Oh, right. I just read that and was kind of WTF? Because it was talking about blatant game mechanics, in a game. But now I understand what you're getting at.
GenericFan on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying it worked better then. Take hacking. It was a lot better in SS2 because they really just said well fuck this, just play this contrived minigame.
Oh, the actual hacking was much better, though less "tense".
But the fact that there's a "Buy out" button makes it outright trumph SS2.
Here's a vibe I've been picking up in this thread since it got started:
"I've played System Shock 2, and BioShock isn't as good a game because I've played System Shock 2." :roll:
For the 17 of your who had the rig to play SS2: Give it a rest already... you played that game a long time ago... you will not be playing that game now or ever again... shut up about it already. Here's what you sound like: "yeah, my wife is hot, but I used to fuck this really hot chick back in college, and my wife ain't as hot as that hot chick I used to fuck." Yeah, I had fun with Doom, Wolfenstein and Duke Nukem, but they came out with new games and shit that are more fun than the stuff I used to play.
Before you ask, no, I did not play SS2--my rig back then could not load it. I do not feel like I missed some grand arrival of the human species by having not playd this game. Given where we're at with games now, I don't fucking care that I didn't get to play System Shock 2--it's an old game. Give it a rest. Stop judging BioShock by whatever orgasmic pleasures you experienced with System Shock 2--they are not the same game.
REASON - Version 1.0B7 Gatling type 3 mm hypervelocity railgun system
Ng Security Industries, Inc.
PRERELEASE VERSION-NOT FOR FIELD USE - DO NOT TEST IN A POPULATED AREA
-ULTIMA RATIO REGUM-
Yes, the body of the many sucked. We all know the body of the many sucked hard.
But it was the "more generic setting" that really helped it out. The audio logs that we're superfluous details seemed a little more mysterious because they were written by people who lived in space. Any any of the weird stuff that didn't quite fit was more easily excused by the sci-fi setting. It's like Zero Punctuation said, how the fuck does a steam powered turret develop any idea of allegiance? Rapture didn't score "suspension of disbelief" points nearly as well as the Von Braun did.
I mean thats just a part of the reason, but its a big part.
Zero Punctuation's/Yahtzee's review for Bioshock was his only weak attempt. He was paying lip service to his fans who wanted him to rag on games instead of praising them. The turrets develop allegiance? Good lord, you're going to use this as a negative? We can do that sort of picking and prying with EVERY game made. What's next, your character never had to use the restroom or tie his shoes?
As for the setting not being up to snuff. You're telling me when you get into that bathysphere, see the propaganda video by Ryan and see the city for the first time, you were not impressed? You didn't believe the game produced the setting well enough? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think that some need to abandon their little niche game baby that was System Shock and just admit that something has come along that not only rivals it but surpasses it.
I can't remember a game recently that has drawn this kind of strange over analysis. Shit, some games are just good.
Yes, but I think people are making extra effort because Bioshock wasn't criticized in the beginning. Someone had to come out and say, "You need to take of those rose-colored specs and realize Bioshock isn't perfect." I think Zero Punctuation's review makes valid criticisms (such as the fact that Bioshock is essentially System Shock with a new coat of paint), and some rather nit-picky claims (the aforementioned turret), but Bioshock has problems, and reviewers seemed to overlook them.
As for the setting not being up to snuff. You're telling me when you get into that bathysphere, see the propaganda video by Ryan and see the city for the first time, you were not impressed? You didn't believe the game produced the setting well enough? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think that some need to abandon their little niche game baby that was System Shock and just admit that something has come along that not only rivals it but surpasses it.
That's exactly the problem though. The game starts ridiculously strongly, but as you go through there are just little nagging problems which bring it down and then
it takes a major nose-dive after Ryan.
There's so much awesome in the game, but it's pretty clear that they ended up pressed for time to finish it, or dropped the ball on stressing some important details to the player (I don't remember seeing the luggage and people with their shit packed near the bathysphere).
Finished the game the other day - overall I was satisfied.
Endgame spoilers
The game went downhill after Ryan though, and I basically just wanted to get it over with. The game hits you with a great twist (although I, like alot of others, saw the Atlas/Fontaine thing from a mile away). But its like that point is an early climax, 3/4 the way through the game rather then at the end as it should be...things just run out of steam afterwards.
Also - on Hard difficulty I found the later leadhead splicers to be ridiculously tedious. The whole sudden difficulty jump was a bit crappy. I think a better way to increase the difficulty as the game progresses would have been to slowly introduce new and harder enemies. The first time you see the huoidini splicer and spider splicer are really great moments. More of those would have been awesome.
