It would be awesome if they added in a third neutral faction to the mix. Imagine the carnage.
that would be sweet after all DAoC did have 3 factions. The only problem I see is it looks like the maps are made for 2 factions only.
as for the other guy I gues you would have Wood Elves, Bretonians, Dogs of War/Giants, and I also guess you could have Lizardmen and Vampire Counts.
for Destruction you would have Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Skaven, and Ogre Kingdoms.
not to mention they can always add more classes I mean they have all the diffrent schools of wizardy and the forces of chaos right now are only folowing Tzeentch there are still 3 more chaos gods.
Wood elves, Lizardmen, Brettonians and possibly Kislev or Tomb Kings would be Order
Other Chaos (the other three gods, beasts etc), Skaven, Vampires and Ogres (since they are currently working for the orcs) would be destruction.
Of those, the Asrai are a third elf faction, the other chaos factions have already been overlooked other than as NPCs. The undead are a tricky thing to tackle since the basic grunts are mindless, the ogres and brettonians have balance issues (being giant monsters or all mounted).
Skaven and Lizardmen are really the only armies they can do as an additional pairing like the originals. More likely would be new careers following that and new zones exploring the new races territories - they'll work as allies but not so sure on PCs.
Besides what are essentially humans, what other races are there on the "good" side of warhammer lore?
You think witchhunting and theocracies are "good"? There aren't any.
Is there any one left in RPG gaming that doesn't understand the convention of morally skewing the sides of "good" and "bad"? No of course not, so you know exactly what I mean when I say "good".
Really my question is if they make an expansion what races would be possible for "order"? Is that better? Because it's the same question.
I honestly believe this game has the potential to enlighten people to the fact that there isn't going to be a good side for this particular case. It's basically true of World of Warcraft, but it's much too subtle. Only people who've seen the arrogance and racism of the Alliance in Warcraft 3 can really appreciate it. I'm in the Beta, so I'll be able to tell you, but I honestly think Witchhunters or the depressing characteristics of the Dwarves, or the undiluted racism of the Elves will make it noticeably more apparent to the general population that "Order" isn't a much more PC alternative for a very specific reason.
This IP, Universe, and so hopefully as a result, game is infinitely darker and more graphic and serious than World of Warcraft's overall (at least by comparison) very lighthearted tone.
So I know very little about Warhammer (though I do like it, from what little I've seen), and I have a question.
Everyone talks about the various Chaos gods, are there Order gods as well? If so, are they as involved as the Chaos gods? Are the Chaos gods actually gods or just very powerful beings? Can a mortal ascend?
So I know very little about Warhammer (though I do like it, from what little I've seen), and I have a question.
Everyone talks about the various Chaos gods, are there Order gods as well? If so, are they as involved as the Chaos gods? Are the Chaos gods actually gods or just very powerful beings? Can a mortal ascend?
Yes and no. There are gods worshipped by the Order "faction", but in the metaphysic sense of the Warhammer world, the closest thing would be the Old Ones, who were entirely material.
Except the Gods of Law, which are confusing and not often mentioned. Chaos does include all things, including absolute order.
The whole concept behind Warhammer's metaphysics is duality; the Warp (or Realm of Chaos) is the opposite the Material, but the two mix and blend because of the Old One's warp gates. Magic in the Warhammer world is the Aethyr seeping into the material world, while thoughts and ideas from the material coalesce in the Warp to form Gods, Daemons, and spirits.
The most primal emotions form the most powerful gods; Khorne born of anger and a will to destroy the unknown; Slaanesh, compelled to try, taste, touch, and consume all things; Nurgle, a representation of acceptance, despair, giving up, and fear of change; and Tzeentch, Architect of Fate and the equation at the root of all ambition.
More intellectual concepts can take root in the Warp too, like worship of a warrior's strength as harsh and unreleting as the Winter (Ulric) or Ranald, patron of gamblers, ruffians, and ripping people off. Similarly, there's at least one example of a mortal soul, worshipped enough, (possibly) forming the seed of a Warp-God; Sigmar patron and founder of the Empire.
