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Hitting the Ceiling: PGR4 limited by DVD
devolve
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I honestly didn't think this would happen this soon, and especially to a game that appears to be this "small" but it appears to be the case. Bizarre creations admits in an interview that the reason why pgr4 won't have night and day in various cities is because it just won't fit onto a dvd if they did.
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/27908/DVD-places-limits-on-PGR4
I don't mind if rpg's or even fps's go onto two dvd's, I really don't. But racing games? Is this only going to get worse from here on out? Wasn't there some new super rad compression technology that was supposed to revolutionize this kind of issue?
You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night).
Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/27908/DVD-places-limits-on-PGR4
I don't mind if rpg's or even fps's go onto two dvd's, I really don't. But racing games? Is this only going to get worse from here on out? Wasn't there some new super rad compression technology that was supposed to revolutionize this kind of issue?
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Perhaps I'm wrong here, because I know nothing of the physical nature of games, but it seems like there are ways they could do this without doubling all the textures.
I think in the case of this game, it's probably more of a case of lights in windows, neon signs etc rather than just the textures need to be a little darker.
So release it on two discs with the option to install the second disk on the hard drive.
Or release the night tracks as a premium marketplace download....
This would lack the quality that we've come to expect from the environments in PGR.
Case in point.
Actually in PGR they use HDR lightmaps to do all the lighting. So you'd need to double up on the most memory consuming textures you have in order to make it happen.
I really hope they're at least storing these things in LogLUV instead of raw fRGB. That would cut down on size by a significant amount (4 Bpp instead of 12 Bpp) without a meaningful loss in detail.
Yeah, I totally store all my texture, uh, mapping data in LobGUN format, because I hate, uh... FSQE was it? FBRG? JRPG? I hate JRPG Texture mipmappering... >_>
....You lost me at "I". O_o
LogLUV = 4 bytes per pixel - compressed HDR image
fRGB = 12 bytes per pixel - uncompressed HDR image
With the very limited dynamic range in PGR, LogLUV would cut the on-disc light map size down to 1/3 of its current size and have no visible difference. The catch: you have to uncompress LogLUV before you can use it ... so it doesn't save you any RAM, just disc space.
... o_O ... that's brilliant!
And whilst you're in Fairyland, can you bring me back some pixie dust and a unicorn's horn.
I really hope that they're at least smarter than me in this regard.
EDIT:
This is actually only tangent to what you mentioned, so it looks funny reading it back. I just wanted to say that I expect it to be in a compressed format.
If you meant pay for downloads, then yeah fine. If you meant free download, then see previous proposition.
I dunno, I didn't have to go to fairlyland to get the free co-op update for Kameo.
But I wanted to. I'm all out of gumdrops, you see.
Oh look, I'm making.. people.. happppy.. I'm the magical man from HAPPY LAND, in a gumdrop house on lolly pop laaaaane.
If only you'd stopped by Fairyland, and paid the river man 200 microsoft poi... uh I mean, 200 wishes, you could have gotten these awesome new costumes that the fairys had just made. It's really lucky how they finished that just as you could get that update and might have an excuse to play the game again. Just coincidental timing... completely and utterly.
edit: haha classic episode.
:^:
Good show.
You, sir, win. :^:
I... I don't know whats going on here... I guess I missed something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAIGwOFjfZ8
I thought this exact same thing.
It is disturbing to think that developers are already running into trouble with compression and the use of dvds. It seems like making Blu-Ray standard in the PS3 was actually a smart investment for down the line.
I mean, I don't mind multiple CDs/DVDs, but any inconvenience to a developer is a bad thing, whether or not the gaming community finds them insignificant or not.
Second, I don't see why they cannot compress a lot of this stuff, and then have it uncompress and install onto the hard drive, then load from there.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
Well, even though the percentage is small, not every 360 owner has the harddrive, and asking them to pay $99+ to play one game would be marketing suicide.
Because not every 360 has a HD, and thus, devs can't make games based around the existence of a HD.
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
Steam Friend code: 45386507
Wellp, I always was of the opinion that 2 skus was a bad idea, and that the 360 should have had a standard hard drive in every system just like its predecessor.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
Do Core 360's even still exist in stores?
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
Steam Friend code: 45386507
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
I mean, it's obvious that the typical game like a 3D rpg would hit this ceiling first; in fact, it already did -- iirc, Blue Dragon comes on 2 discs.
Otherwise, people assumed that something like Oblivion, or another 'huge, epic' First Person Shooter would hit that ceiling; since these genres typically rely heavily on impressive graphics and non-repeating textures/environments/enemies. That hasn't really happened yet.
The funny thing is that RPGs, action games, and FPSs would probably work just fine on multiple discs. The interesting thing about the DVD being a limiting factor is the fact that for certain genres, having multiple discs really isn't an option. Realistic racing games are one of them, and, yeah, they apparently reached that point.
Too, too bad about the HDD thing.
Steam ID: slashx000______Twitter: @bill_at_zeboyd______ Facebook: Zeboyd Games
I don't think it really matters if they still exist in stores. People bought them. As long as the Cores make up any significant percentage of the user base, expect developers to cater to it. Even if its only 5%, that's still like 1/2 a million potential customers you don't want to exclude. Also, I'm pretty sure its one of the rules devs have to comply to. To design with the Core in mind.
I dunno if that would be entirely true for FPS games. Sure, its easy to break the campaign up, but not so much the multiplayer maps. Just like racing games, you need all of those environments on one disc to make it convenient. Otherwise, expect to wait an extra minute before each match while half the players get up to change discs.
That's very true, certain genres seem to have the exact opposite expectations than one would expect.
For instance, everyone's suprised that PGR4 could be on two DVDs, but I think even more people would be amazed if Mass Effect wasn't on two DVDs. It really comes with the territory of the genre, and what we've been predisposed to in the past.
Wasn't Gran Tursimo 2 two discs, though? How was that handled, exactly? I remember owning it, but I can't for the life of me remember how the second disc was used, or when one had to switch discs.
Actually, it's fucking three discs.
Crazy.
Blue Dragon hit it thanks to FMVs, I think... I'll bet that it's just like Final Fantasy VII, where you can have any disc you want in the drive, but once you hit an FMV, you need "disc 2" in there to load the cinematic (i.e. the entire game is on every disc. The only difference is that the cinematics are split up).
Also, we definitely all thought that a game like Oblivion would be the first to hit the limit, but it didn't come close. Mass Effect is fitting quite nicely, and from reading developer diaries, it's due to some awesome compression work by the devs.
The arcade version was on one disc, the simulation was on the other.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
Ever.
Seriously: Nelson-style HA-HA. I'm not generally one for a victory dance, but for all the dinguses (dingi?) who blathered on about Blu-ray being a terrible choice and something that would never be required in video games: Up yours.
I mean that in a polite way, but damn, that feels good.