I agreed with everyone about the game starting to feel really weak after Ryan, but I don't feel that way anymore. The Proving Grounds isn't much fun and feels unfinished, but I took my time in Olympus Heights and it's as finely crafted as any other area in the game. It paints a vivid picture of the civil war, and is now my favorite place. Fontaine isn't as deep a character as Ryan, but he's stronger as a villain. Ryan is a guy I ultimately sympathized with, and that can't happen when he's supposed to be the main bad guy. So yes, Fontaine isn't very interesting, I didn't want to do anything but kill him, but that's the kind of guy that needs to be the final boss. The only place where the game feels rushed is the Proving Grounds.
Its strange that in a game about genetic modification giving you the power of the gods one of the toughest enemies is a dude with a machine gun.
Well, he's just as spliced up as you are.
Little Sisters are essentially Adam factories, and Tenenbaum (or is it Suchong?) talks about how tough they are, like little tanks. I bet that's a side effect of splicing, and it effects everyone
After starting to play through the game again I actually started noticing how often would you kindly kept popping up. I can't believe I didn't catch that it was odd the first time around.
Its strange that in a game about genetic modification giving you the power of the gods one of the toughest enemies is a dude with a machine gun.
Well, he's just as spliced up as you are.
Little Sisters are essentially Adam factories, and Tenenbaum (or is it Suchong?) talks about how tough they are, like little tanks. I bet that's a side effect of splicing, and it effects everyone
No, the side effect of whatever is going on in the girls to make them Adam factories is their virtual invulnerability. Tenenbaum specifically mentions that it's a shame they can't do this to an adult, as there is a lucrative market for a soldier that can't be killed. Now as for why they can't do it to an adult, I don't think they ever went into much detail, other than to say they just couldn't.
The side effect of splicing was that they mentioned it was like crack. You start wanting it more and more and eventually will do anything for a little more Adam to splice up. But not invulnerability.
Of course, that still doesn't explain the absurdity of the fact. You have a dinky guy who does nothing but fire a pistol and he can take a full clip from anything without slowing down. Meanwhile I'm Palpatine, Iceman, Human Torch, and The Pain all rolled into one, and I go down like a little bitch.
The Wolfman on
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
I agreed with everyone about the game starting to feel really weak after Ryan, but I don't feel that way anymore. The Proving Grounds isn't much fun and feels unfinished, but I took my time in Olympus Heights and it's as finely crafted as any other area in the game. It paints a vivid picture of the civil war, and is now my favorite place. Fontaine isn't as deep a character as Ryan, but he's stronger as a villain. Ryan is a guy I ultimately sympathized with, and that can't happen when he's supposed to be the main bad guy. So yes, Fontaine isn't very interesting, I didn't want to do anything but kill him, but that's the kind of guy that needs to be the final boss. The only place where the game feels rushed is the Proving Grounds.
But that was the beauty of Ryan as a bad guy - he was complex, and you did sympathize with him and it's why Fontaine was so boring after - he was a cardboard cut out. He was just bad because well, he was. There was no backstory really as to why, nothing about who he was - he's just a run of the mill jerk.
I'd have much preferred Fontaine to actually be dead, and Atlas to be a real person who was in fact the leader of some guerilla fighters against Ryan. Ryan murdered his family, Atlas tore up his city and it was a conflict of ideologies and both have a lot of innocent blood on their hands and excuse it for various reasons.
I agreed with everyone about the game starting to feel really weak after Ryan, but I don't feel that way anymore. The Proving Grounds isn't much fun and feels unfinished, but I took my time in Olympus Heights and it's as finely crafted as any other area in the game. It paints a vivid picture of the civil war, and is now my favorite place. Fontaine isn't as deep a character as Ryan, but he's stronger as a villain. Ryan is a guy I ultimately sympathized with, and that can't happen when he's supposed to be the main bad guy. So yes, Fontaine isn't very interesting, I didn't want to do anything but kill him, but that's the kind of guy that needs to be the final boss. The only place where the game feels rushed is the Proving Grounds.
But that was the beauty of Ryan as a bad guy - he was complex, and you did sympathize with him and it's why Fontaine was so boring after - he was a cardboard cut out. He was just bad because well, he was. There was no backstory really as to why, nothing about who he was - he's just a run of the mill jerk.
I'd have much preferred Fontaine to actually be dead, and Atlas to be a real person who was in fact the leader of some guerilla fighters against Ryan. Ryan murdered his family, Atlas tore up his city and it was a conflict of ideologies and both have a lot of innocent blood on their hands and excuse it for various reasons.
