It doesn't fit. I'll wait until I see the end result but it really is a bad idea and I have my reservations. The way I see it it could be trying to add(force) a dimension to Batman that just is not there and therefore failing or it could actually be cool in some way I have not thought of. We shall see. [/spoiler:68dc5d874e]
CrimsonKing on
This sig was too tall - Elki.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
edited June 2006
I just read Batman: Son of the Demon today, and he really wanted a baby.
I don't think the concern here is with Grant Morrison, who it has been established is awesome. The problem is going to be a few months past that when another writer takes the reigns; how are future teams going to handle Batman's son?
I'm going to sit tight on this one and see how it plays out. Officially, I have no opinion at this time. :P
[quote:8e8eb12645="CrimsonKing"]Now this Batman and son thing, let me get something clarified. BAtman is not, literally, getting a son is he?
[spoiler:8e8eb12645]Yes. Yes, he is.[/spoiler:8e8eb12645]
[spoiler:8e8eb12645]FUCKFUCKFUCK! What the HELL are they doing!?[/spoiler:8e8eb12645]
[spoiler:8e8eb12645]He had one before with Talia, but then they took the story out of continuity. Now Grant Morrison is bringing it back.[/spoiler:8e8eb12645]
[spoiler:8e8eb12645]For good reason, its a fucking stupid idea.[/spoiler:8e8eb12645]
[spoiler:8e8eb12645]I'll agree that his son dressing as Batman is stupid, but not Batman training his son. Shit, he's adopted Dick Grayson and pretty much made Jason and Tim his wards. Why can't he train someone who's actually his son?[/spoiler:8e8eb12645]
[spoiler:8e8eb12645]Because Dick, Jason, and Tim all knew something of the tragedy that Bruce felt when his parents were murdered. The Bat-family has its peculiar chemistry because none of them are really related by blood- it's their shared tragedy and their mutual decisions to take a stand against injustice that brings them together and makes them a family and not just a team.
I think the importance of mutual suffering to Bruce would actually lead him to choose one of his adopted sons, or one of his other associates like Barbara or Cassie, over his own flesh-and-blood. It's not about him being an asshole, it's about what's most important to him. Besides, I can't see him automatically throwing his arms around a son he had with Talia Al Ghul.[/spoiler:8e8eb12645]
[spoiler:8e8eb12645]Tim didn't have any tragedy in his life until after he became Robin.[/spoiler:8e8eb12645]
[spoiler:8e8eb12645]And it's worth pointing out that Tim wasn't automatically accepted. He came to Batman first, and he had to work his ass off before Bruce was willing to take him in. Besides, they've only become as close as Bruce and Dick are in the aftermath of Tim's father's death, so the point still stands.[/spoiler:8e8eb12645]
[spoiler:8e8eb12645]so basically, everytime Batman trains someone they have to follow the same template as all the other stories? Any deviation from the same plot lines are automatically invalidated? God forbid Grant Morrison tries to do something at least a bit original. If it sucks badly they can always retcon it, but I doubt Morrison will make this story shitty. Anyways, we know nothing about the story besides it being about his son, give Morrison a chance, he probably won't go the "obvious" route with the story[/spoiler:8e8eb12645]
[spoiler:8e8eb12645]I'm willing to give Grant Morrison the benefit of the doubt, because he's Grant motherfucking Morrison. I just can't help but be suspicious, because in theory, it's a terrible idea. But terrible ideas have worked before (Cable).[/spoiler:8e8eb12645][/quote:8e8eb12645]
[spoiler:8e8eb12645] This is similar to the same problem that was just presented with a guy diverging from the mythos of a hero by giving him a son from this point forward where all stories where this hero had children were contained to elseworlds and alternate earths. So the new fad in comics is to just throw child raising at our heroes because that's somehow harder than saving the universe?
I hope I was vague enough that I didn't give anything away anything about that other hero. I'm just pissed because I was so happy that Bats wasn't going to be a dick anymore, so they found a new way to make the stories around him suck. That kid is either going to turn out like Jason Todd, he's a reincarnated (mystically or scientifically) Ra's al Ghul, or he'll be murdered. He's Batman so it -can't- end happily for him, we all know this and that is what makes this move more stupid. [/spoiler:8e8eb12645]
übergeek on
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Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
[spoiler:4230611ce2] This is similar to the same problem that was just presented with a guy diverging from the mythos of a hero by giving him a son from this point forward where all stories where this hero had children were contained to elseworlds and alternate earths. So the new fad in comics is to just throw child raising at our heroes because that's somehow harder than saving the universe?
