Need advice on how to make a kid stop being so bad

LifeVirusZEROLifeVirusZERO Registered User
edited August 2007 in Help / Advice Forum
My brother's kid has recently been being really bad. Before I get into this, I just want to point out the fact that my brother is an EXCELLENT father, he's 24 years old and has had plenty of experience in helping raise our younger siblings. Him and his wife have their own house and everything, so that shouldn't be an issue. The kid, 4 years old, breaks stuff, hits other kids, doesn't listen, won't sit still, etc. Here's a couple examples of what the kid has done. The other day he sprayed a baby in the face with carpet cleaner and the baby's mom had to take him to the emergency room. Today, he punched his mom in the face!

My brother has tried many combinations of punishments, spanking, yelling, the "dad" stare, guilt trips, even positive reinforcement. This kid is different though. He's sneaky. Instead of him learning a lesson from getting punished, he will just find other ways to accomplish his goals. We don't know if he is doing it just because he wants to, or if he is doing it BECAUSE he knows it's bad. For the most part, he's good around my brother but as soon as he leaves, he has the urge to do bad.

Is there something my brother should be doing, or not doing?

*EDIT* He does plan to take the kid to a professional but I wanted to ask you guys for any advice I could give him.

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Posts

  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Yeah, he's not taking the kid to a trained professional.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • FellhandFellhand Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    In D&D ElJeffe just mentioned how he 'sits' on his kid when she's bad (I think it's the achievements thread. It actually sounded like a good idea). I would look that up and also send him a PM.

    Other then that, your bro might have to contact a professional.

    Edit: This thread http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=33986&page=6

    Fellhand on
  • LifeVirusZEROLifeVirusZERO Registered User
    edited August 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    Yeah, he's not taking the kid to a trained professional.

    Right, I meant to add in there that he was going to do that, but I figured I'd ask around for any advice.

    LifeVirusZERO on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    :|

    The Spanking/Yelling was probably a bad idea. I responded so heavily to "scary" behavior on my parents part that to this day that it makes me a perfect house guest; I never leave a trace of my presence behind. My sister just became a casual liar from the same stimulus, and hid things, and now talks back and is rude -constantly-.

    How much time does the kid spend with his parents? Is the sneakiness when their backs are turned, or when they're actually -away-? How much energy burning does the kid get in? The parents may need to pick up hiking as a hobby. Hard to be a pain in the ass when you're too sore to move.

    That said, the hitting thing isn't a good sign, and it's one I can't say anything about.

    Incenjucar on
  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The kid doesn't respect his parents. They need to never give in to his demands or whining. The kid needs to realize who is boss and who controls what. He should only act, behave, and do anything according to you. You spank his ass in public as soon as he screws up. Kids get embarrassed too.

    mastman on
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  • TheungryTheungry Registered User
    edited August 2007
    I am in no way a professional, and I am obviously only seeing a small window onto the situation. So, take this with a grain of salt. As stated above, professional help should be sought regardless of any advice or insight gained in the short term.

    It seems from your description that something has already gone horribly wrong with this kid's life. I would immediately and discretely investigate the possibility that the child has been or is being abused by someone in his life.

    It takes something serious for children to relish in causing others pain... from what I understand, that is a learned behavior.

    Of course, he may just have learned that causing trouble was a great way to consistently get attention. Thats still a big problem, but a totally separate order of magnitude.

    Theungry on
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  • FellhandFellhand Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    mastman wrote: »
    You spank his ass in public as soon as he screws up.

    See, I don't think spanking is the way to go. This is why he needs to contact a professional.

    Fellhand on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Theungry wrote: »
    I am in no way a professional, and I am obviously only seeing a small window onto the situation. So, take this with a grain of salt. As stated above, professional help should be sought regardless of any advice or insight gained in the short term.

    It seems from your description that something has already gone horribly wrong with this kid's life. I would immediately and discretely investigate the possibility that the child has been or is being abused by someone in his life.

    It takes something serious for children to relish in causing others pain... from what I understand, that is a learned behavior.

    Of course, he may just have learned that causing trouble was a great way to consistently get attention. Thats still a big problem, but a totally separate order of magnitude.

    This was my concern as well... additionally, the kid is expressing some behaviors that some might consider sociopathic... and 4 years old is certainly not to early to start showing those signs.

    If he's had as a good an upbringing as the OP says, that might be a serious concern.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Fellhand wrote: »
    mastman wrote: »
    You spank his ass in public as soon as he screws up.

