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Stop Snitching! What the hell is "Urban Culture"?

siliconenhancedsiliconenhanced __BANNED USERS
edited August 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
For reference, I'm a Correctional Officer, and part of my job is to conduct shakedowns and open mail and generally make sure everything is kosher and going well. In performing my duties, I run across some puzzling things. Right now what's got me shaking my head and going "the fuck is this nonsense" are "urban drama" books and black men's magazines.

Here's some of the urban drama, for reference.

Married to the Game

The Naked Truth

Forever a Hustler's Wife

Every story seems to be the same. Good girl meets bad boy, gets turned bad, and bad things happen. Except its all glorified in the novels, and seems to be admired that she's going down "thug". And being "thug" is such a huge thing, and encompasses so much apparently. Ah, I'm going to act loud and be rude. Oh I was just keeping it thug. I'm going to punch someone in the back of the head and then ignore the consequences until its too late. Oh, that's just me keeping it thug.

I mean what the fuck. And the same thing with the magazines, King and Black Man off the top of my head. Its all about brothers in the lockup keeping it real, which rapper is the hardest motherfucker, and asking sexual questions to women. Not Maxim level questions, but shit like "which hole do you like it in most?" barely couched in double entente.

So what's all this about, other than some white dude not understand all this noise and funk? Well, for one, Philadelphia has had a spate of murders this year - the city is looking to be a the top of the list for most murders in a major city in a year. That's saying something, especially considering last time I looked no one wiped Cleveland, Detroit, or Baltimore off the map.

Police really haven't been able to find too many of the shooters (fun fact, one of the shooting that killed three people took place at an Easter rally to try and stop the violence) due to the entire "stop snitching" efffect where people refuse to come forward. Community leaders say that the police have to earn the community's trust, and that they're not to blame for the code of silence that people are acting under.

My question is where does fault begin and end with this entire cycle? On one hand, you seem to have a culture that glorifies "thug life" and begets tons of violence due, and yeah I know a lot of the gangster rappers are created by slick executive types (Fun facts! Little Jon's parents were engineers! Ja Rule grew up in a neighborhood where the houses started at 200k! The Yi Yi Twins' mother was a councilwoman, and their father an ad exec), but why the hell are people so eager to buy into this and then bitch about it when people start getting killed for reals?

And as much as it may sound like it, this isn't limited to just "black" culture. You're seeing it in white people, and you're seeing it in hispanics as well.

Tl;dr silicon bitches about kids and their goddamn oversized ball caps and bumpity bump music.

siliconenhanced on
«1345

Posts

  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2007
    Chavs in the UK are pretty similar, plus bad teeth. I dunno, people are shits?

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    On one hand, you seem to have a culture that glorifies "thug life" and begets tons of violence due, and yeah I know a lot of the gangster rappers are created by slick executive types (Fun facts! Little Jon's parents were engineers! Ja Rule grew up in a neighborhood where the houses started at 200k! The Yi Yi Twins' mother was a councilwoman, and their father an ad exec), but why the hell are people so eager to buy into this and then bitch about it when people start getting killed for reals?

    Well, yeah. "Don't do drugs" and "Stay in school" aren't messages that sell records, or books.

    As for why people buy into it... well, it's sexy, in a way. Thugs are the modern version of pirates - what young man wouldn't like to kick ass, be drunk or fucked up all day, never have to work a day in his life, never grow old (because he dies first), never be sick or weak, and have all the ladies want him?

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • siliconenhancedsiliconenhanced __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Chavs in the UK are pretty similar, plus bad teeth. I dunno, people are shits?

    Yeah, chavs are pretty fucking retarded too.

    I think the catalyst was when I was reading a feature on how to get with your bartender in King, and it had "talk to her politely instead of yelling "yo shawty! yo bitch get me a fuckin drink!" against "why not offer to do a bar shot?"

    They found me with blood leaking out my nose.
    Feral wrote:
    On one hand, you seem to have a culture that glorifies "thug life" and begets tons of violence due, and yeah I know a lot of the gangster rappers are created by slick executive types (Fun facts! Little Jon's parents were engineers! Ja Rule grew up in a neighborhood where the houses started at 200k! The Yi Yi Twins' mother was a councilwoman, and their father an ad exec), but why the hell are people so eager to buy into this and then bitch about it when people start getting killed for reals?

