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The Ethics of Porn in Relationships
TL DR
Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
So I was recently caught by my g/f of going on 4 years (with a 1.5 year break in the middle) with porn on my computer. She got pretty heated, since this is a touchy issue for her. Now, she's been anti-porn since she was 13, and I've been enjoying porn since about the same age. My goal is to make the relationship work. Am I resolved into giving up porn? Even if I do, she won't trust me, which is the shitty thing.
So: is porn basically harmful to relationships? If she had not found it, would there have been harm done? Does porn desensitize people to sex?
Discuss.
So: is porn basically harmful to relationships? If she had not found it, would there have been harm done? Does porn desensitize people to sex?
Discuss.
TL DR on
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I really don't think that the fact X is specifically porn is the problem here.
And porn is about as destructive on relationships as anything else, meaning not really at all. It can be good for relationships, used correctly, or it can destroy them if it becomes an obsession. You two should really get to the bottom of why she's so anti-porn and whether your need for porn is excessive.
I've always been relatively upfront about my affinity for porn. Hasn't impacted my relationship with the girls that have been in my life in the least.
Porn does desensitise people to sex, but not universally. Again, this is an individual issue. For instance, I have been desensitised to sex in the past as a result of watching too much porn and had to take steps to correct the issue and now only watch it in moderation.
I would reccomend trying to compromise with her. Be open with the fact that you have it and enjoy it, but be sure to be respectful of the fact that she doesn't like it. Point out to her that your sex life has not suffered as a result (I'm assuming, after four years if your sex life hasn't changed or been unsatisfactory otherwise it wouldn't have lasted this long).
A lot of people think that because someone enjoys watchign something or fantasizing about a thing that they somehow want to do that thing, but the reality is that fantasies are fantasies and very rarely are they the kind of thing that a person wants to actually do. For instance, I love group porn, orgies, threesomes, that kind of thing, but there's no way in hell I'd ever want to actually do it.
Remember that your sex life is not just your sex life with her, there's a portion of it that belogns to you alone. Since you've been going out with her, for instance, have you stopped masturbating altogether? It's entirely possible and probable that you can and do enjoy both.
If she really, really has a problem with it that simply cannot be reconciled then you need to decide if it's worth giving up porn. If this is a woman you want to spend the rest of your life with then it's probably worth it. If it's not someone you're sure you want to spend the rest of your life with then it's probably not worth it. At the end of the day the question I always ask myself is "If it's this thing this time, will there be something else some other time that she 'makes' me do or stop doing?" and the moment I feel like woman I'm with is starting to try to control me and my behaviour I'm out, and it invariably happens with almost every relationship I've ever been in.
At the end of the day you might be screwed anyway, though. If she's not going to trust you no matter what you do then fuck it, get the fuck out of the relationship now because it's already over.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
I would expect people uncompromisinly anti- all (let's throw gay in here too) porn are stick-up-the-ass churchy types. Or the feministas who see porn as degrading.
But IMO for anyone with adequate grasp of reality and basic courtesy, porn is not harmful, no. One can easily see a distinction between Max Hardcore making women gag and an act of intimacy with someone you care for.
And I say courtesy because, nobody wants to hear "Sorry I'd get you off but I just finished myself watching some japanese girls. I'm going to sleep".
It's good. Also, informative. Maybe show it to the girl.
A Feminist Defense of Pornography
what kind of asshat prefers porn to real sex that's what I wanna know
I have no idea, man. I'm just talking use some foresight if you might have a booty call that night.
Your mileage may vary, but my guess is it's the secret aspect that's most damaging to the relationship.
That's a fantastic article, thanks for that.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
I think being forced to give up porn would make a person pretty resentful. But there's a few things you could talk through with her and also ask yourself.
Are you using porn instead of having sex with her? The instinctual reaction to learning that your boyfriend watches porn is usually 'am I not enough?' Yes, there are men who will choose to regularly masturbate to porn instead of having sex because having sex and maintaining a relationship is 'too much effort'. If you're using porn when she's away or you're unable to have sex then it's seen as more acceptable. Everyone wants a quick release now and then, but if you're showing a regular preference for porn over taking some time for a bit of foreplay, perhaps it's time to rethink?
Why is she against porn? For some women it's a matter of self-worth and self-confidence; scared that they're not good-looking enough. However, sometimes it's about professing disgust at an industry that is seen as exploitive and abusive. The latter point is a little harder to argue against
EDIT: What deowolf says about the 'secret' angle is very true. It makes it more problematic when you're discovered with porn because it makes the woman think 'how often has he been using it while being with me?' It is always better to be upfront; it's even better if you manage to introduce it into the relationship as something to be shared.
I dunno, personally i wouldn't, regardless the issue. I'm willing to work, if the other person isn't...screw em.
This is awesome stuff. I am bookmarking this.
Wouldn't women see others enjoying porn as betrayal before it eats away at their self-worth? As I understand women (and I don't), before a relationship becomes serious and full of compromises, it starts as rigidly equal where it's a big deal if one partner gets to enjoy something and the other doesn't. It's not like individuality is squashed but, damn, in those first few months you've gotta feign interests in the other person is into. Not many admit it, but yeah, that's part of courting.