Re: Fontaine
I agree. It's obvious that Fontaine is there for a symbolic reason - human greed and whatnot. That's fine. But the character is just so bland and uninteresting. He doesn't exactly need to have a complex backstory, nor a large degree of sympathy; there are plenty of villains that are great without these elements (such as SHODAN, for one), but Fontaine was just bad. He was a wet fart, and I hated him not because he was an evil asshole, but because he was shit.
Cherrn on
All creature will die and all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai.
I agreed with everyone about the game starting to feel really weak after Ryan, but I don't feel that way anymore. The Proving Grounds isn't much fun and feels unfinished, but I took my time in Olympus Heights and it's as finely crafted as any other area in the game. It paints a vivid picture of the civil war, and is now my favorite place. Fontaine isn't as deep a character as Ryan, but he's stronger as a villain. Ryan is a guy I ultimately sympathized with, and that can't happen when he's supposed to be the main bad guy. So yes, Fontaine isn't very interesting, I didn't want to do anything but kill him, but that's the kind of guy that needs to be the final boss. The only place where the game feels rushed is the Proving Grounds.
But that was the beauty of Ryan as a bad guy - he was complex, and you did sympathize with him and it's why Fontaine was so boring after - he was a cardboard cut out. He was just bad because well, he was. There was no backstory really as to why, nothing about who he was - he's just a run of the mill jerk.
I'd have much preferred Fontaine to actually be dead, and Atlas to be a real person who was in fact the leader of some guerilla fighters against Ryan. Ryan murdered his family, Atlas tore up his city and it was a conflict of ideologies and both have a lot of innocent blood on their hands and excuse it for various reasons.
I was hoping for that too, although I would have been happy if you were actually Fontain.
I think the plot twist would have worked better without the reveal
Better to leave Atlas as the character he was and introduce a real moral dilemma where you
were dealing with a guy who used you for his own ambiguous ends, and your creator who truly saw a beautiful vision for his city: and in the end you had to differentiate between morally relativistic people embodied in Atlas and Ryan
arod_77 on
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
After starting to play through the game again I actually started noticing how often would you kindly kept popping up. I can't believe I didn't catch that it was odd the first time around.
I agreed with everyone about the game starting to feel really weak after Ryan, but I don't feel that way anymore. The Proving Grounds isn't much fun and feels unfinished, but I took my time in Olympus Heights and it's as finely crafted as any other area in the game. It paints a vivid picture of the civil war, and is now my favorite place. Fontaine isn't as deep a character as Ryan, but he's stronger as a villain. Ryan is a guy I ultimately sympathized with, and that can't happen when he's supposed to be the main bad guy. So yes, Fontaine isn't very interesting, I didn't want to do anything but kill him, but that's the kind of guy that needs to be the final boss. The only place where the game feels rushed is the Proving Grounds.
Interesting considering our differences earlier in this thread. I agree with this completely.
The thing is, objectivists can be real selfish, wackoid assholes, but you can't help but sympathize with them.
After starting to play through the game again I actually started noticing how often would you kindly kept popping up. I can't believe I didn't catch that it was odd the first time around.
You should probably spoiler that second half, for people that haven't gotten that far yet.
I agreed with everyone about the game starting to feel really weak after Ryan, but I don't feel that way anymore. The Proving Grounds isn't much fun and feels unfinished, but I took my time in Olympus Heights and it's as finely crafted as any other area in the game. It paints a vivid picture of the civil war, and is now my favorite place. Fontaine isn't as deep a character as Ryan, but he's stronger as a villain. Ryan is a guy I ultimately sympathized with, and that can't happen when he's supposed to be the main bad guy. So yes, Fontaine isn't very interesting, I didn't want to do anything but kill him, but that's the kind of guy that needs to be the final boss. The only place where the game feels rushed is the Proving Grounds.
But that was the beauty of Ryan as a bad guy - he was complex, and you did sympathize with him and it's why Fontaine was so boring after - he was a cardboard cut out. He was just bad because well, he was. There was no backstory really as to why, nothing about who he was - he's just a run of the mill jerk.
I'd have much preferred Fontaine to actually be dead, and Atlas to be a real person who was in fact the leader of some guerilla fighters against Ryan. Ryan murdered his family, Atlas tore up his city and it was a conflict of ideologies and both have a lot of innocent blood on their hands and excuse it for various reasons.
