The best part of the Flash episode was that at first glance it seems [spoiler:09c80df08c]that Flash is running away, as it was predicted he'd die at Luthor's hands. When I saw what he was really up to my pants blew off me in a blast of joy juice. It also helped to quiet questions of "Why doesn't Flash go faster?!"[/spoiler:09c80df08c]
[realspoiler:f5621ba443]Has a baby One Year Later. Is it Bruce's?[/realspoiler:f5621ba443]
Conditional_Axe on
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HarrierThe Star Spangled ManRegistered Userregular
edited December 2005
Meh, I'm not too concerned about what happens to Bruce OYL, because we all know his time out of costume or in Arkham or whatever is only temporary. Not only because it makes good sense from a sales perspective (everyone knows and loves Bruce Wayne, not Dick Grayson, as Batman). Also because of the nature of the character.
Batman is bigger than any one person, but Bruce Wayne created the mantle, and as long as he's alive and healthy no one is more attached to it than him. Being the Bat is part of Bruce's nature. It goes beyond training or calling or duty; it's a facet of his character that must be exercised and can't be removed. As long as he's alive, in reasonable health, and aware enough to act on it, Bruce Wayne will be Batman. Take away the gadgets, rip off the cowl, bar him from the Cave, lock him in the loony bin, it doesn't make any difference. Only death and old age would ever make him quit, and if Batman Beyond is any indication, the latter would only force him to let someone else handle the grunt work.
You'd pretty much have to kill Bruce to stop him from being Batman. Whatever happens to him One Year Later, he'll eventually be back.
Harrier on
I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
I think the main problem is that the change is usually so badly handled. I'm going to use Blue Beetle as an example, just because I'm so used to bitching about him anyway. In this case, I'll be bitching about the creation of a new Blue Beetle.
Originally, Mike Norton, and some writer whose name I can't remember, pitched a Blue Beetle series to DC. It involved Ted's teenage nephew coming to visit him, finding out he's Blue Beetle, and getting the magic scarab to work for him. Ted, realizing he has a heart condition and an ever-bulging gut, decides to turn over the reigns to his nephew, and goes as far as offering him the keys to the Bug, and access to all his tech, before realizing that his nephew needs to be his own Beetle. In addition, the cast would include Booster Gold in an advisor/mentor position. Mike Norton had the whole thing up on his website for a while, but it was mysteriously removed after being passed around at Millarworld, and being pretty well received. This route would have kept the humor of the book intact, kept the Blue and Gold dynamic that a lot of fans love, and kept Ted without a well-ventilated skull.
But DC decided to go with the "kill Ted at the hands of one of his closest friends in the midst of some gigantic continuity clusterfuck, darken his entire backstory with retconning, kill off/disable most his friends, and give the scarab to a random person, with the assurance of Giffen that the new Beetle won't interact with Booster Gold" route. A lot of fans took this as a kind of, "fuck you", especially retconning rape and backstabbing into a well-loved group of characters. Now let me say, the new Beetle actually looks cool in the pages Newsarama put up. But it'll always have an air hanging over it, due to the events required to precipitate its creation.
Like I said, change is often just handled badly. You have your Wally Wests and then you have your Connor Hawkes. Unfortunately, after so many Connor Hawkes comic fans have come to associate "change" with "SHIT, DANGER!"
Meh, I'm not too concerned about what happens to Bruce OYL, because we all know his time out of costume or in Arkham or whatever is only temporary. Not only because it makes good sense from a sales perspective (everyone knows and loves Bruce Wayne, not Dick Grayson, as Batman). Also because of the nature of the character.
Batman is bigger than any one person, but Bruce Wayne created the mantle, and as long as he's alive and healthy no one is more attached to it than him. Being the Bat is part of Bruce's nature. It goes beyond training or calling or duty; it's a facet of his character that must be exercised and can't be removed. As long as he's alive, in reasonable health, and aware enough to act on it, Bruce Wayne will be Batman. Take away the gadgets, rip off the cowl, bar him from the Cave, lock him in the loony bin, it doesn't make any difference. Only death and old age would ever make him quit, and if Batman Beyond is any indication, the latter would only force him to let someone else handle the grunt work.
You'd pretty much have to kill Bruce to stop him from being Batman. Whatever happens to him One Year Later, he'll eventually be back.
There's one flaw to this arguement. It's the whole Wally West/Kyle Rayner dynamic that has been introduced over the years. At first people bitched about it, in time they surpassed their previous titlebearer, and became accepted to the point that putting them out of the picture just so the original can have his seat back at the big table would piss people off even more.
