Need advice on how to make a kid stop being so bad

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  • IreneDAdlerIreneDAdler Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Yeah. See. My sister wasn't much better. Only she would torment cats.

    She also tried to stab me on three occasions when she was two, and almost dive-bombed my balls with her knees when I was on a couch when she was three.

    She was all wild and crazy and oh gee we have to spank her because she won't sit down and listen my parents said.

    But when -I- was babysitting her, I who never hit in any way shape or form, I'd get her under control just by putting her back in the corner, with minutes added every time she was a little shit (almost for an hour once).

    Afterwards, and sometimes during, we'd have a good long talk, and she would behave perfectly well until my folks got home, at which point she turned into a bitch again, because they would still do their shitty excuse for parenting.

    I think your way only worked because she looked up to you and respected your authoritay enough to actually sit in the corner when you told her to. I don't know if your parents spanked her because she wouldn't listen or if she wouldn't listen because they spanked her, but she obviously respected you more than your parents. If she hadn't, you would have had to wrestle her to the ground or something because she wouldn't have sat in the corner just because you told her to. I think kids generally look up to young adults more than their own parents, I know I did. Anyway, you should know that it's not always just the method, but the child's own attitude towards the person dispensing the discipline.

    My only experience with disciplinary violence is when my dad used to slap my palm if I did anything bad. I think the next step would have been spanking if I really didn't listen, but it never came to that because I was fucking terrified of my dad when I was little, and thus would never do anything that might cause him to be angry. I dunno, I was apparently a well-behaved child. My mom says I'm less obedient now than I used to be when I was 8.

    IreneDAdler on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Theungry wrote: »
    Wow, I'm kind of shocked at the violence and intimidation techniques being suggested. I would strongly advise against any of those unless you want to teach this child that bullying is a good way to solve interpersonal conflicts.

    I dunno, this seems like something some child psychologist came up with just to sell a book.

    I got my ass whupped when I was a kid, and I'm grateful my parents did it. It doesn't teach bullying, it teaches a kid the fact that if he misbehaves, there's going to be negative consequences, and he would do well to behave.

    No... maybe it taught you that, congrats. But most professionals agree that isn't the way to discipline a child.

    And I love how people like you think the child only learns that one thing from being hit. No. Children learn to be secretive, devious, that it's okay to use violence to solve problems, and to fear their parents. Children learn ALL that from being spanked/hit.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I think your way only worked because she looked up to you and respected your authoritay enough to actually sit in the corner when you told her to.

    Nope.

    I'd just carry her back to it over and over and over again until she wore herself out.

    Patience is a powerful thing. Every time she'd make a fuss I'd just add minutes. Eventually the weight of the minutes of having me harassing her overwhelmed her will to be a pain.
    I don't know if your parents spanked her because she wouldn't listen or if she wouldn't listen because they spanked her, but she obviously respected you more than your parents.

    Vicious cycle. Her respect for me came down to the fact that I could outlast her. She was Vegeta, sure, but I, I was Goku. :P
    If she hadn't, you would have had to wrestle her to the ground or something because she wouldn't have sat in the corner just because you told her to.

    For the most part I would just carry her to the corner, and use my body as a barrier if she tried to get out. It's that whole "energy" thing again.
    I think kids generally look up to young adults more than their own parents, I know I did. Anyway, you should know that it's not always just the method, but the child's own attitude towards the person dispensing the discipline.

    That's because young adults are more likely to treat them like people than older folks are.

    I would -fully- explain things to her, listen to her, ask her questions, so on and so forth, like I'd do with an equal. I respected -her-, so she could respect -me-.

    As much as we warred on each other, she was the saddest person in the house (except maybe the cats) when I left.

    Also helps that I grew up mentally cataloging how bad my parents were at parenting so I knew what not to do.

