If it's anything like DAOC, then this collision detection is the new answer to keeping positionals under control. Melee classes in DAOC were often very much defined by their positional attacks, but in a 1v1 situation /stick usually eliminated the ability to use them unless your target was stunned. If you could land a positional and start up that chain though, you were often given the edge you needed for a fight.
I remember reading somewhere that they weren't planning on implementing /stick, so collision detection is likely their way of keeping the random jumping in figure eights that's so common in WoW from being a way to land whatever positional you want to trigger onto your opponent at any time.
Onrpg: Collision detection in a PvP setting is something that almost anyone who has played a front lines-type character has been begging for since the creation of the genre, yet has been denied by other companies due to "technical limitations". How can we expect it to work within the game?
Richard Duffek: Absurdly well! Collision detection is a feature we're very proud of because it can have a very positive impact on the RvR experience. First of all, it eliminates the irritating behavior of a target running through you to either stay out of sight or to execute positional attacks. It seems like a minor thing, but it dramatically improves the overall feel of combat.
Second, it will add a much needed tactical layer to combat as players will be able to create formations on the battlefield to maximize the effectiveness of their party. They will be able to create walls of protection and attackers will need to find ways to deal with this. No longer will people be able to zip through a ten-foot Black Orc with an eight-foot shield to take out the little Shaman in the back.
The only reason WoW doesn't have collision is to allow more people to play. It also lessens the server load because all the server needs to care about is line of sight and collision with static objects.
But with a game like WAR where you're expected to have a video card and a broadband connection already? I don't see why they wouldn't implement player collisions.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited August 2007
Asherons Call has Collision detection. And it worked perfectly. The OP is right, it adds a new dimension to PVP. Anyone who says otherwise is being an ignorant carebear (and I am aware this is a very rude insult, but you are being very synical over something I garuntee you know nothing aboout).
There WILL be times when a player blocking another player will pose an important role. Sure you can run around, but it does affect you. It can help stop people from running away. You can also protect objectives, or block escape routes, or block entryways. You can surround people to make sure they die. Yes some of its affects suck for people, but thats how it should be. The thing about PVP and the good and the bad is it goes both ways. And the only people who hate stuff like that are the ones who dont have the ballsack to deal with not being the "hero" and being invincible or at least, being able to run around alone and stilll be successful because all the mechanics are on your side. Yeah it can be boring to get raped, but its also incredibly rewarding to rape someone because you might have stopped them in thier track by getting in thier way.
Its also ALOT easier to "own" land when you can actually physically protect it. Kind sucks if you DO have 40 odd people and one guy can just run on by because you are all transparent to him.
Anyone who's fought a Rogue in WoW should know the benefits of collision detection, laggy or not. Nothing quite like fighting someone who's constantly running through your character and swivelling around hoping to land a backstab or fuck up your line of sight. CD helps in more ways than just allowing tank classes to make a wall. Collision alone doesn't solve the PvP Tank problem, but that's not all WAR is doing. If I'm not mistaken, they mentioned a PvP Taunt that reduces the target's damage against all players except you.
I think this means they can let the dedicated melee DPS classes (marauder, choppa, hammerer, witch hunter) have really devastating backstab attacks. I *hope* this means they can let the dedicated melee DPS classes have really devastating backstab attacks.
This would be on par with William Wallace surrendering to England. Not because they are corporate bastards in their sports franchise empire, but because they destroyed Earth and Beyond.
personally I think thats a retarded reason not to play something you actually want to play, but thats just me.
Especially since everything I've read has said that EA is largely staying out of Mythic's way aside from throwing money at them.
EA is probably hoping WAR becomes the next WoW. But WAR is PvP centric and most people just want to kill MOBs. So I can see WAR becoming the most popular PvP MMO but not the most popular MMO in my opinion. But then again I haven't paid much attention to how WAR's solo/PVE content is coming along so maybe they could be the next WoW if they can win over the PVE fan base? But I am just speculating.
