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Stop Snitching! What the hell is "Urban Culture"?

124

Posts

  • Original RufusOriginal Rufus Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Elkamil wrote: »
    I'm really tired of culture; it seems to be the primary fall back of people who don't understand economics.

    You don't see in what way culture may impact economics?

    Particularly if you want to fold education in there too.

    Original Rufus on
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    Elkamil wrote: »
    I'm really tired of culture; it seems to be the primary fall back of people who don't understand economics.

    You don't see in what way culture may impact economics?

    Particularly if you want to fold education in there too.

    He said nothing to that effect.

    ViolentChemistry on
    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    'Chavs' (a word I hate) have been mentioned here, and from what you guys are saying, the 'thug' types you're talking about in the US are similar.

    How do I know? Because I kind of am a Chav. I'm white trash with an education and some smarts. And I can see how others have been kept down, and have kept themselves down.

    I was lucky enough that my parents didn't tell me 'you can't go to university' or 'you can't do anything with your life' or 'don't get ideas above your station'. Instead they let me go wild in the public library and encouraged me as much as possible. I'm also lucky in that I went to a grammar school (back in the old days when state education was streamed into different schools). But everyone around me was telling me to be 'true to my class'. I didn't listen, partly coz of my parents, and partly because I'm contrary.

    Others around me - not so lucky. One of my best mates, who is a very clever bloke (writes comics and some of the Dr Who audio adventures now), went to the local secondary school and was told straight out he couldn't go to university. He went two years after leaving school, when he was free of the straightjacket of English education. Kids on my estate are all dealers, criminals or just working hard at shitty jobs. I used to get in fights on the estate for getting above myself, and then fights at school for being a 'prole', 'pleb' or just plain 'common' - but I have a degree now, a good education, and have been able to emigrate fairly successfully.

    But this thread makes me think of my cousins, and how angry my mum got when my uncle said 'I wish my sons had the chance to go to university like yours.' He really thought his kids couldn't go to university because they were working class - he never even considered it.



    @Feral and Elkamil: As you know, culture and economics are utterly intertwined. For example, working class people are often scared of taking on debts (i.e. those incurred by tertiary education). This is partly economic - it can be hard to pay them back, and parents cannot help financially. It's also partly cultural - it just feels weird for me to borrow money for anything I don't need - my whole childhood we were borrowing money all the time just to eat.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • LibrarianThorneLibrarianThorne Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I love this story.

    At my university a couple years ago, the exchange students were given cameras and told to photograph the things that most struck them about living in America. There were a couple interesting ones, like a kid from India talking about how weird it was to have homes next to a graveyard, but the one that sticks with me was a shot of a storefront with the eponymous "No Guns Allowed" sticker. The caption under it was "Why do Americans need this? Do people really bring guns into stores and restaurants here?"

    I think a large part of this is simply the rise of urban culture and the ease with which guns are associated with that. I don't want to turn this into a gun control thread, but I wonder how much the violence culture around urban culutre has affected the country as a whole.

    You should probably look in the other direction as well. The culture of violence that is associated with "urban" culture isn't really new or exclusive to that culture. The bad ass dude poppin' caps and kicking the shit out of people and bedding tons of women has been a popular archetype for quite a while in this country. It only makes sense that it would show up in cultures where being hardened and not taking any shit is the ideal.

    True. I can really see that. Look how glorified action stars and their roles are. heck, you even see that personified in James Bond movies, though those aren't usually associated with urban culture.

    Man, this is why I love this forum. You guys get me thinking in ways I'd not considered before.

    LibrarianThorne on
  • ZonkytonkmanZonkytonkman Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Gorgeeen wrote: »
    I remember a rap song about a kid who wanted to be a gangster so he started selling drugs and killing people and then one day he and his bros were raped his own mother and when he found out from looking at her face he killed himself. They don't make songs like that anymore.


    Immortal Technique "Dance With the Devil"

    I LOVE that guy. He's still making songs, and it's always been about encouraging people to become politically aware of their actions, and the injustices suffered by others around the world. He's a cool guy. You should buy some of his stuff.