    Incenjucar on
  • brandotheninjamasterbrandotheninjamaster Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    Theungry wrote: »
    Wow, I'm kind of shocked at the violence and intimidation techniques being suggested. I would strongly advise against any of those unless you want to teach this child that bullying is a good way to solve interpersonal conflicts.

    I dunno, this seems like something some child psychologist came up with just to sell a book.

    I got my ass whupped when I was a kid, and I'm grateful my parents did it. It doesn't teach bullying, it teaches a kid the fact that if he misbehaves, there's going to be negative consequences, and he would do well to behave.

    No... maybe it taught you that, congrats. But most professionals agree that isn't the way to discipline a child.

    And I love how people like you think the child only learns that one thing from being hit. No. Children learn to be secretive, devious, that it's okay to use violence to solve problems, and to fear their parents. Children learn ALL that from being spanked/hit.

    I don't think the people here are saying to use spanking as a sole disciplinary method. I think that the punishment should fit the crime. I think that people think of spanking as something absolutely barbaric. I disagree, I see it as a deterrent. Kid does something really wrong, they get spanked. They won't do it again because they don't want their ass to hurt.

    I think that we should have any more spanking talk for the D&D area.

    brandotheninjamaster on
  • RuckusRuckus Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Actually, come to think of it, the people I've known since childhood who are gigantic assholes are the ones who's parents didn't believe in corporal punishment.

    Ruckus on
    Raneados wrote: »
    so what SPECIFICALLY is the problem with my hole?
  • IreneDAdlerIreneDAdler Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    Theungry wrote: »
    Wow, I'm kind of shocked at the violence and intimidation techniques being suggested. I would strongly advise against any of those unless you want to teach this child that bullying is a good way to solve interpersonal conflicts.

    I dunno, this seems like something some child psychologist came up with just to sell a book.

    I got my ass whupped when I was a kid, and I'm grateful my parents did it. It doesn't teach bullying, it teaches a kid the fact that if he misbehaves, there's going to be negative consequences, and he would do well to behave.

    No... maybe it taught you that, congrats. But most professionals agree that isn't the way to discipline a child.

    And I love how people like you think the child only learns that one thing from being hit. No. Children learn to be secretive, devious, that it's okay to use violence to solve problems, and to fear their parents. Children learn ALL that from being spanked/hit.

    I dunno, do they really? Admittedly my parents used a pretty mild form of physical punishment, but I never thought it'd be ok to hit someone. I really think it depends on exactly how you administer physical punishment. I think it's easy to do it wrong, as it's so easy to use it to vent your frustrations at they child's behavior. But conversely, a good kick in the pants could be an effective way to punish kids, as long as it's used in moderation. Also, kids are different just like adults are different, some kids may be mature enough to sit down and have a rational conversation, and other kids may be complete shits. Some may learn to be good from physical punishment, while others may learn to be sneaky. There are just too many variables to say a certain way of discipline is the best way.

    IreneDAdler on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Ruckus wrote: »
    Actually, come to think of it, the people I've known since childhood who are gigantic assholes are the ones who's parents didn't believe in corporal punishment.

    Good evidence. That should be published.


    Enough, this is H/A... I've given my A, now I'll see my way out.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • AbelsAbels Registered User
    edited August 2007
    mastman wrote: »
    Fellhand wrote: »
    mastman wrote: »
    You spank his ass in public as soon as he screws up.

    See, I don't think spanking is the way to go. This is why he needs to contact a professional.

    dropkicks? The first ass whooping a kid should undertake should be from his parents because it's out of love. Raising a bunch of pussies these days.

    I'm not a professional obviously, but you should go see some pussy psychiatrist professional who can sedate the kid in downers for the rest of his life or discipline his ass into normalcy like the rest of us.

    I do so enjoy offering my stubborn, inexperienced opinion on child raising. I guess I'm just old fashioned

    No, you're just an idiot riding the maddox trend. I'm surprised that a jerkoff who would beat a child is accusing other people of being pussies. Grow a pair.