I hope I was vague enough that I didn't give anything away anything about that other hero. I'm just pissed because I was so happy that Bats wasn't going to be a dick anymore, so they found a new way to make the stories around him suck. That kid is either going to turn out like Jason Todd, he's a reincarnated (mystically or scientifically) Ra's al Ghul, or he'll be murdered. He's Batman so it -can't- end happily for him, we all know this and that is what makes this move more stupid. [/spoiler:4230611ce2]
Just because you can't imagine a story arc outside of the ideas you presented doesn't mean another one (a good one) isn't possible.
robosagogo on
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Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
[spoiler:4eb2bf37da] This is similar to the same problem that was just presented with a guy diverging from the mythos of a hero by giving him a son from this point forward where all stories where this hero had children were contained to elseworlds and alternate earths. So the new fad in comics is to just throw child raising at our heroes because that's somehow harder than saving the universe?
I hope I was vague enough that I didn't give anything away anything about that other hero. I'm just pissed because I was so happy that Bats wasn't going to be a dick anymore, so they found a new way to make the stories around him suck. That kid is either going to turn out like Jason Todd, he's a reincarnated (mystically or scientifically) Ra's al Ghul, or he'll be murdered. He's Batman so it -can't- end happily for him, we all know this and that is what makes this move more stupid. [/spoiler:4eb2bf37da]
Just because you can't imagine a story arc outside of the ideas you presented doesn't mean another one (a good one) isn't possible.
yea, I mean by that logic Tim Drake must have secretly been Jokers love child all these years. Honestly, Batmans been training kids for years, does it really matter if he's the biological father or not? And if the kid is another jason todd (which he probably isn't considering Morrison is involved), then yea I agree they should retcon that shit. But if he's as interesting a character as Drake or Nightwing, why the fuck not give it a shot?
[spoiler:769573e66a]Ok, how can I point out the difference between this kid and the Robins......
Let's say for the sake of arguement, Bats could be considered of questionable sanity by employing young children in his crusade against crime. These 3 boys became his sons in a way, and he never got a chance to bond with the girl (everyone seems to forget about that poor girl). Now, the track reconrd is that out of 4 Robins, 2 of them ended up dead in a most unpleasant way. Then one came back from the dead and turned his back on everything Bats had taught him and used it to build himself up as a criminal.
Given this track record, now that he has a son, if he has the slightlest inkling of common sense and sanity, he'll keep his son out of the "family's business dealings at night" and focus on grooming him to run Wayne Enterprises. He has the chance to help heal the wound that the death of his parents caused. You and I and everyone else on the whole damn planet know that biological son is going to be a strung out plot device and will be killed off. That will happen 5-10 years down the line to possibly start an arc where Bruce is finally pushed over the line and becomes as insane as the people he threw into Arkham.
Sure it's not nearly as interesting. After all these years that writers have stressed the kind of importance the concept of family is to Bats, to throw his own flesh and blood son into the fight on the streets of Gotham after the tragedies his adopted children have suffered would be the act of someone truly insane.
After typing all that, I realize that most aren't going to care and don't see anything wrong with it. But does the Bat Family -really- need another member? A member who will either turn out to be evil on his own, Ra's Al Ghul reborn, killed in a heroic act, or killed tragically at the hands of the enemy of the month. Irony would dictate that Jason Todd off the kid. For him to be another good guy makes little sense
My point is that living happily ever after would be boring so that isn't going to happen. Everything else is too predictable as listed above. There are better ways to move Batman's story along without being so predictable. I'm not a writer though so it's not my job to write better material for them. I just know they -can- do better and to me this seems a bit lazy since Bats has plenty of kids as it is. [/spoiler:769573e66a]
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
edited June 2006
Why is everyone spoilering "Batman's son". He was born in a 1989 comic, I'd say the statutes of limitation are up.
