Why do you have to have a suit for something to be a real job? O.o Seriously, calm down about it.
"If people are going to make more money than me, they'd better be uncomfortable!"
:?:
I make a fair amount, and it'd be actively inappropriate for me to dress up. I would get weird looks, at the very least. You dress for your environment, not for how much you make -- that's silly.
Edit: to clarify, we agree. I'm responding to the guy you're responding to.
Yeah, where I work (I'm a software developer at a very large company) if there is a meeting with a client or something you put your shoes on and maybe wear a polo shirt instead of a T. There, all dressed up.
And believe me the salaries are a fair bit above the median.
I think everyone realizes that no matter how advanced our civilization has become from living in caves, men have sex drives that don't shut off and should not be encouraged by either sex in these two places.
I'm sorry, I'm not going to argue for partial nudity in the workplace, but don't ever use this argument again. If we structured society to eliminate all temptation, we remove all personal responsibility and also all worthwhile artistic endeavors. Because if you're going to draw a line somewhere, someone else is going to come along and move the line further down, down to the lowest common denominator.
While everyone, regardless of gender, should be concerned for their personal safety, you solve problems by getting to the root of them, not by drawing lines.
I'm sure that I'm gonna get hell for saying what I'm about to, but I also think that if women dressed less provocatively in the work place it would cut down on incidents of sexual harrassment.
I am NOT blaming the victims here, just stating that there is a change that we can make in our society to prevent some of the instances from ever occuring.
Why should we expect the woman to not dress as she wants rather then expect the guy to NOT COMMIT A FUCKING CRIME? That's complete bullshit. Whether it would cut down the instances doesn't matter. My mother is the same way; she think women wouldn't get raped if they stopped dressing in tight clothes. I say women wouldn't get raped if men would stop raping them.
As for dressing at the wrokplace, it's total BS. There's scores of women in my office that show up in tanktops and shorts yet if I tried to wear the same thing I'd be sent home. Man, it just chaps my hide.
Not that it was hard to predict. Pink, I bet everyone here agrees that women wouldn't get raped if men would stop raping them, and that women should be able to wear anything they want. BUT, if in today's current situation, you have less chances being raped or harassed while wearing more modest clothes, would you still dress in a provocative way just to prove a point?
I would be of the mind to not give into the pressure, yes. I would not fault someone for not doing that tho. But EXPECTING someone to alter their dress is just the wrong thing to do. Not that I think anyone is actually saying that, mind you.
I think everyone realizes that no matter how advanced our civilization has become from living in caves, men have sex drives that don't shut off and should not be encouraged by either sex in these two places.
I'm sorry, I'm not going to argue for partial nudity in the workplace, but don't ever use this argument again. If we structured society to eliminate all temptation, we remove all personal responsibility and also all worthwhile artistic endeavors. Because if you're going to draw a line somewhere, someone else is going to come along and move the line further down, down to the lowest common denominator.
While everyone, regardless of gender, should be concerned for their personal safety, you solve problems by getting to the root of them, not by drawing lines.
Yes, I don't think women should not be allowed to dress like they want in public because some retards can't control themselves.
Edit: Magic Pink, I know what you're saying, and I agree, but there is a difference between how things should be and how things are. And considering how things are, it is TRUE that if women didn't dress in a provocative way there'd be less harassement issues. Not saying that the solution to harassement is to not dress in a provocative way. Just saying that you can always lower the risks yourself, even if you shouldn't have to. But you can.
Why do you have to have a suit for something to be a real job? O.o Seriously, calm down about it.
"If people are going to make more money than me, they'd better be uncomfortable!"
:?:
I make a fair amount, and it'd be actively inappropriate for me to dress up. I would get weird looks, at the very least. You dress for your environment, not for how much you make -- that's silly.
Edit: to clarify, we agree. I'm responding to the guy you're responding to.
Yeah, where I work (I'm a software developer at a very large company) if there is a meeting with a client or something you put your shoes on and maybe wear a polo shirt instead of a T. There, all dressed up.