    Child psychiatrist is the way to go.

    Abels on
  • brandotheninjamasterbrandotheninjamaster Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    Theungry wrote: »
    Wow, I'm kind of shocked at the violence and intimidation techniques being suggested. I would strongly advise against any of those unless you want to teach this child that bullying is a good way to solve interpersonal conflicts.

    I dunno, this seems like something some child psychologist came up with just to sell a book.

    I got my ass whupped when I was a kid, and I'm grateful my parents did it. It doesn't teach bullying, it teaches a kid the fact that if he misbehaves, there's going to be negative consequences, and he would do well to behave.

    No... maybe it taught you that, congrats. But most professionals agree that isn't the way to discipline a child.

    And I love how people like you think the child only learns that one thing from being hit. No. Children learn to be secretive, devious, that it's okay to use violence to solve problems, and to fear their parents. Children learn ALL that from being spanked/hit.

    I dunno, do they really? Admittedly my parents used a pretty mild form of physical punishment, but I never thought it'd be ok to hit someone. I really think it depends on exactly how you administer physical punishment. I think it's easy to do it wrong, as it's so easy to use it to vent your frustrations at they child's behavior. But conversely, a good kick in the pants could be an effective way to punish kids, as long as it's used in moderation. Also, kids are different just like adults are different, some kids may be mature enough to sit down and have a rational conversation, and other kids may be complete shits. Some may learn to be good from physical punishment, while others may learn to be sneaky. There are just too many variables to say a certain way of discipline is the best way.

    I think this is what I was trying to get at with my previous posts. Different strokes for different folks. That what they say where I'm from.

    brandotheninjamaster on
  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Sounds like the kid has accurately learned who is in charge- him. He's got people scurring around catering to his every need, good and bad. Doleing out punishment doesn't set authority, the one who controls the situation sets authority. And this kid has everyone by the nuts.

    I would guess that he has learned a great deal about how to control situations, because people are constantly trying to control him; actively demonstrating different methods and techniques to use against others. Mom and Dad yell, yelling becomes a control technique. Dad spanks, hitting becomes a control technique. As an active model, the way he is being dealt with is shaping the way he will interact with others. Children repeat what they see around them, and in this case it seem like theres been an escalating cycle of control issues, and virtually no stability in terms of discipline and child management. (edit: as written about anyway, obviously just one slice of the pie)

    Yeah, go see a pro, because at this point the family needs a lifeplan, and that's a bit too heavy for the thar webs. I could guess at what will be discussed though, and that would be first to get both parents on the same page. You can't have lil bastard running off to the one he has more domination over. Second, agree on a three stage discipline method and stick with it. Small things, medium things, big things. One to set the example: This (ie timeout) is happening now. You are being punished for _____, because when you do _______, it (has this result for this reason). And second to stop arming the kid with new things to try against other people. Children need to be conditioned to respond appropriately, and look to their parents and other life figures to provide that conditioning. Solid, methodical and predictable results will allow the child to explore their boundaries without tipping too far over.

    If you stick with non-violent (voice raising is a type of violence, experiment with quiet control tones) control methods, they can't really be used against other people who hold authority. If you feel you must have physical reinforcement (and some children do, just as some adults do, it's a learning style) pick the same one and keep it consistant. This helps reinforce just who the authority figures are, and also give positive examples of how to behave. If mom loses it when she's mad, the kid will lose it when he's upset. Ditto for Dad. Sometimes you got to keep that poker face. You don't need to show your kids all the cards, they're not in charge, you are.

    /pro

    Also, run the little monkey. Work him hard and long until he's exhausted. Have an activity to do to burn off excess energy that he can do on his own. He's showing some pretty classic ADD symptoms, and the search for adrenaline rules that particular behavior set. Like the rush of getting into trouble, hurting others, running around really fast, sharp doses of pain, being chased, being yelled at, crashing around, etc. Running doesn't hurt anybody and will give a him rush he'll appreciate about twenty minutes in. Laps around the house when buddy is starting to get rambunctious is probably also a good fit. If you can start heading off bad bouts of behaivor at the pass by having productive or healthy things to do on hand, he'll naturally gravitate to those things when he feels the urge to be a troublemaker.

