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Why don't you like Superman?
LibrarianThorne
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
This is a question for people who don't like, and even people who do, like Superman. What is your biggest problem with the character?
I realize that his power level is seen as something pretty ridiculous and hard to believe. But, given Thor, Spider-Man (especially recently), various other high-end Marvel characters I'm pretty sure this is just a relic of the Silver Age and this view is held by people who haven't read the Byrne and Jurgens era Superman.
Now, I love the character. I think there's no more quintessential superhero and I'm a huge fan of the epic sagas that Superman, occasionally, does so well. What I don't like, however, is the slow eradication of the '80s and '90s era stuff. Yes, Superman Blue was dumb. A competent Jimmy Olsen, an interesting Daily Planet staff, a more believable Clark Kent, and a Lex Luthor who was all but untouchable were pretty awesome. I also miss the crusader Superman, the one from the earliest issues of Action Comics. Superman used to fight against the mafia, wife-beaters, political corruption and those early stories have such an incredible vibe to them. The Superman-as-messiah analogue is all well and good, but I really think that the Man of Steel would be better served if the stories were brought back down to Earth.
I realize that his power level is seen as something pretty ridiculous and hard to believe. But, given Thor, Spider-Man (especially recently), various other high-end Marvel characters I'm pretty sure this is just a relic of the Silver Age and this view is held by people who haven't read the Byrne and Jurgens era Superman.
Now, I love the character. I think there's no more quintessential superhero and I'm a huge fan of the epic sagas that Superman, occasionally, does so well. What I don't like, however, is the slow eradication of the '80s and '90s era stuff. Yes, Superman Blue was dumb. A competent Jimmy Olsen, an interesting Daily Planet staff, a more believable Clark Kent, and a Lex Luthor who was all but untouchable were pretty awesome. I also miss the crusader Superman, the one from the earliest issues of Action Comics. Superman used to fight against the mafia, wife-beaters, political corruption and those early stories have such an incredible vibe to them. The Superman-as-messiah analogue is all well and good, but I really think that the Man of Steel would be better served if the stories were brought back down to Earth.
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That said I don't hate the character, I just find others like Batman much more interesting and easy to relate to.
Its fun in theory but gets old fast.
He's got all these crazy ass powers, and one weakness, and that's an uncommon mineral.
So yeah, his powers are a bit out there, but there's more to a superhero than how many bad guys he can punch. I mean, look at Spidey. Most of the fun of Spidey is that he's being a hero despite all of the personal drama he's dealing with. When writers treat Superman like that, it's interesting. He can be a punching machine in JLA and team up situations, but when it's just him, it's nice to see him just be a normal person dealing with the drama in his life.
The funny thing is that the same can be applied to Batman. As Bruce Wayne, he's generally not the most interesting character(again, except in Elseworld stories or "origin" stories) But the character of Batman itself is more interesting that Superman. His reasoning for doing what he does, his look, and his general attitude provide an easier persona for me to get into and want to read about. Unlike Supes, which whether right or wrong, I see as an almost invincible boy scout.
I hate any character who has so many abilities they either have to forget they have them, lose them in a Dues Ex, or whatever to have a story. This goes for Superman, any Speed Force Flash, Martian Manhunter, Sentry, and half of Authority.
The dude can go stop a bank robbery in Moscow and be back before anyone notices he left. He can hover in space and listen to everything being said on the planet and see everything not covered in lead. He can fly through space at FTL speeds. He can see microwaves and atoms with his eyes. There is no reason, no reason, the dude should take more than 3 seconds to beat anybody. I was going to say maybe Darkseid could put up a fight, but I don't think Darkseid has superspeed, and that's all it really takes. The dude is constantly, always holding back, and not just for fear of being lethal, but because if he used his abilities fully no plot would last more than 3 pages, 2 of them with him being Clark at the Daily Planet.
Sentry is sort of like Supes, except that he is batfuck loco. And IIRC everything good he does is balanced out by something bad that the void does.
Anyway, Superman. Like I said, a good hero shouldn't be defined by his powers. I don't see Cap as just some peak human conditioning and a shield. I don't see Spidey as spider powers. I don't see Batman as a rich dude with lots of conditioning, gadgets, and a good brain. By the same token, I don't see Superman as the sum total of his powers. There's a person there, and even if he's not in danger of death and dismemberment constantly, there's still drama to be had because he's a person reacting to events, personal and public.