Also, Jason isn't a criminal, per se. In Batman's eyes, yes. He's doing what Batman does (punishing bad people) except he takes it to the next level and kills them.
What is criminal, however, is how gay Jason is for Nightwing.
Garlic Bread on
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Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
[spoiler:64704178bd]Ok, how can I point out the difference between this kid and the Robins......
Let's say for the sake of arguement, Bats could be considered of questionable sanity by employing young children in his crusade against crime. These 3 boys became his sons in a way, and he never got a chance to bond with the girl (everyone seems to forget about that poor girl). Now, the track reconrd is that out of 4 Robins, 2 of them ended up dead in a most unpleasant way. Then one came back from the dead and turned his back on everything Bats had taught him and used it to build himself up as a criminal.
Given this track record, now that he has a son, if he has the slightlest inkling of common sense and sanity, he'll keep his son out of the "family's business dealings at night" and focus on grooming him to run Wayne Enterprises. He has the chance to help heal the wound that the death of his parents caused. You and I and everyone else on the whole damn planet know that biological son is going to be a strung out plot device and will be killed off. That will happen 5-10 years down the line to possibly start an arc where Bruce is finally pushed over the line and becomes as insane as the people he threw into Arkham.
Sure it's not nearly as interesting. After all these years that writers have stressed the kind of importance the concept of family is to Bats, to throw his own flesh and blood son into the fight on the streets of Gotham after the tragedies his adopted children have suffered would be the act of someone truly insane.
After typing all that, I realize that most aren't going to care and don't see anything wrong with it. But does the Bat Family -really- need another member? A member who will either turn out to be evil on his own, Ra's Al Ghul reborn, killed in a heroic act, or killed tragically at the hands of the enemy of the month. Irony would dictate that Jason Todd off the kid. For him to be another good guy makes little sense
My point is that living happily ever after would be boring so that isn't going to happen. Everything else is too predictable as listed above. There are better ways to move Batman's story along without being so predictable. I'm not a writer though so it's not my job to write better material for them. I just know they -can- do better and to me this seems a bit lazy since Bats has plenty of kids as it is. [/spoiler:64704178bd]
[spoiler:64704178bd]Honestly considering they're trying to bring Batman "back to his roots" then having a strung out plot device that they intend to use to make him go crazy makes no sense. And also as I'll say again, we have no idea as to the details of the plot. And again, considering its GRANT FUCKING MORRISON I really doubt the story will be generic or like anything we have so far guessed. Yea, if it does turn out to be stupid then I can understanding the whining and bitching, but come on, at least be open minded going into it. Calling the whole thing lazy writing when you havent even read one issue of the story arc is pretty stupid. [/spoiler:64704178bd]
[spoiler:d7447b08fa]Ok, how can I point out the difference between this kid and the Robins......
Let's say for the sake of arguement, Bats could be considered of questionable sanity by employing young children in his crusade against crime. These 3 boys became his sons in a way, and he never got a chance to bond with the girl (everyone seems to forget about that poor girl). Now, the track reconrd is that out of 4 Robins, 2 of them ended up dead in a most unpleasant way. Then one came back from the dead and turned his back on everything Bats had taught him and used it to build himself up as a criminal.
Given this track record, now that he has a son, if he has the slightlest inkling of common sense and sanity, he'll keep his son out of the "family's business dealings at night" and focus on grooming him to run Wayne Enterprises. He has the chance to help heal the wound that the death of his parents caused. You and I and everyone else on the whole damn planet know that biological son is going to be a strung out plot device and will be killed off. That will happen 5-10 years down the line to possibly start an arc where Bruce is finally pushed over the line and becomes as insane as the people he threw into Arkham.
Sure it's not nearly as interesting. After all these years that writers have stressed the kind of importance the concept of family is to Bats, to throw his own flesh and blood son into the fight on the streets of Gotham after the tragedies his adopted children have suffered would be the act of someone truly insane.
