran's Dreadweave Cuffs.
Of course, the following week, they dropped and ended up defaulting to a Holy Priest for her farming gear.
"Okay Caster X seems to have failed miserably at working to upgrade his gear, good thing we're dragging his useless ass through this instance. Oh caster Y don't worry, the effort you put in to get your pants is great I mean they're good pants. Just not as good as Caster X has now, oh well!"
Well, we've only done that for Gruul's Lair so far, and there we don't take people with too shitty gear.
My epic upgrades so far:
Assassination shoulders - > Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless
Natasha's whatever -> Worgen Claw Necklace
Stealther's Helmet of Second Sight -> Malefic Mask of the Shadows
It's not like we have people in level 65 greens on our raids.
Echo on
0
silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
edited August 2007
Honestly, loot systems only work if there's no shit heads. Someone will ALWAYS find a way to fuck up a loot system, if they try hard enough. I did a loot system where people would roll for interest, then everyone would talk like adults and there'd be a ton of passing and "No, you," going on. Worked great. Would it work if anyone was greedy? No. Sigh.
A good loot system needs to do two things:
Reward time put in. (i.e. Don't give tank shoulders to the DPS warrior alt who's in greens and is sponging shard bait when the next raid boss is unkillable without every advantage in your tank possible. )
Incentivize taking upgrades. (i.e. Don't give the "Situational trinket for saving your ass once every day while farming in your offspec" trinket to someone, and screw them out of things that are major upgrades.)
I'm probably forgetting something, but Don't Be A Dick is always good to keep in mind.
Happy: Got my epic flight training last night and got almost all the way through the Swift Flight Form line. One Heroic Sethekk run and I'll have it.
Sad: I need two or three more Shadow Labyrinth runs before I can go to Heroic Sethekk.
Sadder: I don't know if I'm geared well enough for heroics yet, at least for tanking. (2k AP/25% crit in cat, 13.5k hp/22% dodge/21k armor/420 defense in bear)
More Sadder: Oh, FUCK YOU IN THE EAR Netherwing Crystals. You too, Dragonmaw Ascendants.
Saddest: I owe guildies a total of 700G now oh gof
Honestly, loot systems only work if there's no shit heads. Someone will ALWAYS find a way to fuck up a loot system, if they try hard enough. I did a loot system where people would roll for interest, then everyone would talk like adults and there'd be a ton of passing and "No, you," going on. Worked great. Would it work if anyone was greedy? No. Sigh.
A good loot system needs to do two things:
Reward time put in. (i.e. Don't give tank shoulders to the DPS warrior alt who's in greens and is sponging shard bait when the next raid boss is unkillable without every advantage in your tank possible. )
Incentivize taking upgrades. (i.e. Don't give the "Situational trinket for saving your ass once every day while farming in your offspec" trinket to someone, and screw them out of things that are major upgrades.)
I'm probably forgetting something, but Don't Be A Dick is always good to keep in mind.
I'd add incentives for new content as well to keep progress moving. But that last one is my beef on zero-sum systems with straight costs. We had a Paladin who was very good but mostly in blues. We were in BWL/AQ40. So we fast tracked him with gear to get him up to speed. And ended up burying him in a hole that he couldn't get out of. We made sure he wasn't dead last for set item stuff, but non-set items he was always last to get. And we're talking about gear that was going to just get sharded anyway.
If I post in here and ask anyone with a lapsed/abandoned account if they'd mind me taking it over (for free), would I get flamed and/or infracted? Because I want to play wow again, but I gave away my old account long ago.
Hate : New expansion being released, raising the level cap 10 more levels. Hate levelling, but I will have to if I don't want to be gimped in PVP the same way people without TBC were.
Happy : Woohoo, the expansion is being released, and its raising the level cap by 10 more levels.
Everything you do at 70 is now pointless.
All the rep grinds
All the farming primals
All the attunements
All the raiding
Is for nought! So, I can safely skip it all and just muck about in Battlegrounds! So what if my gear is shitty, in a few months, so will yours!
Its TBC at the moment. My guess it won't be out till next year.
Though to be honest, its a relief. Spending ages farming for epix is pointless now. Now I can just dick around doing PVP, light raiding and spend time getting my epic flyer instead of getting epic gear. Viva le Lich King!