And believe me the salaries are a fair bit above the median.
You guys are comparing apples to oranges. In the type of field where you don't normally have to interact with potential and current clients, obviously your attire doesn't matter as much (IE: Software Developer). In a field where you are in the position of dealing with clients on a professional level, obviously the circumstances change and appearance is vital.
Saying that only people with real jobs dress nice is obviously retarded, because it all depends on what kind of career you have.
These two locations, despite what any activists or equalitists(?) or whatever think, are not the place to be bringing something that can be sexual. I think everyone realizes that no matter how advanced our civilization has become from living in caves, men have sex drives that don't shut off and should not be encouraged by either sex in these two places.
Why do you have to have a suit for something to be a real job? O.o Seriously, calm down about it.
"If people are going to make more money than me, they'd better be uncomfortable!"
:?:
I make a fair amount, and it'd be actively inappropriate for me to dress up. I would get weird looks, at the very least. You dress for your environment, not for how much you make -- that's silly.
Edit: to clarify, we agree. I'm responding to the guy you're responding to.
Yeah, where I work (I'm a software developer at a very large company) if there is a meeting with a client or something you put your shoes on and maybe wear a polo shirt instead of a T. There, all dressed up.
And believe me the salaries are a fair bit above the median.
You guys are comparing apples to oranges. In the type of field where you don't normally have to interact with potential and current clients, obviously your attire doesn't matter as much (IE: Software Developer). In a field where you are in the position of dealing with clients on a professional level, obviously the circumstances change and appearance is vital.
Saying that only people with real jobs dress nice is obviously retarded, because it all depends on what kind of career you have.
We're responding to this guy, below, who is saying you need to dress formal business regardless of your job and especially if you are earning decent money. We're not arguing that everything should be casual.
Buisness casual shits me off, dress like you have a real job people! I mean sure if you work at the theatre you can probably so without it but if you are earning decent money and still have buisness casual as dress code I want to slap your boss.
I have to say it always does irk me when women dress to attract attention and then bitch about getting stares. I'm sorry, you're wearing skin tight pants and a midriff with a low neck and you're *mad* that I looked? I don't stare, I don't make lewd comments or anything like that, but I've been yelled at for double takes on occasion. Meh.
I have to say it always does irk me when women dress to attract attention and then bitch about getting stares. I'm sorry, you're wearing skin tight pants and a midriff with a low neck and you're *mad* that I looked? I don't stare, I don't make lewd comments or anything like that, but I've been yelled at for double takes on occasion. Meh.
Maybe you're just doing it wrong.
Being 6'3", it's really easy for me to take peeks now and then and nobody ever bitched at me. In fact I've made a test, I was chatting with a girl, and purposely made the convo go in that direction (talking about looks, stares and such), and I told her I looked at her chest like 10 times in the last 2-3 minutes. She said she never noticed. Discretion is key.
This said, while I agree that no rape and harassment should take place because of a woman's choice of clothing, if you dress scandily, EXPECT SOME LOOKS. Not stares, not wide-eyes gapes, but LOOKS. This is one thing that I will not concede to ultra-hardcore-feminists. If you dress scandily, it's not right to expect everyone to make sure that they never have you in your line of sight. Why are you dressing like that anyway?
I have to say it always does irk me when women dress to attract attention and then bitch about getting stares. I'm sorry, you're wearing skin tight pants and a midriff with a low neck and you're *mad* that I looked? I don't stare, I don't make lewd comments or anything like that, but I've been yelled at for double takes on occasion. Meh.
Maybe you're just doing it wrong.
Being 6'3", it's really easy for me to take peeks now and then and nobody ever bitched at me.
This said, while I agree that no rape and harassment should take place because of a woman's choice of clothing, if you dress scandily, EXPECT SOME LOOKS. Not stares, not wide-eyes gapes, but LOOKS. This is one thing that I will not concede to ultra-hardcore-feminists. If you dress scandily, it's not right to expect everyone to make sure that they never have you in your line of sight. Why are you dressing like that anyway?
