If priests had a tanking tree as fucking weak as ret is, comparatively speaking, I assure you that you would not shut the hell up about it ever.
You're wrong. I would realise that I can fulfill two raid slots reasonable well, one of them very well indeed, and that if I really wanted to tank something, I could play a different class.
If priests had a tanking tree as fucking weak as ret is, comparatively speaking, I assure you that you would not shut the hell up about it ever.
You're wrong. I would realise that I can fulfill two raid slots reasonable well, one of them very well indeed, and that if I really wanted to tank something, I could play a different class.
Paladins have one effective pvp build: holy. So much for a "hybrid" class. This is because battlegrounds are meaningless, level 70 pvp is arena. Priests have more pvp builds than paladins do.
Prot is widely considered not raid viable, minus a couple token, "lawl bet you wish you had one" fights. Guess that just leaves us as healers.
Prot solo's and levels better than ret. All ret is good for is pvping
Wow, you are just chock full o' generalizations aren't you?
When you say generalizations do you mean actual in game experience? A warrior in comparable gear to me can sit pretty on a solid 2-3k hp advantage since they don't have to make the sta sacrifices I do to remain uncrushable. Bears have 5-6k more hp and so much armor that crushing blows are meaningless. The main advantages I have are 1) Really fast attacking mobs like prince and morogrim may crush a warrior, I don't have such worries and 2) AE tanking. Guess how often the 2 of these situations come up?
And yes, prot does solo faster than ret. Ret kills 1 mob every 20 seconds, prot kills 5+ every minute. It's not a generalization so much as it is fact.
Prot is widely considered not raid viable, minus a couple token, "lawl bet you wish you had one" fights. Guess that just leaves us as healers.
Prot solo's and levels better than ret. All ret is good for is pvping
Wow, you are just chock full o' generalizations aren't you?
When you say generalizations do you mean actual in game experience? A warrior in comparable gear to me can sit pretty on a solid 2-3k hp advantage since they don't have to make the sta sacrifices I do to remain uncrushable. Bears have 5-6k more hp and so much armor that crushing blows are meaningless. The main advantages I have are 1) Really fast attacking mobs like prince and morogrim may crush a warrior, I don't have such worries and 2) AE tanking. Guess how often the 2 of these situations come up?
And yes, prot does solo faster than ret. Ret kills 1 mob every 20 seconds, prot kills 5+ every minute. It's not a generalization so much as it is fact.
Yeah, for leveling in Azeroth Prot defintely has an edge over Ret, you just need to know where to go. It's not as easy in Outland, however. You can still do it but it's a lot more fun in Azeroth . The only downside is that past 40 Prot's pretty much a pile of shit for PVP. In the 30s you can really do well, but after that it's just not worth it. If you want to PVP while leveling then Ret's probably the best all around choice.
Paladin healing needs to be nerfed so there's a reason to bring more than two priests (one heal-spec solely for buffs, one shadow) to a raid.
No, nerfs are retarded. Do that and raiding gets more difficult for everyone.
They need to find ways to make the other healers just as attractive. Earth shield, totems and chain heal make shaman interesting, but generally get passed over due to a perception of being poor main healers. Druids are desired for the lifebloom +heal "feature" but that makes them one trick ponies and you only need two of them to do it. Priests have, uh, fortitude and divine spirit.
Paladins come to the game with bubbles, judgements, blessings, plate, and exceptional single target healing.
There's really no reason to not stack up with paladins because no one else has so much utility.
And I should know because I've been tanking as a paladin since 1.3 when people didn't think you could.
Judgement of Fury + consecration ftw?
Hell yeah! Happiness was when I every time I dealt holy damage to a mob it was like a sunder armor. Back in the days of 21/21/9.
I never really got much of a chance to test it, since I really did not raid much at all back in the day. But I seem to remember it pretty much pulling aggro off the tank every time. Unbelievably high amounts of threat.
Was paladin tanking only inferior because of itemization back then?
And I should know because I've been tanking as a paladin since 1.3 when people didn't think you could.
Judgement of Fury + consecration ftw?
Hell yeah! Happiness was when I every time I dealt holy damage to a mob it was like a sunder armor. Back in the days of 21/21/9.
I never really got much of a chance to test it, since I really did not raid much at all back in the day. But I seem to remember it pretty much pulling aggro off the tank every time. Unbelievably high amounts of threat.
Was paladin tanking only inferior because of itemization back then?
Itemization and lack of a taunt, basically. If you were facing something that could aggro dump you were basically fucked.
And I should know because I've been tanking as a paladin since 1.3 when people didn't think you could.
Judgement of Fury + consecration ftw?
Hell yeah! Happiness was when I every time I dealt holy damage to a mob it was like a sunder armor. Back in the days of 21/21/9.