    Zonkytonkman on
    Sig is too tall - Elki
    walnutmon wrote: »
    Seta 3000 wrote: »
    so walnutmon, have you told your girlfriend that you'll hit her if she leaves you
    Actually yes. She doesn't care, because she knows i'm kidding. But i'm not, i'll kick her right in the vagina. By the way, I got jailed for posting about an emulator I use, because I didn't think that was bad. It has very little to do with the fact that I want to beat women.
  • MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Gorgeeen wrote: »
    I remember a rap song about a kid who wanted to be a gangster so he started selling drugs and killing people and then one day he and his bros were raped his own mother and when he found out from looking at her face he killed himself. They don't make songs like that anymore.


    Immortal Technique "Dance With the Devil"

    I LOVE that guy. He's still making songs, and it's always been about encouraging people to become politically aware of their actions, and the injustices suffered by others around the world. He's a cool guy. You should buy some of his stuff.

    Last page. :P

    But yes, Immortal Technique is amazing.

    MikeMan on
    HOW DO YOU FUCK UP BAGELS. YOU BOIL THE WATER. PUT IN THE NOODLES
  • LibrarianThorneLibrarianThorne Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Also, the "get spinners" idea seems very similiar to alot of stupid fads outside the inner city, but the smart kids ignore those anyway and goes with the doctor. So I guess a part of it is just getting kids focused on school... which starts with the parents, who don't care. Darnit, I thought I had something.

    Dude, no joke, my middle age-crisis suffering uncle debated getting spinners on his recently purchased sports car.

    Affluent white people with spinners should be shot. Not fatally, just somewhere inconvenient, like the kneecap.

    LibrarianThorne on
  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Why?

    Spinners are a sign of money.

    People with money want signs that they have money.

    I AM FAILING TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE

    It's silly, yes, but also understandable.

    Jinnigan on
    whatifihadnofriendsshortenedsiggy2.jpg
  • ZonkytonkmanZonkytonkman Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    MikeMan wrote: »
    Gorgeeen wrote: »
    I remember a rap song about a kid who wanted to be a gangster so he started selling drugs and killing people and then one day he and his bros were raped his own mother and when he found out from looking at her face he killed himself. They don't make songs like that anymore.


    Immortal Technique "Dance With the Devil"

    I LOVE that guy. He's still making songs, and it's always been about encouraging people to become politically aware of their actions, and the injustices suffered by others around the world. He's a cool guy. You should buy some of his stuff.

    Last page. :P

    But yes, Immortal Technique is amazing.

    haha, and first and third pages.

    What was that song about the woman that he loved dying while he was in jail? Shit I love that song.

    Zonkytonkman on
    Sig is too tall - Elki
    walnutmon wrote: »
    Seta 3000 wrote: »
    so walnutmon, have you told your girlfriend that you'll hit her if she leaves you
    Actually yes. She doesn't care, because she knows i'm kidding. But i'm not, i'll kick her right in the vagina. By the way, I got jailed for posting about an emulator I use, because I didn't think that was bad. It has very little to do with the fact that I want to beat women.
  • MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    MikeMan wrote: »
    Gorgeeen wrote: »
    I remember a rap song about a kid who wanted to be a gangster so he started selling drugs and killing people and then one day he and his bros were raped his own mother and when he found out from looking at her face he killed himself. They don't make songs like that anymore.


    Immortal Technique "Dance With the Devil"

    I LOVE that guy. He's still making songs, and it's always been about encouraging people to become politically aware of their actions, and the injustices suffered by others around the world. He's a cool guy. You should buy some of his stuff.

    Last page. :P

    But yes, Immortal Technique is amazing.

    haha, and first and third pages.

    What was that song about the woman that he loved dying while he was in jail? Shit I love that song.

    "You Never Know" off Rev. vol 2, I believe. If it's the one I'm thinking of.

    MikeMan on
    HOW DO YOU FUCK UP BAGELS. YOU BOIL THE WATER. PUT IN THE NOODLES
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Why?

    Spinners are a sign of money.

    People with money want signs that they have money.

    I AM FAILING TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE

    It's silly, yes, but also understandable.

    Because affluence used to mean being elegant and urbane, not gaudy and kitsch.

    moniker on
  • MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    moniker wrote: »
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Why?

    Spinners are a sign of money.

    People with money want signs that they have money.

    I AM FAILING TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE

    It's silly, yes, but also understandable.

    Because affluence used to mean being elegant and urbane, not gaudy and kitsch.

    Affluence always has meant showing oneself off. From unnecessary jewelry to the emperors of Rome with their palaces and thousands of servants, being wealthy has gone hand in hand with the desire to show off that wealth.

    People like Warren Buffett are the exception.

