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The older I get the smarter my father becomes
Werrick
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Registered User regular
I was discussing the idea that as a person gets older they become more and more aware of the fact that many of the things their parents were telling them or trying to teach them when they were kids become more and more true. Samual Clemens once said;
It's my observation that something happens in the brain of a person at the age of 20/21 and then again at around 30 allowing them firstly to see all that their parents were trying to teach them without the element of rebellion, and then again at around thirty because at that point the average person has seen enough to actually have the perspective. Some of the fire goes out in one's belly, allowing for perspective.
One poster in the other thread said that the older they get the more they realized how their parents had made terrible choices and based on that, and the fact that they realize more and more how human they are. I didn't reply in that thread, but it's my contention that this isn't actually inconsistent with my point of view.
Though I consider myself a shining example of this idea, I also see my parents now as more human. In fact, in part due to the fact that I have this perspective now and because I see their humanity and recognize their mistakes, and in part because we've talked about those mistakes do I see this.
I would be interested to know your perspective.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.
It's my observation that something happens in the brain of a person at the age of 20/21 and then again at around 30 allowing them firstly to see all that their parents were trying to teach them without the element of rebellion, and then again at around thirty because at that point the average person has seen enough to actually have the perspective. Some of the fire goes out in one's belly, allowing for perspective.
One poster in the other thread said that the older they get the more they realized how their parents had made terrible choices and based on that, and the fact that they realize more and more how human they are. I didn't reply in that thread, but it's my contention that this isn't actually inconsistent with my point of view.
Though I consider myself a shining example of this idea, I also see my parents now as more human. In fact, in part due to the fact that I have this perspective now and because I see their humanity and recognize their mistakes, and in part because we've talked about those mistakes do I see this.
I would be interested to know your perspective.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be rude without having their skulls split, as a general thing."
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
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He's still really smart and knows a lot of things and excels at problem-solving, but man can he make some bad decisions.
I second that statement.
So, personally, I don't find much truth in that particular adage.
On High Schoolers now, they can be annoying, and I can't tell whether they're more ignorant than I was at the time, but I certainly don't hate them. Their world is small, but about the same percentage as always will figure out that there's a whole planet out there with problems that don't revolve around Kanye West and 50 Cent. And those people will grow up to be presidents and astronauts....or just be massively out bred by the swarming masses of stupid.
That said, my first 2 weeks at college I remember thinking holy shit I was an idiot, I didn't know anything about anything. I wish that moment could come sooner for a lot of kids, but it would require a vastly different system for it to happen.
I'm not really talking about the foibles, inadequacies and failings of parents, that happens to every human being, I'm talking about the thigns that our parents try to teach us as we're children. It's my observation that regardless of what mistakes a parent might make, and they all make them, children often close the divergence in terms of viewpoint as they get older.
The statement "As I get older I realize that my parents have made mistakes and bad decisions" is not novel or extraordinary nor is it inconsistent with the idea that one can become more in line with my observation.
Really, if I were to simplify it I would say that it is akin to getting along with them as much as anything else. The things they say and their opinions become less ridiculous as we, their children get older and approahc their perspective.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
Moving to the UK, I've found that it's more common for people to stay at home with Mummy and Daddy longer. Sometimes its due to the price of accomodation, sometimes its a cultural thing... But I know 26 year olds that act like we did when we were 16. These "adults" also cant even cook a meal for themselves and the lack of direct responsibility really shows.
What ensures that the perspective I am approaching mirrors theirs? We have some shared or similar values, such as just how far you can trust governments and how to properly care for tools, but the range of fields in which I consider his input to be expert has only narrowed as I've grown older. Seeming more human doesn't equate to seeming smarter, quite the opposite in fact.
I accepted that my parents knew best in almost all cases, however, because they were teachers. By the time I grew old enough not to trust everything a teacher says, my parents had proved themselves to me a hundred times over, mostly by seeing what other kids my age were like.
I don't know what ensures that you're approaching their perspective, or that it even happens beyond my own experience. What I can say is that I get along a lot better with my father as an adult than I ever did as a child at any age. I see the lessons he was trying to teach me as opposed to just being more lecturing.
My father's a pilot and I also work in aviation. At this point I also have experienced the phenomenon of realzing that the shit that he knows about is limited. But so is the shit that I know about. As a matter of fact, I now have more educatoin that my father does and while there's still some stuff that he "gets" that I don't the fact is that I now know more than he does on a large number of issues.
I even disagree with much of what he says, for that matter.
But that doesn't change the fact that even when I disagree with what he says that I can understand how he arrived at that conclusion and in that analysis I can see that the logic that he used is at least sound. The difference is that when I was a boy or a teenager I would have thought he was out of his mind and didn't know what he was talking about, but now I can at least see how he might have arrived at the conclusion and I can talk with him the way I would any other adult as opposed to it simply devolving into a screaming match about.... whatever the issue happens to be.