Yes and meanwhile you can waste hours and hours of your life trying to aquire raid gear that will be outclassed after a couple of weeks with the next xpac! Hoooray!
Its not just about gear, fucking shit people. I don't give a shit about the loot, I just want to defeat these bosses, and actually see them for myself. I still want to raid until the very last fucking day before the xpac. I doubt it will happen since you guys only seem to see fucking purple.
Angry: I hate Black Morass. I'm 999/1000 Exaulted and still can't get that damn Hourglass. Shaman, Two Rogues, and a Warrior have all beaten me for it.
You're all going to eventually quit WoW anyway, so if you're only playing for the gear you are wasting your fucking time to begin with.
That's precisely my point. I hate farming gear, but I hate not being geared enough to do content even more. I want to kick boss ass, not constantly chase a carrot around.
Having to regularly re-equip all the time just makes me want to quit.
I have absolutely no problems with gear progression, I just think that quitting raiding because your gear will become outdated in maybe 8 months when the new expansion hits is god damned retarded.
TDL on
Meet me on my vast veranda
My sweet, untouched Miranda
And while the seagulls are crying
We fall but our souls are flying
I'm gonna raid right up to the next xpac so my awesome useless purples help me kill those lv 74 mobs in an instant while your oom on your 3rd mob in the starting zone.
Minerva_SC on
"If a cherry pie filled cape is wrong, I don't want to be right.
I'm dead serious."
I have absolutely no problems with gear progression, I just think that quitting raiding because your gear will become outdated in maybe 8 months when the new expansion hits is god damned retarded.
When the gear progression requires months of reputation farming, months of retarded heroic instances and a dozen group/instance quests for lame ass attunements (to get into zones that are unlocked just after you do it yourself), I start to have problems.
Skip all the grinding bullshit and I don't mind it either.
Adam's girlfriend - our oft-mentioned exceptionally crappy main tank - starts bitching that it was shitty of Bob to take them when Adam was still wearing blues. Raid lead tells everyone to shut the fuck up about loot while not mentioning that Adam was a dumbass for rolling on a mighty small upgrade over someone who really needed it when there are much better drops available for him to take. Adam's girlfriend continues bitching. Guild lead comes on and tells everyone to quit acting like douchetards because we're going to scare off new recruits.
Everything would be a lot more pleasant if we just kicked the two loot/drama whores, but the tank has everything out of Kara we can get based on what we've killed (no Nightbane or Netherspite loot), and none of our other tanks have shit, so we have to keep her appeased.
Fucking hell.
Just kick the loot whores. You and everyone else will have much more fun. It's not worth an extra couple weeks of gearing to be pissed at your raid all the time.
Yes and meanwhile you can waste hours and hours of your life trying to aquire raid gear that will be outclassed after a couple of weeks with the next xpac! Hoooray!
Yeah dude, you just get old and then die, so why ever do anything?
In fact, just kill yourself now.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Yay the Wolf yet again
For 6 weeks in a row we have faced the Wolf in the opera event. Random my ass.
Finally the curator drops the ring!
So if I could get the emerald ripper or the blade that is rumoured to drop from the R&J event {I have never seen it} I don't ever have to go to kara again
Hate: Bringing 4 holy priests to Leo. 3 of which realise they left their damage sets in the bank, AS WE'RE BUFFING BEFORE THE BOSS.
Happy: Not being allowed to ridicule these people because it might hurt their feelings.
I'm not actually happy about that second one.
Several people including you said "WHAT THE FUCK YOU RETARDS" etc. It didn't need to be said over and over and over like with Darakai's stupid Sun Eater.
Its not just about gear, fucking shit people. I don't give a shit about the loot, I just want to defeat these bosses, and actually see them for myself. I still want to raid until the very last fucking day before the xpac. I doubt it will happen since you guys only seem to see fucking purple.
(Not that I think people here are said "you guys" but more of a general you.)
I pretty much feel the same way. I raided for the experiance and to socialize with my guildies. The loot was just a bonus.
The lore change, while annoying at times, never was that big of a deal with me. I doubt that they change it for the sake of changing it. Blizz has to find some way to continue the story inside of an MMO.