I never really got much of a chance to test it, since I really did not raid much at all back in the day. But I seem to remember it pretty much pulling aggro off the tank every time. Unbelievably high amounts of threat.
Was paladin tanking only inferior because of itemization back then?
Paladin tanking was great back then, it was all perception and crap that made people think it couldn't be done. That and the paladin class attracts the dumbest fucking people for some ungodly reason. Everyone is always ragging on hunters and rogues, but man... paladins.
Edit: Also, what Sabin said.
JOEK TIEM! Post 1.9, the revamp patch that was supposed to make all the paladin trees viable actually ended up making holy the tanking tree. The mitigation gains in prot were all terribly week and holy provided the only hope you ever had of recovering aggro on a dump (DF holy shock). I actually loved 1.9 because I could spec holy/ret and do it all.
And I should know because I've been tanking as a paladin since 1.3 when people didn't think you could.
Judgement of Fury + consecration ftw?
Hell yeah! Happiness was when I every time I dealt holy damage to a mob it was like a sunder armor. Back in the days of 21/21/9.
I never really got much of a chance to test it, since I really did not raid much at all back in the day. But I seem to remember it pretty much pulling aggro off the tank every time. Unbelievably high amounts of threat.
Was paladin tanking only inferior because of itemization back then?
Itemization and lack of a taunt, basically. If you were facing something that could aggro dump you were basically fucked.
Paladin tanking was great back then, it was all perception and crap that made people think it couldn't be done. That and the paladin class attracts the dumbest fucking people for some ungodly reason. Everyone is always ragging on hunters and rogues, but man... paladins.
Oh and we didn't have defensive stance. 10% more damage just flat out was kinda rough.
Yeah, we're definitely up there with hunters and rogues.
Of course, I think the stupid people stand out the most in those classes since they are actually rather technical and require quite alot of skill to pvp with without dying horribly. As opposed to warriors, where skill differences aren't so blatant.
Paladins...I dunno. You always find so many awful ones, and they always have the absolute worst gear. Like greens.
Wow, this went places during my walk home from work.
SabinXL; you bring up excellent points, and I'll be happy to address them later tonight or tomorrow. From what I read, it seems we see eye to eye quite well. I don't fault Paladins wanting better dps for soloing, pvp (at least, less reliance on RNG burst) and even small grouping. I've said in the past that I don't feel druids put out unreasonable damage. I'd be fine with Paladins putting out slightly above Shaman damage, possibly at the level druids put out. I have no delusions that Ret is fine, I just have no problem with the idea that not every tree is solid gold for every class. Maybe one day they'll adjust, tweak, itemize and balance in ways that change this, but I shed no more tears over Ret than I do heavy Disc or heavy Subtlety, especially in raids.
Also, people may mock paladin tanks all they like, there are currently 3 classes in the game that can stand up to a raid boss. My rogue can tank some of the five mans, but I have no delusions about 'tanking' in a raid except for a few moments after a tank goes down and my butt clenches up. Like it or not, those three classes are Warriors, Druids and Paladins. Just because they require more out of the itemization than they're easily given, or have to work harder at it (in some regards) than other classes doesn't change the fact that you can take a quality Paladin tank and put them in front of a "skull con" raid boss, and they won't necessarily get eaten in the first hit.
As far as utility, I would be fine with Ret receiving enough threat control to hold in the 'middle of the pack', with their buffs and blessings 'mathmatically' pushing them higher, and being useful enough to justify "the ret paladin" like many guilds try to ensure having "the shadow priest" along.
I am vehemently against (based simply on game mechanics) making Ret Paladins all out viable 1200 dps in SSC and TK gear monsters. That's my job (and that of other 'pure dps classes'), thank you very much.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I am vehemently against (based simply on game mechanics) making Ret Paladins all out viable 1200 dps in SSC and TK gear monsters. That's my job (and that of other 'pure dps classes'), thank you very much.
I'm the only paladin here arguing for a ret dps increase to make them more raid viable and I don't want them at 1200. That is ridiculous. 700 to 800 and that's only if they don't gain some utility (which it looks like they won't so far). That's comparable to shadowpriest dps, without the same level of utility that a shadowpriest brings (which is a metric fuckton).
Wow, this went places during my walk home from work.
SabinXL; you bring up excellent points, and I'll be happy to address them later tonight or tomorrow. From what I read, it seems we see eye to eye quite well. I don't fault Paladins wanting better dps for soloing, pvp (at least, less reliance on RNG burst) and even small grouping. I've said in the past that I don't feel druids put out unreasonable damage. I'd be fine with Paladins putting out slightly above Shaman damage, possibly at the level druids put out. I have no delusions that Ret is fine, I just have no problem with the idea that not every tree is solid gold for every class. Maybe one day they'll adjust, tweak, itemize and balance in ways that change this, but I shed no more tears over Ret than I do heavy Disc or heavy Subtlety, especially in raids.
