I didn't know that suits were only worn by certain social classes. I have seen members of EVERY social class wearing suits.
Really, thats the whole thing about suits. They set a standard. Folks are all thesame when they are all wearing suits.
Calm down, you misunderstand me. There's nothing classist about suits. Requiring them for a job just highlights that there are people out there who expect a certain visual image that isn't always necessary. And yes, it highlights class differences.
I think we're bogging down this thread anyway, so I'm going to drop it. Someone else can have the last word if they want.
explain the class differences thing, please.
If everyone looks the same, how can you highlight class differences.
And what do you mean by callingsuits unneccesary? To you, personally, seeing your lawyer or whoever in jeans and a t-shirt may not matter, but to a lot of folks, seeing some one in a suit informs them that this indivdual is taking whatever they are doing seriously. First impressions matter, and clothes are a big part of them.
really, It's like in most office enviroments instead of your Mcdonalds uniform, your wearing a suit.
bastards with shaving! I have to shave almost every 2-3rd day, if I don't I look like a scruffy cave man, who can't even grow a proper beard becuase it comes in patchy in places.
I wonder if there are just fewer male options for looking professional without wearing a suit. Or maybe it's riskier from a fashion standpoint.
Kilts need to make a comeback. I'd wear one.
To be honest, I think that a lot of what is considered "acceptable" for women to wear inthe workplace these day doesn't look at ALL professional.
Relative to men's dress code, I'd agree. Many women can get away with wearing a t-shirt to work if it doesn't look like it came in a Hanes four pack.
Not even that, but short skirts, and tops with low cut necklines, and open toed shoes, etc.
Work is not a place for cleavage, or to show off your pretty toe-nail polish. Just like men shouldn't be showing up to work in muscle shirts, or shorts, or anything.
blah, weaing a suit to several interviews didnt help me at all.. i'm not bad at interviewing, they just keep finding other people with 6-8 years of experience.
If everyone looks the same, how can you highlight class differences.
And what do you mean by callingsuits unneccesary? To you, personally, seeing your lawyer or whoever in jeans and a t-shirt may not matter, but to a lot of folks, seeing some one in a suit informs them that this indivdual is taking whatever they are doing seriously. First impressions matter, and clothes are a big part of them.
Seriously, last post on this: I didn't say they were unnecessary, I said they aren't always necessary. There is no reason for a person in my position (reviewing grants) should have to wear a suit or a tie. Braket, in this case, is wrong. Lawyer? Yeah, if he wants to appear professional to people who assume he's taking them seriously because he wears a suit, then yeah, he might want to wear a suit for his livelihood.
And... nah, I'm not getting into the class argument. That's too much effort. Seriously, last post on clothing in the workplace.
If everyone looks the same, how can you highlight class differences.
And what do you mean by callingsuits unneccesary? To you, personally, seeing your lawyer or whoever in jeans and a t-shirt may not matter, but to a lot of folks, seeing some one in a suit informs them that this indivdual is taking whatever they are doing seriously. First impressions matter, and clothes are a big part of them.
Seriously, last post on this: I didn't say they were unnecessary, I said they aren't always necessary. There is no reason for a person in my position (reviewing grants) should have to wear a suit or a tie. Braket, in this case, is wrong. Lawyer? Yeah, if he wants to appear professional to people who assume he's taking them seriously because he wears a suit, then yeah, he might want to wear a suit for his livelihood.
And... nah, I'm not getting into the class argument. That's too much effort. Seriously, last post on clothing in the workplace.
I'm not expecting you to stick around and defend your class statement if you don't want to
I just want you to explain it, because you keep insisting on it.
Evander on
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SerpentSometimes Vancouver, BC, sometimes Brisbane, QLDRegistered Userregular
I wonder if there are just fewer male options for looking professional without wearing a suit. Or maybe it's riskier from a fashion standpoint.
Kilts need to make a comeback. I'd wear one.
To be honest, I think that a lot of what is considered "acceptable" for women to wear inthe workplace these day doesn't look at ALL professional.
Relative to men's dress code, I'd agree. Many women can get away with wearing a t-shirt to work if it doesn't look like it came in a Hanes four pack.
