The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Is dangerous "volunteer" work worth the risk?
krapst78
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
One of the big news stories in Korea right now is the kidnapping of 23 South Korean "volunteers" in Afghanistan by the Taliban. When I first heard this story I was a little disturbed because it brings Korea's participation in the War on "Terror" to the forefront (although the hostages are not part of the military, one of the original demands of the Taliban was the removal of Korean military forces from Afghanistan). I don't really fear suicide bombings going off in Seoul anytime soon but this type of press makes me feel that we may be heading into the crossfire. What makes this even more upsetting is that Korea may face retaliation for the actions of a minority group who displayed an arrogant disregard for authority and a complete lack of understanding and common sense.
A majority of the Korean population do not practice a religion. Most people here follow Neo-Confucius traditions (which causes a whole separate set of headaches), but they don't really consider themselves as followers of a religion. Buddha's birthday gets the same number of days off as Christmas here. However, there has been a recent trend of heavy proselytizing by the evangelical Christians here and it is spreading fairly rapidly.
The 23 people kidnapped in Afghanistan traveled as a volunteer group from the Sammeul Church in Bundang, Korea (a relatively high class suburb of Seoul). The church has repeatedly stated that they were there only for a medical mission and not to evangelize. It isn't clear that they sent any people of medical relevance, however it is clear that one of the members of the entourage was a pastor. One of the Taliban spokesperson justified the kidnapping (not that this type of thing can ever be justified) by outright stating that the group was there doing missionary work which is prohibited by the regional laws. Recent reports have stated that the group had actually visited one of the important mosques in Afghanistan and started singing Christian hymns. If these actions are indeed true, then the statements by the Church denying any proselytizing seem dishonest.
It has been speculated that the real reason these people are sent on these missions is to improve the status of their church in a competition for religious zeal. Many times people come back from these trips with videos and photos as proof of their devoutness and to place on their church website to attract more converts. The religious reputation generally translates to more prestigious followers and bigger tithes. Many times the missionaries ignore painfully obvious indicators of danger in this quest for self aggrandizement. The picture below is of several of the kidnapped missionaries standing in front of a notice at the airport which informs them that going to Afghanistan is dangerous. Some missionaries actually gloat about bypassing restrictions that prevent them from going to dangerous regions.
http://blog.naver.com/zarksha?Redirect=Log&logNo=100039974898
The Korean government has now banned all trips to Afghanistan and is asking them not to issue any visas to Korean citizens. This incident has caused an outcry against sending missionary groups to dangerous areas.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1647646,00.html
It also has people reconsidering if the risks of these "missions" are worth taking.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20070723/tpl-uk-korea-evangelicals-9e08e31.html
Personally, I hope for the safe return of the hostages, but I can't help think of how misguided, selfish, and hypocritical these people were. I think individuals and groups should have the freedom to decide their own risks, but they shouldn't be able to take unnecessary risks when it will detrimentally effect the self-preservation of others. The missionaries were already taking considerable risk by going to a war-torn region, but they fed fuel to the fire by using a dis-genuine religious reason in an already religiously sensitive situation. This has blown up remarkably badly, and other people may now be in danger because of their selfish desires.
A majority of the Korean population do not practice a religion. Most people here follow Neo-Confucius traditions (which causes a whole separate set of headaches), but they don't really consider themselves as followers of a religion. Buddha's birthday gets the same number of days off as Christmas here. However, there has been a recent trend of heavy proselytizing by the evangelical Christians here and it is spreading fairly rapidly.
The 23 people kidnapped in Afghanistan traveled as a volunteer group from the Sammeul Church in Bundang, Korea (a relatively high class suburb of Seoul). The church has repeatedly stated that they were there only for a medical mission and not to evangelize. It isn't clear that they sent any people of medical relevance, however it is clear that one of the members of the entourage was a pastor. One of the Taliban spokesperson justified the kidnapping (not that this type of thing can ever be justified) by outright stating that the group was there doing missionary work which is prohibited by the regional laws. Recent reports have stated that the group had actually visited one of the important mosques in Afghanistan and started singing Christian hymns. If these actions are indeed true, then the statements by the Church denying any proselytizing seem dishonest.
It has been speculated that the real reason these people are sent on these missions is to improve the status of their church in a competition for religious zeal. Many times people come back from these trips with videos and photos as proof of their devoutness and to place on their church website to attract more converts. The religious reputation generally translates to more prestigious followers and bigger tithes. Many times the missionaries ignore painfully obvious indicators of danger in this quest for self aggrandizement. The picture below is of several of the kidnapped missionaries standing in front of a notice at the airport which informs them that going to Afghanistan is dangerous. Some missionaries actually gloat about bypassing restrictions that prevent them from going to dangerous regions.
http://blog.naver.com/zarksha?Redirect=Log&logNo=100039974898
The Korean government has now banned all trips to Afghanistan and is asking them not to issue any visas to Korean citizens. This incident has caused an outcry against sending missionary groups to dangerous areas.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1647646,00.html
It also has people reconsidering if the risks of these "missions" are worth taking.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20070723/tpl-uk-korea-evangelicals-9e08e31.html
Personally, I hope for the safe return of the hostages, but I can't help think of how misguided, selfish, and hypocritical these people were. I think individuals and groups should have the freedom to decide their own risks, but they shouldn't be able to take unnecessary risks when it will detrimentally effect the self-preservation of others. The missionaries were already taking considerable risk by going to a war-torn region, but they fed fuel to the fire by using a dis-genuine religious reason in an already religiously sensitive situation. This has blown up remarkably badly, and other people may now be in danger because of their selfish desires.