See, the issue I have with this right here is that Paladins are the only class where their damage tree isn't viable. Every other class has a viable option to kick the living shit out of something, and in an MMO that's kind of important. Rogues are there to do damage, and all three of their trees (more or less) add to that capability, although they do it in different ways. Priests might not be able to deal damage as a Holy or Disc, but if they spec shadow they'll do damn well. Paladins are the only class that really don't have that option right now, and I do think that needs to be fixed.
Also, people may mock paladin tanks all they like, there are currently 3 classes in the game that can stand up to a raid boss. My rogue can tank some of the five mans, but I have no delusions about 'tanking' in a raid except for a few moments after a tank goes down and my butt clenches up. Like it or not, those three classes are Warriors, Druids and Paladins. Just because they require more out of the itemization than they're easily given, or have to work harder at it (in some regards) than other classes doesn't change the fact that you can take a quality Paladin tank and put them in front of a "skull con" raid boss, and they won't necessarily get eaten in the first hit.
As far as utility, I would be fine with Ret receiving enough threat control to hold in the 'middle of the pack', with their buffs and blessings 'mathmatically' pushing them higher, and being useful enough to justify "the ret paladin" like many guilds try to ensure having "the shadow priest" along.
I am vehemently against (based simply on game mechanics) making Ret Paladins all out viable 1200 dps in SSC and TK gear monsters. That's my job (and that of other 'pure dps classes'), thank you very much.
Any good Retadin shouldn't want more damage - you're playing a hybrid. If I wanted to ruthlessly beat the shit out of things with blunt/sharp/pointy objects I'd roll a Warrior or a Rogue. I want to be able to adequately support teammates while putting up respectable damage. I don't really think that's too much to ask, and for a company like Blizzard you would think they would get the point by now. What I find kind of humorous is that they had it right before the expansion came out. It might not have been as fun w/o nifty things like crusader strike, but at least it worked. Now it doesn't. Feral Druids have it good - I played one to 59 and I loved it, you just have to make sure you balance your gear out right.
I'd be fine with Paladins putting out slightly above Shaman damage, possibly at the level druids put out.
I'm not quite sure where the idea that shaman deal poor damage comes from (actually, I am sure, lol idiot shaman.) Both my top enhance shaman and ele shaman for SSC/TK deal top notch dps (always well over 1k dps,) our best geared and most knowledgable rogue can't beat our enhance shaman's DPS unless he's in her group, and even then he'll only edge her out by tenths of a percent. On ranged biased fights, my ele shaman deals considerably more damage than my mages, hunters, and most of the warlocks too. I think that may be due in part to my mages and hunters sucking horribly, but if the disadvantage were SO BAD just being a shaman, then he shouldn't be able to deal damage at all, right?
Also, feral druid dps sucks balls, I have several well geared druids that like to pretend they can pewpew and they can't touch anyone with real dps, they're typically running at 70% of people who know how to dps. I've geared my druid for dps and tried it out, and the difference between my warlock and druid is just night and day.
EDIT: Oh, right, on topic!
Hate: Misconceptions about classes.
Happiness: Misconceptions leading to underestimation, goooo surprises!
I have one at 70. I've played Ret and Prot specs mostly. I've been on the receiving end of well geared ret pallies in pvp(they're absolute monsters). But until you gear up, Ret seems rather lackluster. I haven't raided with that spec so I dunno what kind of problems they run into but I know no one seems to want 'em in groups or raids. The Ret tree could prolly stand to be changed/buffed somehow.
Problem....how do you buff Ret without making it insanely good and overpowered? It's already good once you get the gear. Any buffs will most likely make it too good unless said buffs are very creative and carefully done. I think Blizz needs to think outside of the box on this one and come up with something truly innovative.
If they're going to buff the Ret tree then it should require people to sink a lot of points into that tree to make it viable. No hybrid specs. Only dedicated builds should be able to unlock the full power of the tree(meaning 40+ talent points....with 3-5 interdependent talents deep in the Ret tree that might be ok by themselves but need to be taken together to unlock the last ability). If you're missing even a point then X class defining ability of awesomeness is not available to you.
That power needs to come at some cost....meaning sacrificing a comparable amount of healing/survivability. For example, Priests have that Shadowform ability...unable to heal but given extra damage. Perhaps ret paladins need some sort of buffed up equivalent....Make it an aura maybe?