    MikeMan on
    HOW DO YOU FUCK UP BAGELS. YOU BOIL THE WATER. PUT IN THE NOODLES
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    So essentially mandate some after school programs where we focus on social development as opposed to athletic development that sports does or the intellectual development that classroom learning does.

    Actually, thats a neat observation, we teach our children to think critically and how to learn through school. We encourage healthy lifestyles and competition through sports and fitness programs.
    But for the life of me I cant name any courses that really focus on social interactions and impacts of different lifestyle choices.

    Of course any teaching can always be undone by little Johnny or Susy going home to share what they learned with Mom & Dad, who then prompty re-indoctrinate them into their supposed "proper place".


    Also, in regards to how woman are better spenders / more financially responsible than men. That is just a stereotype, and a false one at that.
    Woman are known just as much for credit card debt etc as any man is. Not more so or less.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
    steam_sig.png
    MWO: Adamski
  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    MikeMan wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Why?

    Spinners are a sign of money.

    People with money want signs that they have money.

    I AM FAILING TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE

    It's silly, yes, but also understandable.

    Because affluence used to mean being elegant and urbane, not gaudy and kitsch.

    Affluence always has meant showing oneself off. From unnecessary jewelry to the emperors of Rome with their palaces and thousands of servants, being wealthy has gone hand in hand with the desire to show off that wealth.

    People like Warren Buffett are the exception.

    That still doesn't mean that they shouldn't be shot, though.

    jothki on
  • RaggaholicRaggaholic Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Why?

    Spinners are a sign of money.

    People with money want signs that they have money.

    I AM FAILING TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE
    Are Spinners a sign of money? Possibly. Do people with money want to show off how much they have? Possibly. Is the uncle considering spinners because they show off his money? No. He's considering spinners because that's what "the cool kids" are doing and he wants to be considered cool. Of course, this is all sight unseen and not knowing the uncle, but I'd be willing to be on my scenario.

    Also, a major problem within urban culture is the wanted perception of money. That's why you have the poorest of people spending their money unwisely on status symbols and not being able to actually attain the true status. Ever seen a business that rents rims on a weekly basis? I have. Why would someone want to do that? Depreciation worries? No, they do it because they can't afford the rims but want people to believe that they can. It's why "urban culture" has an large amount of purchasing power but no wealth to speak of.

    Raggaholic on
    Feral wrote:
    Hell just froze over, because I just agreed with everything Raggaholic said in post about sex.
  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Gorgeeen wrote: »
    I used to be a Homicide Cop.

    I remember a rap song about a kid who wanted to be a gangster so he started selling drugs and killing people and then one day he and his bros were raped his own mother and when he found out from looking at her face he killed himself. They don't make songs like that anymore.


    It's an Immortal Technique song called Dance With the Devil off his Album Revolutionary Vol 1.0

    EDIT:

    Moving this to a new post so it doesn't get overlooked completely.

    valiance on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Why?

    Spinners are a sign of money.

    People with money want signs that they have money.

    I AM FAILING TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE

    It's silly, yes, but also understandable.

    I take it you've never listened to Chris Rock. He's sort of pointed out the problem.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Why?

    Spinners are a sign of money.

    People with money want signs that they have money.

    I AM FAILING TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE
    Are Spinners a sign of money? Possibly. Do people with money want to show off how much they have? Possibly. Is the uncle considering spinners because they show off his money? No. He's considering spinners because that's what "the cool kids" are doing and he wants to be considered cool. Of course, this is all sight unseen and not knowing the uncle, but I'd be willing to be on my scenario.

    Also, a major problem within urban culture is the wanted perception of money. That's why you have the poorest of people spending their money unwisely on status symbols and not being able to actually attain the true status. Ever seen a business that rents rims on a weekly basis? I have. Why would someone want to do that? Depreciation worries? No, they do it because they can't afford the rims but want people to believe that they can. It's why "urban culture" has an large amount of purchasing power but no wealth to speak of.


    I see so much of that here; it's ridiculous and even I give in and splurge on something I know I shouldnt. I'm not sure why I have that $100 jacket anymore ... the conditions to wear it dont come by often enough . . .

    Muse Among Men on
  • brandotheninjamasterbrandotheninjamaster Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Why?

    Spinners are a sign of money.

    People with money want signs that they have money.

