Yes, I'm ignoring it because it's making a comparison with sony and that's a straw man argument.
It's also not a good way of presenting an argument.
It's also not the smartest post in this thread.
Every comparison someone makes isn't a straw man argument. How old are you, 14? Because anyone's argument that you can't impugn with logic you scream "TEH STRAWWWWWWW MANNNNNNNNN." Sorry, that doesn't work with me.
Let me explain, if your going to say company A is DOOOOMED because of BILLIONS of dollars in losses, you just can't ignore the losses company B has taken if you're predicting TEH DOOOOOM because of said losses for company A. Especially if company B (their direct competition) has taken bigger losses.
There's nothing straw man about it. Microsoft has twice the "next-gen" consoles in people's homes that Sony does with half the loss from the past fiscal year. FACT.
Show me where the straw man is genius. LOL.
Plorp
"Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted."
And fade to black.
I misreprestnted your position? So you haven't been going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about the losses that MS has been suffering in their H+E division and how those losses predict doom for the Xbox?
Still, you haven't refuted a single thing I've said. You just keep hiding behind your ridiculous "STRAW MAN" defense. Still, I ask, are you 14?
Quick lesson in debate:
You can't bring up an issue and then claim "STRAW MANNNNNN" when someone makes an apt comparison (USING YOUR OWN MOTHER FUCKING LOGIC) illustrating how your arguments are nothing more than the unhinged, illogical ramblings of a mouth-breather.
"Fade to Black" WTF? You're only supposed to type something like that when you've actually made a point. Not after a ridiculous attempt to hide behind some sort of "deabte technicality."
MS looses 6 billion on Xbox in about 8 or so years. Sony looses 2 billion on playstation in a year.
Clearly Sony and MS are both doomed, and nintendo should buy them both. Then nintendo should buy PAX to show off that they have bought sony and microsoft. then, they need to buy a country, we'll say Australia, to host their operations in search of global dominance.
MS looses 6 billion on Xbox in about 8 or so years. Sony looses 2 billion on playstation in a year.
Clearly Sony and MS are both doomed, and nintendo should buy them both. Then nintendo should buy PAX to show off that they have bought sony and microsoft. then, they need to buy a country, we'll say Australia, to host their operations in search of global dominance.
also, PAX?
I always used to say that the reason Nintendo released the mech game with the Super Scope was because they wanted to train children to become soldiers in the Great Nintendo Army of 2012.
I will eat my cock if Nintendo does not amass a great army of fans and invade Sony by 2012.
I won't actually eat my cock
PAX?
syndalis on
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Also what you see as millions dollars "lost" is to MS millions of dollars "invested". I know this is a difficult conceptual chasm to cross, but do try won't you? If your claim is that it would have been a smarter business decision for Microsoft to put the money in the bank and sit on it then you have a faulty notion of what MS are attempting (which, for the sake of us all, I won't try to quantify for you, because it's fairly obvious).
Again, it's billion, about 5 billion dollars, over 6 years.
That's what they did. Lose a couple of of billion.
Not millions. Hundreds of millions, sure!
So at this point, what are they trying to do other then lose money? Investment? Sure, I'd agree if since the dawn of their inception they would have had some sort of profit trickle in but they didn't.
They haven't
For 6 years
losing millions
Every quarter
For 6 years
adding up to billions of dollars lost.
Billions.
You got it?
Fucking lie. Known fact that the Xbox division turned a huge profit the quarter Halo 2 was released in 04.
And do you really, honestly believe that Microsoft can't stand to lose 5 billion dollars? Anybody want to give this guy a ballpark on MS' net worth?
Yes, I'm ignoring it because it's making a comparison with sony and that's a straw man argument.
It's also not a good way of presenting an argument.
It's also not the smartest post in this thread.
Every comparison someone makes isn't a straw man argument. How old are you, 14? Because anyone's argument that you can't impugn with logic you scream "TEH STRAWWWWWWW MANNNNNNNNN." Sorry, that doesn't work with me.
Let me explain, if your going to say company A is DOOOOMED because of BILLIONS of dollars in losses, you just can't ignore the losses company B has taken if you're predicting TEH DOOOOOM because of said losses for company A. Especially if company B (their direct competition) has taken bigger losses.
There's nothing straw man about it. Microsoft has twice the "next-gen" consoles in people's homes that Sony does with half the loss from the past fiscal year. FACT.
Show me where the straw man is genius. LOL.
Plorp
"Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted."
And fade to black.
an analogy isn't a misrepresentation. You've essentially presented a strawman in order to strengthen your position of claiming a strawman. How Ironic.
Example of a strawman:
"Evolution occurred. We have a shit-ton of evidence".
"So you're saying that we're just monkeys and that we should all start doing drugs and fucking young girls. Since we aren't monkeys and not all of us do drugs and fuck young girls, therefore evolution didn't occur."
Mind you, there's nothing wrong with doing drugs or fucking young girls.
quote:
The Xbox game console is hot, but its division has lost $4 billion in four years and isn't yet in the black. The mobile-software division, also losing money, has just a sliver of the market for cell phone handsets. Microsoft Business Solutions, after acquiring Great Plains Software for $1.1 billion and Navision for $1.4 billion, is supposed to deliver $10 billion in sales by 2010. At its current 6% growth rate, MBS will attain that goal in 43 years.The Xbox game console is hot, but its division has lost $4 billion in four years and isn't yet in the black. The mobile-software division, also losing money, has just a sliver of the market for cell phone handsets. Microsoft Business Solutions, after acquiring Great Plains Software for $1.1 billion and Navision for $1.4 billion, is supposed to deliver $10 billion in sales by 2010. At its current 6% growth rate, MBS will attain that goal in 43 years. http://www.forbes.com/home/technolog...microsoft.html
So 4 billion up to 2005, 1.2 in 2006, 1.3 in 2007 and the year isn't even over yet!