Aura: Angelic Wrath: Channels all of the paladin's holy power into Wrath, increasing all holy damage done by 200%(basically some kind of crazy damage buff that's really good). While this aura is active the paladin can not be shielded nor can he use Divine Shield, BoP(on himself) or healing spells. Defensive ability is decreased by X amount. Dropping the aura leaves the paladin temporarily exhausted and unable to heal for 30 seconds after.
Basically a kind of holy berserking ability whereby the paladin channels everything he has to increase offensive potential at the cost of defense and survivability.
Of course I don't see Blizz ever doing something that strays that far outside the lines but it would be cool if they did.
Also, feral druid dps sucks balls, I have several well geared druids that like to pretend they can pewpew and they can't touch anyone with real dps, they're typically running at 70% of people who know how to dps. I've geared my druid for dps and tried it out, and the difference between my warlock and druid is just night and day.
Consider that feral druids are also giving 5% crit (which is generally 5% more damage) to all members of their party. So, that's 5% more damage for 4 people, which puts a druid's contributed DPS to 70% + 4*5% or 90% of your rogue/warrior/hunter DPS. Considering a druid can toss out an innervate and a battle rez each fight, that 10% difference seems reasonable.
Garthor on
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
I'd be fine with Paladins putting out slightly above Shaman damage, possibly at the level druids put out.
Both my top enhance shaman and ele shaman for SSC/TK deal top notch dps (always well over 1k dps,) our best geared and most knowledgable rogue can't beat our enhance shaman's DPS unless he's in her group, and even then he'll only edge her out by tenths of a percent. On ranged biased fights, my ele shaman deals considerably more damage than my mages, hunters, and most of the warlocks too. I think that may be due in part to my mages and hunters sucking horribly,
By law, a hybrid class such as a shammy or paladin should not be able to out-dps a DPS class like a mage or rogue. If I can roll an Enh Shammy and do more DPS, why would anyone ever play a rogue? Likewise, if Pallies did damage like Shamans, and could still tank and heal, why roll a Shammy? Priests can heal or dps, at the cost of being squishy. Warriors can dps and tank, without healing. Druids can do all three, but still do mediocre dps, rely on HoTs, etc etc.
tldr: balance, fuckers.
TL DR on
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TavIrish Minister for DefenceRegistered Userregular
edited September 2007
If I have to listen to one more retarded guildy talk about how the patch broke their addons I swear I will scream. Just get the newest versions, fucktards.
Happy, selling Stars of Elune for 75g a pop when mine were the only ones of the AH.
Happier, I have over 1k gold for the first time ever
I'd be fine with Paladins putting out slightly above Shaman damage, possibly at the level druids put out.
Both my top enhance shaman and ele shaman for SSC/TK deal top notch dps (always well over 1k dps,) our best geared and most knowledgable rogue can't beat our enhance shaman's DPS unless he's in her group, and even then he'll only edge her out by tenths of a percent. On ranged biased fights, my ele shaman deals considerably more damage than my mages, hunters, and most of the warlocks too. I think that may be due in part to my mages and hunters sucking horribly,
By law, a hybrid class such as a shammy or paladin should not be able to out-dps a DPS class like a mage or rogue. If I can roll an Enh Shammy and do more DPS, why would anyone ever play a rogue? Likewise, if Pallies did damage like Shamans, and could still tank and heal, why roll a Shammy? Priests can heal or dps, at the cost of being squishy. Warriors can dps and tank, without healing. Druids can do all three, but still do mediocre dps, rely on HoTs, etc etc.
tldr: balance, fuckers.
Balance is not "hybrids are worse," because then the situation is EXACTLY THE REVERSE: a hybrid could DPS, but there's no reason, because a pure DPS is better. A hybrid could tank, but there's no reason, because a pure tank is better. A hybrid could heal, but there's no reason, because a pure healer is better.
Hybrids CANNOT be worse across the board because of a POTENTIAL of being able to do something else. This thinking is completely fucking moronic, and Blizzard actually has the right idea: hybrids, in their specific roles, are hybridized / support versions of that role. Hybrid DPSers tend to be more support-oriented. Hybrid tanks tend to be more DPS / AOE oriented. Hybrid healers... they're a bit all over the place, actually.
I accepted my roll as a Tank, I haven't bothered with a two handed weapon since I was 65. I am playing this character to Tank. Doing that I have changed my playstyle while solo grinding. I can still solo, I just use a different mindset while doing it then I used to.
You have a class that can be a kick ass Healer, or it can be a kick ass tank. And you also want kick ass dps?
Seg on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
I accepted my roll as a Tank, I haven't bothered with a two handed weapon since I was 65. I am playing this character to Tank. Doing that I have changed my playstyle while solo grinding. I can still solo, I just use a different mindset while doing it then I used to.
You have a class that can be a kick ass Healer, or it can be a kick ass tank. And you also want kick ass dps?