    Well, yeah. "Don't do drugs" and "Stay in school" aren't messages that sell records, or books.

    But why are these self same "community activists" in many cases ignoring that message so they can defend the gangsters and hoodlums who are going around shooting people? Why is it I read a book like Man on Fire and don't go blowing away mobsters, but some of these guys actually think they're going to style their life after some of the dramas in these urban fiction books? And shit like that isn't isolated!

    Maybe only stupid people end up in prison or something? I don't know.

    siliconenhanced on
  • GorgeeenGorgeeen __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    I used to be a Homicide Cop.


    Now I'm gonna lay things out pretty neatly here. A lot of the time the stuff you hear from these people are caused by insecurities and internal struggles. The problem is that it has become to easy to get fame in today's shrinking world. Information moves rapidly and reputations spread faster than wildfire now, and this pushes people to do more drastic things to constantly out do other people.


    It has escalated in years because we are in the middle of an Urban Cold War. Always trying to be the hardest motherfucker.

    I remember a rap song about a kid who wanted to be a gangster so he started selling drugs and killing people and then one day he and his bros were raped his own mother and when he found out from looking at her face he killed himself. They don't make songs like that anymore.

    Gorgeeen on
    No god damnit! The sheriff is a nig*Church Bells*r!!
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Pensies are "just kinda ugly" any way you slice it.

    Or don't slice it.
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    But why are these self same "community activists" in many cases ignoring that message so they can defend the gangsters and hoodlums who are going around shooting people?

    Random guess? They want to hold onto the myth that they're being victimized as a community.

    That's not to say that they're not disadvantaged. Obviously, they are. If you grow up in the ghetto, you're going to have a harder time being successful than somebody who was born in Chevy Chase. But it's still possible, you just have to work really fucking hard at it and make some difficult sacrifices. But some people don't want to admit that. They'd rather turn "It's partly society's fault my life sucks" into "it's totally society's fault my life sucks." Blaming external forces for somebody's actions lends support to that myth.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • siliconenhancedsiliconenhanced __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    Gorgeeen wrote: »

    It has escalated in years because we are in the middle of an Urban Cold War. Always trying to be the hardest motherfucker.

    That would explain it. Some of these people have no decision making processes. "Why did you attack that guy?" "I wanted to go out thug."
    But some people don't want to admit that. They'd rather turn "It's partly society's fault my life sucks" into "it's totally society's fault my life sucks." Blaming external forces for somebody's actions lends support to that myth.

    Agreed. There's a term I learned early on and I like to use called "you bought it", where if someone fucks up its on them. Also, I learned there's always someone holding them down. This C/O, the Department of Corrections, Medical, their P&P officer. I only hear "this is a prison" from the oldheads there who are just trying to do their time and get out. Its almost always the kids who are doing a two year or a year stint who want to buck the system, and get shocked when their ass gets reamed from both ends of said system.

    siliconenhanced on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Agreed. There's a term I learned early on and I like to use called "you bought it", where if someone fucks up its on them. Also, I learned there's always someone holding them down. This C/O, the Department of Corrections, Medical, their P&P officer. I only hear "this is a prison" from the oldheads there who are just trying to do their time and get out. Its almost always the kids who are doing a two year or a year stint who want to buck the system, and get shocked when their ass gets reamed from both ends of said system.

    The thing is that both are often true. You could be fucking up your own life while other people are keeping you down. One does not negate the other, and a lot of people tend to judge with heavy bias towards one side or the other.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • FalloutFallout GIRL'S DAY WAS PRETTY GOOD WHILE THEY LASTEDRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    It seems like virtually all of the youngish (i'm talking up to like 30+) Mexicans in my area (southern california) that are not migrant workers are into this gangster bullshit, whether they're actually in gangs or not (it's pretty easy to tell a homie from a poseur).