After typing all that, I realize that most aren't going to care and don't see anything wrong with it. But does the Bat Family -really- need another member? A member who will either turn out to be evil on his own, Ra's Al Ghul reborn, killed in a heroic act, or killed tragically at the hands of the enemy of the month. Irony would dictate that Jason Todd off the kid. For him to be another good guy makes little sense
My point is that living happily ever after would be boring so that isn't going to happen. Everything else is too predictable as listed above. There are better ways to move Batman's story along without being so predictable. I'm not a writer though so it's not my job to write better material for them. I just know they -can- do better and to me this seems a bit lazy since Bats has plenty of kids as it is. [/spoiler:d7447b08fa]
[spoiler:d7447b08fa]Honestly considering they're trying to bring Batman "back to his roots" then having a strung out plot device that they intend to use to make him go crazy makes no sense. And also as I'll say again, we have no idea as to the details of the plot. And again, considering its GRANT FUCKING MORRISON I really doubt the story will be generic or like anything we have so far guessed. Yea, if it does turn out to be stupid then I can understanding the whining and bitching, but come on, at least be open minded going into it. Calling the whole thing lazy writing when you havent even read one issue of the story arc is pretty stupid. [/spoiler:d7447b08fa]
My long winded point is they must have wrote him out of existence in the first place because it was looked on as a bad idea/or they had a good reason to do it. Jason Todd got offed and some guy who thought he'd be a genius raises him from the dead and another genius decides to blame it on SBP throwing a tantrum, meddling in things they should have never considered touching. Now anyone says the words Jason Todd and comic fans wretch in disgust. I just don't want that happening again, because lately it's been happening alot.
On the other hand, if you consider the flurry of changes that have been going on over the past year.......if they had waited say....2 years or so before doing this, I'd be much more open to it. It could probably go very well. But right now it's just a flurry of changes and the Crisis just ended a month or two ago. At the least they could wait until 52 has run it's course. Know what I mean?
It has been my long-time fear that DC would do something to do away with Batman, even it its out of the superhero spot. Batman's shit has been getting fucked up a lot these past years and to top it off now, a son. So, DC doing away with its second biggest icon? Bullshit, and I agree. Thats why its filed away into my "Baseless paranoia" folder. T
Aside from the fact that Batman will eventually de, of course.
It has been my long-time fear that DC would do something to do away with Batman, even it its out of the superhero spot. Batman's shit has been getting fucked up a lot these past years and to top it off now, a son. So, DC doing away with its second biggest icon? Bullshit, and I agree. Thats why its filed away into my "Baseless paranoia" folder. T
Aside from the fact that Batman will eventually de, of course.
How the hell are they doing away with Batman? They are adding another character to his stable, plain and simple..whether it is his son or not. We don't even know how the basis of the story is going to play out for christ sakes.
It has been my long-time fear that DC would do something to do away with Batman, even it its out of the superhero spot. Batman's shit has been getting fucked up a lot these past years and to top it off now, a son. So, DC doing away with its second biggest icon? Bullshit, and I agree. Thats why its filed away into my "Baseless paranoia" folder. T
Aside from the fact that Batman will eventually de, of course.
How the hell are they doing away with Batman? They are adding another character to his stable, plain and simple..whether it is his son or not. We don't even know how the basis of the story is going to play out for christ sakes.
[spoiler:2ecf29ca0f] Is he joking or did they really turn Batgirl into a villain, and who's stupid idea was it it? [/spoiler:2ecf29ca0f]
[spoiler:2ecf29ca0f]She's been antagonizing Robin OYL. Cass now runs the League of Assassins and apparently speaks/writes Navajo, despite just learning how to speak at all. She got Robin to free David Cain, so she could have Robin kill him, but Robin wouldn't, so they fought, and in the middle of the fight an explosion went off and they both ran away.
As for your second question, probably Didio because he's retarded.[/spoiler:2ecf29ca0f]
[spoiler:781275d646] Is he joking or did they really turn Batgirl into a villain, and who's stupid idea was it it? [/spoiler:781275d646]
[spoiler:781275d646]She's been antagonizing Robin OYL. Cass now runs the League of Assassins and apparently speaks/writes Navajo, despite just learning how to speak at all. She got Robin to free David Cain, so she could have Robin kill him, but Robin wouldn't, so they fought, and in the middle of the fight an explosion went off and they both ran away.