If as a writer you fall into the trap of believing you have to account for all his powers, you're going to fail. Superman's powers aren't magic bullets, they're just weapons. Superman isn't always going to know exactly the right time and power or combination of powers that will solve a problem in a given situation. If anything, I'd think that his power set would actually get cumbersome for him to wield. He won't always be able to be everywhere at once or have his attention on everything at once. It's possible to distract him or get into his head. Kryptonite isn't his only weakness, and beating him up isn't the only way to beat him. As the writer, you have to wrap your head around the notion that being super powerful doesn't necessarily make any of your problems easier to solve.
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That would make an interesting story, but I suppose it runs the risk of having very contrived scenarios required to induce the sort of strain that Batman went through before he was defeated by Bane.
Re: Spider-Man
The reason I included him is because in so very many ways he's similar to Superman. Yes, he's invulnerable to bullets because he can dodge them effortlessly. I've seen scans of him dancing around point blank tommy gun fire. Sure, they don't bounce off his chest, but practically it's the same. Dude has more powers than you can shake a stick at (bone claws, organic webbing, super strength, super agility, spider-telepathy, occasional mutation). Similar, too, in that he's got one, maybe two really great villains and the rest tend to be uninteresting or one note.
I think you bring up an excellent point, though, about Superman's relative power level. Yes, it seems huge, but in the comics they handle it much better than in the movies since the movies have been going out of their way to do the whole CK-as-JC deal since 1978. Yeah, he's got super-hearing, but nobody could have something like that on all the time, so for him most of the world has to be tuned out just to save his own sanity. Yeah, he can go stop a bank robbery in Moscow but while he's doing that he can't stop a drug deal or a murder or any of the other thousands of crimes committed across the world, which plays into the Superman as failed messiah aspect which I find particularly engaging. Look at the death of Pa Kent in Superman: the Movie and think about that for a minute. Here you've got this guy who can fly, shoot lasers from his eyes, pick up cars, all that stuff and he wants to do good but realizes that every minute of every day he's failing. Ennis' treatment of Superman in his Hitman series was a perfect treatment on the subject.
I still believe that everyone is one good Superman story away from being a fan. Stuff like Secret Identity, For the Man Who Has Everything, Kingdom Come, The Death of Superman, For All Seasons are the greatest Superman stories ever told because they speak to something about the character of Superman and through him, about humanity in general. In For the Man, you see that despite all his legendary powers Superman would be content to have none of them if he could have a home and a family. For All Seasons shows, tellingly, why Superman is Superman and really gives a glimpse into the kind of character that Superman has. Such as with the dialogue between the young Clark Kent and the priest at the church in Smallville, I think that really sealed a love for the character, at least for me.
Then again, I can see why he's hard to get into. Look at Frank Miller's treatment of the character in DKR, DKSA, and ASBARTBW, the whole boyscout aspect of the character is very offputting especially to a society that likes rebellion. Pre-Crisis stories, by and large, are terribly boring reads even for me because so little happens (if you want to see staid Superman stories, read anything from about 1948 to 1977) and his power levels are purely insane. Similarly, I have a huge bone to pick with Busiek and Geoff Johns for the dramatic powerup Superman has experienced after Infinite Crisis. Super-intelligence worked in the '60s, but inserting it into the character now (along with the Superboy trope) does far more harm than good in my opinion. One of the very best things about Man of Steel (John Byrne's revision of Superman after the Crisis on Infinite Earths) is that it presents Superman as a relatively normal guy from a good home who has to deal with the fact that he's got all these powers. His first response after he saves an airplane on worldwide television is to run the hell away from everything because he gets so freaked out. That's the sort of character that can interest people who like Batman and Spider-Man, once again in my opinion.
In all seriousness, the argument that Superman is a bad character because he's overpowered is utterly asinine. The argument that Batman is inherently superior, or more realistic because he can't shoot lasers from his eyes but he can embezzle billions of dollars to fund an underground armoury without detection is almost as silly.
In terms of quality stories, there are are five or so usually accepted as genuinely superb pieces: DKR, Year One, Arkham Asylum (which I think isn't so much a Batman book as a Morrison fever-dream in script form), The Killing Joke and, I dunno, some think The Long Halloween is pretty decent. Personally, I'm, not a fan of the last two. AA perplexes me, and there's obviously some thought been put into the symbolism along with the pretty art, but I'd still argue that it just isn't that good. I'll admit there are a few interesting Elseworlds.