All of this stuff, of course, is also vaguely described and open for much nerd-debate.
You nailed it with your last sentence, the major god of the Empire is Sigmar, who was once a man but who's deeds were so great that by the time he mysteriously vanished, he was considered a god. And he's rather tangible if you look up the Warrior Priest's little hammer trick. The Knights of the Blazing Sun worship a female warrior god, so there's that as well. I'm sure the other order races do as well.
Yeah, between the stunties, elves, and various human nations, there's probably almost two dozen other gods. None as influential as the Big Four, though.
Why would the Vampire Counts help Chaos conquer the Empire?
It's not so much helping Chaos, as it would be taking advantage of what Chaos is doing to further their own goals. Kinda like how the Dark Elves are taking advantage of the Chaos Invasion in order to invade Ulthuan.
If the Vamps are added, it would be in a different Racial Pairing. They'd be attacking a different city, not Altdorf.
If you put them on Order's side. Who would they be paired with on Destruction? I can't think of a logical choice.
It's easier to make them Destruction and pair them with something like Brettonia. Bloodline would either be Lahmia or Blood Dragon I think, for that to make sense.
In theory, maybe you could add a Vampire class to the Empire. Which would be somewhat odd, but maybe feasible. It'd be Von Carstein, and might entail adding Sylvania as an extra, optional, Tier 3 or 4 zone.
Then, at a later date, you could add a different Bloodline to Destruction. Then you could have some Vamp on Vamp action .
SKAVEN.
Putting Von Carstein and Blood Dragon on Order, and Strigoi and Necrarch on Destruction would definately be interesting, though.
DisruptorX2 on
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2007
Lizardmen?
Tell me more.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Ridiculously overpowered army with no character at all. Its like Chaos, but with ranged attacks. So it gets its cake and eats it too.
Other than being smelly and worthless, their background is kind of cool.
Bioengineered automatons meant to serve a race of godlike beings who forged the world? Not so bad.
Morskittar on
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2007
But see, Godzilla was my hero. I desire lizardmen.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Why would the Vampire Counts help Chaos conquer the Empire?
It's not so much helping Chaos, as it would be taking advantage of what Chaos is doing to further their own goals. Kinda like how the Dark Elves are taking advantage of the Chaos Invasion in order to invade Ulthuan.
If the Vamps are added, it would be in a different Racial Pairing. They'd be attacking a different city, not Altdorf.
If you put them on Order's side. Who would they be paired with on Destruction? I can't think of a logical choice.
It's easier to make them Destruction and pair them with something like Brettonia. Bloodline would either be Lahmia or Blood Dragon I think, for that to make sense.
In theory, maybe you could add a Vampire class to the Empire. Which would be somewhat odd, but maybe feasible. It'd be Von Carstein, and might entail adding Sylvania as an extra, optional, Tier 3 or 4 zone.
Then, at a later date, you could add a different Bloodline to Destruction. Then you could have some Vamp on Vamp action .
SKAVEN.
Putting Von Carstein and Blood Dragon on Order, and Strigoi and Necrarch on Destruction would definately be interesting, though.
hmmm I hadn't even thought about doing vampire counts on both sides. But you would have to come out with diffrent units for each side no mirror images. Maybe have the Desctruction side have more zombies and undead units and have more vampire like units on the order side.... course how do you make it so they can go in the sunlight?
They definately don't like sunlight, I'm not sure if it destroys them though.
In the art, Vampire armies are always shown blackening the skies with thick clouds and swarms of bats. Would take an extremely strong vampire to do that, though.
They definately don't like sunlight, I'm not sure if it destroys them though.
I think the degree of ouchiness inflicted by sunlight differs between the bloodlines. I think Von Carsteins for instance burst into flames and die in sunlight (unless they're gorged on blood). But Lahmians can walk around in the light, but are somewhat weakened.
Also, if you read Liber Necris it explains why. Something about Nagash cursing them or something.
And Vamps are supposedly weak to Sigmar icons specifically because Sigmar "killed" Nagash once. It somehow carries over to all holy icons though.