    One of my best friends is a black ex-Crip from LA and his main observation seems to be that they just romanticize it too goddamn much, which is pretty obvious actually. The names of their family members and dead homies tattooed on all of them in the same font, their gang's name tatted on the back of their shaved heads, tattoos of Jesus and Mary, shirts with Jesus holding a crying Mexican kid or Mary with a Spanish-style motif around them, etc. They take the whole thing way too seriously and seem to think they're tragic warriors when really they just steal beer and cars and shoot each other. It propogates itself because it's considered basically just the manly thing to do, to prove yourself to your family and shit, being a "real gangster" is the idealized manly badass path in life. It's insane how common the whole thing is among the latino population.

    Fallout on
    xcomsig.png
  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    Feral wrote: »
    Thugs are the modern version of pirates - what young man wouldn't like to kick ass, be drunk or fucked up all day, never have to work a day in his life, never grow old (because he dies first), never be sick or weak, and have all the ladies want him?

    :lol:

    It's society's being enamored with the "badboy" personality. Strength and confidence are sexy traits.

    ege02 on
    Medopine wrote: »
    Fuck that woman going "oh god oh no!!"

    It's nature, bitch
  • ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    Gorgeeen wrote: »
    It has escalated in years because we are in the middle of an Urban Cold War. Always trying to be the hardest motherfucker.

    My understanding was that urban crime has been at an all time low since we entered 21st century.

    ege02 on
    Medopine wrote: »
    Fuck that woman going "oh god oh no!!"

    It's nature, bitch
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx Spicy Rudolph Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    Gorgeeen wrote: »
    It has escalated in years because we are in the middle of an Urban Cold War. Always trying to be the hardest motherfucker.

    My understanding was that urban crime has been at an all time low since we entered 21st century.

    Hence the "Cold War" part.

    jungleroomx on
    Make. Time.
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    Gorgeeen wrote: »
    It has escalated in years because we are in the middle of an Urban Cold War. Always trying to be the hardest motherfucker.

    My understanding was that urban crime has been at an all time low since we entered 21st century.

    Crime is at a low, but we'd like it to be lower and it's not superficially obvious why a lot of it occurs i.e. we don't exactly have a lot of mothers with starving babies, usually the opposite. A lot of crime simply evaporated in the 1st world as living standards went up - the stuff that has remained is due to that comedic grab bag of difficult issues that remain.

    electricitylikesme on
  • yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Fallout wrote: »
    It seems like virtually all of the youngish (i'm talking up to like 30+) Mexicans in my area (southern california) that are not migrant workers are into this gangster bullshit, whether they're actually in gangs or not (it's pretty easy to tell a homie from a poseur).

    One of my best friends is a black ex-Crip from LA and his main observation seems to be that they just romanticize it too goddamn much, which is pretty obvious actually. The names of their family members and dead homies tattooed on all of them in the same font, their gang's name tatted on the back of their shaved heads, tattoos of Jesus and Mary, shirts with Jesus holding a crying Mexican kid or Mary with a Spanish-style motif around them, etc. They take the whole thing way too seriously and seem to think they're tragic warriors when really they just steal beer and cars and shoot each other. It propogates itself because it's considered basically just the manly thing to do, to prove yourself to your family and shit, being a "real gangster" is the idealized manly badass path in life. It's insane how common the whole thing is among the latino population.

    Well, one thing to consider is, you don't get a lot of people going INTO the ghetto and the "hood" and all those other terms and becoming a gang member. You get people who're BORN there doing all of it. It's a purely self-propogating issue a good chunk of the time. You grow up around it, you see it as more or less normal to shoot someone until they're dead for painting over your graffiti or making moves on your girl or what the fuck ever, and then you spawn some kids and they go through the same shit. Someone in the line gets out, suddenly their kids aren't out shooting people(aside from your crazies and snapped people and mistakes and such).

    Now, of course, I'm probably wrong about all of this, but still. I've got to wonder how much of it has a true 'reason' and how much of it is just what they're used to, so they don't try as hard to end it permanently as opposed to just living it and/or getting the fuck out.

    yalborap on
  • FalloutFallout GIRL'S DAY WAS PRETTY GOOD WHILE THEY LASTEDRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    You can be born into an area rife with the "culture", or move into one, or meet friends that get you into it, or any number of other things...