    Sarcastro on
    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • LadyMLadyM Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    How new is the baby? Maybe the four year old is jealous.

    Honestly, I don't see anything horribly troubling here. A lot of four year olds throw tantrums, scream, are rebellious, and bite. Most of them grow out of it, with the help of good parenting. He probably didn't understand the spray would hurt the baby.
    My brother has tried many combinations of punishments, spanking, yelling, the "dad" stare, guilt trips, even positive reinforcement.

    Your brother needs to be consistent with whatever method he tries. Not try a million different things, hoping one will work.

    I would try a combination of positive reinforcement and standing in the corner / time out. If the child tries to get up and walk out of time out, put him back until he stops trying. You have to be more persistant than the kid in order for it to work.

    But what I'd really recommend is looking for professional advice and getting him tested for disorders and such.

    LadyM on
  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    LadyM wrote: »
    Your brother needs to be consistent with whatever method he tries. Not try a million different things, hoping one will work.

    Indeed.

    Sarcastro on
    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Patience is the key. No method will succeed even given a timescale of weeks, however all methods will succeed (all sensible ones) given a timescale of months. It will be tiring and arduous but what you have that a 4 year old does not is patience and the ability to form complex plans.

    Secondly do not back down, ever. If ever our authority is challenged, whether it is "TV ON TV ON!" or "I want CAKE!" or whatever you must always win. Independence and creativity is something you foster after the child understands the difference between positive and negative behaviors, and the concept of consequences. This may mean you have to spend 2 hours calmly and quietly putting a screaming child in a corner, just never give up or al your work is pointless.

    tbloxham on
    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • Blake TBlake T Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Whatever punishment your brother chooses to do (which really shouldn't be the issue here and I for one can't be fucked jumping into that boat) the most important thing is to explain before the punishment that their actions that was XXX led to these consequences YYY because that behaivour isn't tolerated because it's bad for reasons ZZZ. Then after the punishment ask them if they why they were given punishment YYY and would they like it if XXX happened to them. And always make them apologise and explain to them that you don't want to punishment but you have to. Try and reinforce that bad behaivour results in consequences.

    The other thing is that kids that age have the attention of goldfishes. A 10 minute time out is a fucking eternity to them and not that much time to you. And if they break your rules it starts again.

    Blake T on
  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Lock the kid in a closet... if you have one big enough anyway, a walk in or good linen closet with a light. There's nothing entertaining (like the shit they have in their room) and it makes time drag on. Give them a piece of paper and ask them to draw a picture of what they think they did wrong. Let them out when the picture is right, and not just tantrum doodles.

    It's what I did while babysitting. The kid would immediately start being a shit when his mom got home though, because he knew he could.

    dispatch.o on
  • BelketreBelketre Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    After raising my 4 kids, and now having 5 grandkids, I can tell you there's nothing wrong with a good clip in the ear. If it was as terrible as it was made out to be by some people, everybody over about the age of 30 would be some kind of mental patient. Beating your children and giving them a slap on the ass for doing the wrong thing are 2 completely different things.

    In my experience, whenever a kid is like this, it's because they have no respect for your authority. They have been let away with their bad behavior and there has been no real consequence for it. I really think kids need a healthy fear of their parents, as in they should know when you are telling them something, you aren't screwing around.

    I remember as a kid, myself and my brothers ran all over our mother because she would just yell at us, and that didn't bother us so much. Then the phrase "I'm telling your father when he gets home" came out, and we shut the hell up and did what we were told, because we knew if he found out he would just take to you with a belt. He didn't fuck around, didn't put up with our shit, and we knew it. He just had to give you that 'stop doing that stupid shit' look, without saying a damn word and you knew to stop doing that stupid shit. I had the same deal with my kids, and they seem to have turned out just fine, not the emotional wrecks that some people seem to believe they would be.