As for your second question, probably Didio because he's retarded.[/spoiler:781275d646]
[spoiler:781275d646]The problem I see with all this right now is doesn't Bats know by now? He's not goign to have a repeat of Jason Todd running around. The Batman we know and love would hunt her down and slap her around a bit with a speech about how he won't allow anymore Jason Todd's out into the world. He should have shut her down by now because he wouldn't allow it. If this goes on they have to reveal it was an undercover job at some point, because I can not and will not beleive that he'd allow this otherwise.[/spoiler:781275d646]
übergeek on
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Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
[spoiler:8eab9dbff8] Is he joking or did they really turn Batgirl into a villain, and who's stupid idea was it it? [/spoiler:8eab9dbff8]
[spoiler:8eab9dbff8]She's been antagonizing Robin OYL. Cass now runs the League of Assassins and apparently speaks/writes Navajo, despite just learning how to speak at all. She got Robin to free David Cain, so she could have Robin kill him, but Robin wouldn't, so they fought, and in the middle of the fight an explosion went off and they both ran away.
As for your second question, probably Didio because he's retarded.[/spoiler:8eab9dbff8]
[spoiler:8eab9dbff8]The problem I see with all this right now is doesn't Bats know by now? He's not goign to have a repeat of Jason Todd running around. The Batman we know and love would hunt her down and slap her around a bit with a speech about how he won't allow anymore Jason Todd's out into the world. He should have shut her down by now because he wouldn't allow it. If this goes on they have to reveal it was an undercover job at some point, because I can not and will not beleive that he'd allow this otherwise.[/spoiler:8eab9dbff8]
[spoiler:8eab9dbff8] didn't they kind of allude to her not really being cass with the whole "there were others" line in the last issue of robin? sort of the whole "bad twin" thing. anyway, thats what Im hoping for.[/spoiler:8eab9dbff8]
[spoiler:867682f453] Is he joking or did they really turn Batgirl into a villain, and who's stupid idea was it it? [/spoiler:867682f453]
[spoiler:867682f453]She's been antagonizing Robin OYL. Cass now runs the League of Assassins and apparently speaks/writes Navajo, despite just learning how to speak at all. She got Robin to free David Cain, so she could have Robin kill him, but Robin wouldn't, so they fought, and in the middle of the fight an explosion went off and they both ran away.
As for your second question, probably Didio because he's retarded.[/spoiler:867682f453]
[spoiler:867682f453]The problem I see with all this right now is doesn't Bats know by now? He's not goign to have a repeat of Jason Todd running around. The Batman we know and love would hunt her down and slap her around a bit with a speech about how he won't allow anymore Jason Todd's out into the world. He should have shut her down by now because he wouldn't allow it. If this goes on they have to reveal it was an undercover job at some point, because I can not and will not beleive that he'd allow this otherwise.[/spoiler:867682f453]
Batman would already know and Cass would be brought to justice. Look what he did with [spoiler:867682f453]Leslie Thomkins(sp?)[/spoiler:867682f453]
[spoiler:8b571949fd]The problem I see with all this right now is doesn't Bats know by now? He's not goign to have a repeat of Jason Todd running around. The Batman we know and love would hunt her down and slap her around a bit with a speech about how he won't allow anymore Jason Todd's out into the world. He should have shut her down by now because he wouldn't allow it. If this goes on they have to reveal it was an undercover job at some point, because I can not and will not beleive that he'd allow this otherwise.[/spoiler:8b571949fd]
Robin already told Batman that "he's going to take care of it" I figure Batman is respecting Tim's ability to handle the problem. Plus you need to count different time frames and a little comic book magic.
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HarrierThe Star Spangled ManRegistered Userregular
[spoiler:c60b1b2932] Is he joking or did they really turn Batgirl into a villain, and who's stupid idea was it it? [/spoiler:c60b1b2932]
[spoiler:c60b1b2932]She's been antagonizing Robin OYL. Cass now runs the League of Assassins and apparently speaks/writes Navajo, despite just learning how to speak at all. She got Robin to free David Cain, so she could have Robin kill him, but Robin wouldn't, so they fought, and in the middle of the fight an explosion went off and they both ran away.