Re: Fontaine
I agree. It's obvious that Fontaine is there for a symbolic reason - human greed and whatnot. That's fine. But the character is just so bland and uninteresting. He doesn't exactly need to have a complex backstory, nor a large degree of sympathy; there are plenty of villains that are great without these elements (such as SHODAN, for one), but Fontaine was just bad. He was a wet fart, and I hated him not because he was an evil asshole, but because he was shit.
Whoa, no, Fontaine's way more than just a symbol for greed. Greed is good as far as objectivism is concerned, and if Fontaine was just greedy there wouldn't be any problem. Andrew Ryan is greedy, and we sympathize with him; in fact, just about everyone down in Rapture is probably greedy because they're all on board with the objectivist stuff. Fontaine represents something different, because the way he came to power is through "charity," his home for the poor. That's the opposite of greed, really. He wasn't running it for money, he was running it for power. Fontaine's obviously greedy too, but that's not what he's a symbol of.
I agreed with everyone about the game starting to feel really weak after Ryan, but I don't feel that way anymore. The Proving Grounds isn't much fun and feels unfinished, but I took my time in Olympus Heights and it's as finely crafted as any other area in the game. It paints a vivid picture of the civil war, and is now my favorite place. Fontaine isn't as deep a character as Ryan, but he's stronger as a villain. Ryan is a guy I ultimately sympathized with, and that can't happen when he's supposed to be the main bad guy. So yes, Fontaine isn't very interesting, I didn't want to do anything but kill him, but that's the kind of guy that needs to be the final boss. The only place where the game feels rushed is the Proving Grounds.
But that was the beauty of Ryan as a bad guy - he was complex, and you did sympathize with him and it's why Fontaine was so boring after - he was a cardboard cut out. He was just bad because well, he was. There was no backstory really as to why, nothing about who he was - he's just a run of the mill jerk.
I'd have much preferred Fontaine to actually be dead, and Atlas to be a real person who was in fact the leader of some guerilla fighters against Ryan. Ryan murdered his family, Atlas tore up his city and it was a conflict of ideologies and both have a lot of innocent blood on their hands and excuse it for various reasons.
Re: Fontaine
I agree. It's obvious that Fontaine is there for a symbolic reason - human greed and whatnot. That's fine. But the character is just so bland and uninteresting. He doesn't exactly need to have a complex backstory, nor a large degree of sympathy; there are plenty of villains that are great without these elements (such as SHODAN, for one), but Fontaine was just bad. He was a wet fart, and I hated him not because he was an evil asshole, but because he was shit.
Whoa, no, Fontaine's way more than just a symbol for greed. Greed is good as far as objectivism is concerned, and if Fontaine was just greedy there wouldn't be any problem. Andrew Ryan is greedy, and we sympathize with him; in fact, just about everyone down in Rapture is probably greedy because they're all on board with the objectivist stuff. Fontaine represents something different, because the way he came to power is through "charity," his home for the poor. That's the opposite of greed, really. He wasn't running it for money, he was running it for power. Fontaine's obviously greedy too, but that's not what he's a symbol of.
Yes, very good. That's what I got out of it too. The existence of Fontaine shows why objectivism wouldn't work, because people can always be overcome by their emotions and manipulated. Fontaine took advantage of the poor who chose him over Ryan, because Ryan said they were parasites and Fontaine "made them believe they were worth a nickel." Fontaine chose to manipulate people for his own gain rather than create something great, and the people fell for it.
Whoa, no, Fontaine's way more than just a symbol for greed. Greed is good as far as objectivism is concerned, and if Fontaine was just greedy there wouldn't be any problem. Andrew Ryan is greedy, and we sympathize with him; in fact, just about everyone down in Rapture is probably greedy because they're all on board with the objectivist stuff. Fontaine represents something different, because the way he came to power is through "charity," his home for the poor. That's the opposite of greed, really. He wasn't running it for money, he was running it for power. Fontaine's obviously greedy too, but that's not what he's a symbol of.
I was paraphrasing, hence the "whatnot"; I don't have a problem with his symbolic value, just the way it's carried out.
Cherrn on
All creature will die and all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai.
On Fontaine...(spoilers follow, though by this point in the thread if you're clicking on spoiler tags and you haven't finished the game, you deserve what you get)
Fontaine is the ultimate Objectivist. He carries Ryan's position to its logical extreme- he is a man who cares only for himself, period, absolutely. Someone like him would have had to be featured in the game at some point. It's too critical to their critique of objectivism. But he's not as interesting as Ryan or even 'Atlas.' And the reveal that Atlas is Fontaine, coming so soon after the Great Plot Twist with Ryan, just falls flat.