Read the part where is the article says they put the losses on FY 2007 results and that ended last week (at the time of the article July 5, 2007) Meiz, if you're going to put forth a ridiculous DOOOOOOOOOOOM theory, at least get your facts straight.
So...over the past five years MS has lost ~$6 billion on the H+E division and that spells DOOOOOOM for the Xbox...but the fact that Sony (the UNDISPUTED champ of the console war the past 2 generations) has lost ONE THIRD THAT AMOUNT (~$2 Billion, for those who struggle with TEH MATHS) the past single YEAR on their games division is no problem at all? Puhhh-lease.
Mind you, this loss happened the same year they launched the PS3.
But the Xbox is DOOOOOOOOOMED?
This is the smartest post in this thread in of course Meiz completley ignores it.
First of all you dissected only part of my post for some reason.
Then you present the fact that microsoft is forecasting a profit in 2008 and that Sony is also losing money.
Sony losing money in comparisson is moot because they are not Microsoft. They're their own entity with their own problems. That wasn't the focus of the debate. Moot point.
What does predictions that have to do with the fact that currently their ventures are losing money, VPs are selling hefty amounts of stock, Moore is gone and everything else I've enumerated stating that business isn't terribly good? Writing in caps and abloo ablooing with shoddy arguments and taking a snipit of what I said putting it into context and placing a counter argument is straw maning.
They've also made predictions in the past regarding turning a profit:
syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
edited July 2007
I guess the reason Sony comes up is a simple question of: If a company in the game business loses 2 billion dollars in a year, should they consider getting out of the game? Or should they simply recognize that there is money to be made here, and even if they have problems for many years down the road, as long as they have the means to continue doing it the promise of turning a profit in the vastly growing field far outweighs any red ink they may have to pen in for 1, 5... even 10-15 years.
This industry isn't going anywhere but up. A market crash like the one on the heels of the 2600 is practically an impossibility at this point, because gaming has wormed itself into so many facets of society that people will always be able to make a buck off of it.
So I would just like to state that while I know there is absolutely no way to change your mind (except for 2009 coming to pass with Microsoft still going strong, at which point you will probably have forgotten this entire thing and be talking about how MS is doomed in 2010), I hope the fact that you are terribly, TERRIBLY outnumbered and outmanned on the issue, by many longtime and rational posters on the forum, sinks in at least a tiny bit.
syndalis on
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Vicious_GSRDudePrincipality of ZeonRegistered Userregular
edited July 2007
Wow, I just woke up had some breakfast and came on. Shit I thought you guys would have been done by now.
Look, I will be on ventrilo in 30 minutes to an hour and I think I could better explain my stance on the argument with speech rather then text.
But to continue to fuel the fire here are a few other predictions I have come to think will happen.
-Nintendo Wii will be swept under the rug come mid 2008. No one will want one.
-Xbox 360 will announce big loses some time next year in 2008. (if they have not fell yet)
-PS3 will sell way over it's competitors mid to end of 2008 when the price goes lower for the PS2 guys to buy in.
I am not going to bother supporting my arguments with facts or links. It didn't seem to sink in the last time I did it. So lets just see if I turn out to be right about all this crap.
(By the way for the whole 'WHY IS SONY NOT DOOMED IF 360 CAN BE VICIOUS?!?")
The PS3 was built with multiple sources in mind for profit.
-PS1 games (as empty as it is)
-PS2 games (still a large market)
-PS3 games (Starting to build up)
-Blu-Ray movies (looking to be the dominate format for HD) {It's also cheaper then HD-DVD when I looked yesterday}
-Online distribution with bigger titles then what the 360 offers. (Big games that could be sold in a brick and mortar location that are being sold online instead)
Sony does not have as much money as Microsoft, I get that. But Sony has ties with companies in the media industry that Microsoft doesn't. Sony has a big film industry offering that support Blu-Ray and are aiming to make it the standard format for HD content. HD-DVD prices are starting to go higher then Blu-Ray lately (look at 300) and that is going to have a sharp impact on sales. If for any reason Sony fails to deliver with games on the PS3 then the use of the hardware as a Blu-Ray player can back it up. It still seems stupid to me that they put so much in a console when they could have reduced the price by removing the Blu-Ry drive, but it is going to help them in the long run. Sony has more to lose if the PS3 falls so they are going to make damn sure that it keeps up. I don't think Microsoft looks at the Xbox like Sony looks at the PS3.
No. If the Wii is, as you say, going to vanish 2008 then the benefactor is Microsoft with the 360. With a lead over the PS3 it is the console that will eat lost Ninty sales.
Though that wont happen. Wii Fit, while in my opinion crap, will sell millions upon millions.
Also what you see as millions dollars "lost" is to MS millions of dollars "invested". I know this is a difficult conceptual chasm to cross, but do try won't you? If your claim is that it would have been a smarter business decision for Microsoft to put the money in the bank and sit on it then you have a faulty notion of what MS are attempting (which, for the sake of us all, I won't try to quantify for you, because it's fairly obvious).
Again, it's billion, about 5 billion dollars, over 6 years.
That's what they did. Lose a couple of of billion.
Not millions. Hundreds of millions, sure!
So at this point, what are they trying to do other then lose money? Investment? Sure, I'd agree if since the dawn of their inception they would have had some sort of profit trickle in but they didn't.