Hello I am a closet Megalomaniac. My favorite subjects and people are great battles of history and conquerors. Although my half baked and delusional fantasies of world dominance will probably never come to pass, I like so many others find my outlet in games. I dream of a MMO that would give people like me a real tactical and strategic PvP experience. A game where I can command the members of my army or guild like you would a real army. With battle lines and tactics, where your player class had real purpose and a job to do in battle. And whether you played according to your class and did your job decided the out come of the battle.
I think most of these a comments are complaints against MMO players in general, not tied to any particular game. You want to be a general? You can certainly try to recruit a guild where your members are cogs in your army, but I think you'd have to find some very unique people to do it. What constitutes "real tactical and strategic PvP"? From that paragraph, it sounds like it means "everybody shut up and follow my orders" to you. I'm sure there are certainly guilds like this in any MMO, but from my experience, and those of my friends, its only fun for those at the top, not for warrior #3 that is "holding the right flank". And about the "real purpose and a job to do in battle" is just silly. I know priests in WoW who's "real" purpose is to heal people a warrior's "real" purpose is to keep that warrior from attacking that warlock, and a mage's "real" purpose is to sheep that opponent's priest.
Sure battle lines maybe absent from WoW, but tactics? I haven't played warsong gulch in ages, but at least when I did, we would feint towards one flag to split up the opposing group, flank groups that let us get behind them, I see no lack of tactics here, and that isn't even getting into attacking whom and when.
Most MMO’s fail miserably at this in PvP. Yeah everyone knows their job in a PvE raid encounter and they expect you to play your class right. Tanks are expected to tank. Healers are expected to heal, and so on. And if you do not fulfill your roll in a PvE group setting, you and your group die, and no one likes to be the blame for a wipe. But some how developers have had a hard time getting this concept to translate over or work in the mass PvP environment. Pretty much everyone just runs around crazy trying to kill people, regardless of their class or what the objectives are.
If you got some of your friends together, organized them a bit, then they certainly wouldn't go around all willy-nilly attacking anything that moves. I don't care what game, with what mechanics you have in that game, if you just select 10-20-40 people randomly for a particular battle, they aren't going to be organized. Ever. This is the main reason why games have objectives that are tuned to a smaller number of people. Its because the majority of players don't want to be warrior #10 whose job it is to stand in one spot and hold off enemy warrior #23 for a silly mage who he doesn't even know or care about can cast a fireball.
Now I know there will always be the idiots that run around crazy and don’t listen. But I dream of a game where that kind of person is killed so fast in a battle that they never want act that way again.
Again, taking from my experience in WoW, the person who wondered out thinking he could take that flag by himself, still got killed very quickly, yet amazingly those players never went away. Guild wars being the same way.
The problem I think is in the game mechanics. Most MMO’s lack any real incentives for player organization or consequences for disorganized behavior. I think that they might be afraid that doing things like making character death a really bad thing or making battles so strategic that it takes way to much thought, would alienate many players.
I think the consequences of disorganized behavior that the disorganized team loses. I've not seen any game, where this is not the case.
In my mind there are two different kinds of PvP gamers. Those like me who find fun in planning and the execution of strategies and those that just want to get in and kill. Take a game like WoW. The PvP is totally made for the get in there and kill player. And rightly so, their are way more of that type of player then any other And that’s why its successful. Every battle field is basically rush a position or take a flag and that’s about as strategic as it gets. This is why I play WoW primarily for the PvE experience. But I still think a game can be made that can satisfy both types of players.
The thing is, with PvP it is all about who you are and who you're going against, if you get an organized opponent, then you have to make sure you attack at the right positions and at the right time or you'll lose. This, ironically, is much like real life battles. If army A attacks a disorganized army B, then guess what, army A is going to win with ease, and little use of detailed strategy. Only if both armies are organized and relatively equally balanced, are you going to get battles that possibly are written down and studied in the history books.
Now if you could maybe think of some innovative way to provide incentive in listening to a battle leader, something that a large number of players are willing to accept and like. Something that, while making them feel important and useful, yet still working as a team, something like...