    Most that I know of don't try to get out because they embrace it as their lifestyle.

    Fallout on
    xcomsig.png
  • HKPacman420HKPacman420 Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Gorgeeen wrote: »

    I remember a rap song about a kid who wanted to be a gangster so he started selling drugs and killing people and then one day he and his bros were raped his own mother and when he found out from looking at her face he killed himself. They don't make songs like that anymore.



    Dancing with the Devil by Immortal Technique. They do make songs like that still, it's just that it's never mainstream (people would rather hear about 20 INCH SPINNAZ MANG).

    So Billy started robbing n****z, anything he could do
    He'd get his respect back, in the eyes of his crew
    Starting fights over little shit, up on the block
    Stepped up to selling mothers and brothers the crack rock
    Working overtime for making money for the crack spot
    Hit the jackpot and wanted to move up to cocaine
    For filling the scarface fantasy stuck in his brain
    Tired of the block n****z treating him the same
    He wanted to be major like the cut throats and the thugs
    But when he tried to step to 'em, n****z showed him no love
    They told him any motherfucking coward can sell drugs
    Any bitch n**** with a gun, can bust slugs
    Any n**** with a red shirt can front like a blood
    Even Puffy smoked the motherfucker up in a club
    But only a real thug can stab someone till they die
    Standing in front of them, starring straight into their eyes
    Billy realized that these men were well guarded
    And they wanted to test him, before business started
    Suggested raping a bitch to prove he was cold hearted
    So now he had a choice between going back to his life
    Or making money with made men, up in the cife
    His dreams about cars and ice, made him agree
    A hardcore n**** is all he ever wanted to be
    And so he met them friday night at a quarter to three

    HKPacman420 on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • QuazarQuazar Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Gorgeeen wrote: »

    I remember a rap song about a kid who wanted to be a gangster so he started selling drugs and killing people and then one day he and his bros were raped his own mother and when he found out from looking at her face he killed himself. They don't make songs like that anymore.



    Dancing with the Devil by Immortal Technique. They do make songs like that still, it's just that it's never mainstream (people would rather hear about 20 INCH SPINNAZ MANG).

    So Billy started robbing niggaz, anything he could do
    He'd get his respect back, in the eyes of his crew
    Starting fights over little shit, up on the block
    Stepped up to selling mothers and brothers the crack rock
    Working overtime for making money for the crack spot
    Hit the jackpot and wanted to move up to cocaine
    For filling the scarface fantasy stuck in his brain
    Tired of the block niggaz treating him the same
    He wanted to be major like the cut throats and the thugs
    But when he tried to step to 'em, niggaz showed him no love
    They told him any motherfucking coward can sell drugs
    Any bitch nigga with a gun, can bust slugs
    Any nigga with a red shirt can front like a blood
    Even Puffy smoked the motherfucker up in a club
    But only a real thug can stab someone till they die
    Standing in front of them, starring straight into their eyes
    Billy realized that these men were well guarded
    And they wanted to test him, before business started
    Suggested raping a bitch to prove he was cold hearted
    So now he had a choice between going back to his life
    Or making money with made men, up in the cife
    His dreams about cars and ice, made him agree
    A hardcore nigga is all he ever wanted to be
    And so he met them friday night at a quarter to three
    Immortal Technique is usually way too politically liberal for my tastes, but that song is brilliant. As is "Caught in a Hustle".

    Also, most of that SPINNAZ MANG music comes from my city, sorry about that. We have good rappers, too, I promise! (Andre3000 for one)

    But yeah, rap is splitting into mini-genres the same way rock did. Hopefully "Alternative rap" will grow in popularity. It's almost certain that the next decade isn't going to have all of this stupid pop-rap. It's just a bad musical trend like disco was. Something to dance to that sounds cool, but not something you're going to listen to on road trips with your family 15 years from now.

    Quazar on
    Your sig is too tall. -Thanatos
    atl7hahahazo7.png
    XBL: QuazarX
  • AhhseeAhhsee Registered User
    edited July 2007
    According to the interviews I remember reading with one of the "creators" of the "stop snitching" stuff, he said it had nothing to do with innocent bystanders coming forward to say what happened in situations. He said it was based on people getting arrested, then making deals based upon information he could provide on other people doing other things.