Also, about the whole God/Aethyr talk. Nagash is a bit of an oddity. He effectively "rejected" the Aethyr and refused to die. By force of will alone basically. So he's functionally immortal now, even without his Ring, Crown and Hand. It just takes a while to put himself back together again once he's been "killed".
If Nagash had died properly, he probably would've become some sort of "force" in the Aethyr. But he wanted to stay in the Material Plane, so he did and now the Aethyr has no hold on him.
So I know very little about Warhammer (though I do like it, from what little I've seen), and I have a question.
Everyone talks about the various Chaos gods, are there Order gods as well? If so, are they as involved as the Chaos gods? Are the Chaos gods actually gods or just very powerful beings? Can a mortal ascend?
There aren't "Order Gods" as such. The Chaos Gods are a grouping of Gods who are, in short, existent because of us. They are personified chaotic forces inherently found in humanity. Khorne is bloodlust, rage, war, killing. Tzeentch is change, sorcery, manipulation, scheming. Nurgle is pestilence, decay, and despair. And Slaanesh is decadence and hedonism in general. It's a "Man vs Himself" type thing, to steal a line from wikipedia.
As for mortals ascending...the man who united the Empire, Sigmar, went on to ascend into divinity. How or whether that's even true, well that's debateable. But supposedly Sigmar, the patron deity of the Empire, was the man who built it in the first place.
Edit: Haha! Morskittar gets there first. Fucking Skaven.
Meet me on my vast veranda
My sweet, untouched Miranda
And while the seagulls are crying
We fall but our souls are flying
0
kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited September 2007
should I feel bad that I, having no knowledge of warhammer outside of playing dawn of war and reading some stuff about this and wanting in the beta badly, had a dream where I found/cared for a tiny runt of a kitten that I named nurgle?
should I feel bad that I, having no knowledge of warhammer outside of playing dawn of war and reading some stuff about this and wanting in the beta badly, had a dream where I found/cared for a tiny runt of a kitten that I named nurgle?
Your cat will never suffer the mortal ills of sickness. Papa Nurgle would be pleased at your generosity.
Who won't be making much of an appearance in this game, because they opted for the least interesting of the gods instead.
Khaine is the Druchii god.
EDIT: You are thinking Khorne.
Also, it's not like Khorne is horribly more interesting than Tzeentch. Khorne is kind of a one trick pony. Mind you, it's a damn satisfying trick, but still it's the only one he knows.
Who won't be making much of an appearance in this game, because they opted for the least interesting of the gods instead.
Khaine is the Druchii god.
EDIT: You are thinking Khorne.
Also, it's not like Khorne is horribly more interesting than Tzeentch. Khorne is kind of a one trick pony. Mind you, it's a damn satisfying trick, but still it's the only one he knows.
Khorne's followers fucking eyes burst from screaming and yelling, and an effective tactic at beating them is merely retreating in front of their faces, until they get so impatient that they kill themselves instead because their lust is so insatiable. That kind of awesome shit just doesn't happen for Tzneetch's gang.
Who won't be making much of an appearance in this game, because they opted for the least interesting of the gods instead.
The other three Chaos Gods are making an appearence. Mobs for them are anyway.
There's a whole dungeon thing dedicated to Khorne, the Bastion Stair. There's even a Bloodthirster!
There's another mob for Slannesh, that sounds like a PvE raid target type thing.
And we've seen pictures of Nurglings.
So the other Gods will be around, just not playable. Which is fine, because if you break it down Tzeentch is the most interesting in terms of what careers can be made.
Who won't be making much of an appearance in this game, because they opted for the least interesting of the gods instead.
The other three Chaos Gods are making an appearence. Mobs for them are anyway.
There's a whole dungeon thing dedicated to Khorne, the Bastion Stair. There's even a Bloodthirster!
There's another mob for Slannesh, that sounds like a PvE raid target type thing.
And we've seen pictures of Nurglings.
So the other Gods will be around, just not playable. Which is fine, because if you break it down Tzeentch is the most interesting in terms of what careers can be made.
I think Mythic explained their choice as such:
Khorne is a one trick pony, with no magic.