They haven't
For 6 years
losing millions
Every quarter
For 6 years
adding up to billions of dollars lost.
Billions.
You got it?
Fucking lie. Known fact that the Xbox division turned a huge profit the quarter Halo 2 was released in 04.
And do you really, honestly believe that Microsoft can't stand to lose 5 billion dollars? Anybody want to give this guy a ballpark on MS' net worth?
So, how does a profit that's turned 3 years ago reverse the fact that they're still losing money? They can turn a profit only to fall into another billion dollar lull?
If Vicious's predictions are on the money, I will eat my cock. Swear to Christ, I will turn on my webcam and start showing down on what was once my manhood.
Karf on
0
Vicious_GSRDudePrincipality of ZeonRegistered Userregular
If Vicious's predictions are on the money, I will eat my cock. Swear to Christ, I will turn on my webcam and start showing down on what was once my manhood.
If Vicious's predictions are on the money, I will eat my cock. Swear to Christ, I will turn on my webcam and start showing down on what was once my manhood.
Meiz why is it so hard to understand for you that the only reason MS was still in the red is because of extra billion dollars the new extended warranty/refunds are costing them. If not for that they would already be in the black and the returns from the division are still rising. They aren't going to "magically" come out of the red next year, they have been getting to that point steadily for awhile and realistically should already be there, but the hardware problems on the 360 fucked them there.
But it dosen't change thier upward trend, and from here on out they are set to make increasing profits every year.
If Vicious's predictions are on the money, I will eat my cock. Swear to Christ, I will turn on my webcam and start showing down on what was once my manhood.
Please don't >_<
Don't worry, it's Karf. He's used to cocks in his mouth on a daily basis.
TheFid2 on
0
Vicious_GSRDudePrincipality of ZeonRegistered Userregular
Also what you see as millions dollars "lost" is to MS millions of dollars "invested". I know this is a difficult conceptual chasm to cross, but do try won't you? If your claim is that it would have been a smarter business decision for Microsoft to put the money in the bank and sit on it then you have a faulty notion of what MS are attempting (which, for the sake of us all, I won't try to quantify for you, because it's fairly obvious).
Again, it's billion, about 5 billion dollars, over 6 years.
That's what they did. Lose a couple of of billion.
Not millions. Hundreds of millions, sure!
So at this point, what are they trying to do other then lose money? Investment? Sure, I'd agree if since the dawn of their inception they would have had some sort of profit trickle in but they didn't.
They haven't
For 6 years
losing millions
Every quarter
For 6 years
adding up to billions of dollars lost.
Billions.
You got it?
Fucking lie. Known fact that the Xbox division turned a huge profit the quarter Halo 2 was released in 04.
And do you really, honestly believe that Microsoft can't stand to lose 5 billion dollars? Anybody want to give this guy a ballpark on MS' net worth?
So, how does a profit that's turned 3 years ago reverse the fact that they're still losing money? They can turn a profit only to fall into another billion dollar lull?
From what I am reading in that article, it states they didn't break even. You can make a profit on software but when that profit is overshadowed by a big deficit then it's kinda moot. I could be reading it wrong though.
Vicious_GSR on
0
Clutch414Dodge Swinger.......WHENEVER IT FEELS RIGHT!!!Registered Userregular
quote:
The Xbox game console is hot, but its division has lost $4 billion in four years and isn't yet in the black. The mobile-software division, also losing money, has just a sliver of the market for cell phone handsets. Microsoft Business Solutions, after acquiring Great Plains Software for $1.1 billion and Navision for $1.4 billion, is supposed to deliver $10 billion in sales by 2010. At its current 6% growth rate, MBS will attain that goal in 43 years.The Xbox game console is hot, but its division has lost $4 billion in four years and isn't yet in the black. The mobile-software division, also losing money, has just a sliver of the market for cell phone handsets. Microsoft Business Solutions, after acquiring Great Plains Software for $1.1 billion and Navision for $1.4 billion, is supposed to deliver $10 billion in sales by 2010. At its current 6% growth rate, MBS will attain that goal in 43 years. http://www.forbes.com/home/technolog...microsoft.html
So 4 billion up to 2005, 1.2 in 2006, 1.3 in 2007 and the year isn't even over yet!
Read the part where is the article says they put the losses on FY 2007 results and that ended last week (at the time of the article July 5, 2007) Meiz, if you're going to put forth a ridiculous DOOOOOOOOOOOM theory, at least get your facts straight.
So...over the past five years MS has lost ~$6 billion on the H+E division and that spells DOOOOOOM for the Xbox...but the fact that Sony (the UNDISPUTED champ of the console war the past 2 generations) has lost ONE THIRD THAT AMOUNT (~$2 Billion, for those who struggle with TEH MATHS) the past single YEAR on their games division is no problem at all? Puhhh-lease.
Mind you, this loss happened the same year they launched the PS3.
But the Xbox is DOOOOOOOOOMED?
This is the smartest post in this thread in of course Meiz completley ignores it.
First of all you dissected only part of my post for some reason.
Then you present the fact that microsoft is forecasting a profit in 2008 and that Sony is also losing money.
Sony losing money in comparisson is moot because they are not Microsoft. They're their own entity with their own problems. That wasn't the focus of the debate. Moot point.
What does predictions that have to do with the fact that currently their ventures are losing money, VPs are selling hefty amounts of stock, Moore is gone and everything else I've enumerated stating that business isn't terribly good? Writing in caps and abloo ablooing with shoddy arguments and taking a snipit of what I said putting it into context and placing a counter argument is straw maning.