    Said he was sick of seeing murderers walk for giving out information on drug dealers or something.

    Maybe I understood it wrong. But, I have to really believe all the retards wearing stop snitching tshirts really have no clue wtf they stand for.

    Then again, maybe the original message was distorted, and now it's whatever the wearer wants it to mean.

    To the OP: Hope you at least have fun reading mail. I'm sure that's interesting to a point.

    Ahhsee on
    newsigji1.jpg
    Click image for my huge backlog :\\\
  • RohanRohan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    It's things like this that make me glad I live in Ireland. I mean, we have 'scobes, which are similar to chavs, but they're nowhere near as dangerous as they seem to be in America.

    Rohan on
    ...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.

    Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
  • siliconenhancedsiliconenhanced __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    öhsee wrote: »

    To the OP: Hope you at least have fun reading mail. I'm sure that's interesting to a point.

    You'd be amazed at some of the things people write. I think angry relationship letters are pretty fucking hilarious, but the one that took the cake was the one that went "my parents would kill me if they knew you were writing me!" followed by "so I wish you could have been there at my 18th birthday".

    The guy in question has to be pushing 35 or so.

    Anyway, I was getting my haircut by an ex-con who runs a barber shop down the street, and he really had nothing good to say about the people who try to embody the "gangster" lifestyle around us. Some kid (I use the term lightly for someone who's pushing 26) who he knew came in wearing at least $500 or so in clothing alone, with neck tats and the whole deal. Come to find out he's homeless and living with his girlfriend, who he's busy talking shit on because she's pissed off at him for flirting with a drunk woman in front of her store.

    Neither of us really had an answer for what drives people to do stupid shit like that, outside of "what a fucking retard". It just mystifies me how people can make these bad life choices and then defend them because of commercialization. Maybe because I have to see and deal with the end result of these bad choices, I don't know.

    And here's another question. Why do women put up with that shit, outside of the entire "women love a bad boy" reasoning?

    siliconenhanced on
  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Rohan wrote: »
    It's things like this that make me glad I live in Ireland. I mean, we have 'scobes, which are similar to chavs, but they're nowhere near as dangerous as they seem to be in America.

    See, but thats the funny thing.

    They aren't really dangerous.

    They want to give the apperance that they are hard, street, and whatnot. But in the end it's just some guy acting stupid. It only escalates when they're trying to one up each others thugness.

    Transporter on
  • LibrarianThorneLibrarianThorne Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I love this story.

    At my university a couple years ago, the exchange students were given cameras and told to photograph the things that most struck them about living in America. There were a couple interesting ones, like a kid from India talking about how weird it was to have homes next to a graveyard, but the one that sticks with me was a shot of a storefront with the eponymous "No Guns Allowed" sticker. The caption under it was "Why do Americans need this? Do people really bring guns into stores and restaurants here?"

    I think a large part of this is simply the rise of urban culture and the ease with which guns are associated with that. I don't want to turn this into a gun control thread, but I wonder how much the violence culture around urban culutre has affected the country as a whole.

    LibrarianThorne on
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I think the 'Don't Snitch' mentality is retarded. It starts in the videos and ends up resulting in people not cooperating when with the police when people in their own damn neighbordhood get hurt.

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    ege02 wrote: »
    Gorgeeen wrote: »
    It has escalated in years because we are in the middle of an Urban Cold War. Always trying to be the hardest motherfucker.

    My understanding was that urban crime has been at an all time low since we entered 21st century.

    Crime is at a low, but we'd like it to be lower and it's not superficially obvious why a lot of it occurs i.e. we don't exactly have a lot of mothers with starving babies, usually the opposite. A lot of crime simply evaporated in the 1st world as living standards went up - the stuff that has remained is due to that comedic grab bag of difficult issues that remain.

