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Dealing with an abrasive work colleague
GrimReaper
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Ok, so i've been working at my current place for roughly 3-4 years now. I'm the only computer guy there, my actual job title is IT Manager. I often enjoy my job as sometimes I get some really interesting challenges.
Now, as the computer guy I do all the technical support stuff for people.. sometimes that translates into the people venting their anger with a computer or software on you. This is something I accept, it comes part and parcel of the job.
However, since day 1 there has been a woman there who has been a non-stop pain in the arse. She's constantly trying to humiliate me in-front of work colleagues (she has directly questioned my sexuality twice in-front of others in the office) and hurls verbal abuse my way on a daily basis.
Sometimes I will reply in kind to her verbal abuse, which is something I hate doing. It's not the kind of person I want to be, and frankly I am disappointed with myself when I go to her level.. there is a saying that you shouldn't argue with idiots as they'll drag you down to their level and win by experience. I don't know who said that but i've tried to live by it.
I'm 28 she's in her 40's, she's been at the company much longer than I have and is quite chummy with the company owners. Now, I know a lot of the stuff i've done at the company has impressed the bosses and they know in a lot of ways they need me for some specific stuff. (for example I built up a 3.4TB Linux fileserver running netatalk for Appletalk fileserving by hand, I doubt there's a lot of people in the local area who'd know their way around that)
However, I suspect that if it came to a choice between me and her the bosses would probably choose her every time as they make money with her whilst all I do is essentially support with occasional stuff that makes money. (website e-commerce stuff)
At the moment i'm kind of wondering what to do, as far as I see it I have a few choices.
* Leave the job and find somewhere else to work, however with the exception of her I do enjoy my job.
* Try and talk to her sensibly in private, I doubt this would work she's the "mouthy" argumentative kind of person.. this probably wouldn't end well
* Formally complain in a verbal manner or written manner to my boss about her
* Consider seeing a solicitor for advice about work place bullying etc especially for the questioning sexuality bullshit.
This is a fairly small company, roughly 40 people employed. It isn't some big corporation or anything like that, it's a family owned business.
Anyone got any advice?
Now, as the computer guy I do all the technical support stuff for people.. sometimes that translates into the people venting their anger with a computer or software on you. This is something I accept, it comes part and parcel of the job.
However, since day 1 there has been a woman there who has been a non-stop pain in the arse. She's constantly trying to humiliate me in-front of work colleagues (she has directly questioned my sexuality twice in-front of others in the office) and hurls verbal abuse my way on a daily basis.
Sometimes I will reply in kind to her verbal abuse, which is something I hate doing. It's not the kind of person I want to be, and frankly I am disappointed with myself when I go to her level.. there is a saying that you shouldn't argue with idiots as they'll drag you down to their level and win by experience. I don't know who said that but i've tried to live by it.
I'm 28 she's in her 40's, she's been at the company much longer than I have and is quite chummy with the company owners. Now, I know a lot of the stuff i've done at the company has impressed the bosses and they know in a lot of ways they need me for some specific stuff. (for example I built up a 3.4TB Linux fileserver running netatalk for Appletalk fileserving by hand, I doubt there's a lot of people in the local area who'd know their way around that)
However, I suspect that if it came to a choice between me and her the bosses would probably choose her every time as they make money with her whilst all I do is essentially support with occasional stuff that makes money. (website e-commerce stuff)
At the moment i'm kind of wondering what to do, as far as I see it I have a few choices.
* Leave the job and find somewhere else to work, however with the exception of her I do enjoy my job.
* Try and talk to her sensibly in private, I doubt this would work she's the "mouthy" argumentative kind of person.. this probably wouldn't end well
* Formally complain in a verbal manner or written manner to my boss about her
* Consider seeing a solicitor for advice about work place bullying etc especially for the questioning sexuality bullshit.
This is a fairly small company, roughly 40 people employed. It isn't some big corporation or anything like that, it's a family owned business.
Anyone got any advice?