The idea of Batman is now bigger than Bruce, and he's done quite enough naughty things to the rest of the DCU that some would prefer Bruce to just go away before he makesa bgger mess of things. If they wrote Dick well enough into the role of Batman, in such a way that he has obviously surpassed Bruce, there will be a bigger outcry that they got rid of Dick. The possibilities of having Dick as Batman pull off some insane shit wihout hearing the words "time to prepare" would be devastating. People who would blindly go "There is no true Batman other than Bruce" will get lumped in with the people that looked stupid for arguing over Hal/Kyle, Barry/Wally, and Ollie/Connor.
Plus, you know, the whole point of taking in these Robins and Batwomen was so that he'd have someone take his place due to injury/old age/death. I hope you see what I'm getting at, I'm not trying to be a dick about it. Just have an open mind about the possibilities.
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Sars_BoyRest, You Are The Lightning.Registered Userregular
I think the main problem is that the change is usually so badly handled. I'm going to use Blue Beetle as an example, just because I'm so used to bitching about him anyway. In this case, I'll be bitching about the creation of a new Blue Beetle.
Originally, Mike Norton, and some writer whose name I can't remember, pitched a Blue Beetle series to DC. It involved Ted's teenage nephew coming to visit him, finding out he's Blue Beetle, and getting the magic scarab to work for him. Ted, realizing he has a heart condition and an ever-bulging gut, decides to turn over the reigns to his nephew, and goes as far as offering him the keys to the Bug, and access to all his tech, before realizing that his nephew needs to be his own Beetle. In addition, the cast would include Booster Gold in an advisor/mentor position. Mike Norton had the whole thing up on his website for a while, but it was mysteriously removed after being passed around at Millarworld, and being pretty well received. This route would have kept the humor of the book intact, kept the Blue and Gold dynamic that a lot of fans love, and kept Ted without a well-ventilated skull.
But DC decided to go with the "kill Ted at the hands of one of his closest friends in the midst of some gigantic continuity clusterfuck, darken his entire backstory with retconning, kill off/disable most his friends, and give the scarab to a random person, with the assurance of Giffen that the new Beetle won't interact with Booster Gold" route. A lot of fans took this as a kind of, "fuck you", especially retconning rape and backstabbing into a well-loved group of characters. Now let me say, the new Beetle actually looks cool in the pages Newsarama put up. But it'll always have an air hanging over it, due to the events required to precipitate its creation.
Like I said, change is often just handled badly. You have your Wally Wests and then you have your Connor Hawkes. Unfortunately, after so many Connor Hawkes comic fans have come to associate "change" with "SHIT, DANGER!"
While I think that is a splendid idea, I just read the new preview for Blue Beetle, and I thought it was pretty good.
Did Giffen really say no Booster? Because I find that some what unavoidable. The new kid even interacts with Guy in the preview, you'd think that Booster would get invloved in this somehow.
Meh, I'm not too concerned about what happens to Bruce OYL, because we all know his time out of costume or in Arkham or whatever is only temporary. Not only because it makes good sense from a sales perspective (everyone knows and loves Bruce Wayne, not Dick Grayson, as Batman). Also because of the nature of the character.
Batman is bigger than any one person, but Bruce Wayne created the mantle, and as long as he's alive and healthy no one is more attached to it than him. Being the Bat is part of Bruce's nature. It goes beyond training or calling or duty; it's a facet of his character that must be exercised and can't be removed. As long as he's alive, in reasonable health, and aware enough to act on it, Bruce Wayne will be Batman. Take away the gadgets, rip off the cowl, bar him from the Cave, lock him in the loony bin, it doesn't make any difference. Only death and old age would ever make him quit, and if Batman Beyond is any indication, the latter would only force him to let someone else handle the grunt work.
You'd pretty much have to kill Bruce to stop him from being Batman. Whatever happens to him One Year Later, he'll eventually be back.
There's one flaw to this arguement. It's the whole Wally West/Kyle Rayner dynamic that has been introduced over the years. At first people bitched about it, in time they surpassed their previous titlebearer, and became accepted to the point that putting them out of the picture just so the original can have his seat back at the big table would piss people off even more.
The idea of Batman is now bigger than Bruce, and he's done quite enough naughty things to the rest of the DCU that some would prefer Bruce to just go away before he makesa bgger mess of things. If they wrote Dick well enough into the role of Batman, in such a way that he has obviously surpassed Bruce, there will be a bigger outcry that they got rid of Dick. The possibilities of having Dick as Batman pull off some insane shit wihout hearing the words "time to prepare" would be devastating. People who would blindly go "There is no true Batman other than Bruce" will get lumped in with the people that looked stupid for arguing over Hal/Kyle, Barry/Wally, and Ollie/Connor.
Plus, you know, the whole point of taking in these Robins and Batwomen was so that he'd have someone take his place due to injury/old age/death. I hope you see what I'm getting at, I'm not trying to be a dick about it. Just have an open mind about the possibilities.