Not even that, but short skirts, and tops with low cut necklines, and open toed shoes, etc.
Work is not a place for cleavage, or to show off your pretty toe-nail polish. Just like men shouldn't be showing up to work in muscle shirts, or shorts, or anything.
this type of stuff still does not fly in a professional environment.
I wonder if there are just fewer male options for looking professional without wearing a suit. Or maybe it's riskier from a fashion standpoint.
Kilts need to make a comeback. I'd wear one.
To be honest, I think that a lot of what is considered "acceptable" for women to wear inthe workplace these day doesn't look at ALL professional.
Relative to men's dress code, I'd agree. Many women can get away with wearing a t-shirt to work if it doesn't look like it came in a Hanes four pack.
Not even that, but short skirts, and tops with low cut necklines, and open toed shoes, etc.
Work is not a place for cleavage, or to show off your pretty toe-nail polish. Just like men shouldn't be showing up to work in muscle shirts, or shorts, or anything.
this type of stuff still does not fly in a professional environment.
Oh, how I wish you were right.
Sadly, cleavage has become all pervasive in american culture. I am a big fan of the female busom, but there is a time and a place for everything.
The other day, at the store, a customer came in who was wearing a shirt cut so low that you could see basically all the way down to just above her areolas, and she was rather well endowed in the chest area, too. No, she wasn't at work at the time, but this is NOT a clothing choice that should be acceptable in public at all.
But if you want proof of what I am saying, look no further than Hillary Clinton, who has, at times, decided to show off her cleavage in the middle of her campaign for presidency. That is just plain wrong.
I wonder if there are just fewer male options for looking professional without wearing a suit. Or maybe it's riskier from a fashion standpoint.
Kilts need to make a comeback. I'd wear one.
To be honest, I think that a lot of what is considered "acceptable" for women to wear inthe workplace these day doesn't look at ALL professional.
Relative to men's dress code, I'd agree. Many women can get away with wearing a t-shirt to work if it doesn't look like it came in a Hanes four pack.
Not even that, but short skirts, and tops with low cut necklines, and open toed shoes, etc.
Work is not a place for cleavage, or to show off your pretty toe-nail polish. Just like men shouldn't be showing up to work in muscle shirts, or shorts, or anything.
this type of stuff still does not fly in a professional environment.
Oh, how I wish you were right.
Sadly, cleavage has become all pervasive in american culture. I am a big fan of the female busom, but there is a time and a place for everything.
The other day, at the store, a customer came in who was wearing a shirt cut so low that you could see basically all the way down to just above her areolas, and she was rather well endowed in the chest area, too. No, she wasn't at work at the time, but this is NOT a clothing choice that should be acceptable in public at all.
But if you want proof of what I am saying, look no further than Hillary Clinton, who has, at times, decided to show off her cleavage in the middle of her campaign for presidency. That is just plain wrong.
I wonder if there are just fewer male options for looking professional without wearing a suit. Or maybe it's riskier from a fashion standpoint.
Kilts need to make a comeback. I'd wear one.
To be honest, I think that a lot of what is considered "acceptable" for women to wear inthe workplace these day doesn't look at ALL professional.
Relative to men's dress code, I'd agree. Many women can get away with wearing a t-shirt to work if it doesn't look like it came in a Hanes four pack.
Not even that, but short skirts, and tops with low cut necklines, and open toed shoes, etc.
Work is not a place for cleavage, or to show off your pretty toe-nail polish. Just like men shouldn't be showing up to work in muscle shirts, or shorts, or anything.
this type of stuff still does not fly in a professional environment.
Oh, how I wish you were right.
Sadly, cleavage has become all pervasive in american culture. I am a big fan of the female busom, but there is a time and a place for everything.
The other day, at the store, a customer came in who was wearing a shirt cut so low that you could see basically all the way down to just above her areolas, and she was rather well endowed in the chest area, too. No, she wasn't at work at the time, but this is NOT a clothing choice that should be acceptable in public at all.
But if you want proof of what I am saying, look no further than Hillary Clinton, who has, at times, decided to show off her cleavage in the middle of her campaign for presidency. That is just plain wrong.
retail != "professional environment".