Hello! My name is Inigo Montoya! You killed my father prepare to die!
Looking for a Hardcore Fantasy Extraction Shooter? - Dark and Darker
Looking for a Hardcore Fantasy Extraction Shooter? - Dark and Darker
krapst78 on
0
Posts
Of course, Afghan authorities may have to use force to try and free them - putting a lot ANA, ANP and possibly NATO lives on the line.
Were they irresponsible? Yeah. But you seem drawn to them because they got "caught" - there are hundreds of foreign aid workers in the country and you can't say that they simply don't belong.
Aid workers will always be targeted - last year a Canadian was helping to build a school over there and he was murdered. Don't blame the victim, blame those who killed him, or kidnapped this group.
I mean, it seems pretty obvious to me.
It's my belief that SK forces will be withdrawn on a pre-planned date. This incident will not influence SK's Iraq policy at all, I think, nor do I think it will draw retaliation inside SK itself. It's just way easier to keep attacking US soldiers over there than to try to hit SK around the globe.
Interestingly enough, RoK "military" forces in Afghanistan are entirely doctors and engineers (which these hostages aren't - I kind of come off defending them above but believe me what they were doing wasn't going to do a whole lot of good for people there).
Of course they aren't worried about their own lives, they think they're going to heaven if they die, martyrdom and such.
Of course, that doesn't make them that much better then the Taliban.
Seriously though, that is just not right for anyone who knew better (and I'll be darned if the church didn't know that this was practically a suicide mission) to okay this. That excuse that the Taliban gave looks shoddy to us but it could go over well with the masses in Afghanistan and it shows complete irresponsibility by everyone involved.
missionary work does not neccesarily involve preaching of any type -- this group was doing missionary work just by being a church group and volunteering. So regardless of their preaching or lack thereof, they were in violation of these laws, if these laws exist.
Their having a pastor with them is pretty normal if it's a fair sized group -- the pastor was likely an experienced missionary and was leading the group. This does not mean they were immediately preaching of any type.
I do a bit of short term missionary work -- I do it because I want to help people. I don't preach or do bible studies or anything when I do this work, it is strictly volunteer work and there is pretty much no difference between the work I do and what a secular group might do. If people end up with a better view of my church, or myself, or christianity, or convert, sure. But that isn't why I do it, and just immediately assuming this group was doing it strictly for that type of publicity is quite a big assumption.
If this group was actually singing some religious hymns in sketchy areas, it just shows me they were incredibly stupid.
Based on that assumption, these missionaries had the right to be there, regardless of what they were really there for.
That assumption is mistaken, and it wouldn't be a good idea to do it even if it wasn't. Laws mean very little in some places.
You mean that it's illegal to do missionary work in Afghanistan? Well then, that's not a good idea at all. As much as these people say differently, claiming themselves to be there to offer medical help (I'm curious if anyone there is even a nurse or doctor), it's pretty clear that they're missionaries (singing hymns in front of a mosque, that's probably illegal, too). As much as I think they should have the right to be there and do missionary work, disobeying the laws of a country is just silly. It's sad that they didn't just get arrested and sent home by the government, though.
However, apostasy in the muslim faith is a very dire thing. Even being in the presence of a church service, or observation of a Christian holiday, etc., in some muslim minds, makes you an apostate, the worst of the worst sins. And as I recall, most hardass muslim's don't take kindly to other faiths muscling in on them - as in, folks get kilt'.
offering medical help is missionary work if done with a religious mindset. Missionary work isn't all just singing and preaching, it's often very practical regular volunteer work.
Also, often a minimal amount of training in an industry still qualifies a person to offer help above and beyond what is available in a country like afghanistan. The amount of medical training I have, while YEARS below a nurse, would be more than enough in some crapholes to really help out.
You'd need to be competent enough to dispense medications, provide diagnoses, &c.. At the very least you would need to have undertaken at least part of a nurses' education.
I was trained by nurses for situations where nurses are unavailable, and that does include basic diagnosis, urgency of medical attention, and yes -- dispensing (basic) medication.
In buttcrap nowhere with nothing else, I am far better than someone who 'hopes it gets better'.
Mainly though, my point is that often some of the knowledge and (lack of) expertise we take for granted in places like canada and the USA are far and above beyond what is available in other areas of the world -- it can be very surprising in what ways the average person can help out (even medically).
Wait, the Taliban want a prisoner swap?
What the hell?
I'm surprised that they don't realize that SK missionaries are useless in a hostage situation, as the only international pressure that would affect them would be if SK managed to push the US and NATO into action, and I don't see them doing that.