    Either way, it all comes down to consistency when disciplining them. Give kids an inch and they'll take a mile, so make sure they know you're not just blowing smoke up their ass when you tell them not to do something. Make sure they know that if they behave badly there are consequences EVERY TIME, not every third or fourth time, or just once it pisses you off enough. Kids aren't as dumb as they seem at times, and they like to test the boundaries, so you have to make sure they are firmly set.

    Belketre on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    Lock the kid in a closet... if you have one big enough anyway, a walk in or good linen closet with a light. There's nothing entertaining (like the shit they have in their room) and it makes time drag on.

    What? No.

    1) Locking a kid in a room is a probably a bad idea in and of itself, since they can say "oh people just want to lock me away so they don't care about me" or something to themselves.

    2) If you don't watch them, they can goof off pretty damned easily if you can't see them.
    Give them a piece of paper and ask them to draw a picture of what they think they did wrong. Let them out when the picture is right, and not just tantrum doodles.

    That's all good though.

    Incenjucar on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Belketre wrote: »
    After raising my 4 kids, and now having 5 grandkids, I can tell you there's nothing wrong with a good clip in the ear.

    I'm pretty sure I would have actually murdered my dad rather than just contemplating that if he actually smacked me anywhere near my face. Just saying.

    Incenjucar on
  • BelketreBelketre Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Belketre wrote: »
    After raising my 4 kids, and now having 5 grandkids, I can tell you there's nothing wrong with a good clip in the ear.

    I'm pretty sure I would have actually murdered my dad rather than just contemplating that if he actually smacked me anywhere near my face. Just saying.

    Pretty sure in that case that you have some real mental problems, and should seek professional help, and not give parenting advice when you are clearly mentally unstable. Just saying.

    Belketre on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Belketre wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Belketre wrote: »
    After raising my 4 kids, and now having 5 grandkids, I can tell you there's nothing wrong with a good clip in the ear.

    I'm pretty sure I would have actually murdered my dad rather than just contemplating that if he actually smacked me anywhere near my face. Just saying.

    Pretty sure in that case that you have some real mental problems, and should seek professional help, and not give parenting advice when you are clearly mentally unstable. Just saying.

    Aaannnddd... I'm back.

    Okay, so it's mentally unstable to despise the person who hits you, but not to be the one hitting a small child? Good to know.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    Belketre wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Belketre wrote: »
    After raising my 4 kids, and now having 5 grandkids, I can tell you there's nothing wrong with a good clip in the ear.

    I'm pretty sure I would have actually murdered my dad rather than just contemplating that if he actually smacked me anywhere near my face. Just saying.

    Pretty sure in that case that you have some real mental problems, and should seek professional help, and not give parenting advice when you are clearly mentally unstable. Just saying.

    Aaannnddd... I'm back.

    Okay, so it's mentally unstable to despise the person who hits you, but not to be the one hitting a small child? Good to know.

    You're bending this. No one is talking about a severe beating (well maybe the guy talking about murdering his father for a smack). I was spanked and it did me well. I learned right from wrong quickly and also not to cross my Mom or Dad hehe.

    Maybe some of this thread should be split into D & D? .... I don't want to get infracted for arguing, but I want to support my (and others) advice.

    Xaquin on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    Belketre wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Belketre wrote: »
    After raising my 4 kids, and now having 5 grandkids, I can tell you there's nothing wrong with a good clip in the ear.

    I'm pretty sure I would have actually murdered my dad rather than just contemplating that if he actually smacked me anywhere near my face. Just saying.

    Pretty sure in that case that you have some real mental problems, and should seek professional help, and not give parenting advice when you are clearly mentally unstable. Just saying.