    I AM FAILING TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE
    Are Spinners a sign of money? Possibly. Do people with money want to show off how much they have? Possibly. Is the uncle considering spinners because they show off his money? No. He's considering spinners because that's what "the cool kids" are doing and he wants to be considered cool. Of course, this is all sight unseen and not knowing the uncle, but I'd be willing to be on my scenario.

    Also, a major problem within urban culture is the wanted perception of money. That's why you have the poorest of people spending their money unwisely on status symbols and not being able to actually attain the true status. Ever seen a business that rents rims on a weekly basis? I have. Why would someone want to do that? Depreciation worries? No, they do it because they can't afford the rims but want people to believe that they can. It's why "urban culture" has an large amount of purchasing power but no wealth to speak of.

    I completely agree with ur statement. I just wonder if anything will be done about it? Even before that where to begin?

    brandotheninjamaster on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Ragg, one thing I think you gloss over is that we're not that far removed from when "acting white" could get a black person killed. Look at what's happening down in LA, for one.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • siliconenhancedsiliconenhanced __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Why?

    Spinners are a sign of money.

    People with money want signs that they have money.

    I AM FAILING TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE

    It's silly, yes, but also understandable.

    Because people are making bad life choices in order to afford these spinners that they're told you have to have if you want to be anyone in life.

    siliconenhanced on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Ragg, one thing I think you gloss over is that we're not that far removed from when "acting white" could get a black person killed. Look at what's happening down in LA, for one.

    Trouble is it's hard ot tell if said bacl person would suffer more reprisals from white people or other black people. In inner cities "acting white" is about the worst thing a person can do.

    Sadly the stereotype has grown to incude getting a job, going to college and being responsible.

    nexuscrawler on
  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    OK after reading past the post I responded to, I realize I'd been beaten to the above statement about a million times. So I've got more to add:
    Elkamil wrote: »
    I'm really tired of culture; it seems to be the primary fall back of people who don't understand economics.

    What do you mean here? I for one think culture is a huge determinant of why people fail or succeed (see the article Djinn posted for example, though I can't vouch for its intellectual rigor). Perhaps more importantly, culture determines how we define failure and success. As The Cat said:
    The Cat wrote: »
    That said, I don't think the middle-class suburban lifestyle most people here hold as the right and proper default way to be is in fact that great. In fact, I think middle class suburbanites are every bit as limited - they just express their idiocy through more subtle means. And I don't think for a minute that people on the outside of that culture can't see that. They aren't going to change if the ideal alternative offered to them is wage slavery, the picket-fence and SUV.
    What I think we're all saying here is that the urban culture glorifies choices which we think are immoral/normatively wrong/ less than ideal/patently destructive.


    To build on what The Cat said here:
    The Cat wrote: »
    What feral and Shinto said.

    Yosemite, this isn't about race. The local equivalent of what the others described are just about all white here, with a few pockets of second-generation asian and middle-eastern immigrant kids, and not disadvantaged in the least. I went to school with them. They're just assy people. Not everyone is a diamond in the rough. And yeah, the tendency for that culture to emerge is minimised by lending better opportunities - the local idiot brigade look like a pack of saints next to groups in other countries, probably largely due to the factors Shinto mentioned. But that doesn't mean I can't look at the individuals making up these subcultures and make the call that yes, they're deliberate, self-limiting morons and it would take a huge amount of one-on-one work to convince them there's a better way to live.

    On the one hand, I agree that this really isn't about race. The urban thug culture has its representatives in cultures worldwide. Just because it's endemic to American Blacks doesn't make it a "Black culture" (in fact I argue that it is this false identification of Black = urban thug which makes American urban thug culture uniquely crippling to Black Americans) See Sowell's Black Rednecks and White Liberals for an interesting discussion of how the ancestors of our modern "Black urban culture" may have come from the Scotch-Irish. I actually don't endorse Sowell's theory, I know too little about the subject to say either way, but regardless of the veracity of his ideas, it is evident that Black Culture != urban culture. As just one example, (Black) African immigrants may be the best educated immigrant group in the US: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/03/black_immigrants_an_invisible.html This rails very strongly against the anti-intellectualism of urban thug culture (and the racism of American culture) which equates being educated to being white.