And yet, in such "debates" people conveniently forget (or simply haven't read) stories such as Kingdom Come, Red Son, Birthright, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, For the Man who has Everything, the current Action Comics/Superman run, Secret Identity and Superman for All Seasons before making the loft pronouncement that Supes "sucks".
Now Batman, yeah embezzling millions isn't easy but it is HIS company and as a playboy hes expected to be squandering cash left and right. What makes him stand out to me at least is that he has to try hard just to make small scale changes in one city. He can't dodge bullets or anything, hes one guy trying to make a difference. Supes can just roam down to wherever a bullet was fired 500 miles away, deflect them all and so on. If he wanted, he could make the entire world a crime free zone but he relents for obvious reasons. There isn't much challenge for him.
His power levels CAN be used as a reason not to like him since (depending on when you're looking) there's almost no being around that can pose a serious threat unless Supes is letting himself get beat on without really fighting back.
There aren't enough "big" characters that Superman fights often enough to have a serious sense of threat... and some of them are far less menacing than they used to be... almost to the point of being a joke (Darkseid for instance).
Aside from the Death of Superman there hasn't been many times when you looked at Superman in a story and really felt he could be in peril for some reason or other. And of course, to do something like that too often backfires as well.
Luthor is an excellent villain, but since he's destined to always fail, you don't see him as a threat.... it's the same problem US cartoons have. The hero always wins so there's never any real conflict. Superman needs to lose more often in some way. Batman is such a good character in many ways not because he can beat anyone "with prep time" but because no matter what, he ultimately pays a cost.
His wins are not always clean, and people associate that with the character far more than they do with Superman... there's a real sense of humanity in Batman because while he always stops the Joker (or whoever) in the end, the Joker has probably killed/maimed half a dozen people by then.
That said, the above elseworlds with Supes (like Red son) can really show you good things that can be done with the character. He wasn't beaten by force, he wasn't beaten by strength of will... sometimes all it takes to bring a character down to earth is making them take a real long look at themselves.
Perhaps the new Superman series is better in those regards and presents a more interesting take on his stories, but they still have to overcome the mindset that he's an overpowered boyscout that could only ever lose if he decides to not really give it his all... or it's a contrived plot point.
Spidey always holds back his maximum strength, he's said so dozens of times. If he didn't, he'd cave every mugger's skull in if he hit them. Batman always restrains himself, too. Like that famous scene in DKR, he knows all the different ways to kill a man but he doesn't use them even if they would be more expedient than the nonlethal methods.
Do you really think Spidey is pushing himself to the limit agianst the Rhino or the Vulture? Really? Outside of the Joker, Ra's Al Ghul and Bane, who amongst Batman's rogues galleries are any sort of threat to the Dark Knight Detective? They're more interesting not because they oppose Batman but because they're all fucked up in the head. Even Joker, as much as he's played up, is no real physical threat to Batman in any capacity. Bane and Ra's Al Ghul are interesting because they're actual physical threats as well as being just as smart, if not smarter, than Batman himself.
To devoir: Read the Death of Superman/World Without a Superman/Return of Superman trilogy. It's what Knightfall was based off of, in large part.
I bought Kingdom Come and some Batman TPBs to try and get into DC but, meh, KC didn't do it for me. It was good but it didn't make me want to read more DC.
Growing up I remember buying into the hype of the Death of Superman and bought every last issue but it didn't hook me.
I can't pinpoint it but DCs characters, in general, just feel flat compared to Marvel's. Not all of them, obviously, but Marvel characters I can usually relate to and empathize with.
Also Superman's rogues gallery is even crappier than Daredevils.
Look at the One Year Later arc he was in where he had no powers... a completely powerless Superman... almost entirely focused on Clark Kent... and frankly, it was still pretty damn boring. I have no idea why this is the case... frankly I just think that Clark/Supes doesn't have enough character flaws to be really interesting.
There's been plenty of stories where Superman has rejected the notion of spending every waking hour protecting the world and/or dismantling every corrupt government on the planet, simply because he believes it would deny humanity the right to set its own affairs in order (and essentially create a global Kryptonian dictatorship). Almost as many writers have scripted scenes where Kent has to accept that no matter how hard he tries, he'll never save everybody (as in a particularly excellent issue of Hitman).
And he cares, deeply, about humanity. Has an almost unlimited well of patience for every living thing on the planet, in fact. Characters like Batman are defined by their deep cynicism in regards to their fellow man.