As for your second question, probably Didio because he's retarded.[/spoiler:c60b1b2932]
[spoiler:c60b1b2932]The problem I see with all this right now is doesn't Bats know by now? He's not goign to have a repeat of Jason Todd running around. The Batman we know and love would hunt her down and slap her around a bit with a speech about how he won't allow anymore Jason Todd's out into the world. He should have shut her down by now because he wouldn't allow it. If this goes on they have to reveal it was an undercover job at some point, because I can not and will not beleive that he'd allow this otherwise.[/spoiler:c60b1b2932]
Batman would already know and Cass would be brought to justice. Look what he did with [spoiler:c60b1b2932]Leslie Thomkins(sp?)[/spoiler:c60b1b2932]
Wait. Wait. WAIT.
[spoiler:c60b1b2932]What the fuck happened with Leslie Thomkins?[/spoiler:c60b1b2932]
Harrier on
I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
[spoiler:b676bf7072] Is he joking or did they really turn Batgirl into a villain, and who's stupid idea was it it? [/spoiler:b676bf7072]
[spoiler:b676bf7072]She's been antagonizing Robin OYL. Cass now runs the League of Assassins and apparently speaks/writes Navajo, despite just learning how to speak at all. She got Robin to free David Cain, so she could have Robin kill him, but Robin wouldn't, so they fought, and in the middle of the fight an explosion went off and they both ran away.
As for your second question, probably Didio because he's retarded.[/spoiler:b676bf7072]
[spoiler:b676bf7072]The problem I see with all this right now is doesn't Bats know by now? He's not goign to have a repeat of Jason Todd running around. The Batman we know and love would hunt her down and slap her around a bit with a speech about how he won't allow anymore Jason Todd's out into the world. He should have shut her down by now because he wouldn't allow it. If this goes on they have to reveal it was an undercover job at some point, because I can not and will not beleive that he'd allow this otherwise.[/spoiler:b676bf7072]
Batman would already know and Cass would be brought to justice. Look what he did with [spoiler:b676bf7072]Leslie Thomkins(sp?)[/spoiler:b676bf7072]
Wait. Wait. WAIT.
[spoiler:b676bf7072]What the fuck happened with Leslie Thomkins?[/spoiler:b676bf7072]
[spoiler:b676bf7072]She gave left all her money to Spoiler's daughter and fled to Africa, where Batman told her that she was just another murderer and if she came back to the US, he'd have her arrested.[/spoiler:b676bf7072]
Garlic Bread on
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HarrierThe Star Spangled ManRegistered Userregular
[spoiler:e6770d8900] Is he joking or did they really turn Batgirl into a villain, and who's stupid idea was it it? [/spoiler:e6770d8900]
[spoiler:e6770d8900]She's been antagonizing Robin OYL. Cass now runs the League of Assassins and apparently speaks/writes Navajo, despite just learning how to speak at all. She got Robin to free David Cain, so she could have Robin kill him, but Robin wouldn't, so they fought, and in the middle of the fight an explosion went off and they both ran away.
As for your second question, probably Didio because he's retarded.[/spoiler:e6770d8900]
[spoiler:e6770d8900]The problem I see with all this right now is doesn't Bats know by now? He's not goign to have a repeat of Jason Todd running around. The Batman we know and love would hunt her down and slap her around a bit with a speech about how he won't allow anymore Jason Todd's out into the world. He should have shut her down by now because he wouldn't allow it. If this goes on they have to reveal it was an undercover job at some point, because I can not and will not beleive that he'd allow this otherwise.[/spoiler:e6770d8900]
Batman would already know and Cass would be brought to justice. Look what he did with [spoiler:e6770d8900]Leslie Thomkins(sp?)[/spoiler:e6770d8900]
Wait. Wait. WAIT.
[spoiler:e6770d8900]What the fuck happened with Leslie Thomkins?[/spoiler:e6770d8900]
[spoiler:e6770d8900]She gave left all her money to Spoiler's daughter and fled to Africa, where Batman told her that she was just another murderer and if she came back to the US, he'd have her arrested.[/spoiler:e6770d8900]
[spoiler:e6770d8900]No, no, what did she do? I didn't read War Games.[/spoiler:e6770d8900]
Harrier on
I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
[spoiler:716cf8376d] Is he joking or did they really turn Batgirl into a villain, and who's stupid idea was it it? [/spoiler:716cf8376d]
[spoiler:716cf8376d]She's been antagonizing Robin OYL. Cass now runs the League of Assassins and apparently speaks/writes Navajo, despite just learning how to speak at all. She got Robin to free David Cain, so she could have Robin kill him, but Robin wouldn't, so they fought, and in the middle of the fight an explosion went off and they both ran away.