I might as well argue that you can just reroll priest, and therefore, all your roles besides tanking should be completely an utterly unviable.
I accepted my roll as a Tank, I haven't bothered with a two handed weapon since I was 65. I am playing this character to Tank. Doing that I have changed my playstyle while solo grinding. I can still solo, I just use a different mindset while doing it then I used to.
You have a class that can be a kick ass Healer, or it can be a kick ass tank. And you also want kick ass dps?
We don't make kick ass tanks, we make passable tanks. We make kick ass tanks in 5 mans but who the fuck cares about being great at 5 mans?
Let's discount all the people playing as Prot Pallies/Ret Pallies/Balance Druids/Enh Shammies/Surv Hunters/etc as "well normal people can't do that" or "then the rest of the raid's overgeared and making up for them"
Newsflash: Normal people work with what they have. They don't min/max their raids, they put the people they want to raid with in their raids and then make due. If this means a class in a spec that's not considered raid viable they'll still let them in. Why? Because to these people the game is about fun motherfuckers, not about being the best or being "viable" in everyone's eyes. If you play Ret, find a guild or some friends who let you play Ret, and then have fun and fuck the fuckers who tell you "you can't do that" because you'll prove them wrong eventually.
It was their first kill. They're going to keep using him as an MT. They don't seem too put out about it.
You pretty much missed the entire point.
And you missed mine, motherfucker.
Progression oriented raid guilds already have to ice skate uphill. Why the fuck would they keep using a prot paladin if it was that much harder.
People like you are why all these paladins are pissed off.
For any number of reasons. If you have a paladin that comes 100% of the time, is a trusted member that won't leave the guild and is actually good and you don't have any warriors that fit all that then you make him the MT as those three factors are more important than the class difference as its a little hard to progress when your MT ditches your guild.
I'm also not sure what the last comment or Opty's came from as what exis said is true.
Let's discount all the people playing as Prot Pallies/Ret Pallies/Balance Druids/Enh Shammies/Surv Hunters/etc as "well normal people can't do that" or "then the rest of the raid's overgeared and making up for them"
Newsflash: Normal people work with what they have. They don't min/max their raids, they put the people they want to raid with in their raids and then make due. If this means a class in a spec that's not considered raid viable they'll still let them in. Why? Because to these people the game is about fun motherfuckers, not about being the best or being "viable" in everyone's eyes. If you play Ret, find a guild or some friends who let you play Ret, and then have fun and fuck the fuckers who tell you "you can't do that" because you'll prove them wrong eventually.
I'm assuming you were replying to me.
I'm not saying "wtf normal people go find a warrior". I'm saying, "Yes, paladins are capable of tanking Kael. But I have doubts that it is not significantly easier with a warrior tank".
So are you saying Prot Pallies shouldn't be able to tank everything Druids and Warriors can? Because as the game is balanced right now, raid bosses are tankable by Prot Pallies. So to me (and Blizzard), it is indeed something you balance the game around.
What does it matter if it's easier with a warrior tank? He's still dead in the end AND you didn't have to alienate anyone to get there.
Because not everyone is capable of accommodating a poor group composition. Yeah, it's possible to run x instance with x composition. But why make it harder on yourself?
Why make it harder on yourself? To these people it's making it easier on themselves. They don't have to kick people out of the raid because their class doesn't match the min/max raid composition and deal with the drama fallout assosiated with that. They don't have to go on recruitment drives and fill their guild with strangers who may or may not be good because their coherance as a group more than makes up for any min/max problems. They work with what they have and they don't care that they're "making it harder" for themselves because they're too busy having fun.
I really hate how PVP makes me feel. Arena especially is so frustrating.
I'm on a 2v2 with a hunter, and we're a weird combo but we do ok (around 1600). I'm not hardcore about it but I don't like losing or playing like shit. We win some games out of sheer surprise when people aren't used to our weird combo. Sometimes these are higher rated teams that we "should" lose to. So we beat a mage/shammy team like that, then we get them again. They kill me and as they're killing my partner the shaman says "not this time noobs. your ass got lucky last time." I can't reply in /say because I'm dead.
My blood is STILL fucking boiling. Jesus christ.
Ending the night on a pally/warrior loss that we almost beat. I kind of want to shoot myself in the face.
Why make it harder on yourself? To these people it's making it easier on themselves. They don't have to kick people out of the raid because their class doesn't match the min/max raid composition and deal with the drama fallout assosiated with that. They don't have to go on recruitment drives and fill their guild with strangers who may or may not be good because their coherance as a group more than makes up for any min/max problems. They work with what they have and they don't care that they're "making it harder" for themselves because they're too busy having fun.