He's talking about an office setting.
Didn't you read the rest of my post.
Yes, this happens in professional settings as well. I stated that in a previous post.
When I say professinal settings, I mean offices, and courtrooms, and hospitals, and other settings which I think we can all agree are professional.
Evander on
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited September 2007
Hmm...well I don't know about that. When I go to the professional side I see plenty of secretaries showing off the boobies. Not that I mind too much though...
I wonder if there are just fewer male options for looking professional without wearing a suit. Or maybe it's riskier from a fashion standpoint.
Kilts need to make a comeback. I'd wear one.
To be honest, I think that a lot of what is considered "acceptable" for women to wear inthe workplace these day doesn't look at ALL professional.
Relative to men's dress code, I'd agree. Many women can get away with wearing a t-shirt to work if it doesn't look like it came in a Hanes four pack.
Not even that, but short skirts, and tops with low cut necklines, and open toed shoes, etc.
Work is not a place for cleavage, or to show off your pretty toe-nail polish. Just like men shouldn't be showing up to work in muscle shirts, or shorts, or anything.
this type of stuff still does not fly in a professional environment.
Oh, how I wish you were right.
Sadly, cleavage has become all pervasive in american culture. I am a big fan of the female busom, but there is a time and a place for everything.
The other day, at the store, a customer came in who was wearing a shirt cut so low that you could see basically all the way down to just above her areolas, and she was rather well endowed in the chest area, too. No, she wasn't at work at the time, but this is NOT a clothing choice that should be acceptable in public at all.
But if you want proof of what I am saying, look no further than Hillary Clinton, who has, at times, decided to show off her cleavage in the middle of her campaign for presidency. That is just plain wrong.
It's legal in canada for a woman to walk downtown topless, and braless (no one actually does it that ive ever seen) but they have that option, just like guys often go shirtless. But then stores alot of times have "No shirt no service signs" so you don't have to worry about them walking into a restruant like that.
Power dressing would work against me on the job. I've been working with young adults for years, in positions that require me to be accessible to them. At a university or other post-secondary school, a power outfit (I'm not saying "suit and tie" because I'm female) is great for a lecturer, a high-up administrator, etc. It says, "I am separating myself from the student body". It's not so great if you need or want the students to feel comfortable talking to you about what's going on in their lives. As a thirtysomething person working with university-aged students, my dress is a balancing act. I want to look nice enough that I'm not mistaken for a student, but I don't want to be perceived as somebody who is unapproachable, cold, too "business", etc.
Dressing at work is about fitting into the culture and making the kind of impression that encourages people to interact with you in an optimal manner. You can't make hard and fast rules for all situations, that's just silly.
Edit: On women's dress code... one of the major ways I can distinguish myself from the student body is by dressing modestly. It is sometimes exceedingly difficult to find clothing that looks good, is modest, and isn't designed for women 20 years older than I am. At least the waistlines are starting to creep back up again. Nothing says "class" like having to tug your damn pants up all the time.
SwashbucklerXX on
Want to find me on a gaming service? I'm SwashbucklerXX everywhere.
I wonder if there are just fewer male options for looking professional without wearing a suit. Or maybe it's riskier from a fashion standpoint.
Kilts need to make a comeback. I'd wear one.
To be honest, I think that a lot of what is considered "acceptable" for women to wear inthe workplace these day doesn't look at ALL professional.
Relative to men's dress code, I'd agree. Many women can get away with wearing a t-shirt to work if it doesn't look like it came in a Hanes four pack.
Not even that, but short skirts, and tops with low cut necklines, and open toed shoes, etc.
Work is not a place for cleavage, or to show off your pretty toe-nail polish. Just like men shouldn't be showing up to work in muscle shirts, or shorts, or anything.
this type of stuff still does not fly in a professional environment.
Oh, how I wish you were right.
Sadly, cleavage has become all pervasive in american culture. I am a big fan of the female busom, but there is a time and a place for everything.
The other day, at the store, a customer came in who was wearing a shirt cut so low that you could see basically all the way down to just above her areolas, and she was rather well endowed in the chest area, too. No, she wasn't at work at the time, but this is NOT a clothing choice that should be acceptable in public at all.