    On the other hand, to deny the connection between urban culture and the Blacks who both perpetuate it AND are victims of it, would be disingenuous. Though urban thug cultures are associated with certain groups of people (not necessarily racial/ethnic groups), in the US this culture happens to be embraced by Black people. I suspect that all African American culture--including urban thug culture--has been molded around the systematic racial abuse, discrimination, and disenfranchisement Black people suffered until maybe 50 years ago here in America. The anti-intellectualism and crippling self doubt that is a result of that abuse is still a huge part of urban thug culture. Maybe all urban thug cultures are a result of disenfranchisment and systemic abuse, but I suspect that because the abuse here in the US was largely of a racial nature, urban thug culture clings disproportionately to African Americans and is to some extent tied in with their racial identity. To wit, an African American of non-urban thug extraction, but who identifies with African American culture, still suffers collateral damage from the association between urban thug culture and African Americans. "White culture" as a whole condemns urban thug culture, but for American Blacks, urban thug culture has seemed to become the dominant ethos. The fallacious connection between being an American Black and being part of urban thug culture is the uniquely crippling element of urban thug culture on Black Americans.

    As a side note:
    When comparing minority achievement (to other minorities or the majority ethnic group) we can't forget the unique experience of American slavery and its role in shaping African American culture.

    tl;dr: there is a racial component to urban thug culture in Black America despite the fact that it has analogues throughout world history in all ethnicities

    valiance on
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited July 2007
    No seriously, I was being facetious but Baltimore could use a going over with a fine-toothed comb (made of napalm)
    Baltimore's inner harbor is pretty nice now, even though it was a stinking hood a few years ago. Ditto DuPont Circle, Georgetown, Adams Morgan and Eastern Market in DC. Ditto East Cambridge, Jamaica Plains, Mattapan and the North End in Boston. Or hell, Brooklyn Heights and most of Manhattan.

    Urban areas have, in general, been improving at a pretty decent clip over the past decade or so.

    Irond Will on
    Wqdwp8l.png
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Irond Will wrote: »
    No seriously, I was being facetious but Baltimore could use a going over with a fine-toothed comb (made of napalm)
    Baltimore's inner harbor is pretty nice now, even though it was a stinking hood a few years ago. Ditto DuPont Circle, Georgetown, Adams Morgan and Eastern Market in DC. Ditto East Cambridge, Jamaica Plains, Mattapan and the North End in Boston. Or hell, Brooklyn Heights and most of Manhattan.

    Urban areas have, in general, been improving at a pretty decent clip over the past decade or so.

    I think Camden Yards might be my favorite ballpark. There's alot of development going on there with awesome overpriced condos that overlook the water. The same things happening in Bridgeport, CT. Bridgeport is a hole, but there's been some commercial and residential investment. It could go either way at this point though.

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • brandotheninjamasterbrandotheninjamaster Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Malkor wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    No seriously, I was being facetious but Baltimore could use a going over with a fine-toothed comb (made of napalm)
    Baltimore's inner harbor is pretty nice now, even though it was a stinking hood a few years ago. Ditto DuPont Circle, Georgetown, Adams Morgan and Eastern Market in DC. Ditto East Cambridge, Jamaica Plains, Mattapan and the North End in Boston. Or hell, Brooklyn Heights and most of Manhattan.

    Urban areas have, in general, been improving at a pretty decent clip over the past decade or so.

    I think Camden Yards might be my favorite ballpark. There's alot of development going on there with awesome overpriced condos that overlook the water. The same things happening in Bridgeport, CT. Bridgeport is a hole, but there's been some commercial and residential investment. It could go either way at this point though.

    The "nice" places in Baltimore are really nice like you the inner harbor and Camden yards. But its the places around there thats bad. For example Baltimore street (baltimore's mecca for porn/strip clubs/prostitutes) is just a stones throw away. and the areas around Johns Hopkins Hospital are just abysmal and I don't say that lightly. The city is improving in areas but also depreciating even more in others imo.

    brandotheninjamaster on
  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Why?

    Spinners are a sign of money.

    People with money want signs that they have money.

    I AM FAILING TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE

    It's silly, yes, but also understandable.

    Because people are making bad life choices in order to afford these spinners that they're told you have to have if you want to be anyone in life.

    Who's telling them this? Where does that message come from?

    Jinnigan on
    whatifihadnofriendsshortenedsiggy2.jpg
  • geckahngeckahn Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Why?

    Spinners are a sign of money.

    People with money want signs that they have money.

    I AM FAILING TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE

    It's silly, yes, but also understandable.

    Because people are making bad life choices in order to afford these spinners that they're told you have to have if you want to be anyone in life.