Okay, that's wonderful, for this particular group of people. But the vast majority of people don't make it to Kael on love. They tend to make it there on half-decent group composition and skill. Again, yes, it is possible to do this stuff with ridiculous groups. And I'm sure the odd guild does do that. But those guilds are the exception, not the rule.
In my opinion a raid group of people who know each other, get along well AND are skilled regardless of composition will do better than any 25 lootwhores out to stab one another in the back that are the 'proper' composition.
Posts
You're wrong. I would realise that I can fulfill two raid slots reasonable well, one of them very well indeed, and that if I really wanted to tank something, I could play a different class.
Paladins have one effective pvp build: holy. So much for a "hybrid" class. This is because battlegrounds are meaningless, level 70 pvp is arena. Priests have more pvp builds than paladins do.
And yes, I'm praying that the buffs change this.
When you say generalizations do you mean actual in game experience? A warrior in comparable gear to me can sit pretty on a solid 2-3k hp advantage since they don't have to make the sta sacrifices I do to remain uncrushable. Bears have 5-6k more hp and so much armor that crushing blows are meaningless. The main advantages I have are 1) Really fast attacking mobs like prince and morogrim may crush a warrior, I don't have such worries and 2) AE tanking. Guess how often the 2 of these situations come up?
And yes, prot does solo faster than ret. Ret kills 1 mob every 20 seconds, prot kills 5+ every minute. It's not a generalization so much as it is fact.
LoL: failboattootoot
Hell yeah! Happiness was when I every time I dealt holy damage to a mob it was like a sunder armor. Back in the days of 21/21/9.
LoL: failboattootoot
Yeah, for leveling in Azeroth Prot defintely has an edge over Ret, you just need to know where to go. It's not as easy in Outland, however. You can still do it but it's a lot more fun in Azeroth
Ghalan - Tauren Druid
No, nerfs are retarded. Do that and raiding gets more difficult for everyone.
They need to find ways to make the other healers just as attractive. Earth shield, totems and chain heal make shaman interesting, but generally get passed over due to a perception of being poor main healers. Druids are desired for the lifebloom +heal "feature" but that makes them one trick ponies and you only need two of them to do it. Priests have, uh, fortitude and divine spirit.
Paladins come to the game with bubbles, judgements, blessings, plate, and exceptional single target healing.
There's really no reason to not stack up with paladins because no one else has so much utility.
I never really got much of a chance to test it, since I really did not raid much at all back in the day. But I seem to remember it pretty much pulling aggro off the tank every time. Unbelievably high amounts of threat.
Was paladin tanking only inferior because of itemization back then?
Itemization and lack of a taunt, basically. If you were facing something that could aggro dump you were basically fucked.
Ghalan - Tauren Druid
Paladin tanking was great back then, it was all perception and crap that made people think it couldn't be done. That and the paladin class attracts the dumbest fucking people for some ungodly reason. Everyone is always ragging on hunters and rogues, but man... paladins.
Edit: Also, what Sabin said.
JOEK TIEM! Post 1.9, the revamp patch that was supposed to make all the paladin trees viable actually ended up making holy the tanking tree. The mitigation gains in prot were all terribly week and holy provided the only hope you ever had of recovering aggro on a dump (DF holy shock). I actually loved 1.9 because I could spec holy/ret and do it all.
LoL: failboattootoot
Ah, right, I remember now.
Yeah, we're definitely up there with hunters and rogues.
Of course, I think the stupid people stand out the most in those classes since they are actually rather technical and require quite alot of skill to pvp with without dying horribly. As opposed to warriors, where skill differences aren't so blatant.
Paladins...I dunno. You always find so many awful ones, and they always have the absolute worst gear. Like greens.
SabinXL; you bring up excellent points, and I'll be happy to address them later tonight or tomorrow. From what I read, it seems we see eye to eye quite well. I don't fault Paladins wanting better dps for soloing, pvp (at least, less reliance on RNG burst) and even small grouping. I've said in the past that I don't feel druids put out unreasonable damage. I'd be fine with Paladins putting out slightly above Shaman damage, possibly at the level druids put out. I have no delusions that Ret is fine, I just have no problem with the idea that not every tree is solid gold for every class. Maybe one day they'll adjust, tweak, itemize and balance in ways that change this, but I shed no more tears over Ret than I do heavy Disc or heavy Subtlety, especially in raids.
Also, people may mock paladin tanks all they like, there are currently 3 classes in the game that can stand up to a raid boss. My rogue can tank some of the five mans, but I have no delusions about 'tanking' in a raid except for a few moments after a tank goes down and my butt clenches up. Like it or not, those three classes are Warriors, Druids and Paladins. Just because they require more out of the itemization than they're easily given, or have to work harder at it (in some regards) than other classes doesn't change the fact that you can take a quality Paladin tank and put them in front of a "skull con" raid boss, and they won't necessarily get eaten in the first hit.
