No I am not into religion. Yeah I follow the holidays and traditions, but being religious? Nah. I mean I eat things from the sea that don't have fins but I don't eat pork. I pick and choose because when I turned 16 I was told by my parents to do what I like as long as you can still call yourself jewish. So I picked and chose. Yeah I keep most of the things, but I have skipped on alot as well.
Isn't a child forced to the tenants of its culture in many more aspects?
Manner of dress, manner of speech, holidays observed, cosmetic changes such as piercings etc. are all heavily influenced by the atmosphere in which you are raised in.
While many psychological things will stay with you forever, the human psyche is fairly mutable. Piercings heal fairly easily. Your clothing you can change pretty fricking easily.
Most people, I think it is safe to say, adhere to the same religion that their parents adhere to. (I don't think this is very wise, but that's a different argument.)
Parents will bring their children up into the culture and traditions that they believe in. That's just parenting and socialization, and by comparison this doesn't seem quite so terrible. This isn't extensive mutiltation, it's an extremely basic surgical procedure that doesn't damage the recipient in any way beyond initial pain.
It's more extensive than it needs to be, and cannot heal. You can do things to replicate it, but the tissue is gone, forever, and isn't coming back, and the process of replicating it is fricking costly and unpleasant.
I am, personally, of the opinion that, in the modern age, where having a child is not required for survival and cannot be easily prevented outside of abstinence, that anyone having a child has a duty to that child.
You are bringing someone in to the world and exposing them to all the negative and positive possible in life. They have no choice in the matter, and you cannot predict their life. You are, thus, GAMBLING with their entirety. So you damned better make sure you do your best to make sure you don't fuck it up. You want to minimize the dice rolls as much as possible, and focusing on things that have the best chance of providing happiness.
Because has to suffer your stupid if you make a bad choice they can't reverse.
No I am not into religion. Yeah I follow the holidays and traditions, but being religious? Nah. I mean I eat things from the sea that don't have fins but I don't eat pork. I pick and choose because when I turned 16 I was told by my parents to do what I like as long as you can still call yourself jewish. So I picked and chose. Yeah I keep most of the things, but I have skipped on alot as well.
Couldn't you just skip the brit malah, too?
Why would I do that? Thats an important tradition.
By the way, circumcision is pretty much the only surgery that's routinely done before any disease is presented. We could easily remove an infant's tonsils and appendix immediately after birth for much the same reason we circumcise, but we don't, because until there's evidence that the excised tissue is actually diseased, the surgery would be considered unnecessary.
Circumcision is an outlier to accepted medical practice.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Isn't a child forced to the tenants of its culture in many more aspects?
Manner of dress, manner of speech, holidays observed, cosmetic changes such as piercings etc. are all heavily influenced by the atmosphere in which you are raised in.
While many psychological things will stay with you forever, the human psyche is fairly mutable. Piercings heal fairly easily. Your clothing you can change pretty fricking easily.
Most people, I think it is safe to say, adhere to the same religion that their parents adhere to. (I don't think this is very wise, but that's a different argument.)
Parents will bring their children up into the culture and traditions that they believe in. That's just parenting and socialization, and by comparison this doesn't seem quite so terrible. This isn't extensive mutiltation, it's an extremely basic surgical procedure that doesn't damage the recipient in any way beyond initial pain.
It's more extensive than it needs to be, and cannot heal. You can do things to replicate it, but the tissue is gone, forever, and isn't coming back, and the process of replicating it is fricking costly and unpleasant.
I am, personally, of the opinion that, in the modern age, where having a child is not required for survival and cannot be easily prevented outside of abstinence, that anyone having a child has a duty to that child.
You are bringing someone in to the world and exposing them to all the negative and positive possible in life. They have no choice in the matter, and you cannot predict their life. You are, thus, GAMBLING with their entirety. So you damned better make sure you do your best to make sure you don't fuck it up. You want to minimize the dice rolls as much as possible, and focusing on things that have the best chance of providing happiness.
Because has to suffer your stupid if you make a bad choice they can't reverse.
I don't really understand one of your viewpoints. After being circumcised, who would be so disgusted as to want to undergo foreskin replacement surgery? Is this purely an aesthetic concern?