    See, I don't think spanking is the way to go. This is why he needs to contact a professional.

    dropkicks? The first ass whooping a kid should undertake should be from his parents because it's out of love. Raising a bunch of pussies these days.

    I'm not a professional obviously, but you should go see some pussy psychiatrist professional who can sedate the kid in downers for the rest of his life or discipline his ass into normalcy like the rest of us.

    I do so enjoy offering my stubborn, inexperienced opinion on child raising. I guess I'm just old fashioned

    mastman on
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  • LifeVirusZEROLifeVirusZERO Registered User
    edited August 2007
    mastman wrote: »
    Fellhand wrote: »
    mastman wrote: »
    You spank his ass in public as soon as he screws up.

    See, I don't think spanking is the way to go. This is why he needs to contact a professional.

    dropkicks? The first ass whooping a kid should undertake should be from his parents because it's out of love. Raising a bunch of pussies these days.

    I'm not a professional obviously, but you should go see some pussy psychiatrist professional who can sedate the kid in downers for the rest of his life or discipline his ass into normalcy like the rest of us.

    I do so enjoy offering my stubborn, inexperienced opinion on child raising.

    My friend told me the chinese way to raise kids. Beat the kid more.

    LifeVirusZERO on
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  • RocketSauceRocketSauce Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I'll throw some advice in because this is what I do. I work with kids age 3-18 at a mental health center to work on those exact behaviors. Your brother can bring his kid in to whatever county mental health center they have and see if he would qualify for case management/therapy services.

    Did this kid have something happen recently that would've caused these behaviors?

    Those behaviors are usually an adaptation to their environment. If he lives in an environment where yelling, hitting, arguing are acceptable, then he will continue doing it. He might also have a personality disorder. Which the right medication could help with.

    Positive Behavioral Supports (incentives for good behaviors) have been shown to work well, and that's what we use. We stress natural consequences for actions/behaviors, and the positive benefits they can achieve from appropriate behaviors.

    RocketSauce on
  • OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    mastman wrote: »
    Fellhand wrote: »
    mastman wrote: »
    You spank his ass in public as soon as he screws up.

    See, I don't think spanking is the way to go. This is why he needs to contact a professional.

    dropkicks? The first ass whooping a kid should undertake should be from his parents because it's out of love. Raising a bunch of pussies these days.

    I'm not a professional obviously, but you should go see some pussy psychiatrist professional who can sedate the kid in downers for the rest of his life or discipline his ass into normalcy like the rest of us.

    I do so enjoy offering my stubborn, inexperienced opinion on child raising.

    My friend told me the chinese way to raise kids. Beat the kid more.

    2nded.

    In all seriousness, my father beat me when I screwed up, and I never talked back to him after that. 20 years later and I'm still secretly planning my revenge.

    When I have to babysit 5 year old relatives that misbehave, I hold them upside down by one hand, and make them swear to not screw up again or they're getting dropped. They don't misbehave the rest of the night.

    Their minds are still malleable, they have to believe their elders are juggernauts with hair trigger tempers.

    Octoparrot on
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  • LifeVirusZEROLifeVirusZERO Registered User
    edited August 2007
    Did this kid have something happen recently that would've caused these behaviors?

    No. Nothing like that at all.

    LifeVirusZERO on
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  • precisionkprecisionk Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Perhaps try instead of anything physical, take away the things he loves the most, ala toys, watching tv, playing with friends etc.


    Most kids would respond I would assume if you took their tv rights away.

    precisionk on
  • TheungryTheungry Registered User
    edited August 2007
    Wow, I'm kind of shocked at the violence and intimidation techniques being suggested. I would strongly advise against any of those unless you want to teach this child that bullying is a good way to solve interpersonal conflicts.

    Theungry on
    Unfortunately, western cultures frown upon arranged marriages, so the vast majority of people have to take risks in order to get into relationships.
  • zhen_roguezhen_rogue Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I was spanked as a kid, all of 5 or 6 times.
    It only takes a few good whacks, at which point "the look" will suffice from then on out.
    I was a very, very well behaved kid, and was often complimented to by other adults.

    I'm glad my parents decided to use corporal punishment when I was really acting like an ass.
    I don't think I would have responded as well (or at all) if they would have tried negotiation or taking away toys/privledges, etc.

    I fully plan to spank my kids when they are old enough to know better (2+), and are willfully disobeying when they've already been asked to stop.

    I disagree with spanking when the child is under 2, and disagree with spanking as the first reaction to disobedience.
    Spanking should be used after all other options are exhausted/ignored/disobeyed.

    zhen_rogue on
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited August 2007
    brilliantly, this shows up on the index as "Need advice on how to make a kid..."