As far as utility, I would be fine with Ret receiving enough threat control to hold in the 'middle of the pack', with their buffs and blessings 'mathmatically' pushing them higher, and being useful enough to justify "the ret paladin" like many guilds try to ensure having "the shadow priest" along.
I am vehemently against (based simply on game mechanics) making Ret Paladins all out viable 1200 dps in SSC and TK gear monsters. That's my job (and that of other 'pure dps classes'), thank you very much.
I'm the only paladin here arguing for a ret dps increase to make them more raid viable and I don't want them at 1200. That is ridiculous. 700 to 800 and that's only if they don't gain some utility (which it looks like they won't so far). That's comparable to shadowpriest dps, without the same level of utility that a shadowpriest brings (which is a metric fuckton).
LoL: failboattootoot
See, the issue I have with this right here is that Paladins are the only class where their damage tree isn't viable. Every other class has a viable option to kick the living shit out of something, and in an MMO that's kind of important. Rogues are there to do damage, and all three of their trees (more or less) add to that capability, although they do it in different ways. Priests might not be able to deal damage as a Holy or Disc, but if they spec shadow they'll do damn well. Paladins are the only class that really don't have that option right now, and I do think that needs to be fixed.
Any good Retadin shouldn't want more damage - you're playing a hybrid. If I wanted to ruthlessly beat the shit out of things with blunt/sharp/pointy objects I'd roll a Warrior or a Rogue. I want to be able to adequately support teammates while putting up respectable damage. I don't really think that's too much to ask, and for a company like Blizzard you would think they would get the point by now. What I find kind of humorous is that they had it right before the expansion came out. It might not have been as fun w/o nifty things like crusader strike, but at least it worked. Now it doesn't. Feral Druids have it good - I played one to 59 and I loved it, you just have to make sure you balance your gear out right.
Ghalan - Tauren Druid
Happiness: A bunch of CDs I ordered from Amazon came in today.
Hope: That my raid takes holidays for this weekend.
I'm not quite sure where the idea that shaman deal poor damage comes from (actually, I am sure, lol idiot shaman.) Both my top enhance shaman and ele shaman for SSC/TK deal top notch dps (always well over 1k dps,) our best geared and most knowledgable rogue can't beat our enhance shaman's DPS unless he's in her group, and even then he'll only edge her out by tenths of a percent. On ranged biased fights, my ele shaman deals considerably more damage than my mages, hunters, and most of the warlocks too. I think that may be due in part to my mages and hunters sucking horribly, but if the disadvantage were SO BAD just being a shaman, then he shouldn't be able to deal damage at all, right?
Also, feral druid dps sucks balls, I have several well geared druids that like to pretend they can pewpew and they can't touch anyone with real dps, they're typically running at 70% of people who know how to dps. I've geared my druid for dps and tried it out, and the difference between my warlock and druid is just night and day.
EDIT: Oh, right, on topic!
Hate: Misconceptions about classes.
Happiness: Misconceptions leading to underestimation, goooo surprises!
I have one at 70. I've played Ret and Prot specs mostly. I've been on the receiving end of well geared ret pallies in pvp(they're absolute monsters). But until you gear up, Ret seems rather lackluster. I haven't raided with that spec so I dunno what kind of problems they run into but I know no one seems to want 'em in groups or raids. The Ret tree could prolly stand to be changed/buffed somehow.
Problem....how do you buff Ret without making it insanely good and overpowered? It's already good once you get the gear. Any buffs will most likely make it too good unless said buffs are very creative and carefully done. I think Blizz needs to think outside of the box on this one and come up with something truly innovative.
If they're going to buff the Ret tree then it should require people to sink a lot of points into that tree to make it viable. No hybrid specs. Only dedicated builds should be able to unlock the full power of the tree(meaning 40+ talent points....with 3-5 interdependent talents deep in the Ret tree that might be ok by themselves but need to be taken together to unlock the last ability). If you're missing even a point then X class defining ability of awesomeness is not available to you.
That power needs to come at some cost....meaning sacrificing a comparable amount of healing/survivability. For example, Priests have that Shadowform ability...unable to heal but given extra damage. Perhaps ret paladins need some sort of buffed up equivalent....Make it an aura maybe?
Aura: Angelic Wrath: Channels all of the paladin's holy power into Wrath, increasing all holy damage done by 200%(basically some kind of crazy damage buff that's really good). While this aura is active the paladin can not be shielded nor can he use Divine Shield, BoP(on himself) or healing spells. Defensive ability is decreased by X amount. Dropping the aura leaves the paladin temporarily exhausted and unable to heal for 30 seconds after.