I get what you're saying, and I am trying to keep an open mind. My opinions about Bruce and the mantle of Batman stem from the nature of the character. This is why Bruce differs from Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, and even Oliver Queen, and why replacing him is particularly difficult. Bruce, especially these days, sees himself as Batman; put classically, Bruce Wayne is the mask and Batman is the real man. I don't totally subscribe to that notion- I tend to believe the 'real' Bruce Wayne is a blend of public and crimefighting personas, with a greater emphasis on the Bat over the billionaire. Even with that said, Bruce is most true to himself when he's Batman. Bruce eats, breathes, and sleeps the Mantle of the Bat. His identity is much more emeshed into his actual person than any of the Lanterns, Flashes, or Green Arrows.
Also, the three replaced heroes you mentioned were all replaced because they were dead, at least at the time. If this happened to Bruce, then of course replacing him would be acceptable. It would be necessary.
I suppose what it comes down to is whether Bruce is dead or not at the end of the Crisis. If he isn't, I believe he will be back as Batman eventually if he's properly written. Bruce can't not be Batman without betraying the nature of the character.
Harrier on
I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
Meh, I'm not too concerned about what happens to Bruce OYL, because we all know his time out of costume or in Arkham or whatever is only temporary. Not only because it makes good sense from a sales perspective (everyone knows and loves Bruce Wayne, not Dick Grayson, as Batman). Also because of the nature of the character.
Batman is bigger than any one person, but Bruce Wayne created the mantle, and as long as he's alive and healthy no one is more attached to it than him. Being the Bat is part of Bruce's nature. It goes beyond training or calling or duty; it's a facet of his character that must be exercised and can't be removed. As long as he's alive, in reasonable health, and aware enough to act on it, Bruce Wayne will be Batman. Take away the gadgets, rip off the cowl, bar him from the Cave, lock him in the loony bin, it doesn't make any difference. Only death and old age would ever make him quit, and if Batman Beyond is any indication, the latter would only force him to let someone else handle the grunt work.
You'd pretty much have to kill Bruce to stop him from being Batman. Whatever happens to him One Year Later, he'll eventually be back.
There's one flaw to this arguement. It's the whole Wally West/Kyle Rayner dynamic that has been introduced over the years. At first people bitched about it, in time they surpassed their previous titlebearer, and became accepted to the point that putting them out of the picture just so the original can have his seat back at the big table would piss people off even more.
The idea of Batman is now bigger than Bruce, and he's done quite enough naughty things to the rest of the DCU that some would prefer Bruce to just go away before he makesa bgger mess of things. If they wrote Dick well enough into the role of Batman, in such a way that he has obviously surpassed Bruce, there will be a bigger outcry that they got rid of Dick. The possibilities of having Dick as Batman pull off some insane shit wihout hearing the words "time to prepare" would be devastating. People who would blindly go "There is no true Batman other than Bruce" will get lumped in with the people that looked stupid for arguing over Hal/Kyle, Barry/Wally, and Ollie/Connor.
Plus, you know, the whole point of taking in these Robins and Batwomen was so that he'd have someone take his place due to injury/old age/death. I hope you see what I'm getting at, I'm not trying to be a dick about it. Just have an open mind about the possibilities.
No one can be Batman but Bruce, end of story. Look what happened when someone else took on the cape and cowl, they fucked shit up. Batman is a symbol of truth and justice, he is a vigilante that is within law itself. Bruce knows he isn't above everyone, he knows the morals. The way his life has unfolded has molded who Batman is, know one else in the Bats family comes close to what Batman has endured. Being Batman is his curse and his blessing all at once.
Batman didn't take in all these people to take over for him, he took them in so he could have help. He is their commander and chief, without him they are almost lost.
Batman is one of the few heroes who wouldn't be the same if Bruce wasn't him. So just accept the fact that Batman/Bruce pwns your fucking face off.
Well, mainly most people subscribe to the idea that Bats is the real man and Bruce is the facade. You've made a great case for that.That would lend to the idea that he could get put into Arkham. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Bats is only -slightly- less crazy then the people he hunts down.
As for the others, they were all killed off to reinvent their respective comics. It worked for Flash and GL, but Not so much for Green Arrow. Remember the whole AzBat thing? If it had been Dick instead running around as Bats, that would be the sort of situation that the GL's and Flashes had to go through. There was an opportunity that was missed.
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HarrierThe Star Spangled ManRegistered Userregular
Well, mainly most people subscribe to the idea that Bats is the real man and Bruce is the facade. You've made a great case for that.That would lend to the idea that he could get put into Arkham. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Bats is only -slightly- less crazy then the people he hunts down.