    Thrust dude

    Thrust

    Tube on
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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    precisionk wrote: »
    Perhaps try instead of anything physical, take away the things he loves the most, ala toys, watching tv, playing with friends etc.


    Most kids would respond I would assume if you took their tv rights away.

    This has strong potential to not work, because the kid can just ignore you.

    Give em an option can work. Grounded from TV for a week, or you come over here and I beat the shit out of your ass. They get to choose.

    I'm a fan of the physical punishment thing, as long as it is for a valid reason and the kid understands why they are being punished. Otherwise, it just harms the situation rather than helps it.

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  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Seriously, I'm one of the most polite and well-behaved person I know, and I always have been, from childhood to adulthood (thru adolescence) and the only form of spanking I ever received was taps on my hands or diaper (ass) when I was a little kid. The goal wasn't to hurt, just to show "Nope, what you just did right now was wrong".

    I'm totally in agreement that today's parents are fucking pussies and kids are raised to be kings because nobody ever lifts a finger anymore, but spanking is the other extreme, not the norm.

    Djiem on
  • TheungryTheungry Registered User
    edited August 2007
    zhen_rogue wrote: »
    I was spanked as a kid, all of 5 or 6 times.
    It only takes a few good whacks, at which point "the look" will suffice from then on out.
    I was a very, very well behaved kid, and was often complimented to by other adults.

    I'm glad my parents decided to use corporal punishment when I was really acting like an ass.
    I don't think I would have responded as well (or at all) if they would have tried negotiation or taking away toys/privledges, etc.

    I fully plan to spank my kids when they are old enough to know better (2+), and are willfully disobeying when they've already been asked to stop.

    I was spanked and intimidated as you describe by my father as a kid, and I was complimented by other adults at my behavior... but I lived in fear and emotional trauma from my earliest memories up until I was 18. It took me years to overcome parricidal fantasies.

    Theungry on
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  • FellhandFellhand Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Djiem wrote: »
    I'm totally in agreement that today's parents are fucking pussies and kids are raised to be kings because nobody ever lifts a finger anymore, but spanking is the other extreme, not the norm.


    It's not that there is a lack of discipline or punishment, it's that a lot of people don't invest the proper amount of time into their children while raising them.

    I know people that were never touched and were just loved by their parents and they are perfectly fine. I also know people that were never touched and the TV was basically a babysitter and they are some of the biggest low lifes I know.

    Fellhand on
  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Theungry wrote: »
    I was spanked and intimidated as you describe by my father as a kid, and I was complimented by other adults at my behavior... but I lived in fear and emotional trauma from my earliest memories up until I was 18. It took me years to overcome parricidal fantasies.

    You should fear your parents if you fuck up because you know you fucked up and you deserve that ass kickin you're about to get

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  • ZeeBeeKayZeeBeeKay Registered User
    edited August 2007
    So, I'm not a professional, nor do I have kids, so I'm pretty much unqualified, but it seems to me that hitting a child (and that is what spanking is) who is hitting isn't a good idea. At four you're not showing him that hitting hurts, you're showing him that hitting is okay.

    Other than that, I've no clue. Good luck to your brother and his wife, though. Kids like that are hell to deal with, and some times you just want to strangle the little buggers and get it over with.

    ZeeBeeKay on
  • UseskaforevilUseskaforevil Registered User
    edited August 2007
    precisionk wrote: »
    Perhaps try instead of anything physical, take away the things he loves the most, ala toys, watching tv, playing with friends etc.

    The first time i read that as "take away the things he loves the most, allah...."
    and i thought wow, the kids being bad so you take away his god . this has potential.

    Useskaforevil on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    A lot of the advice in this thread is a fucking disaster.

    Yeah, go ahead and hit your kid for hitting, it's a great idea. Maybe he'll turn out like Mastman, who seems so well adjusted :roll:

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • zhen_roguezhen_rogue Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    With regards to the OP's intent, it sounds like this isn't an issue of spanking vs. not - it's more of an issue with no punishment of any kind seems to work.

    My only conclusion (guess) is that he's very very angry with , bored with , scared with, or confused with some aspect of his home life.
    I'm also gonna bet that no form of punishment or negotiation will stop this kid's behavior - until the root of the problem is discovered.

    If this is the case, a 3rd party counsellor might have some luck unlocking the kid's focus/problem after several sessions.

    zhen_rogue on
  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Some of the responses in this thread are really disturbing. Man it's not even legal to spank kids over here.

    Kids don't start behaving like the one mentioned in the OP just because you don't beat them enough. Conversely, making them suppress that behavior out of fear does nothing to fix the underlying problem, and can make it worse.