Dunno how to fix it though. I mean Fontaine didn't make for a bad villain, and I don't think the last 1/4th of the game sucks or anything (Olympus Heights and the Little Sister factory were both excellent; Point Prometheus...less so), but there was probably room for one more main character. Maybe one who represented parasite morality who is nevertheless flawed in the same way Ryan believed them flawed. Strengthening our sympathy with Ryan by showing us what he hated about humanity and making us agree. Pre-twist I thought Atlas would be that character.
Professor Phobos on
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Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
Fontaine is the ultimate Objectivist. He carries Ryan's position to its logical extreme- he is a man who cares only for himself, period, absolutely. Someone like him would have had to be featured in the game at some point. It's too critical to their critique of objectivism. But he's not as interesting as Ryan or even 'Atlas.' And the reveal that Atlas is Fontaine, coming so soon after the Great Plot Twist with Ryan, just falls flat.
Dunno how to fix it though. I mean Fontaine didn't make for a bad villain, and I don't think the last 1/4th of the game sucks or anything (Olympus Heights and the Little Sister factory were both excellent; Point Prometheus...less so), but there was probably room for one more main character. Maybe one who represented parasite morality who is nevertheless flawed in the same way Ryan believed them flawed. Strengthening our sympathy with Ryan by showing us what he hated about humanity and making us agree. Pre-twist I thought Atlas would be that character.
On Fontaine...(spoilers follow, though by this point in the thread if you're clicking on spoiler tags and you haven't finished the game, you deserve what you get)
Fontaine is the ultimate Objectivist. He carries Ryan's position to its logical extreme- he is a man who cares only for himself, period, absolutely. Someone like him would have had to be featured in the game at some point. It's too critical to their critique of objectivism. But he's not as interesting as Ryan or even 'Atlas.' And the reveal that Atlas is Fontaine, coming so soon after the Great Plot Twist with Ryan, just falls flat.
Dunno how to fix it though. I mean Fontaine didn't make for a bad villain, and I don't think the last 1/4th of the game sucks or anything (Olympus Heights and the Little Sister factory were both excellent; Point Prometheus...less so), but there was probably room for one more main character. Maybe one who represented parasite morality who is nevertheless flawed in the same way Ryan believed them flawed. Strengthening our sympathy with Ryan by showing us what he hated about humanity and making us agree. Pre-twist I thought Atlas would be that character.
What I don't understand though is how the poor were able to get to Rapture in the first place. Or rather, how the poor were able to stay in the city. I believed Rapture to be this place where like minded people left other societies to create something great. By having people be so willing to be suckered in by Fontaine and his charity makes it seem as though anyone and everyone was allowed to be in this city.
Reading into the game before it was released, that's what I thought Rapture was; the best and brightest trying to create something better away from those who would leech off the system. And only with the creation of Adam and plasmids did shit hit the fan. But it seems the place was turning to hell beforehand. Fucking thin mustaches, that's what's to blame
On Fontaine...(spoilers follow, though by this point in the thread if you're clicking on spoiler tags and you haven't finished the game, you deserve what you get)
Fontaine is the ultimate Objectivist. He carries Ryan's position to its logical extreme- he is a man who cares only for himself, period, absolutely. Someone like him would have had to be featured in the game at some point. It's too critical to their critique of objectivism. But he's not as interesting as Ryan or even 'Atlas.' And the reveal that Atlas is Fontaine, coming so soon after the Great Plot Twist with Ryan, just falls flat.
Dunno how to fix it though. I mean Fontaine didn't make for a bad villain, and I don't think the last 1/4th of the game sucks or anything (Olympus Heights and the Little Sister factory were both excellent; Point Prometheus...less so), but there was probably room for one more main character. Maybe one who represented parasite morality who is nevertheless flawed in the same way Ryan believed them flawed. Strengthening our sympathy with Ryan by showing us what he hated about humanity and making us agree. Pre-twist I thought Atlas would be that character.
What I don't understand though is how the poor were able to get to Rapture in the first place. Or rather, how the poor were able to stay in the city. I believed Rapture to be this place where like minded people left other societies to create something great. By having people be so willing to be suckered in by Fontaine and his charity makes it seem as though anyone and everyone was allowed to be in this city.
Reading into the game before it was released, that's what I thought Rapture was; the best and brightest trying to create something better away from those who would leech off the system. And only with the creation of Adam and plasmids did shit hit the fan. But it seems the place was turning to hell beforehand. Fucking thin mustaches, that's what's to blame
"I came here to flip burgers. Even supermen need to eat."
They have to have some people to do the menial work.