As for the others, they were all killed off to reinvent their respective comics. It worked for Flash and GL, but Not so much for Green Arrow. Remember the whole AzBat thing? If it had been Dick instead running around as Bats, that would be the sort of situation that the GL's and Flashes had to go through. There was an opportunity that was missed.
I've never liked the idea of reinventing a series by killing off the main character and introducing a new one. As great as the new character might be, they're going to be different from the original- they'll have to be for the book to be a 'reinvention'. That means that certain stories that could be told with the older characters now can't be, or have to be told differently.
Death for the sake of change is almost always a mistake to me. Considering that Hal and Ollie have both been resurrected by now, I'm probably not alone in this sentiment.
Harrier on
I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
Well, mainly most people subscribe to the idea that Bats is the real man and Bruce is the facade. You've made a great case for that.That would lend to the idea that he could get put into Arkham. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Bats is only -slightly- less crazy then the people he hunts down.
As for the others, they were all killed off to reinvent their respective comics. It worked for Flash and GL, but Not so much for Green Arrow. Remember the whole AzBat thing? If it had been Dick instead running around as Bats, that would be the sort of situation that the GL's and Flashes had to go through. There was an opportunity that was missed.
I've never liked the idea of reinventing a series by killing off the main character and introducing a new one. As great as the new character might be, they're going to be different from the original- they'll have to be for the book to be a 'reinvention'. That means that certain stories that could be told with the older characters now can't be, or have to be told differently.
Death for the sake of change is almost always a mistake to me. Considering that Hal and Ollie have both been resurrected by now, I'm probably not alone in this sentiment.
I'm glad you agree. At least when Bane snapped Bats in two, that would have been the ideal time to give Dick a warmup as the Bat. Hell he might have not liked it and after some time Bruce gets his back fixed and Dick could go "Go bug Tim about it, or go dig up Jason't grave, it's just not how I do things." Then all would have been well.
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HarrierThe Star Spangled ManRegistered Userregular
Well, mainly most people subscribe to the idea that Bats is the real man and Bruce is the facade. You've made a great case for that.That would lend to the idea that he could get put into Arkham. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Bats is only -slightly- less crazy then the people he hunts down.
As for the others, they were all killed off to reinvent their respective comics. It worked for Flash and GL, but Not so much for Green Arrow. Remember the whole AzBat thing? If it had been Dick instead running around as Bats, that would be the sort of situation that the GL's and Flashes had to go through. There was an opportunity that was missed.
I've never liked the idea of reinventing a series by killing off the main character and introducing a new one. As great as the new character might be, they're going to be different from the original- they'll have to be for the book to be a 'reinvention'. That means that certain stories that could be told with the older characters now can't be, or have to be told differently.
Death for the sake of change is almost always a mistake to me. Considering that Hal and Ollie have both been resurrected by now, I'm probably not alone in this sentiment.
I'm glad you agree. At least when Bane snapped Bats in two, that would have been the ideal time to give Dick a warmup as the Bat. Hell he might have not liked it and after some time Bruce gets his back fixed and Dick could go "Go bug Tim about it, or go dig up Jason't grave, it's just not how I do things." Then all would have been well.
Dick's already spent time as Batman, right? I seem to recall a time when he donned the cape and cowl, though I can't remember the reason.
That's why I'm hoping Dick isn't Batman after Infinite Crisis. It's been done before, and I don't really think Dick would want to do it, though he might not have much choice.
Harrier on
I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
So only Azrael has been Batman's replacement then? I don't like anyone replacing Batman either, it's just not a good idea. He's melted his image into Batman, he's made his mark and his name known. Everyone knows how he is and how he is Batman. Can't be done, which is why I didn't like batman beyond, I saw it and said " That's not Batman".
Dick was Batman after Azrael got put down, but Bruce didn't want to resume the mantle for whatever reason. All the relevant stories are, I believe, collected in the "Prodigal" trade.
So only Azrael has been Batman's replacement then? I don't like anyone replacing Batman either, it's just not a good idea. He's melted his image into Batman, he's made his mark and his name known. Everyone knows how he is and how he is Batman. Can't be done, which is why I didn't like batman beyond, I saw it and said " That's not Batman".
Again, I feel I must ask, if no one else can be Batman, then why does Bruce work so hard to train his eventual replacements?
Dick was Batman after Azrael got put down, but Bruce didn't want to resume the mantle for whatever reason. All the relevant stories are, I believe, collected in the "Prodigal" trade.
Then Wiki has failed me...and so has Google. I figured one of them would come up wiht that.
EDIT Note that both the Nightwing and Batman entries make no mention that it ever happened. There's mention fo Azbat and then nothing. Nightwing's Wiki has an alias of Batman III, but I thought it meant in one of the other Earth's he was Batman.