No I am not into religion. Yeah I follow the holidays and traditions, but being religious? Nah. I mean I eat things from the sea that don't have fins but I don't eat pork. I pick and choose because when I turned 16 I was told by my parents to do what I like as long as you can still call yourself jewish. So I picked and chose. Yeah I keep most of the things, but I have skipped on alot as well.
Couldn't you just skip the brit malah, too?
Why would I do that? Thats an important tradition.
After being circumcised, who would be so disgusted as to want to undergo foreskin replacement surgery? Is this purely an aesthetic concern?
Some people believe that the foreskin is a natural part of the penis and that by removing it unnecessarily they have been mutilated in some way. Ergo, they want to be 'healed' by returning to what they consider to be their natural healthy state.
It shouldn't be that difficult to understand.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
No I am not into religion. Yeah I follow the holidays and traditions, but being religious? Nah. I mean I eat things from the sea that don't have fins but I don't eat pork. I pick and choose because when I turned 16 I was told by my parents to do what I like as long as you can still call yourself jewish. So I picked and chose. Yeah I keep most of the things, but I have skipped on alot as well.
Couldn't you just skip the brit malah, too?
Why would I do that? Thats an important tradition.
So are all the other things you've chosen to skip.
Your arguments are weak and your reasoning even worse.
On what end? The allowed to choose how religious you are or me wanting to stick with tradition?
The part where you're only religious to appease others and everything that goes along with that.
This coming from a hardened atheist mind you.
Meh. I don't consider that a burden when you can live your own life as you want to. Do you break out of Societies rules I am guessing? Do you throw away kindness and respect because its outdated in a dog eat dog world?
No I am not into religion. Yeah I follow the holidays and traditions, but being religious? Nah. I mean I eat things from the sea that don't have fins but I don't eat pork. I pick and choose because when I turned 16 I was told by my parents to do what I like as long as you can still call yourself jewish. So I picked and chose. Yeah I keep most of the things, but I have skipped on alot as well.
Couldn't you just skip the brit malah, too?
Why would I do that? Thats an important tradition.
So are all the other things you've chosen to skip.
Your arguments are weak and your reasoning even worse.
Thats the idea of picking and choosing. It might not be right and I might end somewhere I don't want to be, but in the end I am confident I chose the right think because its my choice of what to follow or not.
On what end? The allowed to choose how religious you are or me wanting to stick with tradition?
The part where you're only religious to appease others and everything that goes along with that.
This coming from a hardened atheist mind you.
Meh. I don't consider that a burden when you can live your own life as you want to. Do you break out of Societies rules I am guessing? Do you throw away kindness and respect because its outdated in a dog eat dog world?
Regardless this will only end going in circles.
Can you tell me how living your own life the way you want to somehow fits in with conforming to a religion you seem to care nothing about?
Break out of societies rules? What rules? Throw away kindness? I'm not really following you here.
I don't really understand one of your viewpoints. After being circumcised, who would be so disgusted as to want to undergo foreskin replacement surgery? Is this purely an aesthetic concern?
You would have to ask the people who have it done.
Personally, I am angry about it, but I've had my body sacrificed to my parents in more serious ways, like my fucked up hip from digging out a foundation in the rain under parental orders.
It's entirely possible it has to do with dating non-Americans/Jews/Etc., who would find it grotesque.
and still no one has posted anything about how often circumcision is botched. i'm sure it happens, but cite something, geez.
The rate of complications during circumcision is estimated to be 2-10%, but if you include extreme bleeding as a complication, the rate shoots up to 35% and one study found a rate as high as 55%.
2-10% study sounds legit in how it was studied, but i think the sample size in the last one was way too small. i dunno, like i said, obviously complications are going to happen with any sort of surgery, but i don't know that it happens often enough in circumcision to warrant it not being used on a medical basis.
Pants Man on
"okay byron, my grandma has a right to be happy, so i give you my blessing. just... don't get her pregnant. i don't need another mom."
No I am not into religion. Yeah I follow the holidays and traditions, but being religious? Nah. I mean I eat things from the sea that don't have fins but I don't eat pork. I pick and choose because when I turned 16 I was told by my parents to do what I like as long as you can still call yourself jewish. So I picked and chose. Yeah I keep most of the things, but I have skipped on alot as well.
Couldn't you just skip the brit malah, too?
Why would I do that? Thats an important tradition.
So are all the other things you've chosen to skip.