The OP has been seeing his girlfriend for three years so they're probably way past that stage. Still, do you think the girlfriend is feeling jealous or betrayed because the OP is enjoying a vice and she's not getting to?
I understand what you're saying, but I disagree with you. I don't think the reason you give is the defining one for most of the women who dislike porn. Most of the time the girlfriends aren't going to want to share or partake in the porn viewing.
I addressed jealousy in my post in as much that often a boyfriend enjoying porn is seen as the boyfriend choosing porn over the girlfriend.
That hasn't been my experience at all.
Like, I don't feign interests. I've been honest about shit I don't enjoy, stuff that makes me uncomfortable. I make compromises by doing things with her that I don't necessarily enjoy, but I've already told her about my likes and dislikes (and I make certain to ascertain many of hers), so she knows what I'm doing for her. Feigning interest is a technique I only employ when meeting parents and people I don't care to keep around as friends or partners, romantic or otherwise.
But there's lots of porn out there particularly on the internet that takes time to acknowledge the women are real people and not dead-eyed skanks
I don't know about that: the OP acknowledges that the girlfriend has been anti-porn "since age 13," suggesting that he knew about this beforehand. Actually, regardless of whether this fact was known or not, it seems pretty clear to me that she's anti-porn because she's anti-porn. This dispute is only partly about porn; it's also, importantly, about trust and communication, as the OP acknowledges. Getting over this issue will involve frank and honest discussions on both sides, and I don't think that jealousy necessarily factors into it.
XBL : lJesse Custerl | MWO: Jesse Custer | Best vid ever. | 2nd best vid ever.
I think a lot of people who have extremist positions on equal rights issues tend to get myopic with the way they see things and interpret reality. I can't count the number of times I've seen women argue against an extreme feminist point of view in favour of a more moderate position only to be called down as brainwashed, ignorant or downright stupid.
I suppose the same thing can happen with race and ethnicity, though we don't see that much up here. There are some elements of it, but we're so fucking socialist up here that I can't remember ever seeing any evidence of real, systemic racism. Pockets, certainly, but very small and largely individualised.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
Yeah, that was pretty much the exact language my mother used. She has an excuse for her relative extremism, as she had an *exceptionally* shitty childhood, but she's still wrong to stake out such an unforgiving and un-nuanced perspective.
I think the problem with porn and feminism is generational. People like Loren's mom conceive of porn as universally degrading to women because, quite frankly, that's how it was when feminists of the First and Second Waves were thinking about it. Yes, Nexus, there's much more moderate and women-friendly porn around now, but it's still not the majority and a very recent development. Remember, the OP's girlfriend found her opinion on porn when she was 13.
Third-Wave feminists (like the "pro-sex" crowd in Loren's link) are much more open to porn when it's done in the more women-empowering ways that Nexus talked about.
So, ultimately what happens is the person arguing so vociferously for the rights of their cause and chosen group ends up restricting the members of that group by limiting what choices are available simply by categorizing any who have different points of view as not knowing any better for whatever reason.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
QFT, great answer, that is exactly what I'd say as well.
....wait, what? O_o
The real problem is that we can't find any porn that's both good and not-misogynist. In fact, at this point I think we'll just settle for "good".
EDIT: @ emnmnme
Marc Dorcel's stuff is really good... at least I really like it. I don't think it's mysoginist.
EDIT - Admittedly there is some stuff that seems mysoginistic, but I think that might only be prima-fascia. I think if you look at it harder and think about it there's just as much in the other spectrum. Why can't it be that there are some women who like to be dominated in bed? There are a lot of men who love being dominated, but that's not misandristic... see where I'm going with this? I'm not discounting the idea out of hand that some may be mysoginistic, but before one labels perhaps it's of value to ask questions that surround both sides of the gender equation.
-Robert E. Howard
Tower of the Elephant
I thought 'porn suitable for couples' was a big industry. I didn't realize it was that hard to find lewd movies that appeal to both the guy and the girl.
EDIT: Maybe I'm not understanding it but what is misogynistic porn? Is it porn that doesn't respect women or porn that doesn't give equal exposure and screen time to male and female genitalia?
And Loren, I was trying to say the feminists possibly don't see it as restricting actions but more like correcting an eyesore. That's assuming, of course, a feminist seeing a woman pole dancing as just an eyesore and nothing more. Chances are the feminist would be either severely offended or disappointed. The analogy came out ... very wrong.
No, it's pretty much clear that most porn is misogynistic. You don't have to think very hard about it when the woman is called names throughout.
I take it you've not slept with one of the millions of women who actually enjoy being called names during sex.
That women can enjoy that treatment in the right context doesn't necessarily negate your point, but it certainly isn't the most compelling argument. I'd say women receive (and exhibit) substantially more misogynistic behaviors in porn than just seemingly enjoying being called a slut.
I don't want to read that whole thing, but does it deny the exploitation of women in the porn industry? Because my skimming of it says that it does. Saying it was voluntary does not mean that it's not exploitative.
Well, it's great to see you two taking the nuanced perspective of porn being full of flowers and puppies, and that feminists who are pro-sex but not the exploitation and sexism in the porn industry not existing.