Simply enough, these people gambled, and lost, and terrorists shouldn't be freed in order to save these idiots.
I am, obviously, against kidnapping and murdering and so forth, but fuck, -missionaries-.
The primary purpose of a missionary group is to recruit by showing up the local faiths which have failed to prevent destitution so that they can assert their own special flavor of bullshit to replace the local one, to eventually take the culture over in spirit if not in fact.
It's the equivalent of being a communist soup kitchen in the McCarthy era. They don't mean harm, but they DO mean to spread their meme. Their subtlety is also, most likely, a matter of their relative power. See: Missionaries in the Colonial Era.
It doesn't help that theocracy IS behind a lot of what's going on down there.
It's nice to say the primary purpose of a missionary group is recruitment, but it's also nice and wrong.
SOME missions are to convert people, others are not. I personally will never take part in a mission which forces people to listen to my special brand of bullshit -- you know, the whole 'we will make you a dinner but you need to listen to us preach' spiel.
That is why it is Missionary Work, and not "Just some people who happen to go to the same church."
At no point do you have to preach. All you have to do is leave the impression that your group's ideas or practices are attractive.
It doesn't say much about the intentions of this particular group of Koreans.
Also - man, what is wrong with you if you don't have sympathy for people who are kidnapped by the Taliban?
They were asking for it.
If you go into a place where missionary work is illegal and start singing christian hymns in front of the mosque, expect to get kidnapped! They were even joking about the signs that said Afghanistan was dangerous! Either they knew it was a suicide mission or their superiors lied to them about it, but I don't feel much sympathy towards them at all.
If they were just stupid tourists then I would feel sorry for them, but they were specifically breaking both the written law of the government and the laws of the Taliban, and if you do that then you're asking for it.
Yeah, just look at how short their skirts were.
Personally, I find kidnapping and killing people to be in a rather different league of morally abhorrent than any kind of religious mission.
So I guess pretty much any volunteer work is missionary work then? because helping people out automatically leaves that impression.
I also find it funny you're trying to tell me the definition of something I've done.
Trying to attribute any type of motive to the work this group was doing without being in that group is a pretty big assumption.
Back to the main topic: I don't feel extra sympathy for these kidnapped people because they're missionaries -- I feel sympathy for them because they're human beings. I DO find it abhorrent that some people are blaming them for the situation they find themselves in -- at least ONE has died and their is very little sympathy here.
As shinto said, I guess their skirts were too short.
I doubt people singing songs about capitalism would have survived very long in Communist Russia, either.
You do realize that a great deal of "foreign aid" is about spreading ideals, right? Hence why the local powers tend to spaz about it.
I think local powers generally spaz about foreign aid because it usually comes with a shitton of conditions. The countries effectively give up a bit of their sovereignty to receive the aid... or they can go against the conditions and watch their people starve.
External aid diminishes the appearance of power of the local controlling body.
Works with individuals too.
Lets go through the thought process:
"Hmmm, its a muslim country that has extremist elements, its against the law, there are a bunch of islamist terrorists who would shoot me dead if I was caught, the government is unlikely to help me out if I'm kidnapped... I know, we should go do missionary work and blatantly show that we are christian!"
I seriously think that these missionaries think that they're martyrs anyway, so I'm not sure they care that much about dying for the cause anyway.
And sure, they want to die and be martyrs so it doesn't matter if they are killed. I'm sure that is how it is.
Have you done any volunteer work? Some of it is very very focussed on empowering the population of the area the work is being done in. An example would be a friend of mine who set up a diesel engine device (I forget the name) and taught a village in Africa how to use the engine to create a milling machine for their grain, helping to give the village a viable economy. Another benefit was enrollment in school skyrocketed, as families no longer needed to have their children stay at home to sustain themselves.
They could have been something other than a random sacrifice to religious dick-waving.
--
Dude, I'm not saying that volunteers are evil assholes (not most at least).
But their actions DO undermine the power and prestige of the powers that be unless they have a DAMN good relationship.
I'm not making sweeping moral statements, just psycho-political ones.
Of course man. I mean I've never met those people but obviously I know exactly what they were in to. They wanted to die!
Missionaries might not ask anything in return. but in my opinion, they work the guilt angle a bit too much. Gee, we came over to your shit hole country and helped out, the least you could do is consider Jesus Christ as your personal savior.
Yes, I realize I'm over dramatizing on that last bit there. But IMO. If at ANY time, you even hint at at the idea that you're trying to change the religious beliefs of anyone for any reason? You reap what you sow. I'm not condoning murder or the kidnapping. But you simply cannot expect to meddle in something that is so profoundly personal to a person or an entire country, and not expect consequences. You can't just play the "but I was just volunteering" card. Besides, it also just makes the Muslim extremists right when they claim that we're trying to make them all Christian and westernized.
Hell, how would we react if some Taliban "missionaries" peacably came over to help out in Louisiana
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
Their might not be taliban missionaries in Louisiana, but you bet your sweet bippy their are muslim missionaries throughout the united states.
does that bother you?
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
You just equated Korean missionaries with the Taliban. Are you seriously going to start accusing him of bias?