Slaanesh they wouldn't be able to do with a T rated game.
Nurgle is just bloody depressing and ugly. And, in general, people in MMOs don't like being ugly.
Tzeentch has awesome magic, has people who hit things with pointy bits, and is the embodiment of change, thus really giving them an angle at putting anything else they want with him.
Posts
that would be sweet after all DAoC did have 3 factions. The only problem I see is it looks like the maps are made for 2 factions only.
as for the other guy I gues you would have Wood Elves, Bretonians, Dogs of War/Giants, and I also guess you could have Lizardmen and Vampire Counts.
for Destruction you would have Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Skaven, and Ogre Kingdoms.
not to mention they can always add more classes I mean they have all the diffrent schools of wizardy and the forces of chaos right now are only folowing Tzeentch there are still 3 more chaos gods.
Other Chaos (the other three gods, beasts etc), Skaven, Vampires and Ogres (since they are currently working for the orcs) would be destruction.
Of those, the Asrai are a third elf faction, the other chaos factions have already been overlooked other than as NPCs. The undead are a tricky thing to tackle since the basic grunts are mindless, the ogres and brettonians have balance issues (being giant monsters or all mounted).
Skaven and Lizardmen are really the only armies they can do as an additional pairing like the originals. More likely would be new careers following that and new zones exploring the new races territories - they'll work as allies but not so sure on PCs.
Least that's my 1 pence worth
I honestly believe this game has the potential to enlighten people to the fact that there isn't going to be a good side for this particular case. It's basically true of World of Warcraft, but it's much too subtle. Only people who've seen the arrogance and racism of the Alliance in Warcraft 3 can really appreciate it. I'm in the Beta, so I'll be able to tell you, but I honestly think Witchhunters or the depressing characteristics of the Dwarves, or the undiluted racism of the Elves will make it noticeably more apparent to the general population that "Order" isn't a much more PC alternative for a very specific reason.
This IP, Universe, and so hopefully as a result, game is infinitely darker and more graphic and serious than World of Warcraft's overall (at least by comparison) very lighthearted tone.
Everyone talks about the various Chaos gods, are there Order gods as well? If so, are they as involved as the Chaos gods? Are the Chaos gods actually gods or just very powerful beings? Can a mortal ascend?
Yes and no. There are gods worshipped by the Order "faction", but in the metaphysic sense of the Warhammer world, the closest thing would be the Old Ones, who were entirely material.
Except the Gods of Law, which are confusing and not often mentioned. Chaos does include all things, including absolute order.
The whole concept behind Warhammer's metaphysics is duality; the Warp (or Realm of Chaos) is the opposite the Material, but the two mix and blend because of the Old One's warp gates. Magic in the Warhammer world is the Aethyr seeping into the material world, while thoughts and ideas from the material coalesce in the Warp to form Gods, Daemons, and spirits.
The most primal emotions form the most powerful gods; Khorne born of anger and a will to destroy the unknown; Slaanesh, compelled to try, taste, touch, and consume all things; Nurgle, a representation of acceptance, despair, giving up, and fear of change; and Tzeentch, Architect of Fate and the equation at the root of all ambition.
More intellectual concepts can take root in the Warp too, like worship of a warrior's strength as harsh and unreleting as the Winter (Ulric) or Ranald, patron of gamblers, ruffians, and ripping people off. Similarly, there's at least one example of a mortal soul, worshipped enough, (possibly) forming the seed of a Warp-God; Sigmar patron and founder of the Empire.
All of this stuff, of course, is also vaguely described and open for much nerd-debate.
SKAVEN.
Putting Von Carstein and Blood Dragon on Order, and Strigoi and Necrarch on Destruction would definately be interesting, though.
Tell me more.
Ridiculously overpowered army with no character at all. Its like Chaos, but with ranged attacks. So it gets its cake and eats it too.
Other than being smelly and worthless, their background is kind of cool.
Bioengineered automatons meant to serve a race of godlike beings who forged the world? Not so bad.
hmmm I hadn't even thought about doing vampire counts on both sides. But you would have to come out with diffrent units for each side no mirror images. Maybe have the Desctruction side have more zombies and undead units and have more vampire like units on the order side.... course how do you make it so they can go in the sunlight?