This said, while I agree that no rape and harassment should take place because of a woman's choice of clothing, if you dress scandily, EXPECT SOME LOOKS. Not stares, not wide-eyes gapes, but LOOKS. This is one thing that I will not concede to ultra-hardcore-feminists. If you dress scandily, it's not right to expect everyone to make sure that they never have you in your line of sight. Why are you dressing like that anyway?
Yes, this I agree with. I can dress for the opposite sex, too -- not by wearing skimpy stuff, obviously, but in other ways. I do that to get smiles, looks, and attention. No problem.
My issue with the current argument is that people are suggesting that women in general should dress differently to avoid rape or harassment, since that would, in fact, reduce the number of incidents. That limits their personal freedom as compared to men, and thus is gross gender inequality. You might just as easily say that women staying indoors and not being seen in public would drastically reduce rape, and thus is a good idea.
I, as a male, don't have to worry about my dress to avoid rape. Therefore, women shouldn't either. Basic equality, folks.
Naw, you're right. let's give up: women, you don't get the same personal freedoms, like dress, as men anymore. We men can't control our sexual urges, so it's too dangerous for you.
I would never have guessed this forum demographic would, in general, have such conservative views on appropriate dress in the workplace and in public. Not a negative thing, necessarily, just surprising.
I don't think of it as being "conservative", I think of it as being "not overly liberal"
I'm all for casual dress, honestly, I just think that A) you still need to recognize the importance of how you appear to others, and there are limits to just how much of your sexuality it is appropriate to display in your attire, ESPECIALLY in the workplace.
Evander on
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INeedNoSaltwith blood on my teethRegistered Userregular
Naw, you're right. let's give up: women, you don't get the same personal freedoms, like dress, as men anymore. We men can't control our sexual urges, so it's too dangerous for you.
I don't see what the hell you expect. Let's preemptively imprison would-be rapists?
Alternatively, women could make it equal by raping scantily dressed men.
I'm sure that I'm gonna get hell for saying what I'm about to, but I also think that if women dressed less provocatively in the work place it would cut down on incidents of sexual harrassment.
I am NOT blaming the victims here, just stating that there is a change that we can make in our society to prevent some of the instances from ever occuring.
Why should we expect the woman to not dress as she wants rather then expect the guy to NOT COMMIT A FUCKING CRIME? That's complete bullshit. Whether it would cut down the instances doesn't matter. My mother is the same way; she think women wouldn't get raped if they stopped dressing in tight clothes. I say women wouldn't get raped if men would stop raping them.
As for dressing at the wrokplace, it's total BS. There's scores of women in my office that show up in tanktops and shorts yet if I tried to wear the same thing I'd be sent home. Man, it just chaps my hide.
Like I said, I'm gonna get shit. ;-)
Let me put it this way, if you leave your car unlocked, with the keys in the ignition, it is STILL a crime for some one to drive off in it. However, by locking your door, and taking your keys with you, you simply make yourself less likely to become a victim.
If a women goes to work with her tits hanging out, and a skirt so short that you could mistake it for a belt, she is more likely to get sexually harassed than if she had worn something more appropriate. Now, it is NOT her fault if she gets sexually harassed, just as, in the above example, it's not YOUR fault if the car gets stolen. HOWEVER, there are some simply things that she could have done to better protect herself.
We need to teach people to be smart, not to say to them "it's never your fault, so do whatever the hell you want, and when you're suffering later on, take solice in the fact that you aren't to blame."
What I am saying is, women are doing themselves a disservice by dressing like this. They are promoting the view that women are less professional than men, and yes, they are, in a way, encouraging sexual harassment. That DOES NOT make sexual harassment their own fault, but to pretend that if they dressed differently there would be NO reduction in sexual harassment is just lying to yourself.