    Bliss 101 on
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  • ZeeBeeKayZeeBeeKay Registered User
    edited August 2007
    mastman wrote: »
    Theungry wrote: »
    I was spanked and intimidated as you describe by my father as a kid, and I was complimented by other adults at my behavior... but I lived in fear and emotional trauma from my earliest memories up until I was 18. It took me years to overcome parricidal fantasies.

    You should fear your parents if you fuck up because you know you fucked up and you deserve that ass kickin you're about to get

    Umm...no. Spanking is not meant to be used as a fear tactic, nor should children ever be spanked while the parent is angry. Spankings are for a very specific age group (I think there's some disagreement on which age group it is, but it's somewhere around four to six), and should only be a light touch with an open hand, not an "ass kickin". It's to give the child feedback after they've done something really wrong (like run out in front of traffic) WITHOUT INJURY, not physically harm and abuse the child every single time they're not perfect. Also, I think that spanking is supposed to be followed up with being sent to a room, time out, etc.

    ZeeBeeKay on
  • brandotheninjamasterbrandotheninjamaster Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    precisionk wrote: »
    Perhaps try instead of anything physical, take away the things he loves the most, ala toys, watching tv, playing with friends etc.

    The first time i read that as "take away the things he loves the most, allah...."
    and i thought wow, the kids being bad so you take away his god . this has potential.

    I just lol'd and almost got in trouble at work. That is some good comedy though.

    "You punched your mother?!? No God for you today!!!"
    "Aw but dad-"
    "No butts. God doesn't like mama punchers. Go to your room."

    brandotheninjamaster on
  • precisionkprecisionk Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    precisionk wrote: »
    Perhaps try instead of anything physical, take away the things he loves the most, ala toys, watching tv, playing with friends etc.

    The first time i read that as "take away the things he loves the most, allah...."
    and i thought wow, the kids being bad so you take away his god . this has potential.

    That is pretty damn funny.

    precisionk on
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Spanking =/= beating. It's a semi painful smack on the ass to let the kid know he's doing wrong. A 3 year old won't understand all your words and reasonings as to why he is doing something wrong. He will understand a firm 'no' followed with a small spanking (if the 'no!' doesn't work).

    edit: of course, try and explain why he's doing wrong both before and after a spanking. Even if he/she doesn't understand, he/she will at least know that you're trying to tell them something about their behaviour.

    Xaquin on
  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    A lot of the advice in this thread is a fucking disaster.

    Yeah, go ahead and hit your kid for hitting, it's a great idea. Maybe he'll turn out like Mastman, who seems so well adjusted :roll:

    I dunno, my parents spanked me and I wasn't violent as a kid. I guess it requires intelligence and a good upbringing

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  • precisionkprecisionk Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    precisionk wrote: »
    Perhaps try instead of anything physical, take away the things he loves the most, ala toys, watching tv, playing with friends etc.


    Most kids would respond I would assume if you took their tv rights away.

    This has strong potential to not work, because the kid can just ignore you.

    Give em an option can work. Grounded from TV for a week, or you come over here and I beat the shit out of your ass. They get to choose.

    I'm a fan of the physical punishment thing, as long as it is for a valid reason and the kid understands why they are being punished. Otherwise, it just harms the situation rather than helps it.

    Oh It would. It did for me. Grounded to your room, no tv certainly got me realize my mistake.

    Take his toys away and lock em up. Take away any type of candy/dessert.

    Also I am a fan of tabasco sauce/soap in the mouth if he mouths off.

    precisionk on
  • TavTav Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Hmph, I'm by no means an expert (I'm 16, and haven't even lifted up a baby before) but maybe try ignoring him when hes throwing a tantrum. If he's only doing it for attention. let him know that hes not going to get any if he behaves in that way. My Mom did that with me, if I didn't want to go somewhere she'd just walk out the door (I'm sure she always waited outside it with a smug grin on her face) and sure as fuck I'd be out that door quicker then The Flash.

    Does the kid get much attention? Does he spend much time with his parents, or better yet, does he spend much fun time with his parents? Maybe all this acting out is a way for him get get them to spend time with them, because if you spray a baby in the face with carpet cleaner you're guaranteed to get attention from the grown-ups. Maybe if they did something together, like watching a movie as a family, or going cycling in the park he'd be getting positive attention, rather then just getting shouted at.

    Tav on
  • SliverSliver Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    What's the kids mom like?

    Sliver on
  • DjiemDjiem Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    It's pretty hard to give advice because we don't have a lot of infos, but so far I can give one useful advice to the OP: Ignore every post mastman makes.