Icons of the Chaos gods are just as likely to hurt them as those of Sigmar, Ulric, or the elf gods, though. Which is cool.
In the art, Vampire armies are always shown blackening the skies with thick clouds and swarms of bats. Would take an extremely strong vampire to do that, though.
I think the degree of ouchiness inflicted by sunlight differs between the bloodlines. I think Von Carsteins for instance burst into flames and die in sunlight (unless they're gorged on blood). But Lahmians can walk around in the light, but are somewhat weakened.
Also, if you read Liber Necris it explains why. Something about Nagash cursing them or something.
And Vamps are supposedly weak to Sigmar icons specifically because Sigmar "killed" Nagash once. It somehow carries over to all holy icons though.
Also, about the whole God/Aethyr talk. Nagash is a bit of an oddity. He effectively "rejected" the Aethyr and refused to die. By force of will alone basically. So he's functionally immortal now, even without his Ring, Crown and Hand. It just takes a while to put himself back together again once he's been "killed".
If Nagash had died properly, he probably would've become some sort of "force" in the Aethyr. But he wanted to stay in the Material Plane, so he did and now the Aethyr has no hold on him.
Agreed.
http://www.blackindustries.com/pdf/articles/new-bloodlines.pdf
It's titled as apocryphal, so it's just completely canon. It's a guildeline for WFRP people to create their own Bloodlines basically.
It does have some kind of interesting information about Cathay though, not sure if that's 100% canon or not either though.
There aren't "Order Gods" as such. The Chaos Gods are a grouping of Gods who are, in short, existent because of us. They are personified chaotic forces inherently found in humanity. Khorne is bloodlust, rage, war, killing. Tzeentch is change, sorcery, manipulation, scheming. Nurgle is pestilence, decay, and despair. And Slaanesh is decadence and hedonism in general. It's a "Man vs Himself" type thing, to steal a line from wikipedia.
As for mortals ascending...the man who united the Empire, Sigmar, went on to ascend into divinity. How or whether that's even true, well that's debateable. But supposedly Sigmar, the patron deity of the Empire, was the man who built it in the first place.
Edit: Haha! Morskittar gets there first. Fucking Skaven.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
My sweet, untouched Miranda
And while the seagulls are crying
We fall but our souls are flying
Your cat will never suffer the mortal ills of sickness. Papa Nurgle would be pleased at your generosity.
Who won't be making much of an appearance in this game, because they opted for the least interesting of the gods instead.
Maybe if you're a foul heretic.
Khaine is the Druchii god.
EDIT: You are thinking Khorne.
My sweet, untouched Miranda
And while the seagulls are crying
We fall but our souls are flying
Also, it's not like Khorne is horribly more interesting than Tzeentch. Khorne is kind of a one trick pony. Mind you, it's a damn satisfying trick, but still it's the only one he knows.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
First story, Black Templars do it.
My sweet, untouched Miranda
And while the seagulls are crying
We fall but our souls are flying
Yeah, that's the idea.
The other three Chaos Gods are making an appearence. Mobs for them are anyway.
There's a whole dungeon thing dedicated to Khorne, the Bastion Stair. There's even a Bloodthirster!
There's another mob for Slannesh, that sounds like a PvE raid target type thing.
And we've seen pictures of Nurglings.
So the other Gods will be around, just not playable. Which is fine, because if you break it down Tzeentch is the most interesting in terms of what careers can be made.
I think Mythic explained their choice as such:
Khorne is a one trick pony, with no magic.
Slaanesh they wouldn't be able to do with a T rated game.
Nurgle is just bloody depressing and ugly. And, in general, people in MMOs don't like being ugly.
Tzeentch has awesome magic, has people who hit things with pointy bits, and is the embodiment of change, thus really giving them an angle at putting anything else they want with him.
I bought it tuesday and couldn't put it down, finished it yesturday. I highly recommend it.
I keep forgetting to pick this up too.