I'm sure that I'm gonna get hell for saying what I'm about to, but I also think that if women never left their bedrooms, it would cut down on incidents of sexual harrassment.
I am NOT blaming the victims here, just stating that there is a change that we can make in our society to prevent some of the instances from ever occuring.
see, there are somethings that make sense, and some that don't.
saying that women's necklines shouldn't go any lower than mens neckline do with the one or top buttons undone, that makes sense. There is no way that asking women not to display their cleavage at work is "oppressive".
If you remove the engine from your car, it can't get stolen either, but obviously, that's going to far. That why what you do is lock the door.
I'm not advocating burkas here, I'm advocating similar standards for male and female dress.
It's always hilarious when advocating equality gets you labeled a sexist. :P
men have sex drives that don't shut off and should not be encouraged by either sex in these two places.
I just want to clarify that this is NOT the point I'm making.
It's up to men to control their own damn sex drives. I DO NOT think a woman should ever be blamed for unintentionally turning a man on.
What I am talking about has more to do with showing the proper respect for your work, and for society, by dressing appropriately.
As for the sexual harassment point, I would speak the same way of men, were it commonly acceptable for men to dress in a provacative manner in the workplace. After all, it's not like women are completely asexual in their desires.
men have sex drives that don't shut off and should not be encouraged by either sex in these two places.
I just want to clarify that this is NOT the point I'm making.
It's up to men to control their own damn sex drives. I DO NOT think a woman should ever be blamed for unintentionally turning a man on.
What I am talking about has more to do with showing the proper respect for your work, and for society, by dressing appropriately.
As for the sexual harassment point, I would speak the same way of men, were it commonly acceptable for men to dress in a provacative manner in the workplace. After all, it's not like women are completely asexual in their desires.
I would hate it if someone would come up to me on the street asking them for help if I were dressed up as a Policeman. I am not a policeman officer. JUST BECAUSE IM WEARING A POLICE UNIFORM DOESNT MEAN IM A POLICEMAN.
Same thing for a women just because she dresses a certain way doesnt mean she is a stripper. Some women just enjoy wearing a stripper's uniform.
I have to say it always does irk me when women dress to attract attention and then bitch about getting stares. I'm sorry, you're wearing skin tight pants and a midriff with a low neck and you're *mad* that I looked? I don't stare, I don't make lewd comments or anything like that, but I've been yelled at for double takes on occasion. Meh.
Maybe you're just doing it wrong.
Being 6'3", it's really easy for me to take peeks now and then and nobody ever bitched at me. In fact I've made a test, I was chatting with a girl, and purposely made the convo go in that direction (talking about looks, stares and such), and I told her I looked at her chest like 10 times in the last 2-3 minutes. She said she never noticed. Discretion is key.
This said, while I agree that no rape and harassment should take place because of a woman's choice of clothing, if you dress scandily, EXPECT SOME LOOKS. Not stares, not wide-eyes gapes, but LOOKS. This is one thing that I will not concede to ultra-hardcore-feminists. If you dress scandily, it's not right to expect everyone to make sure that they never have you in your line of sight. Why are you dressing like that anyway?
The issue is that, of course women dress like that to attract attention, but they only want that attention from certain people, not every man in the room.
Unfortunately, you just can't do that. You can't declare "this outfit is only intended for single guys between 25 and 30, who are making 40K+ a year and have blue eyes" and suddenly have all the other guys not care anymore.
It's part of the issue of saying that some one should be allowed to "do whatever they want". Decisions in life DO have consequences, and you have to recognize that before doing something. It's kind of like driving poorly and having the guy behind you rear-end you. Yes, he is legally at fault, and he also should have been paying better attention to what you were doing in front of him and left more space, but your car is still damaged regardless, and it all could have been avoided had you been more careful.
This criticism isn't unique to women's clothing. It also applies to giving out your information over the internet, and lending money to deadbeat relatives, and all other manner of situation where you didn't do anything wrong yourself, but different actions on your part could have still helped to keep you safer from harm.