They've also made predictions in the past regarding turning a profit:
*Sigh* Please tell me your really not this dense. There you go again with that imaginary straw man argument.
I don't know if it intentional or not, but you're completely missing the point of injecting Sony into this debate.
A: They are both competing for the same market share (along with Nintendo).
B: If MS is in trouble (WHICH IS YOUR GODDAMNED POINT) because of a $1 billion loss in FY 2007 (which when added to their previous losses =~$6 billion overall), then what does that say about Sony (who is in DIRECT competition with MS for market share) losing one-third of that amount in less than one-sixth of the time while having half the consoles in people's homes that MS does?
Does that mean that Sony is doomed? No. Sony is going to be around until the end of this gen and into next gen. As is MS. As is Nintendo. MS doesn't care about how much they have lost. Moreover, the bulk of their losses in the H+E division came last generation when they were trying to get a foothold in the market (the market where Sony was the established KING of console gaming 2x) and would spend ANY amount to gain market share. Now, they are on the precipice of turning a profit on the 360 this FY and they're just going to abandon it?
Why would MS just go and give up on the Xbox when any reasonable person would tell you that they, at the very least, have closed the gap between them and Sony (and arguably overtaken) this generation? Are you kidding me? How does it feel when the demons come and visit you at night?
So, how does a profit that's turned 3 years ago reverse the fact that they're still losing money? They can turn a profit only to fall into another billion dollar lull?
Research and Development. Same reason Sony's game division is in the hole right now, even with the strong sales of PS2 products.
It is an investment. You have to spend money to make money, and all that.
I think he meant with the downloadable games, IE Live Arcade. Which is true, the PS3 has no limit in megs to the downloadable games, like Warhawk, ect.
Meiz why is it so hard to understand for you that the only reason MS was still in the red is because of extra billion dollars the new extended warranty/refunds are costing them. If not for that they would already be in the black and the returns from the division are still rising. They aren't going to "magically" come out of the red next year, they have been getting to that point steadily for awhile and realistically should already be there, but the hardware problems on the 360 fucked them there.
But it dosen't change thier upward trend, and from here on out they are set to make increasing profits every year.
I question the validity of this statement however it's a moot point. I already enumerated the fact that the hardware failures was one of the elements that lead me to believe MS is pulling out of the race.
Like I said, September and everything after will be the turning point when Halo 3 comes out but if they're still stagnating, I fear the worst. And who's to say they can keep that trend going anyways?
Meiz on
0
Vicious_GSRDudePrincipality of ZeonRegistered Userregular
-Blu-Ray movies (looking to be the dominate format for HD) {It's also cheaper then HD-DVD when I looked yesterday}
-Online distribution with bigger titles then what the 360 offers. (Big games that could be sold in a brick and mortar location that are being sold online instead)
The vast majority of analysts believe that by the time any clear "winner" could be announced in the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray war, digital distribution will have greatly surpassed both.
And "bigger titles than what the 360 offers?" Are you not up on current events? 99% of the big name titles that used to be PS3 exclusives are announcing simultaneous 360 releases. The last holdout is FFXIII.
Sorry dude, but history and current events do not jive with your predictions.
I don't think Microsoft looks at the Xbox like Sony looks at the PS3.
That is a very, very bad assumption.
I am sorry but you obviously didn't read what I wrote. Brick and mortar (as learned business folk should know) refers to physical store sales. The PSN network offers games that can be sold in a brick and mortar establishment but instead offer them online or offer both. The online distribution that Sony is offering has full featured games that 360 does not. However 360 does offer a great deal of smaller titles that combined form a big selection for the consumer that currently the PSN network does not offer yet. The 360 Arcade however does not offer games like Warhawk and the likes.
Also, I think Sony looks at the PS3 has a total media center while Microsoft just looks at it as an expansion of there brand to the television audience. Microsoft shows very clear signs of staying away from optical media in general.
So, how does a profit that's turned 3 years ago reverse the fact that they're still losing money? They can turn a profit only to fall into another billion dollar lull?
Research and Development. Same reason Sony's game division is in the hole right now, even with the strong sales of PS2 products.
It is an investment. You have to spend money to make money, and all that.
They've been spending billions over 6 years though. I mean I could understand the whole R&D side of the argument if they were actually doing R&D.
They had a head start at the market, kept losing money yet are still losing money.
Also, I think Sony looks at the PS3 has a total media center while Microsoft just looks at it as an expansion of there brand to the television audience. Microsoft shows very clear signs of staying away from optical media in general.
Meiz why is it so hard to understand for you that the only reason MS was still in the red is because of extra billion dollars the new extended warranty/refunds are costing them. If not for that they would already be in the black and the returns from the division are still rising. They aren't going to "magically" come out of the red next year, they have been getting to that point steadily for awhile and realistically should already be there, but the hardware problems on the 360 fucked them there.
But it dosen't change thier upward trend, and from here on out they are set to make increasing profits every year.
I question the validity of this statement however it's a moot point. I already enumerated the fact that the hardware failures was one of the elements that lead me to believe MS is pulling out of the race.
Like I said, September and everything after will be the turning point when Halo 3 comes out but if they're still stagnating, I fear the worst. And who's to say they can keep that trend going anyways?
They have one of the best holiday line-ups in video game history, and a price drop is likely coming soon... Your doom and gloom predictions (still) make absolutely no sense. You clearly do not understand that (as has been said MANY times), the most successful consoles have always taken an early loss to reap rewards later. Most people call this an investment.