As for your second question, probably Didio because he's retarded.[/spoiler:716cf8376d]
[spoiler:716cf8376d]The problem I see with all this right now is doesn't Bats know by now? He's not goign to have a repeat of Jason Todd running around. The Batman we know and love would hunt her down and slap her around a bit with a speech about how he won't allow anymore Jason Todd's out into the world. He should have shut her down by now because he wouldn't allow it. If this goes on they have to reveal it was an undercover job at some point, because I can not and will not beleive that he'd allow this otherwise.[/spoiler:716cf8376d]
Batman would already know and Cass would be brought to justice. Look what he did with [spoiler:716cf8376d]Leslie Thomkins(sp?)[/spoiler:716cf8376d]
Wait. Wait. WAIT.
[spoiler:716cf8376d]What the fuck happened with Leslie Thomkins?[/spoiler:716cf8376d]
[spoiler:716cf8376d]She gave left all her money to Spoiler's daughter and fled to Africa, where Batman told her that she was just another murderer and if she came back to the US, he'd have her arrested.[/spoiler:716cf8376d]
[spoiler:716cf8376d]No, no, what did she do? I didn't read War Games.[/spoiler:716cf8376d]
She didn't give Spoiler the treatment she needed after Black Mask beat the shit out of her, resulting in Spoiler's death. She did it on purpose to send a message to Batman saying that he needs to stop using children in his war on crime.
Garlic Bread on
0
HarrierThe Star Spangled ManRegistered Userregular
[spoiler:ddd30bec8f] Is he joking or did they really turn Batgirl into a villain, and who's stupid idea was it it? [/spoiler:ddd30bec8f]
[spoiler:ddd30bec8f]She's been antagonizing Robin OYL. Cass now runs the League of Assassins and apparently speaks/writes Navajo, despite just learning how to speak at all. She got Robin to free David Cain, so she could have Robin kill him, but Robin wouldn't, so they fought, and in the middle of the fight an explosion went off and they both ran away.
As for your second question, probably Didio because he's retarded.[/spoiler:ddd30bec8f]
[spoiler:ddd30bec8f]The problem I see with all this right now is doesn't Bats know by now? He's not goign to have a repeat of Jason Todd running around. The Batman we know and love would hunt her down and slap her around a bit with a speech about how he won't allow anymore Jason Todd's out into the world. He should have shut her down by now because he wouldn't allow it. If this goes on they have to reveal it was an undercover job at some point, because I can not and will not beleive that he'd allow this otherwise.[/spoiler:ddd30bec8f]
Batman would already know and Cass would be brought to justice. Look what he did with [spoiler:ddd30bec8f]Leslie Thomkins(sp?)[/spoiler:ddd30bec8f]
Wait. Wait. WAIT.
[spoiler:ddd30bec8f]What the fuck happened with Leslie Thomkins?[/spoiler:ddd30bec8f]
[spoiler:ddd30bec8f]She gave left all her money to Spoiler's daughter and fled to Africa, where Batman told her that she was just another murderer and if she came back to the US, he'd have her arrested.[/spoiler:ddd30bec8f]
[spoiler:ddd30bec8f]No, no, what did she do? I didn't read War Games.[/spoiler:ddd30bec8f]
She didn't give Spoiler the treatment she needed after Black Mask beat the shit out of her, resulting in Spoiler's death. She did it on purpose to send a message to Batman saying that he needs to stop using children in his war on crime.
FUCK.
What is with DC's propensity for making the friends and family of their heroes into absolute dicks? They pulled this shit with Ruin, too. FUCK.
Harrier on
I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
Honestly, the shit with Cassandra is a much bigger annoyance for me.