    Aaannnddd... I'm back.

    Okay, so it's mentally unstable to despise the person who hits you, but not to be the one hitting a small child? Good to know.

    You're bending this. No one is talking about a severe beating (well maybe the guy talking about murdering his father for a smack). I was spanked and it did me well. I learned right from wrong quickly and also not to cross my Mom or Dad hehe.

    Maybe some of this thread should be split into D & D? .... I don't want to get infracted for arguing, but I want to support my (and others) advice.

    I agree this would be a good D & D thread... I'll save until that happens.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • BelketreBelketre Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    Belketre wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Belketre wrote: »
    After raising my 4 kids, and now having 5 grandkids, I can tell you there's nothing wrong with a good clip in the ear.

    I'm pretty sure I would have actually murdered my dad rather than just contemplating that if he actually smacked me anywhere near my face. Just saying.

    Pretty sure in that case that you have some real mental problems, and should seek professional help, and not give parenting advice when you are clearly mentally unstable. Just saying.

    Aaannnddd... I'm back.

    Okay, so it's mentally unstable to despise the person who hits you, but not to be the one hitting a small child? Good to know.

    No, thats not what I said, and I'm unsure how the hell you got that from it. It's mentally unstable to consider murdering your father for punishing you, let alone actually do it.

    Belketre on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Belketre wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    Belketre wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Belketre wrote: »
    After raising my 4 kids, and now having 5 grandkids, I can tell you there's nothing wrong with a good clip in the ear.

    I'm pretty sure I would have actually murdered my dad rather than just contemplating that if he actually smacked me anywhere near my face. Just saying.

    Pretty sure in that case that you have some real mental problems, and should seek professional help, and not give parenting advice when you are clearly mentally unstable. Just saying.

    Aaannnddd... I'm back.

    Okay, so it's mentally unstable to despise the person who hits you, but not to be the one hitting a small child? Good to know.

    No, thats not what I said, and I'm unsure how the hell you got that from it. It's mentally unstable to consider murdering your father for punishing you, let alone actually do it.

    Well, we've gone from spanking to clipping someone's ear... anyone want to raise the stakes and talk about how well they turned out with a healthy smack with a lead pipe?

    Just curious.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Belketre wrote: »
    No, thats not what I said, and I'm unsure how the hell you got that from it. It's mentally unstable to consider murdering your father for punishing you, let alone actually do it.

    Mental instability tends to come naturally when one is raised with a constant threat of violence.

    Some people react to violence by shrinking down and becoming obedient, others with self-destructive rebellion, and others by matching like with like.

    My dad was someone who could kill me with his bare hands, and I grew up -fully- aware of it. He could still probably take me in a fight, even though he's damned old now. But with that threat I grew up with, chances are I'd leave one hell of a mark on the way down.

    Fortunately, he never struck me as you would, so I was able to develop immense amounts of empathy and good nature, with only the occasional "Oh god if he swings how do I keep him from breaking my face" moment.

    Not everyone is capable of being submissive.

    --

    Luckily, none of this is an issue if you don't hit your kids.

    Incenjucar on
  • BelketreBelketre Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Sentry, taking things out of context isn't offering either help or advice, it's just trolling.

    Belketre on
  • BelketreBelketre Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Belketre wrote: »
    No, thats not what I said, and I'm unsure how the hell you got that from it. It's mentally unstable to consider murdering your father for punishing you, let alone actually do it.

    Mental instability tends to come naturally when one is raised with a constant threat of violence.

    Some people react to violence by shrinking down and becoming obedient, others with self-destructive rebellion, and others by matching like with like.

    My dad was someone who could kill me with his bare hands, and I grew up -fully- aware of it. He could still probably take me in a fight, even though he's damned old now. But with that threat I grew up with, chances are I'd leave one hell of a mark on the way down.