Also, I think Sony looks at the PS3 has a total media center while Microsoft just looks at it as an expansion of there brand to the television audience. Microsoft shows very clear signs of staying away from optical media in general.
So, how does a profit that's turned 3 years ago reverse the fact that they're still losing money? They can turn a profit only to fall into another billion dollar lull?
Research and Development. Same reason Sony's game division is in the hole right now, even with the strong sales of PS2 products.
It is an investment. You have to spend money to make money, and all that.
They've been spending billions over 6 years though. I mean I could understand the whole R&D side of the argument if they were actually doing R&D.
They had a head start at the market, kept losing money yet are still losing money.
Again, aside from the Wii, no consoles do anything besides lose money the first year. If they lose another billion dollars between now and this time next year, then you will have an argument, not now.
Also, I think Sony looks at the PS3 has a total media center while Microsoft just looks at it as an expansion of there brand to the television audience. Microsoft shows very clear signs of staying away from optical media in general.
That is why you can stream things from PC, watch videos, listen to music, etc? What other kind of media is there?
Augh
Great, that is staying away from optical media is it not?
...But DVD's (Which you can also put .wmv and several other files types on) and HD-DVD's (through an addon) are playable on the 360.. Doesn't really look like they're shunning optical media to me.
I don't think if present situations can dissuade Vicious from his viewpoint that PS3 will rule the roost and Wii and X360 will fall off the face of the Earth, there's anything anyone can say that can.
quote:
The Xbox game console is hot, but its division has lost $4 billion in four years and isn't yet in the black. The mobile-software division, also losing money, has just a sliver of the market for cell phone handsets. Microsoft Business Solutions, after acquiring Great Plains Software for $1.1 billion and Navision for $1.4 billion, is supposed to deliver $10 billion in sales by 2010. At its current 6% growth rate, MBS will attain that goal in 43 years.The Xbox game console is hot, but its division has lost $4 billion in four years and isn't yet in the black. The mobile-software division, also losing money, has just a sliver of the market for cell phone handsets. Microsoft Business Solutions, after acquiring Great Plains Software for $1.1 billion and Navision for $1.4 billion, is supposed to deliver $10 billion in sales by 2010. At its current 6% growth rate, MBS will attain that goal in 43 years. http://www.forbes.com/home/technolog...microsoft.html
So 4 billion up to 2005, 1.2 in 2006, 1.3 in 2007 and the year isn't even over yet!
Read the part where is the article says they put the losses on FY 2007 results and that ended last week (at the time of the article July 5, 2007) Meiz, if you're going to put forth a ridiculous DOOOOOOOOOOOM theory, at least get your facts straight.
So...over the past five years MS has lost ~$6 billion on the H+E division and that spells DOOOOOOM for the Xbox...but the fact that Sony (the UNDISPUTED champ of the console war the past 2 generations) has lost ONE THIRD THAT AMOUNT (~$2 Billion, for those who struggle with TEH MATHS) the past single YEAR on their games division is no problem at all? Puhhh-lease.
Mind you, this loss happened the same year they launched the PS3.
But the Xbox is DOOOOOOOOOMED?
This is the smartest post in this thread in of course Meiz completley ignores it.
First of all you dissected only part of my post for some reason.
Then you present the fact that microsoft is forecasting a profit in 2008 and that Sony is also losing money.
Sony losing money in comparisson is moot because they are not Microsoft. They're their own entity with their own problems. That wasn't the focus of the debate. Moot point.
What does predictions that have to do with the fact that currently their ventures are losing money, VPs are selling hefty amounts of stock, Moore is gone and everything else I've enumerated stating that business isn't terribly good? Writing in caps and abloo ablooing with shoddy arguments and taking a snipit of what I said putting it into context and placing a counter argument is straw maning.
They've also made predictions in the past regarding turning a profit:
*Sigh* Please tell me your really not this dense. There you go again with that imaginary straw man argument.
I don't know if it intentional or not, but you're completely missing the point of injecting Sony into this debate.
A: They are both competing for the same market share (along with Nintendo).
B: If MS is in trouble (WHICH IS YOUR GODDAMNED POINT) because of a $1 billion loss in FY 2007 (which when added to their previous losses =~$6 billion overall), then what does that say about Sony (who is in DIRECT competition with MS for market share) losing one-third of that amount in less than one-sixth of the time while having half the consoles in people's homes that MS does?
Does that mean that Sony is doomed? No. Sony is going to be around until the end of this gen and into next gen. As is MS. As is Nintendo. MS doesn't care about how much they have lost. Moreover, the bulk of their losses in the H+E division came last generation when they were trying to get a foothold in the market (the market where Sony was the established KING of console gaming 2x) and would spend ANY amount to gain market share. Now, they are on the precipice of turning a profit on the 360 this FY and they're just going to abandon it?
Why would MS just go and give up on the Xbox when any reasonable person would tell you that they, at the very least, have closed the gap between them and Sony (and arguably overtaken) this generation? Are you kidding me? How does it feel when the demons come and visit you at night?
Have a good one.
The fact that it was a strawman argument doesn't make it imaginary because you say so.
A: The only relevance would be the fact that they are competing sure. But how does mentioning the fact that sony is losing money refute the fact that microsoft is losing money? This is a fallacy in logic to the point I made about Microsoft being in dire straights. Therefore it is moot.
B: I never once brought sony into the discussion. They are a factor when it comes to being a competitor in the market but again doesn't dispute MS losing money. Moot.
The fact that Sony is still in business despite their loses is also a moot point considering they are two separate entities. The fact that a competitor is doing poorly in the market should boost revenue yet MS is still in the red. Again, not talking about Sony here Another moot point.