Your arguments are weak and your reasoning even worse.
Thats the idea of picking and choosing. It might not be right and I might end somewhere I don't want to be, but in the end I am confident I chose the right think because its my choice of what to follow or not.
No offense, but your approach here is retarded and worse than someone who actually just blindly follows traditions. At least people that follow traditions for tradition's sake (or out of blind devotion to their religion) actually have something that resembles a reason for doing so.
You, on the other hand, are acknowledging that a lot of these traditions are bunk but you're deciding to arbitrarily choose some of them to continue following. You don't even have a bad reason for following the traditions you follow, you don't have any reason. It's befuddling. A bad reason is still better than no reason.
and still no one has posted anything about how often circumcision is botched. i'm sure it happens, but cite something, geez.
The rate of complications during circumcision is estimated to be 2-10%, but if you include extreme bleeding as a complication, the rate shoots up to 35% and one study found a rate as high as 55%.
2-10% study sounds legit in how it was studied, but i think the sample size in the last one was way too small. i dunno, like i said, obviously complications are going to happen with any sort of surgery, but i don't know that it happens often enough in circumcision to warrant it not being used on a medical basis.
obviously complications are going to happen with any sort of surgery, but i don't know that it happens often enough in circumcision to warrant it not being used on a medical basis.
You've got it backwards. It's fine to use it on a medical basis. But performing a surgery for religious reasons is not a medical basis. Performing a surgery on healthy tissue before any disease has presented is not a medical basis.
The burden of proof should be on the people who show that the risk of an infant's foreskin causing disease is so dramatically high that it warrants preemptive removal in the majority of cases.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
obviously complications are going to happen with any sort of surgery, but i don't know that it happens often enough in circumcision to warrant it not being used on a medical basis.
You've got it backwards. It's fine to use it on a medical basis. But performing a surgery for religious reasons is not a medical basis. Performing a surgery on healthy tissue before any disease has presented is not a medical basis.
The burden of proof should be on the people who show that the risk of an infant's foreskin causing disease is so dramatically high that it warrants preemptive removal in the majority of cases.
Well, if you think Thor is going to swat your child into a fleshy pulp because you didn't get your child circumcised, that might qualify as a "medical reason." ;-)
i really really wish someone would cite the stats on how often circumcision is screwed up instead of just saying "it happens"
cutting the umbilical cord is technically "unnecessary surgery," but we still do it, and it carries about as much risk as circumcision does.
Last article I saw quoted 1 in 300 or so, which is 'ly high. Anyway, if you're so damn curious, is there some reason you can't go to PubMed and run a search yourself?
So you agree that tradition alone is not a sufficient reason to engage in a practice, and therefore appeals to tradition are weak arguments?
Depends on a person. My engaging in the practice of not eating Pork is highly and stickly enforced by myself. On the other hand, my practice of eating everything from the sea counter acts from that tradition. If I appeal on tradition based on not eating pork I am in the right because I am not currently engaging in the process. However my eating of seafood makes it so I cannot appeal that tradition. I have chosen to follow the circumcision on, thus I can appeal.
I don't know if that makes sense to you, but it does to me.
So you agree that tradition alone is not a sufficient reason to engage in a practice, and therefore appeals to tradition are weak arguments?
Depends on a person. My engaging in the practice of not eating Pork is highly and stickly enforced by myself. On the other hand, my practice of eating everything from the sea counter acts from that tradition. If I appeal on tradition based on not eating pork I am in the right because I am not currently engaging in the process. However my eating of seafood makes it so I cannot appeal that tradition. I have chosen to follow the circumcision on, thus I can appeal.
I don't know if that makes sense to you, but it does to me.
On what end? The allowed to choose how religious you are or me wanting to stick with tradition?
The part where you're only religious to appease others and everything that goes along with that.
This coming from a hardened atheist mind you.
Meh. I don't consider that a burden when you can live your own life as you want to. Do you break out of Societies rules I am guessing? Do you throw away kindness and respect because its outdated in a dog eat dog world?
Regardless this will only end going in circles.
What? You should respect people and be kind because you realize that is how people want to be treated.
I know I want to be shown respect and kindness, so I try and do the same for others as much as I can.
On topic: Circumcision is pretty lame. And makes me sad.