He's even less, really, of an outsider than Bruce Wayne. My personal interpretation of Superman (the Kansas farmboy, Post-Crisis version) is one that has to remind himself that he isn't fact just another guy, but a super-powerful, beloved alien being from a dead world. That this modesty tends to limit his ability to lead as effectively as he should (see Kingdom Come) is to me an endearing foible. And he has a healthy social life, too. Wonderful parents, loyal friends and a devoted, intelligent wife to ground him when the stresses of both jobs can get too much.
And he tries to make the world a better place in his civilian life, too, dedicated reporter that he is (with or without powers he's willing to stand up to powerful men like Luthor, as he does OYL). He's certainly not the weak-willed idiot Frank Miller paints him as when given half the chance.
Batman, by contrast, would probably be a greater force for justice if he ditched beating up the same disfigured psychos every weekend and instead used his considerable fortune and influence in cleaning up the more ingrained of Gotham's problems. Considering his dedication and genius, Wayne Enterprises could be a phenomenal tool for justice worldwide, not just Crime Alley.
I should point out that I'm a big fan of Bats, but for the above reasons I can't help but love the character of Superman a whole lot more.
it doesn't do it for me
Jesus christ you dont know a fucking thing about Superman.
Wouldn't matter. Topic is why I don't like him.
He knows what the heck he's talking about. My best friend had never liked Superman, but after the JL/JLU shows, Morrison's JLA, and All-Star Superman he now holds Superman in higher regard than any character besides Batman and Hulk.
I respond to him because I'm not a teenager anymore, and my thoughts are less about getting revenge on people who've wronged me than about trying to make a better world for myself and the people I love. And all of a sudden the idealism and heart of Superman resonates more forcefully with me.
I'm telling you why you dont like him. You dont anything about him, you have this preconceived notion of a character that you hate, but that character is nothing like Superman.
Which reminds me, I really need to get up on these other Superman stories you guys keep mentioning.
Dislike bad stories, don't dislike characters.
Anally.
This is very true. And yeah, Superman's problem is really just that he hasn't had enough good stories written about him, and some of the really good ones were mysteriously mislabeled as "Supreme".
Strangely this is one of the things I like about Batman too. His noble, positive example, and is something that I think they portrayed well in Batman Begins and is often over looked with him.
Sorry to get back on topic what I don't like is when his stories are not creative enough. For someone with Superman's powers you've got to think outside the box and get beyond just beating a villain.
I agree. As cool as Miller's interpretation was, I think Mark Waid really got to the heart of it when, in Kingdom Come, he pointed out that beneath all the grimness and drama Batman at his core is a guy who doesn't want to see people die.
Seriously, I would kill to have DC get Alan Moore back for a Superman miniseries. Hell, he wrote only two Superman stories and those stories are among two of the best superhero stories ever written. Moore, like Morrion, "gets it."
jacobkosh makes an interesting point. Wolverine, Batman, and Spider-Man are characters grounded very much in the concept of vengeance, whereas Superman is one grounded in the concept of hope. Superman can't avenge the destruction of Krypton so he has learned to deal with that pain and move on as best he can, however the loss of his parents is something Batman cannot surmount. As teenagers, we're much more angry and frustrated with life in general, caught in that haze between childhood and adulthood. That's why it's easier to connect to someone like Peter Parker, I believe.
As we get older and mellow it, it becomes about what we can do to benefit the world and that's where Superman resides.
Klink, I really can't recommend Superman: For All Seasons enough. It is, in my opinion, the greatest introduction to Superman there is. It doesn't deal with the high cosmic stuff that crops up in other Superman comics, but rather the process the young Clark Kent went through to become Superman. To give you an idea, the last page of the first issue of the mini has Superman saving a kid right before he falls out of this high rise, and the kid says "nice costume." Superman turns, and with a grin, says "Thanks. My mom made it for me."
The issues centering on Lois Lane and Lex Luthor also do a damned incredible job of outlining not only those characters but what Superman means to each of them.
DarkWarrior, I think you'd get a kick out of Lex Luthor: Man of Steel. It's a real treat to see Superman portrayed as a villain and the lines Brian Azzarello gives Lex Luthor hold pretty close to your views.
I only recently got into DC, so I hadn't read a whole lot of Superman, but you just stated the main reason I DO like him. I love the stories that involve gigantic world-shaking problems, where even Superman, for all of his power, is still sorta out of his league. I love these kind of stories, because they remind me why I like reading superhero comics.