GrimReaper on
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I feel this should be your first option. Talk with your boss, adhere to the chain of command. Make it clear that you expect action from this, not for it to make it's way amongst senior management to be swept under the rug. Do not issue ultimatiums ("Either she goes, or I do."), but make it clear that you will not tolerate her behavior any longer.
* Consider seeing a solicitor for advice about work place bullying etc especially for the questioning sexuality bullshit.
This is your option of last recourse I would wager. If your company is unwilling to curb her behavior, then you may have a case. I'm a yank, so i'm unsure of the U.K's laws concerning harassament, so take this with a grain of salt.
I do want to add one important piece of advice: Document everything. Should it actually come to court or senior management, you want loads and loads of evidence. Every e-mail, every comment, everything. The last thing you want to see is an arguement of "He said/She said." If you can land a mountain of papers explicility detailing her actions, then she doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.
I have my oldish 20GB mp3 player which can record audio, if I have the abrasive behaviour recorded surely that's quite convincing? But is that legal to leave it on my desk recording? (it's quite inconspicuous in that it just looks like a normal mp3 player)
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I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
it's professional to not be confrontational in a hostile manner, best her on professionalism. if she's saying "are you f-ing gay?" or somesuch thing it reflects poorly on her, but not rising to the bait speaks well of you. if it really bothers you then you should submit a politely worded complaint to HR (or YOUR direct superior) quoting her exactly, saying who witnessed the event and remarking that you expect to be employed in a professional atmosphere and you feel that she is contributing to a "hostile work environment". do not threaten, just establish a paper trail (keep copies).
that all said, you're kinda screwed. i do IT also, and i've similarly been abused (my opinion) by someone who's tight with the CEO and brings in money. i take this user as an opportunity to better myself and my own professionalism. that which doesn't kill you right? the user is an offsite user, if he'd been onsite, I'd probably have quit as when I complained to boss he said essentially "just deal with him, i know you can handle him."
Documenting it actually does work pretty well. Get a little calendar just for her and write down the shit she says to you on the day she says it. When I did my management training this was suggested for dealing with problem subordinates... and I would betcha it works with co-workers just as well.
What she is doing is harrassment... and some of her comments are actually sexual harrassment. She is creating a hostile workplace for you. Complaining about this stuff rarely results in someone getting fired because wrongful termination lawsuits are really a bitch and it's easier to deal with them via mediation.
Even a small company probably has some sort of process for dealing with harrassment... its something that has the potential to have consequences for their productivity, and nobody wants to get discrimination charges levelled against their company because of the boorishness of one of their employees.
Bear in mind that the first thing they are likely to ask you is if you've asked her to stop. Have you?
With the tennents of professionalism being what they are, you shouldn't have to ask her. And really, you shouldn't. You don't need to interact with her on some personal level for her to cease and desist with her behavior. She's an adult, and whether she acts like it or not, a professional. She's crossed the boundry of acceptable behavior, and it's probably best to let her bosses ask her to cease her behavior.
Keep everything above board, and document your ass off. I'm quite serious here, write everything down, date it. The point is to create overwhelming evidence if you take it to a solicitor, or your bosses. I'm not sure of the legality of recordings in your country, so I can't say for sure.
Having been in the professional workforce for a good while now, adhere to the chain of command: Talk to your boss, and he'll talk to his boss, etc., Make it understood you expect it to stop. And if it doesn't, document, document, document. Remeber: Non scriptorum, non est.
Yes, it is he said, she said, but it's far from pointless. Sure, you could have made it up, but odds are that a detailed file of comments with dates isn't fabricated. There are many situations from criminal harassment to noise complaints where documenting is probably the most important thing a victim can do.
Also, the fact that the documentation exists gives a strong indication that you could be planning some sort of legal or workplace standards action without actually saying it. At the very least they'll be thinking the potential exists if the issue isn't deal with in a reasonable manner.
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
Not really.... I mean, if you say "she said abrasive things" and she says "no I didn't", or "it wasn't as bad as he says" or "what I really meant was <explanation"..... that's different than if you say "Here is a recording of what she said". It's not he said, she said... it's recording of her saying it, she said. She can say "That is taken out of context", but if you have a recording of the context... it's not really. She can say "I meant it as a joke, obviously", then it's still abrasive comments, unless it's clear that not only are the jokes, but they couldn't be hurtful at all. But from the sound of it, you're not overreacting, she just lost where the line is and doesn't understand the concept of decency.