But if you want proof of what I am saying, look no further than Hillary Clinton, who has, at times, decided to show off her cleavage in the middle of her campaign for presidency. That is just plain wrong.
It's legal in canada for a woman to walk downtown topless, and braless (no one actually does it that ive ever seen) but they have that option, just like guys often go shirtless. But then stores alot of times have "No shirt no service signs" so you don't have to worry about them walking into a restruant like that.
I forget who I am quoting, but "The right to do something doesn't mean that doing it is right."
And, as I said before, it's just as wrong for a man to behave in equivalent ways. I'm not spouting a double standard here, just pointing out the fact that women dress in this sort of unproffesional manner far more often than men.
Honestly, I think the roots of it are in sexism, and it is enabled to continue by women who want to accentuate their femininity and/or sexuality at work. After this, it is picked up on as well by women who just don't feel like wearing as restrictive a dress-code. Eventually, though, it only serves to make women look less professionally capable as a whole, and is part of the reason why women tend to make less money than men, because of the perception that this sort of dress causes.
In the end, showing off cleavage atwork only serves to set women back. Another effect of it is that, since office attire is generally understood to be stricterthan acceptable public attire, if a small ammount of cleavage is considered acceptable office attire, then casual attire in public becomes akin to flashing random pedestrians. I am exagerating, of course, but seriously, because of how little women get away with wearing at work, they often wear even less out in public, and again, no matter how much I might enjoy seeing it, it just isn't appropriate.
Just imagine if it was your mother/sister/girlfriend/wife/daughter wearing some of these outfits you see in public. Does it seem like such a great idea then?
Of course, not all women are guilty of this, and probably not even the majority, but it is a large enough minority so as to have an impact on what is considered to be the social norm.
Edit: On women's dress code... one of the major ways I can distinguish myself from the student body is by dressing modestly. It is sometimes exceedingly difficult to find clothing that looks good, is modest, and isn't designed for women 20 years older than I am. At least the waistlines are starting to creep back up again. Nothing says "class" like having to tug your damn pants up all the time.
Trust me, I hear you about designers making it difficult to get clothing that looks good without having something else wrong with it.
I'm 6'5, have a seven foot wingspan, size fifteen shoes, shoulders broad-as-fuck, etc. On top of that, I'm just enough overweight that skin-tight shirts (which are exceedingly becoming the male style these days) aren't an option for me.
If I want to buy clothes that have ANY sort of "style" to them, I am stuck with "urban" (code word for Black) styles, that me me look like some white suburban kid who wishes he were black (as opposed to simply being a white suburban kid who wishes he could find clothes that fit better.)
As for shoes, I have to buy them all on the internet.
This conversation reminds me of "til Death" a couple nights ago. Anyone see it?
They had a conversation about her "large bosom" being distracting to everyone else as if they were "two bald men trying to escape your shirt".
Anyway, regarding this topic. I think that decency and equality of men and women in the workplace are very similar and should be regarded similar as well. While it is common to see a man walk around without a shirt (and practically guaranteed for bathing) I personally hate seeing it. Very few common men have bodies that are "pleasant" and its usually gross or revolting to see a guy walking around without a shirt. In my area, it's usually while mowing the lawn.
Women, unfortunately, despite the activists who want the right to walk topless in NY (which is legal now I think) are really in the same category in that while it's a "good idea" for equality, it's not treated as such in real life. Some boobs are just gross (and its usually those women who actually take up their right to be topless) and if you are attractive and going topless it's just going to be seen sexually by men and you lose respect. Especially from coworkers.
Where am I going in all this (I kinda got off track myself), in a workplace everyone should be dressed decently. Men and women should be held to similar standards as far as if you are required to wear suits, women shouldn't have their shirt half-way buttoned down, no matter what the fashion is. Men would be looked at funny if they did this (unless you're fabio) and it shouldn't be accepted from either gender.
I dunno, I lost my train of thought now, so I hope some of that made sense.
This conversation reminds me of "til Death" a couple nights ago. Anyone see it?