    Fortunately, he never struck me as you would, so I was able to develop immense amounts of empathy and good nature, with only the occasional "Oh god if he swings how do I keep him from breaking my face" moment.

    Not everyone is capable of being submissive.

    --

    Luckily, none of this is an issue if you don't hit your kids.

    While you are a child, you dont have much choice but to be submissive. My old man was a British Army Sargeant Major, ended up in the British SAS, was about 6'4 and built like a tank. Rebellion or matching like with like wasn't an option while I was a kid.

    I'm 60, so old enough to remember when there were no problems with people hitting their kids, so believe me, I know all about the constant threat of having my ass kicked, and properly. He was the kind of guy that would beat you when he got home to make up for the shit he didn't catch you doing. What I copped as a kid would have my old man thrown in jail these days.

    The point is, kids who have no healthy fear of their parents, as I described in my first post, are going to run riot because there are no consequences. A quick slap on the ass or over the back of the head isn't going to do them any harm, and will more than likely let them know you aren't going to put up with them being little turds. You seem to not be making the distinction between child abuse and a slap on the ass.

    Belketre on
  • DeusfauxDeusfaux Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    you might find this advice laughable, but watch Nanny 911 if you get a chance to see it. I mean it's a reality show so of course there is some entertainment spin to it, but pretty much every family that's been on it, the kids are a menace because of problems with the parents. I would think this is especially true with a 4 year old.

    The parents typically get a huge shock when they think they were doing a good job of being a father/mother and realise some of the things they were doing were directly influencing their young ones to be little terrors. Things like, fighting with each other in front of the kids, disrespecting each other, not being around much, not spending time, not being positive, not being involved, displaying bad behaviours to mimic, etc etc.

    Deusfaux on
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Belketre wrote: »
    Sentry, taking things out of context isn't offering either help or advice, it's just trolling.

    Like I said, we should take this to D&D, there we can discuss the relevance of having your entire view point being based on the fact that you turned out okay, so therefore everyone else will as well.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Belketre wrote: »
    While you are a child, you dont have much choice but to be submissive. My old man was a British Army Sargeant Major, ended up in the British SAS, was about 6'4 and built like a tank. Rebellion or matching like with like wasn't an option while I was a kid.

    Submitting and being submissive are slightly different. There's a matter of how you accept it. Kids whose minds work like mind don't accept it, they just build up huge walls of anger and hatred and fear that grows and grows until it gets unleashed, or, ideally, assuaged before the snapping point.
    I'm 60, so old enough to remember when there were no problems with people hitting their kids, so believe me, I know all about the constant threat of having my ass kicked, and properly. He was the kind of guy that would beat you when he got home to make up for the shit he didn't catch you doing. What I copped as a kid would have my old man thrown in jail these days.

    And that would be how my dad ended up being such a scary person whose first few decades were devoted to violence. He was, thankfully, a "good guy," but 90% of his stories involve violence. Carrying weapons to school and so forth. Yay beatings.
    The point is, kids who have no healthy fear of their parents,

    Yeah. I'm not big in to religious-style parenting.
    as I described in my first post, are going to run riot because there are no consequences.

    I guess you missed the part where my parents, who were happy to whack my sister's ass, couldn't control her, but I could, without a hint of violence?
    A quick slap on the ass or over the back of the head isn't going to do them any harm, and will more than likely let them know you aren't going to put up with them being little turds. You seem to not be making the distinction between child abuse and a slap on the ass.

    There is absolutely nothing healthy about the behavior you are espousing. The largess of the psychological field will back me on this.

    Incenjucar on
  • BelketreBelketre Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Belketre wrote:
    The point is, kids who have no healthy fear of their parents,
    Incenjucar wrote:
    Yeah. I'm not big in to religious-style parenting.

    Unsure how that's religious style anything. Very odd way to percieve that I'd say...
    Belketre wrote:
    as I described in my first post, are going to run riot because there are no consequences.
    Incenjucar wrote:
    I guess you missed the part where my parents, who were happy to whack my sister's ass, couldn't control her, but I could, without a hint of violence?