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I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
If she’s in a position of seniority, even indirectly, he has a pretty good excuse for not doing so.
Before bringing a lawsuit though, you will probably need to exhaust the employer-provided channels for conflict resolution first, otherwise I don't think you're going to have much success.
Whether or not he has an excuse, settling it between each other is almost always the first option. I have four people who work for me and they get into it on occasion... but I'll be damned if I'm going to be a babysitter for grown people. That ain't in my job description.
A simple "could you please not talk to me like that?" is enough. If you've already done this, you've talked to her about it and can answer the question affirmatively.
If she just insults you again, roll with it like you usually do when she's being nasty and make note of the response. You're just building your case for her harrassment. If she's incredulous and gossips around the office about it... she's just making them witnesses to your case, because even more of them have heard her being a toxic person.
Or, she might surprise you and start being less of a bitch to you once you point out that you don't like her way of "kidding around" (this might be all she thinks she is doing). It may sound unlikely but you never know.
I think some more background would help. I firmly believe in manipulating, as Jeeves would say, "the psychology of the individual." I believe official action, whether filing a complaint or seeking legal action, should be your last resort. Is she this hostile towards everyone, or does she single you out? If you're being specifically targeted, what could have caused her to do so? Is she always abusive whenever she sees you, or does she only like to put on shows for your co-workers? What form do her insults take, personal (you are a stupid fag) or work-based (you broke my computer you incompetent idiot)? How do your co-workers react? When it comes down to it, how do your co-workers feel about you?
Not knowing any specifics, I think that it is possible that she is abusing you in front of your co-workers to try to establish a superior social status. Possibly she used to be a generally disliked person, but, now that you're here, she sees a chance to raise her standing by turning you into the low-man on the popularity totem. Any person that would be so abusive towards another without some obvious precipitating factor obviously has emotional and/or social issues, which is why I think this is the most likely scenario.
What I would probably do is:
1) Never let her get a rise out of you; never bite back. Keep your cool and your professionalism, if only to show your co-workers that you are better than her. Next time she starts heaping diatribe on you in front of an audience, tell her that you do not appreciate her attitude towards you, and that, if you have ever given her any offense, you would be more than happy to make restitution. With the British gift for understatement and dryness, you should be able to pull that off admirably
2) Make friends with your co-workers. People are generally more prone to ignoring office drama, but if you were able to become good friends with many of your office-mates, there's a chance that they will tell her to knock it off if she starts badmouthing you to them. Also, if it ever came down to legal action, they'd be more willing to support your case.
3) I probably wouldn't try to approach her, but if she ever seeks you out in private and starts bitching at you again, try to see if you can get her to reveal the reason behind her hostility. If there isn't a reason (as I suspect there isn't), all you can do is outmaneuver her socially so that she eventually realizes that abusing you isn't going to get her anywhere with your co-workers.
And if you don't have enough confidence that people will treat a legitimate harrassment claim with due diligence, then your work environment is shit and you need to find a new job anyway.
And that's the only warning for it here because it is getting out of hand.
Documenting everything means writing down every single time it happens, and what is said, and who is present. It doesn't matter if she says "well he's lying" because you would have to be completely fucking insane to create such a detailed record of multiple events across a significant time period, and it can be plainly observed that no, you are not frothing at the mouth.
Having this is important, because if management decides to ignore it in favor of her saying "nuh uh", it can be a vital tool in the event of a wrongful dismissal, or if you should feel forced to leave the company, as at least in Canada, if you can prove that you had no option but to leave a job due to discrimination/etc, you qualify for federal unemployment insurance.