They had a conversation about her "large bosom" being distracting to everyone else as if they were "two bald men trying to escape your shirt".
Anyway, regarding this topic. I think that decency and equality of men and women in the workplace are very similar and should be regarded similar as well. While it is common to see a man walk around without a shirt (and practically guaranteed for bathing) I personally hate seeing it. Very few common men have bodies that are "pleasant" and its usually gross or revolting to see a guy walking around without a shirt. In my area, it's usually while mowing the lawn.
Women, unfortunately, despite the activists who want the right to walk topless in NY (which is legal now I think) are really in the same category in that while it's a "good idea" for equality, it's not treated as such in real life. Some boobs are just gross (and its usually those women who actually take up their right to be topless) and if you are attractive and going topless it's just going to be seen sexually by men and you lose respect. Especially from coworkers.
Where am I going in all this (I kinda got off track myself), in a workplace everyone should be dressed decently. Men and women should be held to similar standards as far as if you are required to wear suits, women shouldn't have their shirt half-way buttoned down, no matter what the fashion is. Men would be looked at funny if they did this (unless you're fabio) and it shouldn't be accepted from either gender.
I dunno, I lost my train of thought now, so I hope some of that made sense.
You definitely made sense, and hit the nail on the head right there.
I'm sure that I'm gonna get hell for saying what I'm about to, but I also think that if women dressed less provocatively in the work place it would cut down on incidents of sexual harrassment.
I am NOT blaming the victims here, just stating that there is a change that we can make in our society to prevent some of the instances from ever occuring.
I would never have guessed this forum demographic would, in general, have such conservative views on appropriate dress in the workplace and in public. Not a negative thing, necessarily, just surprising.
I would never have guessed this forum demographic would, in general, have such conservative views on appropriate dress in the workplace and in public. Not a negative thing, necessarily, just surprising.
It's because we're older than most gaming communities I'd assume, where they're still stuck in the "Man you can see boobies no one complains lolol boooooobs" phase.
I would never have guessed this forum demographic would, in general, have such conservative views on appropriate dress in the workplace and in public. Not a negative thing, necessarily, just surprising.
It's because we're older than most gaming communities I'd assume, where they're still stuck in the "Man you can see boobies no one complains lolol boooooobs" phase.
We were supposed to grow out of that? Well, shit.
Honestly, what bothers me most about 'business casual' is that for women it means 'wear something vaguely in style that doesn't reveal too much skin', while for men it means 'wear slacks, a button up shirt and a tie. Nothing else is acceptable'. They might as well just give you a gray jumpsuit that costs $75 and has "I am a professional' written across the front - except that they have to find a way to make it horribly restrictive and uncomfortable first.
I'm just glad I work in games. Cuz nobody gives a shit how you dress then. Plus I'm a writer, so I never have to dress in a suit again in my life if I don't want to. Hell, if a screenwriter went to a Hollywood meeting wearing a nice suit, he'd be less likely to get the job.
I'm sure that I'm gonna get hell for saying what I'm about to, but I also think that if women dressed less provocatively in the work place it would cut down on incidents of sexual harrassment.
I am NOT blaming the victims here, just stating that there is a change that we can make in our society to prevent some of the instances from ever occuring.
Why should we expect the woman to not dress as she wants rather then expect the guy to NOT COMMIT A FUCKING CRIME? That's complete bullshit. Whether it would cut down the instances doesn't matter. My mother is the same way; she think women wouldn't get raped if they stopped dressing in tight clothes. I say women wouldn't get raped if men would stop raping them.
As for dressing at the wrokplace, it's total BS. There's scores of women in my office that show up in tanktops and shorts yet if I tried to wear the same thing I'd be sent home. Man, it just chaps my hide.
I'm sure that I'm gonna get hell for saying what I'm about to, but I also think that if women dressed less provocatively in the work place it would cut down on incidents of sexual harrassment.
I am NOT blaming the victims here, just stating that there is a change that we can make in our society to prevent some of the instances from ever occuring.
Why should we expect the woman to not dress as she wants rather then expect the guy to NOT COMMIT A FUCKING CRIME? That's complete bullshit. Whether it would cut down the instances doesn't matter. My mother is the same way; she think women wouldn't get raped if they stopped dressing in tight clothes. I say women wouldn't get raped if men would stop raping them.