    Like the others said, if he has a normal, good upbringing, and he suddenly turned "bad", maybe he needs to seek professional attention. Something extreme must have happened, either within the child or in his surroundings.

    Djiem on
  • IreneDAdlerIreneDAdler Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Theungry wrote: »
    Wow, I'm kind of shocked at the violence and intimidation techniques being suggested. I would strongly advise against any of those unless you want to teach this child that bullying is a good way to solve interpersonal conflicts.

    Well, it's obviously not a good thing to beat your kid into a pulp for not washing his hands before dinner, but you need effectively terrifying punishments to back up your discipline. Children are simpleminded, and generally amoral, so they don't really understand why they can't do anything they want. You can't teach them why certain actions are bad until they learn empathy, and even then they have to actually care about people other than themselves for empathy to have any effect. I agree with Octoparrot, you have to put the fear of god into a kid if you want to be able to keep him in hand. But obviously you have to make him understand why he is being punished so he can learn the rules, otherwise he'll probably just resent you for cramping his style. As for this kid, he seems seriously emotionally disturbed. Attention-seeking sounds like a likely cause, since you say he's well-behaved when his father is around, and acts up when his father is gone. Kids aren't so stupid that they think you won't punish them for doing something if you're not physically present when they do it. Maybe he craves attention from his father, and has learned that misbehaving is the most effective way to garner that attention. Is the father very busy? Maybe he can spend a few hours with this kid everyday to help the kid get his fill of attention, and maybe take up some physical activity with him to help burn some energy off. But to offset that, he should stop responding when the kid misbehaves, and let someone else handle the discipline. That way, the kid will learn that acting up won't get Daddy's attention.

    IreneDAdler on
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  • TheungryTheungry Registered User
    edited August 2007
    Okay, point blank, kids grow up all the time to become great people without being spanked intimidated or beaten. Just like with surgery, astronomy and aviation, modern times have brought modern methods that work much better than "the old ways".

    Theungry on
    Unfortunately, western cultures frown upon arranged marriages, so the vast majority of people have to take risks in order to get into relationships.
  • LifeVirusZEROLifeVirusZERO Registered User
    edited August 2007
    Tav wrote: »
    Does the kid get much attention? Does he spend much time with his parents, or better yet, does he spend much fun time with his parents? Maybe all this acting out is a way for him get get them to spend time with them, because if you spray a baby in the face with carpet cleaner you're guaranteed to get attention from the grown-ups. Maybe if they did something together, like watching a movie as a family, or going cycling in the park he'd be getting positive attention, rather then just getting shouted at.

    Attention is not an issue either, he does plenty of fun stuff with his family. He comes over my place a lot and we play around and have fun but the kid does NOT SIT STILL. The only thing that we have EVER gotten to occupy him is my brother's DS. He'll sit there and play mario kart DS for like 4 hours but we can't get him to sit down and watch TV for more than 15 minutes.

    LifeVirusZERO on
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  • brandotheninjamasterbrandotheninjamaster Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Theungry wrote: »
    Wow, I'm kind of shocked at the violence and intimidation techniques being suggested. I would strongly advise against any of those unless you want to teach this child that bullying is a good way to solve interpersonal conflicts.

    Well, it's obviously not a good thing to beat your kid into a pulp for not washing his hands before dinner, but you need effectively terrifying punishments to back up your discipline. Children are simpleminded, and generally amoral, so they don't really understand why they can't do anything they want. You can't teach them why certain actions are bad until they learn empathy, and even then they have to actually care about people other than themselves for empathy to have any effect. I agree with Octoparrot, you have to put the fear of god into a kid if you want to be able to keep him in hand. But obviously you have to make him understand why he is being punished so he can learn the rules, otherwise he'll probably just resent you for cramping his style. As for this kid, he seems seriously emotionally disturbed. Attention-seeking sounds like a likely cause, since you say he's well-behaved when his father is around, and acts up when his father is gone. Kids aren't so stupid that they think you won't punish them for doing something if you're not physically present when they do it. Maybe he craves attention from his father, and has learned that misbehaving is the most effective way to garner that attention. Is the father very busy? Maybe he can spend a few hours with this kid everyday to help the kid get his fill of attention, and maybe take up some physical activity with him to help burn some energy off. But to offset that, he should stop responding when the kid misbehaves, and let someone else handle the discipline. That way, the kid will learn that acting up won't get Daddy's attention.

    I think this is the best advice I've heard yet. :^:

    brandotheninjamaster on
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