Couscous on
0
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
On Fontaine...(spoilers follow, though by this point in the thread if you're clicking on spoiler tags and you haven't finished the game, you deserve what you get)
Fontaine is the ultimate Objectivist. He carries Ryan's position to its logical extreme- he is a man who cares only for himself, period, absolutely. Someone like him would have had to be featured in the game at some point. It's too critical to their critique of objectivism. But he's not as interesting as Ryan or even 'Atlas.' And the reveal that Atlas is Fontaine, coming so soon after the Great Plot Twist with Ryan, just falls flat.
Dunno how to fix it though. I mean Fontaine didn't make for a bad villain, and I don't think the last 1/4th of the game sucks or anything (Olympus Heights and the Little Sister factory were both excellent; Point Prometheus...less so), but there was probably room for one more main character. Maybe one who represented parasite morality who is nevertheless flawed in the same way Ryan believed them flawed. Strengthening our sympathy with Ryan by showing us what he hated about humanity and making us agree. Pre-twist I thought Atlas would be that character.
What I don't understand though is how the poor were able to get to Rapture in the first place. Or rather, how the poor were able to stay in the city. I believed Rapture to be this place where like minded people left other societies to create something great. By having people be so willing to be suckered in by Fontaine and his charity makes it seem as though anyone and everyone was allowed to be in this city.
Reading into the game before it was released, that's what I thought Rapture was; the best and brightest trying to create something better away from those who would leech off the system. And only with the creation of Adam and plasmids did shit hit the fan. But it seems the place was turning to hell beforehand. Fucking thin mustaches, that's what's to blame
"I came here to flip burgers. Even supermen need to eat."
They have to have some people to do the menial work.
I hate making a fucking spoiler tree, but
These are people who are working, though. I don't deny the fact that society needs even menial labor, but the poor is what confuses me about the whole thing. Yes, the market dictates things, and people could lose their jobs, but if these are the people believing in the great chain, they would understand that they cannot accept charity form Fontaine, and should look to find a new job through either innovation or being hired by the companies that are succeeding.
On Fontaine...(spoilers follow, though by this point in the thread if you're clicking on spoiler tags and you haven't finished the game, you deserve what you get)
Fontaine is the ultimate Objectivist. He carries Ryan's position to its logical extreme- he is a man who cares only for himself, period, absolutely. Someone like him would have had to be featured in the game at some point. It's too critical to their critique of objectivism. But he's not as interesting as Ryan or even 'Atlas.' And the reveal that Atlas is Fontaine, coming so soon after the Great Plot Twist with Ryan, just falls flat.
Dunno how to fix it though. I mean Fontaine didn't make for a bad villain, and I don't think the last 1/4th of the game sucks or anything (Olympus Heights and the Little Sister factory were both excellent; Point Prometheus...less so), but there was probably room for one more main character. Maybe one who represented parasite morality who is nevertheless flawed in the same way Ryan believed them flawed. Strengthening our sympathy with Ryan by showing us what he hated about humanity and making us agree. Pre-twist I thought Atlas would be that character.
What I don't understand though is how the poor were able to get to Rapture in the first place. Or rather, how the poor were able to stay in the city. I believed Rapture to be this place where like minded people left other societies to create something great. By having people be so willing to be suckered in by Fontaine and his charity makes it seem as though anyone and everyone was allowed to be in this city.
Reading into the game before it was released, that's what I thought Rapture was; the best and brightest trying to create something better away from those who would leech off the system. And only with the creation of Adam and plasmids did shit hit the fan. But it seems the place was turning to hell beforehand. Fucking thin mustaches, that's what's to blame
Everyone did come to Rapture expecting a grand utopia where they would be loved and respected and all that jazz. But everyone forgot that someones still got to do the shit work, even in paradise.
so is there a fix for studdering sound or a patch yet? I finished arcadia, and the game is unplayable now in its current state with the sound. If someone specificly tries to talk to me it gets really out of sync and horrible......
I just want to finish the damn game....... Im not paying them for a game ever again after this and all the other problems they've caused me.....
Although a great game, Bioshock seems a little aimless to me, both on the large and small scale. On the large scale, it's not until the end of Hephaestus that you have a good idea of what the end of the game is, and it's not until the beginning of the last level that you see he's all spliced up. Contrast with, say, HL2, where you see the giant citadel at the beginning of the first level and know that you're going to blow it up.
On the small scale, remember Doom 3? You'd get a radio transmission "meet me at the photon labs" or something. Then there would just be a pile of corpses at the photon labs. And that happened each level. Bioshock is the same way, where you're constantly being sent out of your way to maintain (as Yahtzee puts it) the status quo. When you finally think you're going to accomplish something by popping an antipersonnel cap in Ryan's ass, you find out that he's not so bad and regret kiling him.