    Overall crime is declining, but certain instances of it or the areas where it is occurring still primarily effect the poor and disenfranchised that tend to join up with this bullshit. Chicago is the safest its been in decades, statistically, but there were around 30 deaths of high school kids in gang related shootings. Sadly a lot of them were innocent bystanders and generally not retarded.

    moniker on
  • MandaManda Registered User
    edited July 2007
    öhsee wrote: »
    And here's another question. Why do women put up with that shit, outside of the entire "women love a bad boy" reasoning?

    If you live in a culture that glorifies thug behavior, dating a thug would probably make you look like a badass. In general, women like to be proud of the men they date. What instills that pride, however, is pretty subjective (especially based on the culture you grew up in).

    I've also heard a lot of arguments (generally about Scientology) that say when people put a lot of energy into something they are more likely to believe that something good is going to come out of it. So basically convincing themselves that they didn't waste their time/money on something that wasn't worth it. Same thing goes with relationships, which is why you see a lot of people giving second chances to people who don't deserve them.

    Of course, I'm dating a white engineer, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

    Manda on
    What are you doing on these forums? You should be out using your keen intellect to fight crime.
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Manda wrote: »
    öhsee wrote: »
    And here's another question. Why do women put up with that shit, outside of the entire "women love a bad boy" reasoning?
    I've also heard a lot of arguments (generally about Scientology) that say when people put a lot of energy into something they are more likely to believe that something good is going to come out of it. So basically convincing themselves that they didn't waste their time/money on something that wasn't worth it. Same thing goes with relationships, which is why you see a lot of people giving second chances to people who don't deserve them.

    Off the top of my head I think that might be the social identity theory. It's like you go through an ordeal to reach a certain goal that you have for yourself and then you look back on the experience more favorably than it was and appreciate what you have more than if it was a cakewalk.

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • sanstodosanstodo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Malkor wrote: »
    Manda wrote: »
    öhsee wrote: »
    And here's another question. Why do women put up with that shit, outside of the entire "women love a bad boy" reasoning?
    I've also heard a lot of arguments (generally about Scientology) that say when people put a lot of energy into something they are more likely to believe that something good is going to come out of it. So basically convincing themselves that they didn't waste their time/money on something that wasn't worth it. Same thing goes with relationships, which is why you see a lot of people giving second chances to people who don't deserve them.

    Off the top of my head I think that might be the social identity theory. It's like you go through an ordeal to reach a certain goal that you have for yourself and then you look back on the experience more favorably than it was and appreciate what you have more than if it was a cakewalk.

    It's also why groups that encourage hazing and other initiation rituals (say, AD at Dartmouth that Animal house is based off of) tend to mean more to their members than ones that do not do such things.

    A college roommate of mine rushed a frat only because one of his friends wanted moral support; he didn't intend to join. However, after he went through about half of the rush period, he changed his mind and decided to pledge. He was a psych major and knew exactly what was happening. Regardless, it still worked and he ended up joining.

    sanstodo on
  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Fallout wrote: »
    It seems like virtually all of the youngish (i'm talking up to like 30+) Mexicans in my area (southern california) that are not migrant workers are into this gangster bullshit, whether they're actually in gangs or not (it's pretty easy to tell a homie from a poseur).

    One of my best friends is a black ex-Crip from LA and his main observation seems to be that they just romanticize it too goddamn much, which is pretty obvious actually. The names of their family members and dead homies tattooed on all of them in the same font, their gang's name tatted on the back of their shaved heads, tattoos of Jesus and Mary, shirts with Jesus holding a crying Mexican kid or Mary with a Spanish-style motif around them, etc. They take the whole thing way too seriously and seem to think they're tragic warriors when really they just steal beer and cars and shoot each other. It propogates itself because it's considered basically just the manly thing to do, to prove yourself to your family and shit, being a "real gangster" is the idealized manly badass path in life. It's insane how common the whole thing is among the latino population.


    I gotta agree with your observation - seeing as I'm from that same area and I've seen these same things. I want to partially blame 'Spanish Machismo', but I gotta wonder how correct that is . . . I do find it disturbing how ingrained the mentality sets into families, a fault that they seem to want to be passed down through the generations, thus instilling some morbid sense of 'honor' into the children to carry out through their lives.