EDIT:
Also, do not record her, do not talk to others about it, do not make it a big deal. Handle it privately and professionally and with integrity. Any other course of action greatly increases the odds that it will come back to haunt you.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
Stop. Stop that now, especially if other people are around. All it takes is for her to go to the boss and saw "he said ______ about me" and it's officially your ass that gets fired.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
I actually missed that. Yeah, every time you do that back to her it encourages more of it from her and that's because she knows that all you have to do is really lip off in front of a third party and she can have you fired. Wouldn't that be the icing on the cake?
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
For what it's worth, I worked with a guy who had to do this about his boss (who was also my boss at the time). It basically came down to a senior manager sitting down in a meeting with both of them, keeping minutes, and saying "This stops. Now." and having them both sign a document to indicate they'd attended the meeting and understood the terms.
It worked out OK in the long run.
She's the kind of person who is highly argumentative, I did at first consider having a private chat with her.. then I thought of all the times i've talked to her. She's quite opinionated and something of a bigot and racist. (generally light end of the spectrum racism, for example comments in conversation about the Polish, Muslims etc)
I've now decided to try and get out of there as fast as I possibly can, I am now looking at a BSc in computer forensics which is right up my alley in terms of interest. I'm going to see if I can get through the course in a faster period than 3 years (no way in hell do I want to be at my current place for 3 years) and find a respectable job employed by the government.
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I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
This policy -- which I have seen in place at other companies I've worked at, including a real estate office and a retail outlet -- is what I was referring to in my original post. I wasn't giving legal advice (i.e., I wasn't talking about filing a lawsuit), and I wasn't talking about doing anything dishonest or sneaky. I was simply stating an established policy that would apply to the OP's situation.
If you still have a problem with me posting this advice, it's certainly your perogative to infract me or whatever, but I've at least backed up my comments with a legitimate source. The odd thing is, in the end, the advice you gave is more or less the same as the advice I gave. I admit that I'm confused as to what you didn't like about my advice, but I apologize if my original post wasn't clear about what I was advising.
It's a small company, I have no records of it being said and frankly because i'm the computer guy they're more likely to defend her in a court of law and perjure themselves.
One of the company owners i'm on friendly terms with, I suspect he might be honest and up front about it as he directly witnessed one such occasion and essentially said to her "you can't say that", however.. that's all he really said.
Again, as I said because i'm the computer guy everybody takes their anger of computer stuff out on me and hence they're not likely to view me favourably in such a situation I think.
Even if I were successful and got her sacked, what then? Everybody would keep their distance and it'd become unbearable for me to work there. I'd probably be even more of the social outcast than I currently am.
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I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
And whuppins for fuck's sakes try to realize that not every single line of every single post is directed at you, and also that what your current employer considers adequate may or may not apply to this situation, and that in a situation where one can expect to be doubted by management, that recording more information is a better idea than recording less.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH
But somebody mentioned you should ask her to stop, and that would officially be step one. In anything borderline, you have to let the offender know that the behaivior is unwelcome. That's not unprofessional, that is extremely professional. Firstly, anyone you complain to in a position to do anything is going to ask what you've done about it. Secondly, if you haven't, they will give you the opportunity to resolve it on your own terms. Only after this option is exhausted (or you're incapable of doing so) will they bother to mandate compliance. So get 'er done.
It doesn't have to be "stop being such a _____ , I don't like it." Something like, 'hey, I'm sure you don't mean to be insulting, but when you did x, I found that pretty x. I'm just not used to that sort of thing." etc.
This is issue de-escalation not escalation, which is the process described here by so many. The point of this game is to get it resolved at the lowest level of authority possible. Peer authority is the best deal if you can get it. Don't try to accuse or paint her into a corner - she'll just get her back up and start defending herself. That puts you in vs. mode, which is something you want to avoid.
Be plain, state facts. Things like, "Hey, what's up with you making fun of me all the time? Do you do that to everyone or is it just me?" "Wow, that was pretty uncalled for. Thanks for that." are just going to aggravate the issue more.
I'm not going to go to far into scripting, everyone's a bit different. Some approaches that would work on others will piss some people off even more. Either way, try to find a simple, non-accusatroy approach to bringing up the subject. Even the act of asking for a moment of time can have a huge effect:
"Hey, can I talk to you for a second?"