The reasons MS would want to divert their resources elsewhere:
-Other divisions are making money
-Funding said divisions would undoubtedly make more money.
-They've been losing billions for 6 years.
-Investors like investing money in successful business ventures and the series of unfortunate events might make them try to find a more lucrative place to invest.
quote:
The Xbox game console is hot, but its division has lost $4 billion in four years and isn't yet in the black. The mobile-software division, also losing money, has just a sliver of the market for cell phone handsets. Microsoft Business Solutions, after acquiring Great Plains Software for $1.1 billion and Navision for $1.4 billion, is supposed to deliver $10 billion in sales by 2010. At its current 6% growth rate, MBS will attain that goal in 43 years.The Xbox game console is hot, but its division has lost $4 billion in four years and isn't yet in the black. The mobile-software division, also losing money, has just a sliver of the market for cell phone handsets. Microsoft Business Solutions, after acquiring Great Plains Software for $1.1 billion and Navision for $1.4 billion, is supposed to deliver $10 billion in sales by 2010. At its current 6% growth rate, MBS will attain that goal in 43 years. http://www.forbes.com/home/technolog...microsoft.html
So 4 billion up to 2005, 1.2 in 2006, 1.3 in 2007 and the year isn't even over yet!
Read the part where is the article says they put the losses on FY 2007 results and that ended last week (at the time of the article July 5, 2007) Meiz, if you're going to put forth a ridiculous DOOOOOOOOOOOM theory, at least get your facts straight.
So...over the past five years MS has lost ~$6 billion on the H+E division and that spells DOOOOOOM for the Xbox...but the fact that Sony (the UNDISPUTED champ of the console war the past 2 generations) has lost ONE THIRD THAT AMOUNT (~$2 Billion, for those who struggle with TEH MATHS) the past single YEAR on their games division is no problem at all? Puhhh-lease.
Mind you, this loss happened the same year they launched the PS3.
But the Xbox is DOOOOOOOOOMED?
This is the smartest post in this thread in of course Meiz completley ignores it.
First of all you dissected only part of my post for some reason.
Then you present the fact that microsoft is forecasting a profit in 2008 and that Sony is also losing money.
Sony losing money in comparisson is moot because they are not Microsoft. They're their own entity with their own problems. That wasn't the focus of the debate. Moot point.
What does predictions that have to do with the fact that currently their ventures are losing money, VPs are selling hefty amounts of stock, Moore is gone and everything else I've enumerated stating that business isn't terribly good? Writing in caps and abloo ablooing with shoddy arguments and taking a snipit of what I said putting it into context and placing a counter argument is straw maning.
They've also made predictions in the past regarding turning a profit:
*Sigh* Please tell me your really not this dense. There you go again with that imaginary straw man argument.
I don't know if it intentional or not, but you're completely missing the point of injecting Sony into this debate.
A: They are both competing for the same market share (along with Nintendo).
B: If MS is in trouble (WHICH IS YOUR GODDAMNED POINT) because of a $1 billion loss in FY 2007 (which when added to their previous losses =~$6 billion overall), then what does that say about Sony (who is in DIRECT competition with MS for market share) losing one-third of that amount in less than one-sixth of the time while having half the consoles in people's homes that MS does?
Does that mean that Sony is doomed? No. Sony is going to be around until the end of this gen and into next gen. As is MS. As is Nintendo. MS doesn't care about how much they have lost. Moreover, the bulk of their losses in the H+E division came last generation when they were trying to get a foothold in the market (the market where Sony was the established KING of console gaming 2x) and would spend ANY amount to gain market share. Now, they are on the precipice of turning a profit on the 360 this FY and they're just going to abandon it?
Why would MS just go and give up on the Xbox when any reasonable person would tell you that they, at the very least, have closed the gap between them and Sony (and arguably overtaken) this generation? Are you kidding me? How does it feel when the demons come and visit you at night?
Have a good one.
The fact that it was a strawman argument doesn't make it imaginary because you say so.
A: The only relevance would be the fact that they are competing sure. But how does mentioning the fact that sony is losing money refute the fact that microsoft is losing money? This is a fallacy in logic to the point I made about Microsoft being in dire straights. Therefore it is moot.
B: I never once brought sony into the discussion. They are a factor when it comes to being a competitor in the market but again doesn't dispute MS losing money. Moot.
The fact that Sony is still in business despite their loses is also a moot point considering they are two separate entities. The fact that a competitor is doing poorly in the market should boost revenue yet MS is still in the red. Again, not talking about Sony here Another moot point.
The reasons MS would want to divert their resources elsewhere:
-Other divisions are making money
-Funding said divisions would undoubtedly make more money.
-They've been losing billions for 6 years.
-Investors like investing money in successful business ventures and the series of unfortunate events might make them try to find a more lucrative place to invest.
I'm positive at this point that Meiz is putting you guys on.
The fact that it was a strawman argument doesn't make it imaginary because you say so.
A: The only relevance would be the fact that they are competing sure. But how does mentioning the fact that sony is losing money refute the fact that microsoft is losing money? This is a fallacy in logic to the point I made about Microsoft being in dire straights. Therefore it is moot.
It goes to show that game companies lose money when launching new products. That is completely obvious. The Wii is an exception.
B: I never once brought sony into the discussion. They are a factor when it comes to being a competitor in the market but again doesn't dispute MS losing money. Moot.
See above.
The fact that Sony is still in business despite their loses is also a moot point considering they are two separate entities. The fact that a competitor is doing poorly in the market should boost revenue yet MS is still in the red. Again, not talking about Sony here Another moot point.