As for everyone saying "WAR is coming out RAWR". Why should it be any different in terms of lore? It's an established IP already, I don't doubt that there will be some small changes in the lore to fit in an MMO. It's the nature of the beast.
I really hope they have more than one hero class by release time. Maybe DK is the only one they have completed enough to show. I would be very disappointed if there was only one available by launch time.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Posts
Echo's loot system works well in a raid that is later progressed, when a raid is just beginning and still running say something like Karazhan than its more of a problem, but later on when you're working on harder instances and everyone is in raid gear than it's simply the logical thing to do. I had to deal with a mage like that when I was running Karazhan, he had tailoring, never bothered leveling it to maximum, didnt make any of the gear for his spec (He has now made, 7 months later or whatever, 1 piece of it.), he didnt bother getting spellstrike made, he didnt run heroics or anything. So essentially it was always the biggest upgrade for him, so he would receive every piece of caster gear that dropped over others because he was too lazy to put effort into his own gear.
This depends on whether you consider loot to be payment for services rendered or payment for future attendance.
you smell like butts
pee you
tell me their name!
My philosophy is, "Ah, tank stuff. Who's a tank? Fury warrior, you gonna respec tank if you take this and main tank next week? No, you're being a douche? Ok, fuck you. It's going to the goddamn tank. Why? Because advancement is primarily dependent on tank gearings. QQ."
Warlock Adam has Harbinger's Bands. Warlock Bob, who's been coming a lot longer, has Shattrath Wraps. Bands of Nefarious Deeds drop. Adam rolls and wins over Bob. Bob doesn't bitch, but privately thinks that Adam's acting like a douche, which Adam really pretty clearly is. Later, Trial-Fire Trousers drop. The situation is reversed; Adam has Devil-Stitched Leggings, while Bob has Spellstrike Pants. Bob wins by default, because Adam already got an epic that run.
Adam's girlfriend - our oft-mentioned exceptionally crappy main tank - starts bitching that it was shitty of Bob to take them when Adam was still wearing blues. Raid lead tells everyone to shut the fuck up about loot while not mentioning that Adam was a dumbass for rolling on a mighty small upgrade over someone who really needed it when there are much better drops available for him to take. Adam's girlfriend continues bitching. Guild lead comes on and tells everyone to quit acting like douchetards because we're going to scare off new recruits.
Everything would be a lot more pleasant if we just kicked the two loot/drama whores, but the tank has everything out of Kara we can get based on what we've killed (no Nightbane or Netherspite loot), and none of our other tanks have shit, so we have to keep her appeased.
Fucking hell.
Unhappy- Guilds are either "You must raid all day everyday! 90% attendance!" or they don't do shit.
Fuck.
I'm still trying to figure out how the Bands of Nefarious Deeds is such a huge upgrade for either of those guys that it was worth starting a loot bitchfest over. I've personally passed on the Harbinger Bands while wearing Shattrath Wraps because the difference between the two was so minor it wasn't worth the trouble of farming up another spellpower to bracer enchant.
That was a real dick move by Warlock B with the Trial-Fire Trousers, though.
Upgrades is upgrades. And Shattrath Wraps aren't TEH PURPZ
Yeah, that's what I ended up doing. Stupid things never dropped for me since the first week we killed her (which was before Karazhan loot got buffed, so I passed on them back then). Once I realized that there were no upgrades to that slot between Maiden and Al'ar, I ground out the WSG marks and got the Veteran's Dreadweave Cuffs.
Of course, the following week, they dropped and ended up defaulting to a Holy Priest for her farming gear.
Dodging 2 hurtful strikes in a row at growth 15-16 to close out the fight = priceless
I love you BoT and pocket watch.
Well, we've only done that for Gruul's Lair so far, and there we don't take people with too shitty gear.
My epic upgrades so far:
Assassination shoulders - > Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless
Natasha's whatever -> Worgen Claw Necklace
Stealther's Helmet of Second Sight -> Malefic Mask of the Shadows
It's not like we have people in level 65 greens on our raids.
A good loot system needs to do two things:
Reward time put in. (i.e. Don't give tank shoulders to the DPS warrior alt who's in greens and is sponging shard bait when the next raid boss is unkillable without every advantage in your tank possible. )
Incentivize taking upgrades. (i.e. Don't give the "Situational trinket for saving your ass once every day while farming in your offspec" trinket to someone, and screw them out of things that are major upgrades.)