As for dressing at the wrokplace, it's total BS. There's scores of women in my office that show up in tanktops and shorts yet if I tried to wear the same thing I'd be sent home. Man, it just chaps my hide.
Not that it was hard to predict. Pink, I bet everyone here agrees that women wouldn't get raped if men would stop raping them, and that women should be able to wear anything they want. BUT, if in today's current situation, you have less chances being raped or harassed while wearing more modest clothes, would you still dress in a provocative way just to prove a point?
I would never have guessed this forum demographic would, in general, have such conservative views on appropriate dress in the workplace and in public. Not a negative thing, necessarily, just surprising.
I personally think all women should wear turtlenecks to work everyday.
I'm sure that I'm gonna get hell for saying what I'm about to, but I also think that if women never left their bedrooms, it would cut down on incidents of sexual harrassment.
I am NOT blaming the victims here, just stating that there is a change that we can make in our society to prevent some of the instances from ever occuring.
I would never have guessed this forum demographic would, in general, have such conservative views on appropriate dress in the workplace and in public. Not a negative thing, necessarily, just surprising.
I personally think all women should wear turtlenecks to work everyday.
I would never have guessed this forum demographic would, in general, have such conservative views on appropriate dress in the workplace and in public. Not a negative thing, necessarily, just surprising.
It's because we're older than most gaming communities I'd assume, where they're still stuck in the "Man you can see boobies no one complains lolol boooooobs" phase.
I think it's because we have realized that there is a place for sexuality and there are places it should not be.
As for the not be:
Public
Workplace
These two locations, despite what any activists or equalitists(?) or whatever think, are not the place to be bringing something that can be sexual. I think everyone realizes that no matter how advanced our civilization has become from living in caves, men have sex drives that don't shut off and should not be encouraged by either sex in these two places.
I'm not saying anything is particularly wrong in general, because that would irk a lot of people and everyone has different views. What I am saying is that it's inappropriate BECAUSE everyone has different views and its just going to throw people into a turmoil or into situations that they should not have to deal with at those two locations.
I think that there are plenty of guys here on these boards who still love boobs, no matter where they show up. I mean, really, even the last comic showed that.
ArcSyn on
0
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited September 2007
So...stopped down to the Eaton's Centre today and put in an application with Indigo, though manager mentioned that my timeslot (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) seems to be what everyone picks and they currently have alot of students on staff, so that went Oh well, maybe they'll call me for Holiday Season or some other students mysteriously vanish >_> Also dropped one into the HMV just down the street and that seemed to go alot better. There's an Electronics Boutique (or 2) also in the mall that I'm considering, though having never worked in retail period, was wondering if EB's a good part-time job proposition?
Posts
To be honest, I think that a lot of what is considered "acceptable" for women to wear inthe workplace these day doesn't look at ALL professional.
Relative to men's dress code, I'd agree. Many women can get away with wearing a t-shirt to work if it doesn't look like it came in a Hanes four pack.
explain the class differences thing, please.
If everyone looks the same, how can you highlight class differences.
And what do you mean by callingsuits unneccesary? To you, personally, seeing your lawyer or whoever in jeans and a t-shirt may not matter, but to a lot of folks, seeing some one in a suit informs them that this indivdual is taking whatever they are doing seriously. First impressions matter, and clothes are a big part of them.
really, It's like in most office enviroments instead of your Mcdonalds uniform, your wearing a suit.
bastards with shaving! I have to shave almost every 2-3rd day, if I don't I look like a scruffy cave man, who can't even grow a proper beard becuase it comes in patchy in places.
Not even that, but short skirts, and tops with low cut necklines, and open toed shoes, etc.
Work is not a place for cleavage, or to show off your pretty toe-nail polish. Just like men shouldn't be showing up to work in muscle shirts, or shorts, or anything.