See above
The reasons MS would want to divert their resources elsewhere:
-Other divisions are making money
-Funding said divisions would undoubtedly make more money.
-They've been losing billions for 6 years.
-Investors like investing money in successful business ventures and the series of unfortunate events might make them try to find a more lucrative place to invest
Moot.
Again, if you really think that investors are going to give up on MS you're delusional. Totally delusional.
Posts
猿も木から落ちる
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Which would break the internets.
Where would we get our porn?
I misreprestnted your position? So you haven't been going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about the losses that MS has been suffering in their H+E division and how those losses predict doom for the Xbox?
Still, you haven't refuted a single thing I've said. You just keep hiding behind your ridiculous "STRAW MAN" defense. Still, I ask, are you 14?
Quick lesson in debate:
You can't bring up an issue and then claim "STRAW MANNNNNN" when someone makes an apt comparison (USING YOUR OWN MOTHER FUCKING LOGIC) illustrating how your arguments are nothing more than the unhinged, illogical ramblings of a mouth-breather.
"Fade to Black" WTF? You're only supposed to type something like that when you've actually made a point. Not after a ridiculous attempt to hide behind some sort of "deabte technicality."
LOL.
EDIT: I'm done arguing.
And...PAX?
MS looses 6 billion on Xbox in about 8 or so years. Sony looses 2 billion on playstation in a year.
Clearly Sony and MS are both doomed, and nintendo should buy them both. Then nintendo should buy PAX to show off that they have bought sony and microsoft. then, they need to buy a country, we'll say Australia, to host their operations in search of global dominance.
also, PAX?
I will eat my cock if Nintendo does not amass a great army of fans and invade Sony by 2012.
PAX?
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
you can't renege on a cock-eating promise
i don't know why you are so worried though it's only like bitesize OHHHH SICK BURN
Fucking lie. Known fact that the Xbox division turned a huge profit the quarter Halo 2 was released in 04.
And do you really, honestly believe that Microsoft can't stand to lose 5 billion dollars? Anybody want to give this guy a ballpark on MS' net worth?
an analogy isn't a misrepresentation. You've essentially presented a strawman in order to strengthen your position of claiming a strawman. How Ironic.
Example of a strawman:
"Evolution occurred. We have a shit-ton of evidence".
"So you're saying that we're just monkeys and that we should all start doing drugs and fucking young girls. Since we aren't monkeys and not all of us do drugs and fuck young girls, therefore evolution didn't occur."
Mind you, there's nothing wrong with doing drugs or fucking young girls.
My original point in response to people stating that MS will turn a profit and somehow magically eliminate all the debt they have accumulated.
The response:
First of all you dissected only part of my post for some reason.
Then you present the fact that microsoft is forecasting a profit in 2008 and that Sony is also losing money.
Sony losing money in comparisson is moot because they are not Microsoft. They're their own entity with their own problems. That wasn't the focus of the debate. Moot point.
What does predictions that have to do with the fact that currently their ventures are losing money, VPs are selling hefty amounts of stock, Moore is gone and everything else I've enumerated stating that business isn't terribly good? Writing in caps and abloo ablooing with shoddy arguments and taking a snipit of what I said putting it into context and placing a counter argument is straw maning.
They've also made predictions in the past regarding turning a profit:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051228-5862.html
Which did not come true.
Edit: Fade to black god dammit.
This industry isn't going anywhere but up. A market crash like the one on the heels of the 2600 is practically an impossibility at this point, because gaming has wormed itself into so many facets of society that people will always be able to make a buck off of it.
So I would just like to state that while I know there is absolutely no way to change your mind (except for 2009 coming to pass with Microsoft still going strong, at which point you will probably have forgotten this entire thing and be talking about how MS is doomed in 2010), I hope the fact that you are terribly, TERRIBLY outnumbered and outmanned on the issue, by many longtime and rational posters on the forum, sinks in at least a tiny bit.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
INVESTMENT
LOSS LEADER
FADE TO BLACK
Look, I will be on ventrilo in 30 minutes to an hour and I think I could better explain my stance on the argument with speech rather then text.
But to continue to fuel the fire here are a few other predictions I have come to think will happen.
-Nintendo Wii will be swept under the rug come mid 2008. No one will want one.
-Xbox 360 will announce big loses some time next year in 2008. (if they have not fell yet)
-PS3 will sell way over it's competitors mid to end of 2008 when the price goes lower for the PS2 guys to buy in.
I am not going to bother supporting my arguments with facts or links. It didn't seem to sink in the last time I did it. So lets just see if I turn out to be right about all this crap.
(By the way for the whole 'WHY IS SONY NOT DOOMED IF 360 CAN BE VICIOUS?!?")
The PS3 was built with multiple sources in mind for profit.
-PS1 games (as empty as it is)
-PS2 games (still a large market)
-PS3 games (Starting to build up)
-Blu-Ray movies (looking to be the dominate format for HD) {It's also cheaper then HD-DVD when I looked yesterday}
-Online distribution with bigger titles then what the 360 offers. (Big games that could be sold in a brick and mortar location that are being sold online instead)
Sony does not have as much money as Microsoft, I get that. But Sony has ties with companies in the media industry that Microsoft doesn't. Sony has a big film industry offering that support Blu-Ray and are aiming to make it the standard format for HD content. HD-DVD prices are starting to go higher then Blu-Ray lately (look at 300) and that is going to have a sharp impact on sales. If for any reason Sony fails to deliver with games on the PS3 then the use of the hardware as a Blu-Ray player can back it up. It still seems stupid to me that they put so much in a console when they could have reduced the price by removing the Blu-Ry drive, but it is going to help them in the long run. Sony has more to lose if the PS3 falls so they are going to make damn sure that it keeps up. I don't think Microsoft looks at the Xbox like Sony looks at the PS3.