"*eye roll* "What's up?"
"Well, I'm just getting the feeling that you don't feel comfortable with me around. Is there anything you wanted to talk to me about?"
"No, no problems, we're cool."
"Really? You seemed angry with me the other day, just wondering what might be up with that."
"No, nothing really. It's fine. Seriously."
"Alright then. See you (nextime) have good weekend. *smile*"
See what I did there? No accusations, just a simple attempt to understand. At least on the surface. What you've really said here is:
1. There is some kind of problem here I wish to resolve.
2. I gave you a chance to tell me what that problem is.
3. You said with your very own mouth that there is no problem.
If she has half a brain, this kind of conversation means maybe she should watch her step because it's pissing you off - maybe it's unintentional. Maybe she really just doesn't like you. Either way, by being the bigger person, you've put the ball into her court, and she'll either run with it (you might get an earful) or she'll drop it and realize maybe she's being a bitch.
If she doesn't get that's she's being bitchy, the very next time she's being bitchy, you don't even need to come up with a smartass reply. All you need to say is "Hey, I thought we talked about this." and giver the ol' WTF expression. And she'll either remember or not, in which case the bitchometer might finally trigger, or you'll get a chance to open up right there and point to an immediate example of negative behaivior, and ask why this keeps happening.
Still not resolved? You've done your homework, attempted two resolutions, spoken about it it directly with her, and now have a case that you are trying to make the workplace a nice place to work, while she has areas of improvement that you have no control over. Don't complain to your/her boss, ask for advice on how to make it better, then do your best to follow that advice. Again, shoot for the lowest authority rung you can, and if that fails out after doing what they asked, re-address the issue at that same level until they (the superior) thinks of/recommends the next level.
This is just properly following the chain of command, so that each step is supported by the direct superior. Don't step on any toes you don't have to. The reality of the situation is, somewhere this will hit the internal friends network, and whomever will slip a birdie into her ear that you are getting really frustrated with the way she treats you and will be asked quietly and discretely to stop by someone she knows. No muss, no fuss, and hopefully no hard feelings.
While I didn't want to generalize too much about people I've never met, this is what I figured.
Talking to her directly about this and trying to approach it in a reasonable or mature manner is NOT going to work. Unless all you're trying to accomplish is to be able to tell your supervisor that you did ask her to stop when you file a formal complaint. And, as you've said, even if official action were taken against her, it wouldn't make your social life any easier because your office-mates are more likely to view you as a tattle-tale and trouble-maker than the victim.
Whatever reasons she has for doing this, they are not rational and so cannot be addressed by reason or any mature dialogue. I think the most likely scenario is she's either over-heard your co-workers getting pissed at you while you try to work with their computers, or someone's spoken ill of you to her/in her hearing. Thus, she figures she can kick you around to try to look cool in the eyes of her peers, and thus gain social acceptance. This is a high-school level power play. It won't be solved until you make it clear to her that this kind of behavior isn't going to get her what she wants. And the only way to make sure of that is to make lots of friends with your other officemates who aren't being total cunts.
Course of action:
1. Documenting everything on paper re: conversations & occurances of abuse is a good idea. DO NOT RECORD unless you want a potential countersuit.
2. Stop any inappropriate responses from yourself right now as mentioned.
3. Send recorded delivery letter to woman (at work) outlining problems. Say you are offended etc, and ask her to stop. Say that you Keep copy.
4. Send recorded delivery letter to bosses outlining problems, mention your letter to woman, say that you hope the matter will amicably end there between you and woman, but that you wanted to make them aware of the situation. It would probably be smart to include what you said here re: you accept that your job inevitably attracts a certain level of indirect fire from irate coworkers, and that you are not disturbed/offended/depressed/bullied by this, but the woman is different in attacking you personally so you felt it was necessary to bring up. Keep copy.
The legal issue you are going for here is tacit acceptance: namely "the failure of one party to respond to a letter addressed to it by the other is considered as evidence of its agreement to the terms". I don't know if this is actually enshrined in workplace law, but it is a general principle of many aspects of UK law, and if there is no precedent specifically excluding it from workplace law, there is a good chance you will be able to use it in any potential case.