The other issue is that I find that while his advice might not always be appropriate for me personally, I still value it very much because oftentimes it is appropriate and it offers a perspective that I don't have. That's always been the case but it's only since I've become an adult that I can see value in that perspective. At the very least the perspective itself is of value even if the advice resultant is not.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
Although, I'd mostly attribute my ability to see her as a more human character as a result of my own observation abilities in general. That is to say, I don't think this change in observation is limited to viewing my parents; I'm just better able to relate with everyone in general and get them better. The parents are just the people I've known the longest, so I can get the most meaning out of my newfound powers of observation.
As an aside, I love the wording on that. It lets a body know that they think goverments are nothing but gormless thieves without having the unpleasantness of needing to sound it out.
So what about the possibility of different starting-points? I thought way more highly of my dad when I was little than I think of anyone non-fictional at this point. It used to be that I'd put him right up there with Batman, but Batman has long since edged him out.
It's funny that you mention that. I often refer to my own father as my own personal superhero.
I'm a huge superhero fanatic. I do buy comics (at 31 years old, God fucking help me), but I'm more fascinated by the ideology and mythology of superheroes than anything else. I've been obsessed with Spider-man since I was 3 and I have superhero paraphenalia strewn all over my apartment.
And yet my father is greater than all of them.
Perhaps my observation isn't as universal as I thought.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
my father always seemed smart, and his choices always made sense to me. I think the difference now (I'm 21) as opposed to let's say, 5 years ago, is that I can see a lot of him in the choices I'm making, and I can see my future self in the things he does.
... wow he'd probably love to read that.
this is very strange to me.
then again, my parents were divorced when I was four, which even at that age came across as a major WHAT THE FUCK?!. so it was hard to view them as perfect, let alone superhero-esque from that point on.
not that I hated them. I was never that kid... but they were always very real to me and with me because it was always one on one.
Maybe that's the difference...
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
yeah, they also remarried when I was 7 or 8 and redivorced when I was 11 or 12.
I don't try to get all psycho-analytical (is that a word? I don't really know) on myself but I assume a lot of how I feel towards them comes from that.
I'm certain of it as far as my mother goes, but that's a whole other bag of huge disgusting worms that no one should ever EVER go into.
but it also ignores the idea that a fair sum of teenagers (at least a lot who seem to be posting here) actually do respect their elders and what they have to say, not because they are supposed to but because it's logical to listen to people who've done this shit before.
I seem to be in the same boat. Being alone in the same room with him feels awkward.
This makes me kinda sad.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
My father I have a lot more respect for: I mean, he did his best to keep his marriage together for those last few years before the divorce, although even I could see it was hopeless (I was around 19 and out of the house at the time). I even like to hang out with him from time to time: bring him to an Italian restaurant, convince him to try a few beers, etc. But, as far as opinions, beliefs, and overall life decisions go, my father is the poster child for what I'm trying to avoid.
I think that the big difference between myself at 15 and myself at 25 (my current age) is that when I was 15, he'd say something and I'd think he was just plain stupid, oversensitive and/or blinded by religion - and I'd say so. Now, I can enjoy spending time with him, even though I think he's made some bad choices and believes some silly things.
Now that I've grown up, matured, went to college, got a job, and everything else I've come to realize that my parents were spot-on with all the advice they gave me growing up. I'm lucky that somehow, through all of my antics, thier parenting stuck. They were also wise enough to realize that they weren't raising a criminal, just a very confused/angry kid, and not ship me off to boarding/military school.
Also, I realize now that I wasn't fooling anybody trying to hide the things I did from my parents. I had a conversation with my dad when I was 20 about how I was exactly like him as a kid, and he used to use all the same tricks.
Can't say it makes me happy but I have more or less come to terms with it. No one gets to choose their parents and things could have been worse.
Later I've realized how hard she tried to be both a mother and a father to me. Over the past ten years (I'm 32 now) I've come to know her as a person and not just "my mom", with all the insecurities and weaknesses she hid so well when I was a kid, and my image of not only her but myself as well has changed totally. I also realize now how hard she worked. She kicked my alcoholic father out when I was two, took two jobs to afford a decent home for us, saved up to pay for my education, built a succesful career and somehow managed to raise me as well. As a result I still feel perpetually guilty about being such a selfish retard as a teenager, but then, I guess all teenagers are retarded.