So only Azrael has been Batman's replacement then? I don't like anyone replacing Batman either, it's just not a good idea. He's melted his image into Batman, he's made his mark and his name known. Everyone knows how he is and how he is Batman. Can't be done, which is why I didn't like batman beyond, I saw it and said " That's not Batman".
Again, I feel I must ask, if no one else can be Batman, then why does Bruce work so hard to train his eventual replacements?
He doesn't want to be replaced, he is training alternates. That is why they have each made there own image, Batman is Bruce's. Look what happened when Batman was alone and such, he was drained and had his back broken.
So only Azrael has been Batman's replacement then? I don't like anyone replacing Batman either, it's just not a good idea. He's melted his image into Batman, he's made his mark and his name known. Everyone knows how he is and how he is Batman. Can't be done, which is why I didn't like batman beyond, I saw it and said " That's not Batman".
Again, I feel I must ask, if no one else can be Batman, then why does Bruce work so hard to train his eventual replacements?
He doesn't want to be replaced, he is training alternates. That is why they have each made there own image, Batman is Bruce's. Look what happened when Batman was alone and such, he was drained and had his back broken.
But we all know from that Teen Titans arc that Bruce does eventually stop putting on the cowl (for whatever reason.)
They each have their own identity because it would be retarded to have 4 Batmen running around. Bruce was always grooming Dick to take over for him. That's why the two of them got so awkward with each other when Dick became Nightwing. It was like saying "I'm not going to follow in your footsteps. I'm going to be something better."
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HarrierThe Star Spangled ManRegistered Userregular
So only Azrael has been Batman's replacement then? I don't like anyone replacing Batman either, it's just not a good idea. He's melted his image into Batman, he's made his mark and his name known. Everyone knows how he is and how he is Batman. Can't be done, which is why I didn't like batman beyond, I saw it and said " That's not Batman".
Again, I feel I must ask, if no one else can be Batman, then why does Bruce work so hard to train his eventual replacements?
He doesn't want to be replaced, he is training alternates. That is why they have each made there own image, Batman is Bruce's. Look what happened when Batman was alone and such, he was drained and had his back broken.
But we all know from that Teen Titans arc that Bruce does eventually stop putting on the cowl (for whatever reason.)
They each have their own identity because it would be retarded to have 4 Batmen running around. Bruce was always grooming Dick to take over for him. That's why the two of them got so awkward with each other when Dick became Nightwing. It was like saying "I'm not going to follow in your footsteps. I'm going to be something better."
Of course Bruce doesn't want to be replaced. He's always going to be the best at what Batman has to do, because he started it all in the first place.
But he's also a practical man. Unless he wants to fall back on magic or the Lazarus Pits to stay young and active (which I doubt he would), he knows that eventually he'll have to be replaced. He's profoundly aware of how effective the Bat is at keeping crime down in Gotham City, and he cares too much for his fellow man to retire the mantle when he's unable to take it up anymore. The world will always need Batman.
That's actually one of the reasons I liked Batman Beyond. It said that, as much as he is intimately tied to Bruce Wayne, Batman is something greater than any one man. It's a very uplifting commentary on the human spirit, that a man can create an entity of such great legacy and mystique that it achieves a kind of modern godhood.
Harrier on
I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
0
Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
edited December 2005
I opened up my Batman:TAS volumes 3 & 4 today (they were Christmas presents). I was surprised to find an animation cel in the Vol. 4. (of Batman in his glider suit), which is pretty sweet. I'll put it on my wall next to my Batman Begins lithograph.
HarrierThe Star Spangled ManRegistered Userregular
edited December 2005
Yeah man, I got Volume 4 today. My set is complete. Batman: The Animated Series is mine in its entirety!
The only thing I'm a little disappointed in is the lack of commentary on certain episodes. I'd have loved commentary on "Old Wounds" or "Mad Love".
Harrier on
I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
0
Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
edited December 2005
The second disc in my Vol 2 is messed up. After the first episode (with Catwoman), the animation starts ghosting.
I need to get a new one. I'll probaby just go to Best Buy and buy it, switch my disc, and then return it, because I don't feel like going all the way back to Barnes & Noble.
So only Azrael has been Batman's replacement then? I don't like anyone replacing Batman either, it's just not a good idea. He's melted his image into Batman, he's made his mark and his name known. Everyone knows how he is and how he is Batman. Can't be done, which is why I didn't like batman beyond, I saw it and said " That's not Batman".
Again, I feel I must ask, if no one else can be Batman, then why does Bruce work so hard to train his eventual replacements?
He doesn't want to be replaced, he is training alternates. That is why they have each made there own image, Batman is Bruce's. Look what happened when Batman was alone and such, he was drained and had his back broken.