On Fontaine...(spoilers follow, though by this point in the thread if you're clicking on spoiler tags and you haven't finished the game, you deserve what you get)
Fontaine is the ultimate Objectivist. He carries Ryan's position to its logical extreme- he is a man who cares only for himself, period, absolutely. Someone like him would have had to be featured in the game at some point. It's too critical to their critique of objectivism. But he's not as interesting as Ryan or even 'Atlas.' And the reveal that Atlas is Fontaine, coming so soon after the Great Plot Twist with Ryan, just falls flat.
Dunno how to fix it though. I mean Fontaine didn't make for a bad villain, and I don't think the last 1/4th of the game sucks or anything (Olympus Heights and the Little Sister factory were both excellent; Point Prometheus...less so), but there was probably room for one more main character. Maybe one who represented parasite morality who is nevertheless flawed in the same way Ryan believed them flawed. Strengthening our sympathy with Ryan by showing us what he hated about humanity and making us agree. Pre-twist I thought Atlas would be that character.
What I don't understand though is how the poor were able to get to Rapture in the first place. Or rather, how the poor were able to stay in the city. I believed Rapture to be this place where like minded people left other societies to create something great. By having people be so willing to be suckered in by Fontaine and his charity makes it seem as though anyone and everyone was allowed to be in this city.
Reading into the game before it was released, that's what I thought Rapture was; the best and brightest trying to create something better away from those who would leech off the system. And only with the creation of Adam and plasmids did shit hit the fan. But it seems the place was turning to hell beforehand. Fucking thin mustaches, that's what's to blame
"I came here to flip burgers. Even supermen need to eat."
They have to have some people to do the menial work.
I hate making a fucking spoiler tree, but
These are people who are working, though. I don't deny the fact that society needs even menial labor, but the poor is what confuses me about the whole thing. Yes, the market dictates things, and people could lose their jobs, but if these are the people believing in the great chain, they would understand that they cannot accept charity form Fontaine, and should look to find a new job through either innovation or being hired by the companies that are succeeding.
When you are poor as fuck and need food and other necessities, I doubt you give a shit about philosophy.
so is there a fix for studdering sound or a patch yet? I finished arcadia, and the game is unplayable now in its current state with the sound. If someone specificly tries to talk to me it gets really out of sync and horrible......
I just want to finish the damn game....... Im not paying them for a game ever again after this and all the other problems they've caused me.....
Are you running sound from your motherboard? It started doing the same thing to me and I switched my sound card to my crappy, old as the hills Soundblaster card and the problem seems to have quit.
so is there a fix for studdering sound or a patch yet? I finished arcadia, and the game is unplayable now in its current state with the sound. If someone specificly tries to talk to me it gets really out of sync and horrible......
I just want to finish the damn game....... Im not paying them for a game ever again after this and all the other problems they've caused me.....
Are you running sound from your motherboard? It started doing the same thing to me and I switched my sound card to my crappy, old as the hills Soundblaster card and the problem seems to have quit.
Do you run a sound card, or is it Onboard Mobo sound? My mobo runs RealTek sound and RealTek just released a new driver. Check what ever the manufacturer is and install the newest driver. Worked for me.
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But the fact that there's a "Buy out" button makes it outright trumph SS2.
Neither, however, have anything on SS1.
*press "hack" button*
*wait a minute*
*Hacked!*
But I may be mistaken.
"I've played System Shock 2, and BioShock isn't as good a game because I've played System Shock 2." :roll:
For the 17 of your who had the rig to play SS2: Give it a rest already... you played that game a long time ago... you will not be playing that game now or ever again... shut up about it already. Here's what you sound like: "yeah, my wife is hot, but I used to fuck this really hot chick back in college, and my wife ain't as hot as that hot chick I used to fuck." Yeah, I had fun with Doom, Wolfenstein and Duke Nukem, but they came out with new games and shit that are more fun than the stuff I used to play.
Before you ask, no, I did not play SS2--my rig back then could not load it. I do not feel like I missed some grand arrival of the human species by having not playd this game. Given where we're at with games now, I don't fucking care that I didn't get to play System Shock 2--it's an old game. Give it a rest. Stop judging BioShock by whatever orgasmic pleasures you experienced with System Shock 2--they are not the same game.
tl;dr: enough BioShock/SS2 comparisons--they're getting old.
Ng Security Industries, Inc.