So you agree that tradition alone is not a sufficient reason to engage in a practice, and therefore appeals to tradition are weak arguments?
Depends on a person. My engaging in the practice of not eating Pork is highly and stickly enforced by myself. On the other hand, my practice of eating everything from the sea counter acts from that tradition. If I appeal on tradition based on not eating pork I am in the right because I am not currently engaging in the process. However my eating of seafood makes it so I cannot appeal that tradition. I have chosen to follow the circumcision on, thus I can appeal.
I don't know if that makes sense to you, but it does to me.
It doesn't make any sense to anyone and it shouldn't make sense to you either.
#1: "I circumcise because God tells me to."
#2: "God tells me not to eat certain seafood, but I do anyway."
The fact that you follow #2 means that your appeal in #1 is meaningless. Arbitrarily choosing which traditions to follow to the same end (that part is very important) means that you don't care about the end at all, so the means you choose to achieve that end are valueless, at least in this case. Either you follow all your traditions or none; this half-assed tradition-following is absurd.
No. It really doesn't. You have not actually given any reasons why you choose to engage or not engage in any particular tradition. Your "reasoning" (I'm using that term loosely here) boils down to "I do what I do because that's what I do."
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
So you agree that tradition alone is not a sufficient reason to engage in a practice, and therefore appeals to tradition are weak arguments?
Depends on a person. My engaging in the practice of not eating Pork is highly and stickly enforced by myself. On the other hand, my practice of eating everything from the sea counter acts from that tradition. If I appeal on tradition based on not eating pork I am in the right because I am not currently engaging in the process. However my eating of seafood makes it so I cannot appeal that tradition. I have chosen to follow the circumcision on, thus I can appeal.
I don't know if that makes sense to you, but it does to me.
That doesn't make sense to anyone. All you've said is "I'm appealing only to some traditions" and missed the "because" bit which is supposed to somehow (if poorly) justify that.
The only reason to circumcize is brought on by social training.
"Do this or you and/or your child will be rejected." or "Do this because the alternative is not the norm and therefor wrong and to be reviled." or "Despite evolution and medicine and shit even creationist idealism the human body is not functional naturally, so you must modify it with a sharp object."
Either it's a stupid social badge or it's pure ignorance.
Posts
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
...
A Shoggoth on the Roof, huh? What...the...fuck?
The part where you're only religious to appease others and everything that goes along with that.
This coming from a hardened atheist mind you.
While many psychological things will stay with you forever, the human psyche is fairly mutable. Piercings heal fairly easily. Your clothing you can change pretty fricking easily.
It's more extensive than it needs to be, and cannot heal. You can do things to replicate it, but the tissue is gone, forever, and isn't coming back, and the process of replicating it is fricking costly and unpleasant.
I am, personally, of the opinion that, in the modern age, where having a child is not required for survival and cannot be easily prevented outside of abstinence, that anyone having a child has a duty to that child.
You are bringing someone in to the world and exposing them to all the negative and positive possible in life. They have no choice in the matter, and you cannot predict their life. You are, thus, GAMBLING with their entirety. So you damned better make sure you do your best to make sure you don't fuck it up. You want to minimize the dice rolls as much as possible, and focusing on things that have the best chance of providing happiness.
Because has to suffer your stupid if you make a bad choice they can't reverse.
Why would I do that? Thats an important tradition.
Circumcision is an outlier to accepted medical practice.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I don't really know, I just felt compelled to post that.
I don't really understand one of your viewpoints. After being circumcised, who would be so disgusted as to want to undergo foreskin replacement surgery? Is this purely an aesthetic concern?
Traditional != good
Some people believe that the foreskin is a natural part of the penis and that by removing it unnecessarily they have been mutilated in some way. Ergo, they want to be 'healed' by returning to what they consider to be their natural healthy state.
It shouldn't be that difficult to understand.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Your arguments are weak and your reasoning even worse.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
Meh. I don't consider that a burden when you can live your own life as you want to. Do you break out of Societies rules I am guessing? Do you throw away kindness and respect because its outdated in a dog eat dog world?
Regardless this will only end going in circles.
Thats the idea of picking and choosing. It might not be right and I might end somewhere I don't want to be, but in the end I am confident I chose the right think because its my choice of what to follow or not.