But we all know from that Teen Titans arc that Bruce does eventually stop putting on the cowl (for whatever reason.)
They each have their own identity because it would be retarded to have 4 Batmen running around. Bruce was always grooming Dick to take over for him. That's why the two of them got so awkward with each other when Dick became Nightwing. It was like saying "I'm not going to follow in your footsteps. I'm going to be something better."
Of course Bruce doesn't want to be replaced. He's always going to be the best at what Batman has to do, because he started it all in the first place.
But he's also a practical man. Unless he wants to fall back on magic or the Lazarus Pits to stay young and active (which I doubt he would), he knows that eventually he'll have to be replaced. He's profoundly aware of how effective the Bat is at keeping crime down in Gotham City, and he cares too much for his fellow man to retire the mantle when he's unable to take it up anymore. The world will always need Batman.
That's actually one of the reasons I liked Batman Beyond. It said that, as much as he is intimately tied to Bruce Wayne, Batman is something greater than any one man. It's a very uplifting commentary on the human spirit, that a man can create an entity of such great legacy and mystique that it achieves a kind of modern godhood.
Not really, look at Kingdom Come. There is no new younger hipper Batman, it's still Bruce and this time he spends all his time in the batcave on his computer watching crime. He is broken and bruised and needs and exo-skeleton to survive. Bruce will always be Batman, end of story.
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HarrierThe Star Spangled ManRegistered Userregular
So only Azrael has been Batman's replacement then? I don't like anyone replacing Batman either, it's just not a good idea. He's melted his image into Batman, he's made his mark and his name known. Everyone knows how he is and how he is Batman. Can't be done, which is why I didn't like batman beyond, I saw it and said " That's not Batman".
Again, I feel I must ask, if no one else can be Batman, then why does Bruce work so hard to train his eventual replacements?
He doesn't want to be replaced, he is training alternates. That is why they have each made there own image, Batman is Bruce's. Look what happened when Batman was alone and such, he was drained and had his back broken.
But we all know from that Teen Titans arc that Bruce does eventually stop putting on the cowl (for whatever reason.)
They each have their own identity because it would be retarded to have 4 Batmen running around. Bruce was always grooming Dick to take over for him. That's why the two of them got so awkward with each other when Dick became Nightwing. It was like saying "I'm not going to follow in your footsteps. I'm going to be something better."
Of course Bruce doesn't want to be replaced. He's always going to be the best at what Batman has to do, because he started it all in the first place.
But he's also a practical man. Unless he wants to fall back on magic or the Lazarus Pits to stay young and active (which I doubt he would), he knows that eventually he'll have to be replaced. He's profoundly aware of how effective the Bat is at keeping crime down in Gotham City, and he cares too much for his fellow man to retire the mantle when he's unable to take it up anymore. The world will always need Batman.
That's actually one of the reasons I liked Batman Beyond. It said that, as much as he is intimately tied to Bruce Wayne, Batman is something greater than any one man. It's a very uplifting commentary on the human spirit, that a man can create an entity of such great legacy and mystique that it achieves a kind of modern godhood.
Not really, look at Kingdom Come. There is no new younger hipper Batman, it's still Bruce and this time he spends all his time in the batcave on his computer watching crime. He is broken and bruised and needs and exo-skeleton to survive. Bruce will always be Batman, end of story.
But I think Batman will outlive Bruce Wayne. It's too powerful a legacy to die out with the death of its founder.
Harrier on
I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
I got Hush for Christmas. Read it and loved it. I am goingto heroes tomorrow to get Part 10 of The Other and Wolverine vs the Hulk I was wonderin what other batman comics I should look for? I already got The Killing Joke on my list.
I got Hush for Christmas. Read it and loved it. I am goingto heroes tomorrow to get Part 10 of The Other and Wolverine vs the Hulk I was wonderin what other batman comics I should look for? I already got The Killing Joke on my list.
Batman: Year One and Batman: The Dark Knight Returns should be on it.
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I think Tarantula murdered Blockbuster and Dick just never stopped her. At least that's what I got from War Games.
It's funny, because Nightwing's my favourite Bat-character, and yet I've never actually read his stuff (except for the War Games issues).
I shall watch Justice League as well. Specifically, the amazing Flash episode.
omg me too.
Mainly because I watched the Christmas episode about 3 times in the past 2 days.
JordynNolz.com <- All my blogs (Shepard, Wasted, J'onn, DCAU) are here now!
I will own Season 1 the day it comes out, though. But I probably won't, I'll probably get it a couple days later
Pure sex in the form of an animated television show.
Justice League Unlimited
Season 2, Episode 12
In which The Flash kicks Luthor's ass in the coolest way possible.
[spoiler:0725160446] He runs around the world, repeatedly, and smacks Luthor as he passes by him.