My issue with the current argument is that people are suggesting that women in general should dress differently to avoid rape or harassment, since that would, in fact, reduce the number of incidents.
Actually, if you look at my initial post, I never said that they SHOULD dress differently, just that if they did, it would have an effect of reducing sexual harassment.
The only thing that I've advocated SHOULD on is applying identical standards of dress to both men and women.
Don't worry, Evander, I think that the few people who didn't get your point the first time got it with your couple last posts. They were pretty clear.
And I agree with what you said. However, on the "look" issue, I still claim that looking isn't wrong, or harmful, or anything bad. If you see it as such, THEN yes, you SHOULDN'T dress scandily.
someone, somewhere, just found what you said sexist. It doesn't matter if you're right or not.
I say we just blind all men, it'd be easier and less painful in the end... :P
Oh, I know that advocating equality is considered sexist these days.
But, like I've advocated, I considered the consequences before I acted, and decided that advocating something important is worth the accusations Iwould definitely recieve.
My issue with the current argument is that people are suggesting that women in general should dress differently to avoid rape or harassment, since that would, in fact, reduce the number of incidents.
My problem with this is that women dressing differently would most likely not, in fact, reduce the number of rapes. The VAST majority of rapes aren't about sex at all - they're about dominance and exerting power over women (sometimes that particular woman, sometimes women in general).
Now, sexual harassment in the workplace is a bit of a different story, but I highly doubt clothing all women in burkas would really have much affect on the rape statistics. The sick rapist batards may use it as an attempt to justify their actions ('the little slut wanted it, look at what she was wearing!'), but everyone I know who has worked in any capacity with the issue of sexual assaults (victim counseling, prevention, whatever) have been very adamant that it's very rarely about sex.
Don't worry, Evander, I think that the few people who didn't get your point the first time got it with your couple last posts. They were pretty clear.
And I agree with what you said. However, on the "look" issue, I still claim that looking isn't wrong, or harmful, or anything bad. If you see it as such, THEN yes, you SHOULDN'T dress scandily.
See, I am of two minds on the looking.
It is simply impolite to begin with.
On the other hand, though, it does no harm in and of itself, so I don't see it as bad.
Yes, there ARE some people with issues that would be set off by having too many people looking at them, but just like women don't dress scantily with the intention of getting raped, men don't stare at attractive women with the intention of setting off issues that they might have.
My issue with the current argument is that people are suggesting that women in general should dress differently to avoid rape or harassment, since that would, in fact, reduce the number of incidents.
My problem with this is that women dressing differently would most likely not, in fact, reduce the number of rapes. The VAST majority of rapes aren't about sex at all - they're about dominance and exerting power over women (sometimes that particular woman, sometimes women in general).
Now, sexual harassment in the workplace is a bit of a different story, but I highly doubt clothing all women in burkas would really have much affect on the rape statistics. The sick rapist batards may use it as an attempt to justify their actions ('the little slut wanted it, look at what she was wearing!'), but everyone I know who has worked in any capacity with the issue of sexual assaults (victim counseling, prevention, whatever) have been very adamant that it's very rarely about sex.
Yeah, ok. Maybe not RAPES, but surely lewd comments and retarded stares would diminish with more modesty.
EDIT: Evander, since when is it impolite to look at someone? It's ok to look at someone's hands for maybe a second or two while talking, right? You can't just stare down someone's eyes during a conversation. Sometimes your eyes wander, and I mean everywhere: a wall, something that moved behind the person you're talking to, etc. I just don't think cleavage or hands are really different on that matter. Really, what's impolite is staring at a particular body part for a while. I don't see the problem with looking.
My issue with the current argument is that people are suggesting that women in general should dress differently to avoid rape or harassment, since that would, in fact, reduce the number of incidents.
My problem with this is that women dressing differently would most likely not, in fact, reduce the number of rapes. The VAST majority of rapes aren't about sex at all - they're about dominance and exerting power over women (sometimes that particular woman, sometimes women in general).