    Who's telling them this? Where does that message come from?

    rappers. Bling Bling, bitch. I got 22's on my caddy.

    geckahn on
  • hambonehambone Registered User
    edited July 2007
    moniker wrote: »
    Because affluence used to mean being elegant and urbane, not gaudy and kitsch.

    zoot suits.

    hambone on
    Just a bunch of intoxicated pigeons.
  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Why did men stop wearing them? Zoot suits are sexy.

    Muse Among Men on
  • ZalbinionZalbinion Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Jinnigan wrote: »
    Why?

    Spinners are a sign of money.

    People with money want signs that they have money.

    I AM FAILING TO SEE THE PROBLEM HERE

    It's silly, yes, but also understandable.

    Because people are making bad life choices in order to afford these spinners that they're told you have to have if you want to be anyone in life.

    Who's telling them this? Where does that message come from?

    If you live in a heavily urban area, that message comes from everywhere: tv, print media, music; everyone (it seems) in your neighborhood has a giant cadillac or hummer or other giant gas-guzzling car with huge rims.

    Zalbinion on
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited July 2007
    Zalbinion wrote: »
    If you live in a heavily urban area, that message comes from everywhere: tv, print media, music; everyone (it seems) in your neighborhood has a giant cadillac or hummer or other giant gas-guzzling car with huge rims.
    Not so much in the more middle-affluent urban areas. For some reason, absurd and flashy "prestige" consumer goods seem to target the very rich and the poor. I think most people realize that they'd look like a douche running around in the city in $500 clothes and a gold-trimmed upscale SUV with spinnaz.

    Irond Will on
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Zalbinion wrote: »
    If you live in a heavily urban area, that message comes from everywhere: tv, print media, music; everyone (it seems) in your neighborhood has a giant cadillac or hummer or other giant gas-guzzling car with huge rims.
    Not so much in the more middle-affluent urban areas. For some reason, absurd and flashy "prestige" consumer goods seem to target the very rich and the poor. I think most people realize that they'd look like a douche running around in the city in $500 clothes and a gold-trimmed upscale SUV with spinnaz.

    One word - iPhone.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Zalbinion wrote: »
    If you live in a heavily urban area, that message comes from everywhere: tv, print media, music; everyone (it seems) in your neighborhood has a giant cadillac or hummer or other giant gas-guzzling car with huge rims.
    Not so much in the more middle-affluent urban areas. For some reason, absurd and flashy "prestige" consumer goods seem to target the very rich and the poor. I think most people realize that they'd look like a douche running around in the city in $500 clothes and a gold-trimmed upscale SUV with spinnaz.

    By "Upscale SUV" you mean "Maxed out Cadillac Escalade."
    Also, this seems to draw parallels to the report on how the worlds poor spend their money poorly. I guess that might be true regardless of what counts as poor in your society.

    Picardathon on
  • RaggaholicRaggaholic Registered User
    edited July 2007
    I completely agree with ur statement. I just wonder if anything will be done about it? Even before that where to begin?
    Changing this would be like trying to change the flow of the Mississippi River. It's not impossible, but damn, what would have to be done to make it happen makes it highly improbable.

    The thing that could do it on a massive scale would be the media (ie. stop making consumerism so appealing, as it specifically has been done to inner city youth). That would never happen though, as the "media" has a vested interest in keeping urban culture full of consumerism. Even that's an oversimplification for how major the problem is.
    Ragg, one thing I think you gloss over is that we're not that far removed from when "acting white" could get a black person killed. Look at what's happening down in LA, for one.

    Trouble is it's hard ot tell if said bacl person would suffer more reprisals from white people or other black people. In inner cities "acting white" is about the worst thing a person can do.

    Sadly the stereotype has grown to incude getting a job, going to college and being responsible.
    Although I can't specifically comment on anything that happened with an incident in LA, I can say that far more reprisals will come from the urban community for "acting white" than from the suburban community. Since the urban community will more than likely be the peer group, and with little parental involvement, the opinion of the peer group means far more (see also, every gang special ever made).
    valiance wrote:
    Culture != urban culture. As just one example, (Black) African immigrants may be the best educated immigrant group in the US: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...invisible.html This rails very strongly against the anti-intellectualism of urban thug culture (and the racism of American culture) which equates being educated to being white.
    I would agree with most of what you said, but I have to point this out. African immigrants and Blacks do not share a common culture. In fact, their cultures are so different that each group takes offense to being associated with the other. Seriously.