Though that wont happen. Wii Fit, while in my opinion crap, will sell millions upon millions.
I did not know that.
Hey, I even found you a source, which you didn't even bother providing.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=6521
The window: 3 months
The amount 84 million
So, how does a profit that's turned 3 years ago reverse the fact that they're still losing money? They can turn a profit only to fall into another billion dollar lull?
If Vicious's predictions are on the money, I will eat my cock. Swear to Christ, I will turn on my webcam and start showing down on what was once my manhood.
Please don't >_<
I'm about 98 percent sure I won't have to.
But it dosen't change thier upward trend, and from here on out they are set to make increasing profits every year.
Don't worry, it's Karf. He's used to cocks in his mouth on a daily basis.
From what I am reading in that article, it states they didn't break even. You can make a profit on software but when that profit is overshadowed by a big deficit then it's kinda moot. I could be reading it wrong though.
*Sigh* Please tell me your really not this dense. There you go again with that imaginary straw man argument.
I don't know if it intentional or not, but you're completely missing the point of injecting Sony into this debate.
A: They are both competing for the same market share (along with Nintendo).
B: If MS is in trouble (WHICH IS YOUR GODDAMNED POINT) because of a $1 billion loss in FY 2007 (which when added to their previous losses =~$6 billion overall), then what does that say about Sony (who is in DIRECT competition with MS for market share) losing one-third of that amount in less than one-sixth of the time while having half the consoles in people's homes that MS does?
Does that mean that Sony is doomed? No. Sony is going to be around until the end of this gen and into next gen. As is MS. As is Nintendo. MS doesn't care about how much they have lost. Moreover, the bulk of their losses in the H+E division came last generation when they were trying to get a foothold in the market (the market where Sony was the established KING of console gaming 2x) and would spend ANY amount to gain market share. Now, they are on the precipice of turning a profit on the 360 this FY and they're just going to abandon it?
Why would MS just go and give up on the Xbox when any reasonable person would tell you that they, at the very least, have closed the gap between them and Sony (and arguably overtaken) this generation? Are you kidding me? How does it feel when the demons come and visit you at night?
Have a good one.
Research and Development. Same reason Sony's game division is in the hole right now, even with the strong sales of PS2 products.
It is an investment. You have to spend money to make money, and all that.
I question the validity of this statement however it's a moot point. I already enumerated the fact that the hardware failures was one of the elements that lead me to believe MS is pulling out of the race.
Like I said, September and everything after will be the turning point when Halo 3 comes out but if they're still stagnating, I fear the worst. And who's to say they can keep that trend going anyways?
I am sorry but you obviously didn't read what I wrote. Brick and mortar (as learned business folk should know) refers to physical store sales. The PSN network offers games that can be sold in a brick and mortar establishment but instead offer them online or offer both. The online distribution that Sony is offering has full featured games that 360 does not. However 360 does offer a great deal of smaller titles that combined form a big selection for the consumer that currently the PSN network does not offer yet. The 360 Arcade however does not offer games like Warhawk and the likes.
Also, I think Sony looks at the PS3 has a total media center while Microsoft just looks at it as an expansion of there brand to the television audience. Microsoft shows very clear signs of staying away from optical media in general.
They've been spending billions over 6 years though. I mean I could understand the whole R&D side of the argument if they were actually doing R&D.
They had a head start at the market, kept losing money yet are still losing money.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
That is why you can stream things from PC, watch videos, listen to music, etc? What other kind of media is there?
Augh
They have one of the best holiday line-ups in video game history, and a price drop is likely coming soon... Your doom and gloom predictions (still) make absolutely no sense. You clearly do not understand that (as has been said MANY times), the most successful consoles have always taken an early loss to reap rewards later. Most people call this an investment.
Great, that is staying away from optical media is it not?
Again, aside from the Wii, no consoles do anything besides lose money the first year. If they lose another billion dollars between now and this time next year, then you will have an argument, not now.
...But DVD's (Which you can also put .wmv and several other files types on) and HD-DVD's (through an addon) are playable on the 360.. Doesn't really look like they're shunning optical media to me.
The fact that it was a strawman argument doesn't make it imaginary because you say so.
A: The only relevance would be the fact that they are competing sure. But how does mentioning the fact that sony is losing money refute the fact that microsoft is losing money? This is a fallacy in logic to the point I made about Microsoft being in dire straights. Therefore it is moot.
B: I never once brought sony into the discussion. They are a factor when it comes to being a competitor in the market but again doesn't dispute MS losing money. Moot.
The fact that Sony is still in business despite their loses is also a moot point considering they are two separate entities. The fact that a competitor is doing poorly in the market should boost revenue yet MS is still in the red. Again, not talking about Sony here Another moot point.
The reasons MS would want to divert their resources elsewhere:
-Other divisions are making money
-Funding said divisions would undoubtedly make more money.
-They've been losing billions for 6 years.
-Investors like investing money in successful business ventures and the series of unfortunate events might make them try to find a more lucrative place to invest.
I'm positive at this point that Meiz is putting you guys on.
It goes to show that game companies lose money when launching new products. That is completely obvious. The Wii is an exception. See above. See above
Again, if you really think that investors are going to give up on MS you're delusional. Totally delusional.
Moot strawman fade to black.