I doubt you will get any letter back from the woman except to apologise or offer olive branch. If a) problem sorted, she has admitted guilt, if b) case strengthened, she has accepted there is a problem. If you don't get a letter back, you can argue later in a case that this constitutes tacit acceptance of what you wrote. It is very important that you word the letter in such a way that you conclude so: I assume you weren't doing this intentionally, and now that I've brought it to your attention, I assume it will not happen anymore and we can have a good working relationship.
Your boss will probably respond in several ways. One, they likely will have your manager just try and talk/charm it away with you. This is fine, so long as if he makes any agreement / promise to you in this to stop the harassment, then he gives it to you in writing. Be very firm about this, essentially say: if you make a verbal promise to me, there is surely no problem giving it in writing, and that will be the end of the matter. Two, if they are smart, they will have someone talk to her and get her to shut the fuck up. Three, they may respond to your letter in writing (but will possibly avoid doing so on the grounds that this admits a problem). Again, if they do not respond, you have a record that you have made a complaint, and you can argue tacit acceptance again.
Do not bring up any legal action, documentation, or tell them that you are documenting events at this point. If they have half a brain or half a lawyer, the fact that you have sent these letters in such a way will clue them up that you are serious and look like you know what you are doing.
If it continues or the company starts causing you problems with your complaint, then get representation and talk to them officially. The Citizen's Advice Bureau (google it) is a good first port of call, and gives free advice. The next step is likely to have a meeting with your company with some kind of representation, and present evidence / documentation etc, but by this point you should have personal legal advice to guide you. Most cases will stop right there, once they realise there is a real chance of being taken to court. If you don't have enough of a case, your legal advice will tell you this, and similarly the case will stop there unless you fancy fighting to lose.
Basic principles:
A) Document everything, keep copies of any correspondance, register any correspondance (Special Delivery post will do), get any verbal agreements in writing too.
C) Be calm, reasonable & most importantly eager to avoid jumping to legal action when talking to your company, as this will make them more responsive to your concerns. At the same time, make it perfectly clear that you are not bluffing and will take action if your concerns are not met - getting promises in writing and recording letters etc should go a long way to making them realise this.
Have fun!
"3. Send recorded delivery letter to woman (at work) outlining problems. Say you are offended etc, and ask her to stop. Say that you realise it was probably unintentional, and assume it will stop now that you have made her aware of the situation. Keep copy."
I'm sorry, but this is poor advice. Many people are extremely tactless - my boss is one - and insult others without understanding what they're doing. Others are just shits, but can change when confronted with this. Assuming that they are crazy, and incapable of changing is a massive leap.
I recently had a problem with my boss just generally being rude about a few things I'm sensitive about. I'm happy with just about any level of office banter, but this was really annoying me and he wouldn't take numerous hints (I've never met anyone as dumb as that before). From my point of view, he was unbelievably dumb and rude, but when I eventually got so angry that I took him into a side room and told him how much he was annoying me, he apologised and stopped.
You have to give this woman a chance to change her ways before going to authority. If you don't, any use of law or management will be resented.
Talk to her about it. Don't be afraid to admit vulnerability (if it's hurt your feelings, or made you want to quit, tell her - this is really important and something that many are too weak to admit).
If that doesn't work talk to your manager about it. Don't be confrontational - managers/owners don't like it as it takes power away from them, so if someone goes 'It's me or them' they usually say 'off you go'. Present it as something creating a problem, something that makes it harder for you to do your work.
If that doesn't work start documenting it. Then use the documented problem to show just how big a deal this is to your manager/the owner.
Only then should you use the law. Once you use the law, your place of work will become much less fun.
I agree that there are people like that, but it sounds, from the OP, as if this woman's behavior goes way beyond tactlessness or rudeness, and more like outright abuse. I think that people that show this much venom without provocation are most likely crazy.
I'll go to CAB asap.
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I've got a spare copy of Portal, if anyone wants it message me.
This is great advice. More people should think this way, and it sometimes shocks me how many don't.