Now, sexual harassment in the workplace is a bit of a different story, but I highly doubt clothing all women in burkas would really have much affect on the rape statistics. The sick rapist batards may use it as an attempt to justify their actions ('the little slut wanted it, look at what she was wearing!'), but everyone I know who has worked in any capacity with the issue of sexual assaults (victim counseling, prevention, whatever) have been very adamant that it's very rarely about sex.
for the record, rape was brought up by Pink, who was arguin AGAINST what I said.
basically, rape is completely irrelevant to the discussion. All I was talking about was sexual harassment.
So...stopped down to the Eaton's Centre today and put in an application with Indigo, though manager mentioned that my timeslot (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) seems to be what everyone picks and they currently have alot of students on staff, so that went Oh well, maybe they'll call me for Holiday Season or some other students mysteriously vanish >_> Also dropped one into the HMV just down the street and that seemed to go alot better. There's an Electronics Boutique (or 2) also in the mall that I'm considering, though having never worked in retail period, was wondering if EB's a good part-time job proposition?
So...stopped down to the Eaton's Centre today and put in an application with Indigo, though manager mentioned that my timeslot (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) seems to be what everyone picks and they currently have alot of students on staff, so that went Oh well, maybe they'll call me for Holiday Season or some other students mysteriously vanish >_> Also dropped one into the HMV just down the street and that seemed to go alot better. There's an Electronics Boutique (or 2) also in the mall that I'm considering, though having never worked in retail period, was wondering if EB's a good part-time job proposition?
you in victoria?
I think Toronto... at least, Eaton's Centre in TO has an Indigo, an HMV down the street, and a shitty EB in the basement. If I were working at an EB, I wouldn't choose that one. It's wall to wall 8-14 year old boys every time we go past it. And I mean literally wall to wall.
If it is indeed Toronto, you might think of going north a bit on the TTC to areas that aren't right next to two large universities. I bet the retail locations in the middle of 30SomethingWithKidsville will have more call for weekend workers. There's an EB and (even better) the Gamearama near Yonge and Eglington, f'rinstance.
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When I worked at Target, I once rang a man up for 4 jumbo boxes of various sized magnums and several tubes of lube. He had a Puerto Rico driver's licence.
It was also this same job where someone finishing for the night found a carseat box stuffed with about 20 boxes of Sudafed and its cheap counterpart.
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Yeah, where I work (I'm a software developer at a very large company) if there is a meeting with a client or something you put your shoes on and maybe wear a polo shirt instead of a T. There, all dressed up.
And believe me the salaries are a fair bit above the median.
I'm sorry, I'm not going to argue for partial nudity in the workplace, but don't ever use this argument again. If we structured society to eliminate all temptation, we remove all personal responsibility and also all worthwhile artistic endeavors. Because if you're going to draw a line somewhere, someone else is going to come along and move the line further down, down to the lowest common denominator.
While everyone, regardless of gender, should be concerned for their personal safety, you solve problems by getting to the root of them, not by drawing lines.
I would be of the mind to not give into the pressure, yes. I would not fault someone for not doing that tho. But EXPECTING someone to alter their dress is just the wrong thing to do. Not that I think anyone is actually saying that, mind you.
Yes, I don't think women should not be allowed to dress like they want in public because some retards can't control themselves.
Edit: Magic Pink, I know what you're saying, and I agree, but there is a difference between how things should be and how things are. And considering how things are, it is TRUE that if women didn't dress in a provocative way there'd be less harassement issues. Not saying that the solution to harassement is to not dress in a provocative way. Just saying that you can always lower the risks yourself, even if you shouldn't have to. But you can.
You guys are comparing apples to oranges. In the type of field where you don't normally have to interact with potential and current clients, obviously your attire doesn't matter as much (IE: Software Developer). In a field where you are in the position of dealing with clients on a professional level, obviously the circumstances change and appearance is vital.
Saying that only people with real jobs dress nice is obviously retarded, because it all depends on what kind of career you have.