PRERELEASE VERSION-NOT FOR FIELD USE - DO NOT TEST IN A POPULATED AREA
-ULTIMA RATIO REGUM-
Zero Punctuation's/Yahtzee's review for Bioshock was his only weak attempt. He was paying lip service to his fans who wanted him to rag on games instead of praising them. The turrets develop allegiance? Good lord, you're going to use this as a negative? We can do that sort of picking and prying with EVERY game made. What's next, your character never had to use the restroom or tie his shoes?
As for the setting not being up to snuff. You're telling me when you get into that bathysphere, see the propaganda video by Ryan and see the city for the first time, you were not impressed? You didn't believe the game produced the setting well enough? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think that some need to abandon their little niche game baby that was System Shock and just admit that something has come along that not only rivals it but surpasses it.
I can't remember a game recently that has drawn this kind of strange over analysis. Shit, some games are just good.
There's so much awesome in the game, but it's pretty clear that they ended up pressed for time to finish it, or dropped the ball on stressing some important details to the player (I don't remember seeing the luggage and people with their shit packed near the bathysphere).
Endgame spoilers
Also - on Hard difficulty I found the later leadhead splicers to be ridiculously tedious. The whole sudden difficulty jump was a bit crappy. I think a better way to increase the difficulty as the game progresses would have been to slowly introduce new and harder enemies. The first time you see the huoidini splicer and spider splicer are really great moments. More of those would have been awesome.
https://medium.com/@alascii
Well, he's just as spliced up as you are.
The side effect of splicing was that they mentioned it was like crack. You start wanting it more and more and eventually will do anything for a little more Adam to splice up. But not invulnerability.
Of course, that still doesn't explain the absurdity of the fact. You have a dinky guy who does nothing but fire a pistol and he can take a full clip from anything without slowing down. Meanwhile I'm Palpatine, Iceman, Human Torch, and The Pain all rolled into one, and I go down like a little bitch.
I'd have much preferred Fontaine to actually be dead, and Atlas to be a real person who was in fact the leader of some guerilla fighters against Ryan. Ryan murdered his family, Atlas tore up his city and it was a conflict of ideologies and both have a lot of innocent blood on their hands and excuse it for various reasons.
Re: Fontaine
were dealing with a guy who used you for his own ambiguous ends, and your creator who truly saw a beautiful vision for his city: and in the end you had to differentiate between morally relativistic people embodied in Atlas and Ryan
I just thought of it as a manner of speaking...
Interesting considering our differences earlier in this thread. I agree with this completely.
You should probably spoiler that second half, for people that haven't gotten that far yet.
I was paraphrasing, hence the "whatnot"; I don't have a problem with his symbolic value, just the way it's carried out.
Dunno how to fix it though. I mean Fontaine didn't make for a bad villain, and I don't think the last 1/4th of the game sucks or anything (Olympus Heights and the Little Sister factory were both excellent; Point Prometheus...less so), but there was probably room for one more main character. Maybe one who represented parasite morality who is nevertheless flawed in the same way Ryan believed them flawed. Strengthening our sympathy with Ryan by showing us what he hated about humanity and making us agree. Pre-twist I thought Atlas would be that character.
^ You might want to rethink your post a bit.
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Why?
Get what I'm saying?
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I see. I'll add in extra warning.
Still, if anyone is reading this thread and hasn't finished the game, STOP. Go finish the game then come read the thread.
If you click on spoiler tags in a thread on a game you haven't finished, I'm not going to shed any tears if you've had the game ruined for you.
Reading into the game before it was released, that's what I thought Rapture was; the best and brightest trying to create something better away from those who would leech off the system. And only with the creation of Adam and plasmids did shit hit the fan. But it seems the place was turning to hell beforehand. Fucking thin mustaches, that's what's to blame
They have to have some people to do the menial work.
I hate making a fucking spoiler tree, but
I just want to finish the damn game....... Im not paying them for a game ever again after this and all the other problems they've caused me.....
On the small scale, remember Doom 3? You'd get a radio transmission "meet me at the photon labs" or something. Then there would just be a pile of corpses at the photon labs. And that happened each level. Bioshock is the same way, where you're constantly being sent out of your way to maintain (as Yahtzee puts it) the status quo. When you finally think you're going to accomplish something by popping an antipersonnel cap in Ryan's ass, you find out that he's not so bad and regret kiling him.
Are you running sound from your motherboard? It started doing the same thing to me and I switched my sound card to my crappy, old as the hills Soundblaster card and the problem seems to have quit.
Do you run a sound card, or is it Onboard Mobo sound? My mobo runs RealTek sound and RealTek just released a new driver. Check what ever the manufacturer is and install the newest driver. Worked for me.