Warhammer online has me pretty excited for one reason alone, Player Collision. *snip*
Man what?! I really fail to see how player collision is going to help bring about your view of an idealistic strategy filled game where everyone listens to what you say. It may place more emphasis on positioning once battle breaks out, and this may very well maybe a very good thing and make the game more fun, but if you think this is going to eliminate idiots that run around like chickens with their heads chopped off, I don't know what to say.
The thing, if anything, that I think will make WAR more interesting PvP wise is simply that they are placing more effort into designing structured PvP that provides incentive to participate and succeed. If they make the interface to be able to efficiently communicate tactics and strategy, even better. Player Collision will change how the battle plays out. It will be different, and thus different strategies and tactics will emerge for those that are organized and put in the effort. But they will be just that, different tactics and strategies for people who are motivated to be organized and plan, same as just about any other game.
tl;dr - Player Collision won't help a community be more organized. Better incentives to be organized will.
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
fortunately I don't think many people share the sentiments of the OP (which aren't bad, just overly complicated). CD will be awesome for different reasons
personally I think thats a retarded reason not to play something you actually want to play, but thats just me.
Especially since everything I've read has said that EA is largely staying out of Mythic's way aside from throwing money at them.
EA is probably hoping WAR becomes the next WoW. But WAR is PvP centric and most people just want to kill MOBs. So I can see WAR becoming the most popular PvP MMO but not the most popular MMO in my opinion. But then again I haven't paid much attention to how WAR's solo/PVE content is coming along so maybe they could be the next WoW if they can win over the PVE fan base? But I am just speculating.
WAR's devs have stated openly that they can't compete with WoW. They're not trying to make a copycat.
I don't know where you're from but here fear is a delicacy.
You must not be in the U.S. then, where Bush supplies it in great heaping quantities, with a main course of stupidity. *ahem*
Back on topic, in case the PvP question wasn't sarcasm, yes warhammer online has been touting itself as having great world and instanced pvp, and that other stuff too.
chrono_traveller on
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
Thats a lot to respond to Chrono. Several of my friends and the various guilds they belong to and I are making plans to play WAR together, and they are all pretty excited as I am about CD among other aspects of the game. Yes I think it would be fun to lead and have people follow my orders but I don't run around demanding it. I like to be a part of a good strategy just as much as I like to think one up. Other then that I still think CD adds a in depth level to PvP in WAR and if you read some of the interviews and previews about it you will find a lot of other people and the developers agree. I am looking forward to seeing how it progresses.
Collision detection is just there; it's not really a primary feature, or for formations, or intended to force players to work together. It's just another feature that provides interesting mechanics to work with.
The way characters move (at least, as of convention demos) is quite a bit different than other MMOs; not as rigid as old school stuff like SWG or EQ, but not floaty flip-through-the-air-like-ninjas as with WoW. You can strafe a bit, but slower turn rates and an inability to spin mindair (you can move, but not spin and maintain momentum) keep characters facing each other and making smaller movements. Combine this with positional attacks and collision detection, and individual combats become a bit of a dance; you try to step around your enemy, or get the high ground and jump over them, but it's not possible to just run forward, jump, and fly through the air while blasting them with bow or spells.
It's just a piece, not the end-all, be-all of PvP combat.
The way characters move (at least, as of convention demos) is quite a bit different than other MMOs; not as rigid as old school stuff like SWG or EQ, but not floaty flip-through-the-air-like-ninjas as with WoW. You can strafe a bit, but slower turn rates and an inability to spin mindair (you can move, but not spin and maintain momentum) keep characters facing each other and making smaller movements.
I'm pretty sure that being able to change your momentum at will mid-air is more ninjalike than what happens in WOW.
The way characters move (at least, as of convention demos) is quite a bit different than other MMOs; not as rigid as old school stuff like SWG or EQ, but not floaty flip-through-the-air-like-ninjas as with WoW. You can strafe a bit, but slower turn rates and an inability to spin mindair (you can move, but not spin and maintain momentum) keep characters facing each other and making smaller movements.