    Time for some fun facts of my own:

    - the gangs of LA started sometime in the 40s; when deportation was a constant threat. It had nothing to do with drugs or money - the men would gather up for protection. They figured that if they stuck together in large groups, the cops wouldn't deport them. How do I know this? My neighbor is an old-school gangsta ...

    Muse Among Men on
  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited July 2007

    - the gangs of LA started sometime in the 40s; when deportation was a constant threat. It had nothing to do with drugs or money - the men would gather up for protection. They figured that if they stuck together in large groups, the cops wouldn't deport them. How do I know this? My neighbor is an old-school gangsta ...

    The impression I got was that this was partly the reason behind current gang culture as well: protection. Solidarity with a group of people and security in greater numbers. It does offer a safer haven sometimes than being on your own in gangland. At least, that's my take on it. Fear can drive people to seek security, even through bad means and worse people.

    subedii on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I'm sure the black gangs started much the same way with the constant threat of police harassment.

    The first step is healing the rifts between the mainstream culture and the minority neighborhoods. There's still tons of distrust between the black and latino communities and the government. It just fuels the badass rebel mystique the gangs get becasue they present themsevles as an anti-establishment role model.

    nexuscrawler on
  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    subedii wrote: »

    - the gangs of LA started sometime in the 40s; when deportation was a constant threat. It had nothing to do with drugs or money - the men would gather up for protection. They figured that if they stuck together in large groups, the cops wouldn't deport them. How do I know this? My neighbor is an old-school gangsta ...

    The impression I got was that this was partly the reason behind current gang culture as well: protection. Solidarity with a group of people and security in greater numbers. It does offer a safer haven sometimes than being on your own in gangland. At least, that's my take on it. Fear can drive people to seek security, even through bad means and worse people.

    At first the original gangs didn't really do anything illegal. Over time, the police were no longer such a source of fear and that was when the gangsters started breaking the law - My neighbor is a rather good source for such snippets of history, so I could prod around for more, but I couldn't do it with good concience. I know he moved away from the inner city to the Valley to start fresh, so it's sad to know other wont do the same, or move away and bring their past along with them.

    Muse Among Men on
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    subedii wrote: »

    - the gangs of LA started sometime in the 40s; when deportation was a constant threat. It had nothing to do with drugs or money - the men would gather up for protection. They figured that if they stuck together in large groups, the cops wouldn't deport them. How do I know this? My neighbor is an old-school gangsta ...

    The impression I got was that this was partly the reason behind current gang culture as well: protection. Solidarity with a group of people and security in greater numbers. It does offer a safer haven sometimes than being on your own in gangland. At least, that's my take on it. Fear can drive people to seek security, even through bad means and worse people.

    At first the original gangs didn't really do anything illegal. Over time, the police were no longer such a source of fear and that was when the gangsters started breaking the law - My neighbor is a rather good source for such snippets of history, so I could prod around for more, but I couldn't do it with good concience. I know he moved away from the inner city to the Valley to start fresh, so it's sad to know other wont do the same, or move away and bring their past along with them.

    Did he wear a zoot suit?

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I'm thinking he did. He's quite old by now. I never thought of him much till my mother told me about his escapades - driving with his buddies and riling up the police to engage them into car-chases, wherein they'd lose the heat by stirring up dust and losing them in the haze.

    So, he's been around since before a reasonable number of streets in LA were paved . . .

    (bear in mind, this was a story my mom had heard though his children, he's reluctant to bring it up.)

    Muse Among Men on
  • siliconenhancedsiliconenhanced __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    Manda wrote: »
    And here's another question. Why do women put up with that shit, outside of the entire "women love a bad boy" reasoning?

    If you live in a culture that glorifies thug behavior, dating a thug would probably make you look like a badass. In general, women like to be proud of the men they date. What instills that pride, however, is pretty subjective (especially based on the culture you grew up in).

    I've also heard a lot of arguments (generally about Scientology) that say when people put a lot of energy into something they are more likely to believe that something good is going to come out of it. So basically convincing themselves that they didn't waste their time/money on something that wasn't worth it. Same thing goes with relationships, which is why you see a lot of people giving second chances to people who don't deserve them.