Seriously, last post on this: I didn't say they were unnecessary, I said they aren't always necessary. There is no reason for a person in my position (reviewing grants) should have to wear a suit or a tie. Braket, in this case, is wrong. Lawyer? Yeah, if he wants to appear professional to people who assume he's taking them seriously because he wears a suit, then yeah, he might want to wear a suit for his livelihood.
And... nah, I'm not getting into the class argument. That's too much effort. Seriously, last post on clothing in the workplace.
I'm not expecting you to stick around and defend your class statement if you don't want to
I just want you to explain it, because you keep insisting on it.
this type of stuff still does not fly in a professional environment.
Oh, how I wish you were right.
Sadly, cleavage has become all pervasive in american culture. I am a big fan of the female busom, but there is a time and a place for everything.
The other day, at the store, a customer came in who was wearing a shirt cut so low that you could see basically all the way down to just above her areolas, and she was rather well endowed in the chest area, too. No, she wasn't at work at the time, but this is NOT a clothing choice that should be acceptable in public at all.
But if you want proof of what I am saying, look no further than Hillary Clinton, who has, at times, decided to show off her cleavage in the middle of her campaign for presidency. That is just plain wrong.
retail != "professional environment".
He's talking about an office setting.
Didn't you read the rest of my post.
Yes, this happens in professional settings as well. I stated that in a previous post.
When I say professinal settings, I mean offices, and courtrooms, and hospitals, and other settings which I think we can all agree are professional.
It's legal in canada for a woman to walk downtown topless, and braless (no one actually does it that ive ever seen) but they have that option, just like guys often go shirtless. But then stores alot of times have "No shirt no service signs" so you don't have to worry about them walking into a restruant like that.
Dressing at work is about fitting into the culture and making the kind of impression that encourages people to interact with you in an optimal manner. You can't make hard and fast rules for all situations, that's just silly.
Edit: On women's dress code... one of the major ways I can distinguish myself from the student body is by dressing modestly. It is sometimes exceedingly difficult to find clothing that looks good, is modest, and isn't designed for women 20 years older than I am. At least the waistlines are starting to creep back up again. Nothing says "class" like having to tug your damn pants up all the time.
O_o
Also, in my line of work, unless you are wearing a suit, no one will take you seriously at all. Oh and I'd probably get fired.
I forget who I am quoting, but "The right to do something doesn't mean that doing it is right."
And, as I said before, it's just as wrong for a man to behave in equivalent ways. I'm not spouting a double standard here, just pointing out the fact that women dress in this sort of unproffesional manner far more often than men.
Honestly, I think the roots of it are in sexism, and it is enabled to continue by women who want to accentuate their femininity and/or sexuality at work. After this, it is picked up on as well by women who just don't feel like wearing as restrictive a dress-code. Eventually, though, it only serves to make women look less professionally capable as a whole, and is part of the reason why women tend to make less money than men, because of the perception that this sort of dress causes.
In the end, showing off cleavage atwork only serves to set women back. Another effect of it is that, since office attire is generally understood to be stricterthan acceptable public attire, if a small ammount of cleavage is considered acceptable office attire, then casual attire in public becomes akin to flashing random pedestrians. I am exagerating, of course, but seriously, because of how little women get away with wearing at work, they often wear even less out in public, and again, no matter how much I might enjoy seeing it, it just isn't appropriate.
Just imagine if it was your mother/sister/girlfriend/wife/daughter wearing some of these outfits you see in public. Does it seem like such a great idea then?
Of course, not all women are guilty of this, and probably not even the majority, but it is a large enough minority so as to have an impact on what is considered to be the social norm.
Depending the context? Yes.
As a general rule? Hell no :winky:
Trust me, I hear you about designers making it difficult to get clothing that looks good without having something else wrong with it.
I'm 6'5, have a seven foot wingspan, size fifteen shoes, shoulders broad-as-fuck, etc. On top of that, I'm just enough overweight that skin-tight shirts (which are exceedingly becoming the male style these days) aren't an option for me.
If I want to buy clothes that have ANY sort of "style" to them, I am stuck with "urban" (code word for Black) styles, that me me look like some white suburban kid who wishes he were black (as opposed to simply being a white suburban kid who wishes he could find clothes that fit better.)
As for shoes, I have to buy them all on the internet.