I wouldn't be so rough on your mom. I'm sure theres a lot of stuff I don't know about but still, the best thing you can do is be there for them. I can speak from experience. I've been through a lot with my Dad. First I found out by accident when I was 16 that he wasn't my biological father and he adopted me (merry Christmas indeed), then when I was 18 and living with him he got encephalitis and it affected his brain. After the short hospital stay he went nuts and and lost his house and became a bipolar alcoholic, and I delt with that until I was about 21. Thing is though no matter how mad I was at him, no matter what he did I was always there. And I'm very appreciative of the relationship we have because I never gave up on him.
No. I didn't start developing a really adult perspective on life until I left home at 19, but my dad died not long after my 17th birthday. I've spoken to my mom about it, but that's not exactly the same thing, obviously.
Naw. My dad was an ex-biker and fiercely independent. He was also anti-social and a bit of a hermit. For example, he turned down an electrical engineering job for IBM in Sunnyvale because he felt that the SF Bay Area was a bad place to raise kids because there were too many people. Instead he moved to a farming town in central California, set up a hobby farm, and tried at one point to move to Idaho and take the family with him because as far as he was concerned the further away from other people you are, the better.
When I was a kid, I didn't judge these choices, I just accepted them. Today, I see my dad as intelligent, but troubled. He obviously had untreated depression and issues of paranoia and social anxiety. Whenever you hear about psych issues and parenting the question of abuse comes up and I wanted to emphasize that that was never an issue. He was a great father... as long as you overlooked some of his quirks.
That's not a sensical question. Even the most disturbed of schizophrenics have an internal logic to their delusions. If you believe yourself to be a carrot and are consequently deathly afraid of rabbits, then yeah, you're making the best choices from your POV.
His point of view was that people are stupid and dangerous and that the best conceivable living situation was one as far away from other people and social inter-relationships as possible. He fully believed in the MI-5 "four meals away from anarchy" scenario. Yeah, if you adopt the assumption that human beings are a hair's breadth away from turning into predatory animals, then his choices made sense. Today, I see that POV as being misguided at best and the symptom of a mild mental illness at worst.
Well, I think most kids grow up only seeing part of their fathers, and often it's the bad part because fathers and mothers play bad cop / good cop a lot of the time. So most people go through a phase where they start to see their parents less as caricatures of themselves and more as multidimensional human beings. I just don't think it's foregone conclusion that the transition is always, or even usually, going to involve frustration giving way to admiration.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
None of this changes that, as I got older, I gained a lot of sympathy for how hard it is to be a parent. I wouldn't say that I grew to think my parents were wise, but I grew to understand where they were coming from and why they did what they did while raising me.
As some one else alluded to, that's just a part of growing up. Teenagers are infamous for having poor empathy and a lack of ability (in most cases, not all) to see outside their own limited worldview and their own needs/priorities. As we grow up we (in most cases, not all) gain a broader worldview and better ability to understand where other people are coming from.
That affects how we see our parents. If they were great parents, we're likely to see them as wise, if they're not, we're likely to see their flaws as a template of what not to do as parents. Most parents are probably in-between, so we take the good and the bad and understand them as people, not just parents.
I never had a "my parents are stupid" phase but I did have a nice rebellious streak for a while.
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In the end we do fight alot, Its pretty much all we do these days. He seems worried that I don't know how to act around people to say, get a job and such. Plus he likes to tell me what my motives for actions are, its frustrating.
I think alot of fighting between Parents and teenagers stems from both noticing how similer they are. Teenagers get hostile towards the thing they wish to avoid becoming and Parents asume there kids will do exactly what they would which comes off as a lack of trust.
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But my high school experience was nightmarish, so that's not terribly strange.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
That being said, he doesn't really seem smarter. We agree alot politically, but his opinions just seem so...shallow. Just ranting about how much of a crook Bush is doesn't really add any context or make for a fun conversation. He also once got enraged over how the Marilyn Vos Savant/Let's Make a Deal riddle obviously is lying, which doesn't help. But we get along okay, for the most part. He's sort of a proto-geek, himself, so we tend to bond by going to Gen Con every year, and when I lived at home he enjoyed watching me play some video games; usually more cinematic ones like Silent Hill.
Now adays we get along great. He still gets made easily, but I take it better now than I did then. I've already recently learned many facts about our financial situation when I was a kid that I never knew and it actually makes me a little ashamed of how I acted sometimes.
As for being pissed at kids for being kids, well that just doesn't make any sense to me. Sure, teenagers are dumb and do dumb things. Their supposed to, they're teenagers. While I hate to bring up a sappy work-email-signature inspirational quote: "Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment."
Since then he has moved out of state and is living with a lesbian who adopted a child from russia. He comes around about once a month, primarily to see my kids. We talk of meaningless things, and he leaves. He also has taken to making fun of me for having wire hangers and going to ballroom dancing competitions. So he is not really getting wiser as I get older, but he is definately getting gayer.
And I mean that in all seriousness.