You have GOT to be kidding me.
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Hahahahaha
Maybe you're just doing it wrong.
Being 6'3", it's really easy for me to take peeks now and then and nobody ever bitched at me. In fact I've made a test, I was chatting with a girl, and purposely made the convo go in that direction (talking about looks, stares and such), and I told her I looked at her chest like 10 times in the last 2-3 minutes. She said she never noticed. Discretion is key.
This said, while I agree that no rape and harassment should take place because of a woman's choice of clothing, if you dress scandily, EXPECT SOME LOOKS. Not stares, not wide-eyes gapes, but LOOKS. This is one thing that I will not concede to ultra-hardcore-feminists. If you dress scandily, it's not right to expect everyone to make sure that they never have you in your line of sight. Why are you dressing like that anyway?
Rape, lewd comments, groping, stares, harassment? Fucking disgusting.
Looks? Perfectly acceptable.
Oh yeah, about that. They are just pretending to be pissed.
My issue with the current argument is that people are suggesting that women in general should dress differently to avoid rape or harassment, since that would, in fact, reduce the number of incidents. That limits their personal freedom as compared to men, and thus is gross gender inequality. You might just as easily say that women staying indoors and not being seen in public would drastically reduce rape, and thus is a good idea.
I, as a male, don't have to worry about my dress to avoid rape. Therefore, women shouldn't either. Basic equality, folks.
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I don't think of it as being "conservative", I think of it as being "not overly liberal"
I'm all for casual dress, honestly, I just think that A) you still need to recognize the importance of how you appear to others, and
I don't see what the hell you expect. Let's preemptively imprison would-be rapists?
Alternatively, women could make it equal by raping scantily dressed men.
Like I said, I'm gonna get shit. ;-)
Let me put it this way, if you leave your car unlocked, with the keys in the ignition, it is STILL a crime for some one to drive off in it. However, by locking your door, and taking your keys with you, you simply make yourself less likely to become a victim.
If a women goes to work with her tits hanging out, and a skirt so short that you could mistake it for a belt, she is more likely to get sexually harassed than if she had worn something more appropriate. Now, it is NOT her fault if she gets sexually harassed, just as, in the above example, it's not YOUR fault if the car gets stolen. HOWEVER, there are some simply things that she could have done to better protect herself.
We need to teach people to be smart, not to say to them "it's never your fault, so do whatever the hell you want, and when you're suffering later on, take solice in the fact that you aren't to blame."
What I am saying is, women are doing themselves a disservice by dressing like this. They are promoting the view that women are less professional than men, and yes, they are, in a way, encouraging sexual harassment. That DOES NOT make sexual harassment their own fault, but to pretend that if they dressed differently there would be NO reduction in sexual harassment is just lying to yourself.
see, there are somethings that make sense, and some that don't.
saying that women's necklines shouldn't go any lower than mens neckline do with the one or top buttons undone, that makes sense. There is no way that asking women not to display their cleavage at work is "oppressive".
If you remove the engine from your car, it can't get stolen either, but obviously, that's going to far. That why what you do is lock the door.
I'm not advocating burkas here, I'm advocating similar standards for male and female dress.
It's always hilarious when advocating equality gets you labeled a sexist. :P
I just want to clarify that this is NOT the point I'm making.
It's up to men to control their own damn sex drives. I DO NOT think a woman should ever be blamed for unintentionally turning a man on.
What I am talking about has more to do with showing the proper respect for your work, and for society, by dressing appropriately.
As for the sexual harassment point, I would speak the same way of men, were it commonly acceptable for men to dress in a provacative manner in the workplace. After all, it's not like women are completely asexual in their desires.
I would hate it if someone would come up to me on the street asking them for help if I were dressed up as a Policeman. I am not a policeman officer. JUST BECAUSE IM WEARING A POLICE UNIFORM DOESNT MEAN IM A POLICEMAN.