    Of course, I'm dating a white engineer, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

    I like that explanation, actually, but man if in actuallity does it make any sense to me. I know other cultures are fast to turn women into commercialization objects, but I rarely see it translate over to real life with them. Why is this one so different?

    Re: Original Gangsters

    My two cents is that I know a dude who spent twenty years on drug charges in prison, and he's getting out soon enough. He is one of the most calming influences on that pod, and if I ever have a problem that's inmate related, its only because he didn't find out about it and put a stop to it.

    Not too many rap videos about jail, I've found, because the truth is pretty unglamorous if you buck against the system. You're going to get it from the screws, and you're going to get it from the old heads, and you might get your ass kicked by both sides if you keep up the foolishness.

    siliconenhanced on
  • MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Dancing with the Devil.

    Required listening. Sorry I'm a little late to the party.

    MikeMan on
    HOW DO YOU FUCK UP BAGELS. YOU BOIL THE WATER. PUT IN THE NOODLES
  • Matt!Matt! Registered User
    edited July 2007
    MikeMan wrote: »
    Dancing with the Devil.

    Required listening. Sorry I'm a little late to the party.

    I wonder if the story is really true? I mean I dont think Immortal Technique would make shit up just to sell records (he isnt signed to a label) but that is a crazy story.

    Matt! on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Matt! wrote: »
    MikeMan wrote: »
    Dancing with the Devil.

    Required listening. Sorry I'm a little late to the party.

    I wonder if the story is really true? I mean I dont think Immortal Technique would make shit up just to sell records (he isnt signed to a label) but that is a crazy story.

    It's always hard to tell with him. Basically, I'm not sure.

    MikeMan on
    HOW DO YOU FUCK UP BAGELS. YOU BOIL THE WATER. PUT IN THE NOODLES
  • LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I heard that song for the first time seeing him perform it at a concert.

    I was stoned and had to sit down after hearing it. All his fans loved it, but I was prolly visably shaken and horrified.


    Immortal came to me right after his set, like, right after jumping off stage and said some shit about these white kids not really understanding how serious shit is or something like that and gave me dap.


    I came there to see Brother Ali, ol' angry ass motherfucker.

    LRG on
  • hawkboxhawkbox Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Manda wrote: »
    Of course, I'm dating a white engineer, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

    Course you do realize that you arent ":Thug" and are siding with the Man right?

    I see something similar up here in Alberta, except replace Black and hispanic with Retard Redneck.

    The more violent and stupid you are the more respect you get.

    hawkbox on
  • MandaManda Registered User
    edited July 2007
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Manda wrote: »
    Of course, I'm dating a white engineer, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

    Course you do realize that you arent ":Thug" and are siding with the Man right?

    I see something similar up here in Alberta, except replace Black and hispanic with Retard Redneck.

    The more violent and stupid you are the more respect you get.

    Well, I'm a white engineer too. If I weren't a woman I would be The Man.

    t Silicone: Being considered attractive, especially to your boyfriend and his friends, is a very powerful feeling. If you buy into the hip-hop mentality, being an attractive woman essentially means exploiting yourself. That, and helping to maintain their boyfriends' thug lifestyle, can create a lot of pride that takes the place of self-respect.

    Manda on
    What are you doing on these forums? You should be out using your keen intellect to fight crime.
  • brandotheninjamasterbrandotheninjamaster Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Rohan wrote: »
    It's things like this that make me glad I live in Ireland. I mean, we have 'scobes, which are similar to chavs, but they're nowhere near as dangerous as they seem to be in America.

    You have no idea. I live in Baltimore and it is a scary place. I don't know how things are in Ireland, but I know here I will not tred one foot in the city unless I absolutely have too. I say this from experience not from what I hear about. I had a job at a grocery store just in the city. I worked there for about 6 months. In that time I was almost car-jacked twice and threatened almost every day. On my lunch break I would go to a subway and order my sandwiches through bullet-proof glass and get them through a round about. I also have friends with similar stories to tell. When I finally make a name for myself the first thing that I am going to do is move my family as far away from the city as I can afford...I don't think anyone wants to say that about the place where they grew up and where their family is.

    brandotheninjamaster on
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