A lot.[/spoiler:0725160446]
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I've watched it more than I've read Tower of Babel, more than I've sung along to TURTLE Power, more than I've played 3-D pong.
It is burned into my mind...
and my genitals.
JordynNolz.com <- All my blogs (Shepard, Wasted, J'onn, DCAU) are here now!
[realspoiler:f5621ba443]Has a baby One Year Later. Is it Bruce's?[/realspoiler:f5621ba443]
Batman is bigger than any one person, but Bruce Wayne created the mantle, and as long as he's alive and healthy no one is more attached to it than him. Being the Bat is part of Bruce's nature. It goes beyond training or calling or duty; it's a facet of his character that must be exercised and can't be removed. As long as he's alive, in reasonable health, and aware enough to act on it, Bruce Wayne will be Batman. Take away the gadgets, rip off the cowl, bar him from the Cave, lock him in the loony bin, it doesn't make any difference. Only death and old age would ever make him quit, and if Batman Beyond is any indication, the latter would only force him to let someone else handle the grunt work.
You'd pretty much have to kill Bruce to stop him from being Batman. Whatever happens to him One Year Later, he'll eventually be back.
This is why a lot of contemporary comic books suck.
Change is natural.
Originally, Mike Norton, and some writer whose name I can't remember, pitched a Blue Beetle series to DC. It involved Ted's teenage nephew coming to visit him, finding out he's Blue Beetle, and getting the magic scarab to work for him. Ted, realizing he has a heart condition and an ever-bulging gut, decides to turn over the reigns to his nephew, and goes as far as offering him the keys to the Bug, and access to all his tech, before realizing that his nephew needs to be his own Beetle. In addition, the cast would include Booster Gold in an advisor/mentor position. Mike Norton had the whole thing up on his website for a while, but it was mysteriously removed after being passed around at Millarworld, and being pretty well received. This route would have kept the humor of the book intact, kept the Blue and Gold dynamic that a lot of fans love, and kept Ted without a well-ventilated skull.
But DC decided to go with the "kill Ted at the hands of one of his closest friends in the midst of some gigantic continuity clusterfuck, darken his entire backstory with retconning, kill off/disable most his friends, and give the scarab to a random person, with the assurance of Giffen that the new Beetle won't interact with Booster Gold" route. A lot of fans took this as a kind of, "fuck you", especially retconning rape and backstabbing into a well-loved group of characters. Now let me say, the new Beetle actually looks cool in the pages Newsarama put up. But it'll always have an air hanging over it, due to the events required to precipitate its creation.
Like I said, change is often just handled badly. You have your Wally Wests and then you have your Connor Hawkes. Unfortunately, after so many Connor Hawkes comic fans have come to associate "change" with "SHIT, DANGER!"
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There's one flaw to this arguement. It's the whole Wally West/Kyle Rayner dynamic that has been introduced over the years. At first people bitched about it, in time they surpassed their previous titlebearer, and became accepted to the point that putting them out of the picture just so the original can have his seat back at the big table would piss people off even more.
The idea of Batman is now bigger than Bruce, and he's done quite enough naughty things to the rest of the DCU that some would prefer Bruce to just go away before he makesa bgger mess of things. If they wrote Dick well enough into the role of Batman, in such a way that he has obviously surpassed Bruce, there will be a bigger outcry that they got rid of Dick. The possibilities of having Dick as Batman pull off some insane shit wihout hearing the words "time to prepare" would be devastating. People who would blindly go "There is no true Batman other than Bruce" will get lumped in with the people that looked stupid for arguing over Hal/Kyle, Barry/Wally, and Ollie/Connor.
Plus, you know, the whole point of taking in these Robins and Batwomen was so that he'd have someone take his place due to injury/old age/death. I hope you see what I'm getting at, I'm not trying to be a dick about it. Just have an open mind about the possibilities.
While I think that is a splendid idea, I just read the new preview for Blue Beetle, and I thought it was pretty good.
Did Giffen really say no Booster? Because I find that some what unavoidable. The new kid even interacts with Guy in the preview, you'd think that Booster would get invloved in this somehow.
I get what you're saying, and I am trying to keep an open mind. My opinions about Bruce and the mantle of Batman stem from the nature of the character. This is why Bruce differs from Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, and even Oliver Queen, and why replacing him is particularly difficult. Bruce, especially these days, sees himself as Batman; put classically, Bruce Wayne is the mask and Batman is the real man. I don't totally subscribe to that notion- I tend to believe the 'real' Bruce Wayne is a blend of public and crimefighting personas, with a greater emphasis on the Bat over the billionaire. Even with that said, Bruce is most true to himself when he's Batman. Bruce eats, breathes, and sleeps the Mantle of the Bat. His identity is much more emeshed into his actual person than any of the Lanterns, Flashes, or Green Arrows.