I'm pretty sure that being able to change your momentum at will mid-air is more ninjalike than what happens in WOW.
It's not exactly controlled. It's slower than your turn rate, so the effect is more of a midair wiggle around that doesn't do anything except make you land with an unexpected direction and facing. Pretty much exactly what I'd do in real life if I tried to bunny hop and kite a pig or orc or something. Minus the falling down.
I don't recall if it was in at launch but I'm fairly certain it was in before the first expansion pack and I know it was before the second.
I even recall them moving the warp stones because too many people crowded around them, trying to get into RvR, made it so people in the back couldn't click on the stones. I think they were stones.
And CoH has collision detection, as someone else pointed out. It does add to the immersion and comes in rather handy at times. Around launch we had a big group of us fighting zombies in the sewers. We hit a room that was just swarming with them and were getting our asses kicked. After a wipe or two I stood in the doorway to the connecting tunnel, turned on repel (a PBAE toggle power that knocksbacks {as in sends flying 10 feet} anything that comes within range), and laughed as enemies bounced off of me while the Blasters lit up the whole damn room. Since their damage was grabbing more aggro the mobs just ignored me. It was glorious. The only downside to CD in CoX are Mastermind pets. When you've got an 8 man team, plus five pets from each Mastermind, those halls can get pretty damn crowded.
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I remember reading somewhere that they weren't planning on implementing /stick, so collision detection is likely their way of keeping the random jumping in figure eights that's so common in WoW from being a way to land whatever positional you want to trigger onto your opponent at any time.
But with a game like WAR where you're expected to have a video card and a broadband connection already? I don't see why they wouldn't implement player collisions.
There WILL be times when a player blocking another player will pose an important role. Sure you can run around, but it does affect you. It can help stop people from running away. You can also protect objectives, or block escape routes, or block entryways. You can surround people to make sure they die. Yes some of its affects suck for people, but thats how it should be. The thing about PVP and the good and the bad is it goes both ways. And the only people who hate stuff like that are the ones who dont have the ballsack to deal with not being the "hero" and being invincible or at least, being able to run around alone and stilll be successful because all the mechanics are on your side. Yeah it can be boring to get raped, but its also incredibly rewarding to rape someone because you might have stopped them in thier track by getting in thier way.
Its also ALOT easier to "own" land when you can actually physically protect it. Kind sucks if you DO have 40 odd people and one guy can just run on by because you are all transparent to him.
Collision detection ftw.
Go For Da Soft Spot - 0-10 ft - A strong melee attack. Only usable from behind your target.
choppas also have quite a number of ranged attacks that involve throwing their weapons
(note that all of this is of course subject to change, and may already be different by now, but it does show the general idea they're going for)
But, then I realized it's being published by EA.
This would be on par with William Wallace surrendering to England. Not because they are corporate bastards in their sports franchise empire, but because they destroyed Earth and Beyond.
Especially since everything I've read has said that EA is largely staying out of Mythic's way aside from throwing money at them.
not yet anyways
EA is probably hoping WAR becomes the next WoW. But WAR is PvP centric and most people just want to kill MOBs. So I can see WAR becoming the most popular PvP MMO but not the most popular MMO in my opinion. But then again I haven't paid much attention to how WAR's solo/PVE content is coming along so maybe they could be the next WoW if they can win over the PVE fan base? But I am just speculating.
Sure battle lines maybe absent from WoW, but tactics? I haven't played warsong gulch in ages, but at least when I did, we would feint towards one flag to split up the opposing group, flank groups that let us get behind them, I see no lack of tactics here, and that isn't even getting into attacking whom and when.
If you got some of your friends together, organized them a bit, then they certainly wouldn't go around all willy-nilly attacking anything that moves. I don't care what game, with what mechanics you have in that game, if you just select 10-20-40 people randomly for a particular battle, they aren't going to be organized. Ever. This is the main reason why games have objectives that are tuned to a smaller number of people. Its because the majority of players don't want to be warrior #10 whose job it is to stand in one spot and hold off enemy warrior #23 for a silly mage who he doesn't even know or care about can cast a fireball.