Sorry, but how quickly get aroused does not equal how much sensation you experience during sexual intercourse.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
So you agree that tradition alone is not a sufficient reason to engage in a practice, and therefore appeals to tradition are weak arguments?
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Can you tell me how living your own life the way you want to somehow fits in with conforming to a religion you seem to care nothing about?
Break out of societies rules? What rules? Throw away kindness? I'm not really following you here.
You would have to ask the people who have it done.
Personally, I am angry about it, but I've had my body sacrificed to my parents in more serious ways, like my fucked up hip from digging out a foundation in the rain under parental orders.
It's entirely possible it has to do with dating non-Americans/Jews/Etc., who would find it grotesque.
2-10% study sounds legit in how it was studied, but i think the sample size in the last one was way too small. i dunno, like i said, obviously complications are going to happen with any sort of surgery, but i don't know that it happens often enough in circumcision to warrant it not being used on a medical basis.
No offense, but your approach here is retarded and worse than someone who actually just blindly follows traditions. At least people that follow traditions for tradition's sake (or out of blind devotion to their religion) actually have something that resembles a reason for doing so.
You, on the other hand, are acknowledging that a lot of these traditions are bunk but you're deciding to arbitrarily choose some of them to continue following. You don't even have a bad reason for following the traditions you follow, you don't have any reason. It's befuddling. A bad reason is still better than no reason.
And what is that medical basis pray tell?
You've got it backwards. It's fine to use it on a medical basis. But performing a surgery for religious reasons is not a medical basis. Performing a surgery on healthy tissue before any disease has presented is not a medical basis.
The burden of proof should be on the people who show that the risk of an infant's foreskin causing disease is so dramatically high that it warrants preemptive removal in the majority of cases.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Well, if you think Thor is going to swat your child into a fleshy pulp because you didn't get your child circumcised, that might qualify as a "medical reason." ;-)
Last article I saw quoted 1 in 300 or so, which is
Depends on a person. My engaging in the practice of not eating Pork is highly and stickly enforced by myself. On the other hand, my practice of eating everything from the sea counter acts from that tradition. If I appeal on tradition based on not eating pork I am in the right because I am not currently engaging in the process. However my eating of seafood makes it so I cannot appeal that tradition. I have chosen to follow the circumcision on, thus I can appeal.
I don't know if that makes sense to you, but it does to me.
"I pick and choose from my religion."
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
You're a liar. We get it.
What? You should respect people and be kind because you realize that is how people want to be treated.
I know I want to be shown respect and kindness, so I try and do the same for others as much as I can.
On topic: Circumcision is pretty lame. And makes me sad.
I'm more worried that I had to have my canine teeth grinded down a bit to accommodate my braces years ago. I no longer have rad sharp pointy teeth.
Is it a weird practice? Yes. Is it destructive and horrible? No.
It doesn't make any sense to anyone and it shouldn't make sense to you either.
#1: "I circumcise because God tells me to."
#2: "God tells me not to eat certain seafood, but I do anyway."
The fact that you follow #2 means that your appeal in #1 is meaningless. Arbitrarily choosing which traditions to follow to the same end (that part is very important) means that you don't care about the end at all, so the means you choose to achieve that end are valueless, at least in this case. Either you follow all your traditions or none; this half-assed tradition-following is absurd.
Dude that's harsh. Don't be that guy.
No. It really doesn't. You have not actually given any reasons why you choose to engage or not engage in any particular tradition. Your "reasoning" (I'm using that term loosely here) boils down to "I do what I do because that's what I do."
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
That doesn't make sense to anyone. All you've said is "I'm appealing only to some traditions" and missed the "because" bit which is supposed to somehow (if poorly) justify that.
That's really the only reason.
Just like how people freak out about nudity.
"Do this or you and/or your child will be rejected." or "Do this because the alternative is not the norm and therefor wrong and to be reviled." or "Despite evolution and medicine and shit even creationist idealism the human body is not functional naturally, so you must modify it with a sharp object."
Either it's a stupid social badge or it's pure ignorance.
I don't think that's right.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
It is quite surely a dubious assumption. I'm curious how other countries view circumcision in general.
I don't agree with a hospital making a decision on an assumption.
But then again, I don't like my auto garage doing that either.
I agree with you 100%.
Except now at 19 I have bad Phimosis. And in hindsight I really wish my parents got me circumcised.