I'm probably forgetting something, but Don't Be A Dick is always good to keep in mind.
Sad: I need two or three more Shadow Labyrinth runs before I can go to Heroic Sethekk.
Sadder: I don't know if I'm geared well enough for heroics yet, at least for tanking. (2k AP/25% crit in cat, 13.5k hp/22% dodge/21k armor/420 defense in bear)
More Sadder: Oh, FUCK YOU IN THE EAR Netherwing Crystals. You too, Dragonmaw Ascendants.
Saddest: I owe guildies a total of 700G now oh gof
I'd add incentives for new content as well to keep progress moving. But that last one is my beef on zero-sum systems with straight costs. We had a Paladin who was very good but mostly in blues. We were in BWL/AQ40. So we fast tracked him with gear to get him up to speed. And ended up burying him in a hole that he couldn't get out of. We made sure he wasn't dead last for set item stuff, but non-set items he was always last to get. And we're talking about gear that was going to just get sharded anyway.
PM here or [email protected] if you love me.
Echo sez: yes, you will.
Happy : Woohoo, the expansion is being released, and its raising the level cap by 10 more levels.
Everything you do at 70 is now pointless.
All the rep grinds
All the farming primals
All the attunements
All the raiding
Is for nought! So, I can safely skip it all and just muck about in Battlegrounds! So what if my gear is shitty, in a few months, so will yours!
So yea, I have very mixed feelings about it. :?
Happy: Not being allowed to ridicule these people because it might hurt their feelings.
I'm not actually happy about that second one.
Its TBC at the moment. My guess it won't be out till next year.
Though to be honest, its a relief. Spending ages farming for epix is pointless now. Now I can just dick around doing PVP, light raiding and spend time getting my epic flyer instead of getting epic gear. Viva le Lich King!
I'm dead serious."
Xbox Live: Kunohara
My sweet, untouched Miranda
And while the seagulls are crying
We fall but our souls are flying
That's precisely my point. I hate farming gear, but I hate not being geared enough to do content even more. I want to kick boss ass, not constantly chase a carrot around.
Having to regularly re-equip all the time just makes me want to quit.
My sweet, untouched Miranda
And while the seagulls are crying
We fall but our souls are flying
I'm dead serious."
When the gear progression requires months of reputation farming, months of retarded heroic instances and a dozen group/instance quests for lame ass attunements (to get into zones that are unlocked just after you do it yourself), I start to have problems.
Skip all the grinding bullshit and I don't mind it either.
NO U
Just kick the loot whores. You and everyone else will have much more fun. It's not worth an extra couple weeks of gearing to be pissed at your raid all the time.
Yeah dude, you just get old and then die, so why ever do anything?
In fact, just kill yourself now.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
For 6 weeks in a row we have faced the Wolf in the opera event. Random my ass.
Finally the curator drops the ring!
So if I could get the emerald ripper or the blade that is rumoured to drop from the R&J event {I have never seen it} I don't ever have to go to kara again
Several people including you said "WHAT THE FUCK YOU RETARDS" etc. It didn't need to be said over and over and over like with Darakai's stupid Sun Eater.
(Not that I think people here are said "you guys" but more of a general you.)
The lore change, while annoying at times, never was that big of a deal with me. I doubt that they change it for the sake of changing it. Blizz has to find some way to continue the story inside of an MMO.
As for everyone saying "WAR is coming out RAWR". Why should it be any different in terms of lore? It's an established IP already, I don't doubt that there will be some small changes in the lore to fit in an MMO. It's the nature of the beast.
I really hope they have more than one hero class by release time. Maybe DK is the only one they have completed enough to show. I would be very disappointed if there was only one available by launch time.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
It also puts us 1 decent tank short of Void Reaver.
I guess i'm going to take the offer to skip straight to kael'thas.
Heh that happened to us. Dude just stopped logging on one day, didn't even say shit. STILL don't know where he went.
So yeah, hate: I cannot imagine the people in my raid group ever killing Kael'thas. Ever. And I'm not sure what to do about this.