Like I said, I am VERY MUCH a fan of the female breast.
VERY MUCH
But there is a certain time and place for it, and it is not out in the middle of public.
Hell, I have the internet on my phone. If I REALLY needed to look at boobs in the middle fo the day, I could pull them out of thin air.
Playstation Pornable, olol
They had a conversation about her "large bosom" being distracting to everyone else as if they were "two bald men trying to escape your shirt".
Anyway, regarding this topic. I think that decency and equality of men and women in the workplace are very similar and should be regarded similar as well. While it is common to see a man walk around without a shirt (and practically guaranteed for bathing) I personally hate seeing it. Very few common men have bodies that are "pleasant" and its usually gross or revolting to see a guy walking around without a shirt. In my area, it's usually while mowing the lawn.
Women, unfortunately, despite the activists who want the right to walk topless in NY (which is legal now I think) are really in the same category in that while it's a "good idea" for equality, it's not treated as such in real life. Some boobs are just gross (and its usually those women who actually take up their right to be topless) and if you are attractive and going topless it's just going to be seen sexually by men and you lose respect. Especially from coworkers.
Where am I going in all this (I kinda got off track myself), in a workplace everyone should be dressed decently. Men and women should be held to similar standards as far as if you are required to wear suits, women shouldn't have their shirt half-way buttoned down, no matter what the fashion is. Men would be looked at funny if they did this (unless you're fabio) and it shouldn't be accepted from either gender.
I dunno, I lost my train of thought now, so I hope some of that made sense.
You definitely made sense, and hit the nail on the head right there.
I'm sure that I'm gonna get hell for saying what I'm about to, but I also think that if women dressed less provocatively in the work place it would cut down on incidents of sexual harrassment.
I am NOT blaming the victims here, just stating that there is a change that we can make in our society to prevent some of the instances from ever occuring.
I have suggested a "Crazy Hat Day" at my office ever since I started.
Surprisingly (unsurprisingly?) it has not happened.
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It's because we're older than most gaming communities I'd assume, where they're still stuck in the "Man you can see boobies no one complains lolol boooooobs" phase.
Come to Québec, it's slowly happening.
Honestly, what bothers me most about 'business casual' is that for women it means 'wear something vaguely in style that doesn't reveal too much skin', while for men it means 'wear slacks, a button up shirt and a tie. Nothing else is acceptable'. They might as well just give you a gray jumpsuit that costs $75 and has "I am a professional' written across the front - except that they have to find a way to make it horribly restrictive and uncomfortable first.
Why should we expect the woman to not dress as she wants rather then expect the guy to NOT COMMIT A FUCKING CRIME? That's complete bullshit. Whether it would cut down the instances doesn't matter. My mother is the same way; she think women wouldn't get raped if they stopped dressing in tight clothes. I say women wouldn't get raped if men would stop raping them.
As for dressing at the wrokplace, it's total BS. There's scores of women in my office that show up in tanktops and shorts yet if I tried to wear the same thing I'd be sent home. Man, it just chaps my hide.
Not that it was hard to predict. Pink, I bet everyone here agrees that women wouldn't get raped if men would stop raping them, and that women should be able to wear anything they want. BUT, if in today's current situation, you have less chances being raped or harassed while wearing more modest clothes, would you still dress in a provocative way just to prove a point?
I personally think all women should wear turtlenecks to work everyday.
And all men should wear crotchless pants.
Is that better for you?
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I think it's because we have realized that there is a place for sexuality and there are places it should not be.
As for the not be:
Public
Workplace
These two locations, despite what any activists or equalitists(?) or whatever think, are not the place to be bringing something that can be sexual. I think everyone realizes that no matter how advanced our civilization has become from living in caves, men have sex drives that don't shut off and should not be encouraged by either sex in these two places.
I'm not saying anything is particularly wrong in general, because that would irk a lot of people and everyone has different views. What I am saying is that it's inappropriate BECAUSE everyone has different views and its just going to throw people into a turmoil or into situations that they should not have to deal with at those two locations.
I think that there are plenty of guys here on these boards who still love boobs, no matter where they show up. I mean, really, even the last comic showed that.
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