    Man, I have so much to say about this topic it's unreal.

    Raggaholic on
    Feral wrote:
    Hell just froze over, because I just agreed with everything Raggaholic said in post about sex.
  • ZalbinionZalbinion Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    Man, I have so much to say about this topic it's unreal.

    [non-snarky] I'd love to hear what you have to say. Where do you live? I've been in Philadelphia for about a year now, and as a white male with Philly as my first experience living in a major urban center, I've noticed lots of class and race things going on in the community, but there's a lot to process.

    Zalbinion on
  • JinniganJinnigan Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Yeah, Philly's my first city, so I don't know about other cities, but it's pretty insane how you can go from classy UPENN to the bowels of West Philly in, like, 4 blocks.

    Jinnigan on
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  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Raggaholic wrote: »
    I would agree with most of what you said, but I have to point this out. African immigrants and Blacks do not share a common culture. In fact, their cultures are so different that each group takes offense to being associated with the other. Seriously.

    Oh that was my point. The cultures are totally different, but the two peoples are ostensibly the same race. so urban gang culture is therefore (with the caveats discussed earlier) a culture thing not a race thing.

    I knew this worked one way, but African Americans take insult to being associated with Africans? What happened to the days of Afrocentrism and the Black Star line and nubian goddesses and whatnot? I mean I guess its an understandable reaction, noone wants to be mistakenly identified as part of a culture they're not actually a member of. But on the other hand there was a time Black Americans looked to Africa for inspiration and some sense of hope. I guess its the other way now with kids in Africa emulating American gangbangers (bad), getting into hip hop (good) and generally being more African American as American culture becomes more ubiquitous.

    Personal note: My dad's an (Black) African Immigrant and my mom is from the Carribean, but I was born here so I'm American. I'm African American in more ways than one.

    Raggaholic wrote: »

    Man, I have so much to say about this topic it's unreal.

    Likewise. Keep it coming. Good stuff so far. I need to vent about this stuff every once in a while. :P

    EDITed: for quote tag shenannigans

    valiance on
  • Psycho Internet HawkPsycho Internet Hawk Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    valiance wrote: »
    I knew this worked one way, but African Americans take insult to being associated with Africans? What happened to the days of Afrocentrism and the Black Star line and nubian goddesses and whatnot? I mean I guess its an understandable reaction, noone wants to be mistakenly identified as part of a culture they're not actually a member of. But on the other hand there was a time Black Americans looked to Africa for inspiration and some sense of hope. I guess its the other way now with kids in Africa emulating American gangbangers (bad), getting into hip hop (good) and generally being more African American as American culture becomes more ubiquitous.

    It doesn't always seem like it from the outside, but several hundred years of oppression suffered at the hands of whites does account for much of "thug" culture. This was also true of Afrocentrism, except the oppression being focused on was inevitably that of Africans and first-generation slaves, which at this point in time doesn't really feel relevent anymore. Thug culture is a bit more realistic in that at some level it focuses on the social and economic oppression still looming, albeit no longer officially, over minority communities.

    I'd also be willing to be Afrocentrism was made as equally as retarded and irrelevent as thug culture is today by a lot of asshats, just not by people of other races obviously.

    Psycho Internet Hawk on
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  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited July 2007
    It doesn't always seem like it from the outside, but several hundred years of oppression suffered at the hands of whites does account for much of "thug" culture. This was also true of Afrocentrism, except the oppression being focused on was inevitably that of Africans and first-generation slaves, which at this point in time doesn't really feel relevent anymore. Thug culture is a bit more realistic in that at some level it focuses on the social and economic oppression still looming, albeit no longer officially, over minority communities.
    It's basically economic class issues dressed up as race issues, with the added complexity of culture wars aside historical social race issues poisoning dialogue and attitudes and muddling clarity.

    It's worth pointing out that America generally dislikes immigrants, especially those who are not white. The entire nation and especially the southwest are tearing out their hair in rage because of the influx of Mexican and South American immigrants.

    And even with this general anti-immigrant stance, white america is much more tolerant and accepting of recent African immigrants than African-Americans. Most white people would find it rude to make fun of accented pidgin English or a daishiki sported by a Nigerian immigrant. But break out some baggy pants and "ax a question" and many white peoples' eyes will go all googly.

    Irond Will on
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