Same thing for a women just because she dresses a certain way doesnt mean she is a stripper. Some women just enjoy wearing a stripper's uniform.
The issue is that, of course women dress like that to attract attention, but they only want that attention from certain people, not every man in the room.
Unfortunately, you just can't do that. You can't declare "this outfit is only intended for single guys between 25 and 30, who are making 40K+ a year and have blue eyes" and suddenly have all the other guys not care anymore.
It's part of the issue of saying that some one should be allowed to "do whatever they want". Decisions in life DO have consequences, and you have to recognize that before doing something. It's kind of like driving poorly and having the guy behind you rear-end you. Yes, he is legally at fault, and he also should have been paying better attention to what you were doing in front of him and left more space, but your car is still damaged regardless, and it all could have been avoided had you been more careful.
This criticism isn't unique to women's clothing. It also applies to giving out your information over the internet, and lending money to deadbeat relatives, and all other manner of situation where you didn't do anything wrong yourself, but different actions on your part could have still helped to keep you safer from harm.
I say we just blind all men, it'd be easier and less painful in the end... :P
Actually, if you look at my initial post, I never said that they SHOULD dress differently, just that if they did, it would have an effect of reducing sexual harassment.
The only thing that I've advocated SHOULD on is applying identical standards of dress to both men and women.
And I agree with what you said. However, on the "look" issue, I still claim that looking isn't wrong, or harmful, or anything bad. If you see it as such, THEN yes, you SHOULDN'T dress scandily.
Oh, I know that advocating equality is considered sexist these days.
But, like I've advocated, I considered the consequences before I acted, and decided that advocating something important is worth the accusations Iwould definitely recieve.
My problem with this is that women dressing differently would most likely not, in fact, reduce the number of rapes. The VAST majority of rapes aren't about sex at all - they're about dominance and exerting power over women (sometimes that particular woman, sometimes women in general).
Now, sexual harassment in the workplace is a bit of a different story, but I highly doubt clothing all women in burkas would really have much affect on the rape statistics. The sick rapist batards may use it as an attempt to justify their actions ('the little slut wanted it, look at what she was wearing!'), but everyone I know who has worked in any capacity with the issue of sexual assaults (victim counseling, prevention, whatever) have been very adamant that it's very rarely about sex.
See, I am of two minds on the looking.
It is simply impolite to begin with.
On the other hand, though, it does no harm in and of itself, so I don't see it as bad.
Yes, there ARE some people with issues that would be set off by having too many people looking at them, but just like women don't dress scantily with the intention of getting raped, men don't stare at attractive women with the intention of setting off issues that they might have.
Yeah, ok. Maybe not RAPES, but surely lewd comments and retarded stares would diminish with more modesty.
EDIT: Evander, since when is it impolite to look at someone? It's ok to look at someone's hands for maybe a second or two while talking, right? You can't just stare down someone's eyes during a conversation. Sometimes your eyes wander, and I mean everywhere: a wall, something that moved behind the person you're talking to, etc. I just don't think cleavage or hands are really different on that matter. Really, what's impolite is staring at a particular body part for a while. I don't see the problem with looking.
for the record, rape was brought up by Pink, who was arguin AGAINST what I said.
basically, rape is completely irrelevant to the discussion. All I was talking about was sexual harassment.
you in victoria?
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?p=2993073#post2993073
I think Toronto... at least, Eaton's Centre in TO has an Indigo, an HMV down the street, and a shitty EB in the basement. If I were working at an EB, I wouldn't choose that one. It's wall to wall 8-14 year old boys every time we go past it. And I mean literally wall to wall.
If it is indeed Toronto, you might think of going north a bit on the TTC to areas that aren't right next to two large universities. I bet the retail locations in the middle of 30SomethingWithKidsville will have more call for weekend workers. There's an EB and (even better) the Gamearama near Yonge and Eglington, f'rinstance.
It was also this same job where someone finishing for the night found a carseat box stuffed with about 20 boxes of Sudafed and its cheap counterpart.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534