Basically a kind of holy berserking ability whereby the paladin channels everything he has to increase offensive potential at the cost of defense and survivability.
Of course I don't see Blizz ever doing something that strays that far outside the lines but it would be cool if they did.
Consider that feral druids are also giving 5% crit (which is generally 5% more damage) to all members of their party. So, that's 5% more damage for 4 people, which puts a druid's contributed DPS to 70% + 4*5% or 90% of your rogue/warrior/hunter DPS. Considering a druid can toss out an innervate and a battle rez each fight, that 10% difference seems reasonable.
By law, a hybrid class such as a shammy or paladin should not be able to out-dps a DPS class like a mage or rogue. If I can roll an Enh Shammy and do more DPS, why would anyone ever play a rogue? Likewise, if Pallies did damage like Shamans, and could still tank and heal, why roll a Shammy? Priests can heal or dps, at the cost of being squishy. Warriors can dps and tank, without healing. Druids can do all three, but still do mediocre dps, rely on HoTs, etc etc.
tldr: balance, fuckers.
Happy, selling Stars of Elune for 75g a pop when mine were the only ones of the AH.
Happier, I have over 1k gold for the first time ever
Balance is not "hybrids are worse," because then the situation is EXACTLY THE REVERSE: a hybrid could DPS, but there's no reason, because a pure DPS is better. A hybrid could tank, but there's no reason, because a pure tank is better. A hybrid could heal, but there's no reason, because a pure healer is better.
Hybrids CANNOT be worse across the board because of a POTENTIAL of being able to do something else. This thinking is completely fucking moronic, and Blizzard actually has the right idea: hybrids, in their specific roles, are hybridized / support versions of that role. Hybrid DPSers tend to be more support-oriented. Hybrid tanks tend to be more DPS / AOE oriented. Hybrid healers... they're a bit all over the place, actually.
You have a class that can be a kick ass Healer, or it can be a kick ass tank. And you also want kick ass dps?
If specced for it, then yes.
I might as well argue that you can just reroll priest, and therefore, all your roles besides tanking should be completely an utterly unviable.
POTENTIAL != ABILITY
We don't make kick ass tanks, we make passable tanks. We make kick ass tanks in 5 mans but who the fuck cares about being great at 5 mans?
LoL: failboattootoot
I'd say that's more then passable.
In most cases it's easier with a warrior, though. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it's worth the effort it would take to do it.
You pretty much missed the entire point.
Newsflash: Normal people work with what they have. They don't min/max their raids, they put the people they want to raid with in their raids and then make due. If this means a class in a spec that's not considered raid viable they'll still let them in. Why? Because to these people the game is about fun motherfuckers, not about being the best or being "viable" in everyone's eyes. If you play Ret, find a guild or some friends who let you play Ret, and then have fun and fuck the fuckers who tell you "you can't do that" because you'll prove them wrong eventually.
And you missed mine, motherfucker.
Progression oriented raid guilds already have to ice skate uphill. Why the fuck would they keep using a prot paladin if it was that much harder.
People like you are why all these paladins are pissed off.
For any number of reasons. If you have a paladin that comes 100% of the time, is a trusted member that won't leave the guild and is actually good and you don't have any warriors that fit all that then you make him the MT as those three factors are more important than the class difference as its a little hard to progress when your MT ditches your guild.
I'm also not sure what the last comment or Opty's came from as what exis said is true.
I'm assuming you were replying to me.
I'm not saying "wtf normal people go find a warrior". I'm saying, "Yes, paladins are capable of tanking Kael. But I have doubts that it is not significantly easier with a warrior tank".
Because, "Well shit my guild can't seem to keep prot warriors, guess we'll use this paladin" is not something you balance a game around.
LoL: failboattootoot
Because not everyone is capable of accommodating a poor group composition. Yeah, it's possible to run x instance with x composition. But why make it harder on yourself?
I'm on a 2v2 with a hunter, and we're a weird combo but we do ok (around 1600). I'm not hardcore about it but I don't like losing or playing like shit. We win some games out of sheer surprise when people aren't used to our weird combo. Sometimes these are higher rated teams that we "should" lose to. So we beat a mage/shammy team like that, then we get them again. They kill me and as they're killing my partner the shaman says "not this time noobs. your ass got lucky last time." I can't reply in /say because I'm dead.
My blood is STILL fucking boiling. Jesus christ.
Ending the night on a pally/warrior loss that we almost beat. I kind of want to shoot myself in the face.
Okay, that's wonderful, for this particular group of people. But the vast majority of people don't make it to Kael on love. They tend to make it there on half-decent group composition and skill. Again, yes, it is possible to do this stuff with ridiculous groups. And I'm sure the odd guild does do that. But those guilds are the exception, not the rule.