Again, taking from my experience in WoW, the person who wondered out thinking he could take that flag by himself, still got killed very quickly, yet amazingly those players never went away. Guild wars being the same way.
I think the consequences of disorganized behavior that the disorganized team loses. I've not seen any game, where this is not the case.
The thing is, with PvP it is all about who you are and who you're going against, if you get an organized opponent, then you have to make sure you attack at the right positions and at the right time or you'll lose. This, ironically, is much like real life battles. If army A attacks a disorganized army B, then guess what, army A is going to win with ease, and little use of detailed strategy. Only if both armies are organized and relatively equally balanced, are you going to get battles that possibly are written down and studied in the history books.
Now if you could maybe think of some innovative way to provide incentive in listening to a battle leader, something that a large number of players are willing to accept and like. Something that, while making them feel important and useful, yet still working as a team, something like...
Man what?! I really fail to see how player collision is going to help bring about your view of an idealistic strategy filled game where everyone listens to what you say. It may place more emphasis on positioning once battle breaks out, and this may very well maybe a very good thing and make the game more fun, but if you think this is going to eliminate idiots that run around like chickens with their heads chopped off, I don't know what to say.
The thing, if anything, that I think will make WAR more interesting PvP wise is simply that they are placing more effort into designing structured PvP that provides incentive to participate and succeed. If they make the interface to be able to efficiently communicate tactics and strategy, even better. Player Collision will change how the battle plays out. It will be different, and thus different strategies and tactics will emerge for those that are organized and put in the effort. But they will be just that, different tactics and strategies for people who are motivated to be organized and plan, same as just about any other game.
tl;dr - Player Collision won't help a community be more organized. Better incentives to be organized will.
WAR's devs have stated openly that they can't compete with WoW. They're not trying to make a copycat.
You must not be in the U.S. then, where Bush supplies it in great heaping quantities, with a main course of stupidity. *ahem*
Back on topic, in case the PvP question wasn't sarcasm, yes warhammer online has been touting itself as having great world and instanced pvp, and that other stuff too.
The way characters move (at least, as of convention demos) is quite a bit different than other MMOs; not as rigid as old school stuff like SWG or EQ, but not floaty flip-through-the-air-like-ninjas as with WoW. You can strafe a bit, but slower turn rates and an inability to spin mindair (you can move, but not spin and maintain momentum) keep characters facing each other and making smaller movements. Combine this with positional attacks and collision detection, and individual combats become a bit of a dance; you try to step around your enemy, or get the high ground and jump over them, but it's not possible to just run forward, jump, and fly through the air while blasting them with bow or spells.
It's just a piece, not the end-all, be-all of PvP combat.
I'm pretty sure that being able to change your momentum at will mid-air is more ninjalike than what happens in WOW.
It's not exactly controlled. It's slower than your turn rate, so the effect is more of a midair wiggle around that doesn't do anything except make you land with an unexpected direction and facing. Pretty much exactly what I'd do in real life if I tried to bunny hop and kite a pig or orc or something. Minus the falling down.
WAR is being made by the guys who made DAoC.
Therefore CD will work swimmingly in WAR.
Was it in at launch?
I even recall them moving the warp stones because too many people crowded around them, trying to get into RvR, made it so people in the back couldn't click on the stones. I think they were stones.
And CoH has collision detection, as someone else pointed out. It does add to the immersion and comes in rather handy at times. Around launch we had a big group of us fighting zombies in the sewers. We hit a room that was just swarming with them and were getting our asses kicked. After a wipe or two I stood in the doorway to the connecting tunnel, turned on repel (a PBAE toggle power that knocksbacks {as in sends flying 10 feet} anything that comes within range), and laughed as enemies bounced off of me while the Blasters lit up the whole damn room. Since their damage was grabbing more aggro the mobs just ignored me. It was glorious. The only downside to CD in CoX are Mastermind pets. When you've got an 8 man team, plus five pets from each Mastermind, those halls can get pretty damn crowded.