    A single case doesn't go for much, really.
    Belketre wrote:
    A quick slap on the ass or over the back of the head isn't going to do them any harm, and will more than likely let them know you aren't going to put up with them being little turds. You seem to not be making the distinction between child abuse and a slap on the ass.
    Incenjucar wrote:
    There is absolutely nothing healthy about the behavior you are espousing. The largess of the psychological field will back me on this.

    You mean the same people who prescribe Ritalin every time a kid has a behavioral problem? Forgive me for being a little skeptical of their opinion.

    As I said before, if it were so unhealthy and damaging, anybody over about the age of 30 would be an emotional wreck. Explain to me then how the majority of the worlds population have turned out just fine.

    Belketre on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Not a Fictional Character Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Belketre wrote: »
    You mean the same people who prescribe Ritalin every time a kid has a behavioral problem? Forgive me for being a little skeptical of their opinion.

    Please don't mistake practitioners for researchers. They're barely related.
    As I said before, if it were so unhealthy and damaging, anybody over about the age of 30 would be an emotional wreck. Explain to me then how the majority of the worlds population have turned out just fine.

    I disagree.

    Anyways.

    You advocate teaching a kid fear of violence, yadda yadda yadda.

    I advocate teaching a kid fear of hurting others, yadda yadda yadda.

    Incenjucar on
  • MrPMrP Registered User
    edited August 2007
    I don't know much how help this will be to the OP's brother, as all children as different.

    I believe in the way my parents raised me. Yes, I have been smacked occasionally as a child. But it wasn't a case of "you've done something wrong, now I'm going to spank you". The first time I did a new thing wrong, I was told why it was wrong. The second time I did it, I was reminded that they had told me not to do that, and that if I did it again I would get smacked. The third time I did it I was told in a stern tone that I had been told not to do that, and received a smack.

    Yes, a smack.
    Not a spanking.
    Singular.
    Just One.
    Open hand, on the behind.

    There was no drama behind it, I wasn't marched away bare-assed and made to bend over someones knee. It was done there and then, with explanation. Once that had happened it was forgotten, life continued as normal.

    I didn't grow up fearing my parents, I grew up respecting them because they explained behaviour to me rather than expecting me to know what was right and wrong, and beating me when I made a mistake. This "punishment" (if you will) stopped when I was very young, not because I was considered too old for it, but because I didn't need it. I understood why I should behave in certain ways, and I also understood that there were grey-areas where I should use my own judgement. My parents taught me to think like an adult, and have always treated me as such, as long as I behaved that way.

    You shouldn't have to teach your child every single thing that they shouldn't do, you should be teaching them how to use their own judgement by arming them with a good set of morals and the ability to empatise. I don't know about you but if I'm told that I can't do something but I don't understand why, it doesn't sit right with me. Then if someone physically harms me because I've done it, well that's just going to piss me off.

    MrP on
  • IreneDAdlerIreneDAdler Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    You advocate teaching a kid fear of violence, yadda yadda yadda.

    I advocate teaching a kid fear of hurting others, yadda yadda yadda.

    The thing is, I think your sister responded to your discipline out of fear of losing your respect, rather than fear of hurting others. So it might well have been out of self-interest rather than empathy when she listened to you. I genuinely believe that the vast majority of children, especially young children, don't understand empathy and so need to have a self-interested incentive for good behavior, which generally boils down to fear of something either physical or psychological. But anyways, obviously examples abound from both camps. And I don't think anyone here is advocating child abuse. There's a definite line between abuse and discipline -- administering physical punishment is not automatically abuse, though it definitely can be.

    IreneDAdler on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2007
    Seriously, you pack of idiots, this isn't a debate forum. I don't care who started what. Stop that shit.

    ViolentChemistry on
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