Also, the three replaced heroes you mentioned were all replaced because they were dead, at least at the time. If this happened to Bruce, then of course replacing him would be acceptable. It would be necessary.
I suppose what it comes down to is whether Bruce is dead or not at the end of the Crisis. If he isn't, I believe he will be back as Batman eventually if he's properly written. Bruce can't not be Batman without betraying the nature of the character.
No one can be Batman but Bruce, end of story. Look what happened when someone else took on the cape and cowl, they fucked shit up. Batman is a symbol of truth and justice, he is a vigilante that is within law itself. Bruce knows he isn't above everyone, he knows the morals. The way his life has unfolded has molded who Batman is, know one else in the Bats family comes close to what Batman has endured. Being Batman is his curse and his blessing all at once.
Batman didn't take in all these people to take over for him, he took them in so he could have help. He is their commander and chief, without him they are almost lost.
Batman is one of the few heroes who wouldn't be the same if Bruce wasn't him. So just accept the fact that Batman/Bruce pwns your fucking face off.
As for the others, they were all killed off to reinvent their respective comics. It worked for Flash and GL, but Not so much for Green Arrow. Remember the whole AzBat thing? If it had been Dick instead running around as Bats, that would be the sort of situation that the GL's and Flashes had to go through. There was an opportunity that was missed.
I've never liked the idea of reinventing a series by killing off the main character and introducing a new one. As great as the new character might be, they're going to be different from the original- they'll have to be for the book to be a 'reinvention'. That means that certain stories that could be told with the older characters now can't be, or have to be told differently.
Death for the sake of change is almost always a mistake to me. Considering that Hal and Ollie have both been resurrected by now, I'm probably not alone in this sentiment.
I'm glad you agree. At least when Bane snapped Bats in two, that would have been the ideal time to give Dick a warmup as the Bat. Hell he might have not liked it and after some time Bruce gets his back fixed and Dick could go "Go bug Tim about it, or go dig up Jason't grave, it's just not how I do things." Then all would have been well.
Dick's already spent time as Batman, right? I seem to recall a time when he donned the cape and cowl, though I can't remember the reason.
That's why I'm hoping Dick isn't Batman after Infinite Crisis. It's been done before, and I don't really think Dick would want to do it, though he might not have much choice.
Again, I feel I must ask, if no one else can be Batman, then why does Bruce work so hard to train his eventual replacements?
Then Wiki has failed me...and so has Google. I figured one of them would come up wiht that.
EDIT Note that both the Nightwing and Batman entries make no mention that it ever happened. There's mention fo Azbat and then nothing. Nightwing's Wiki has an alias of Batman III, but I thought it meant in one of the other Earth's he was Batman.
He doesn't want to be replaced, he is training alternates. That is why they have each made there own image, Batman is Bruce's. Look what happened when Batman was alone and such, he was drained and had his back broken.
But we all know from that Teen Titans arc that Bruce does eventually stop putting on the cowl (for whatever reason.)
They each have their own identity because it would be retarded to have 4 Batmen running around. Bruce was always grooming Dick to take over for him. That's why the two of them got so awkward with each other when Dick became Nightwing. It was like saying "I'm not going to follow in your footsteps. I'm going to be something better."
Of course Bruce doesn't want to be replaced. He's always going to be the best at what Batman has to do, because he started it all in the first place.
But he's also a practical man. Unless he wants to fall back on magic or the Lazarus Pits to stay young and active (which I doubt he would), he knows that eventually he'll have to be replaced. He's profoundly aware of how effective the Bat is at keeping crime down in Gotham City, and he cares too much for his fellow man to retire the mantle when he's unable to take it up anymore. The world will always need Batman.
That's actually one of the reasons I liked Batman Beyond. It said that, as much as he is intimately tied to Bruce Wayne, Batman is something greater than any one man. It's a very uplifting commentary on the human spirit, that a man can create an entity of such great legacy and mystique that it achieves a kind of modern godhood.
The only thing I'm a little disappointed in is the lack of commentary on certain episodes. I'd have loved commentary on "Old Wounds" or "Mad Love".
I need to get a new one. I'll probaby just go to Best Buy and buy it, switch my disc, and then return it, because I don't feel like going all the way back to Barnes & Noble.
Not really, look at Kingdom Come. There is no new younger hipper Batman, it's still Bruce and this time he spends all his time in the batcave on his computer watching crime. He is broken and bruised and needs and exo-skeleton to survive. Bruce will always be Batman, end of story.
But I think Batman will outlive Bruce Wayne. It's too powerful a legacy to die out with the death of its founder.
Batman: Year One and Batman: The Dark Knight Returns should be on it.