[spoiler:2e4c213f48]Turning her into a monologuing, "Hahaha! You'll never defeat me!" villain who can get her ass kicked by Robin, when she's been shown to be one of, if not the best hand to hand fighter in the entire fucking world, just reeks of stupid editorial mandated bullshit. But fuck, at least now we get to have Batwoman the lesbian wonder.[/spoiler:2e4c213f48]
She didn't give Spoiler the treatment she needed after Black Mask beat the shit out of her, resulting in Spoiler's death. She did it on purpose to send a message to Batman saying that he needs to stop using children in his war on crime.
Wait, no.... Batman found Spoiler dead, didn't he?
[edit] Scratch that, re-read it. I guess I was confusing her with Jason Todd. When does Leslie reveal that she did it on purpose though, I've not read this. She does look mighty shifty though, so possibly soon after?
bobgorila on
I like my women how I like my coffee.
Anally.
0
Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
edited July 2006
I'm not sure, I read it on Wikipedia (I know it's true, though).
Also, Cassie was in a Lazerus Pit, which could affect her personality. Maybe not teach her how to write in Navajo code, but you never know.
Posts
Batman+child
Do that math for a second.
It doesn't fit. I'll wait until I see the end result but it really is a bad idea and I have my reservations. The way I see it it could be trying to add(force) a dimension to Batman that just is not there and therefore failing or it could actually be cool in some way I have not thought of. We shall see. [/spoiler:68dc5d874e]
like, so bad
But Grant Morrison only knows how to make things better. He can't do it the other way around because he doesn't know how.
Frankly, I don't care who is writing it. It is some thing that can fundamentally change Batman.
I'm just saying, it could go both ways. All we can do is watch. And wait.
I'm going to sit tight on this one and see how it plays out. Officially, I have no opinion at this time. :P
[spoiler:8e8eb12645]I'm willing to give Grant Morrison the benefit of the doubt, because he's Grant motherfucking Morrison. I just can't help but be suspicious, because in theory, it's a terrible idea. But terrible ideas have worked before (Cable).[/spoiler:8e8eb12645][/quote:8e8eb12645]
[spoiler:8e8eb12645] This is similar to the same problem that was just presented with a guy diverging from the mythos of a hero by giving him a son from this point forward where all stories where this hero had children were contained to elseworlds and alternate earths. So the new fad in comics is to just throw child raising at our heroes because that's somehow harder than saving the universe?
I hope I was vague enough that I didn't give anything away anything about that other hero. I'm just pissed because I was so happy that Bats wasn't going to be a dick anymore, so they found a new way to make the stories around him suck. That kid is either going to turn out like Jason Todd, he's a reincarnated (mystically or scientifically) Ra's al Ghul, or he'll be murdered. He's Batman so it -can't- end happily for him, we all know this and that is what makes this move more stupid. [/spoiler:8e8eb12645]
Wait...How is having a kid something fundimently different? Wasn't it was same with Dick?
I'm so glad there was no internet when they first introduced Robin. The internet would have died.
Just because you can't imagine a story arc outside of the ideas you presented doesn't mean another one (a good one) isn't possible.
yea, I mean by that logic Tim Drake must have secretly been Jokers love child all these years. Honestly, Batmans been training kids for years, does it really matter if he's the biological father or not? And if the kid is another jason todd (which he probably isn't considering Morrison is involved), then yea I agree they should retcon that shit. But if he's as interesting a character as Drake or Nightwing, why the fuck not give it a shot?
Having a child is different, much different, than taking a young boy under you're wing.
This time it's just his son.
Let's say for the sake of arguement, Bats could be considered of questionable sanity by employing young children in his crusade against crime. These 3 boys became his sons in a way, and he never got a chance to bond with the girl (everyone seems to forget about that poor girl). Now, the track reconrd is that out of 4 Robins, 2 of them ended up dead in a most unpleasant way. Then one came back from the dead and turned his back on everything Bats had taught him and used it to build himself up as a criminal.
Given this track record, now that he has a son, if he has the slightlest inkling of common sense and sanity, he'll keep his son out of the "family's business dealings at night" and focus on grooming him to run Wayne Enterprises. He has the chance to help heal the wound that the death of his parents caused. You and I and everyone else on the whole damn planet know that biological son is going to be a strung out plot device and will be killed off. That will happen 5-10 years down the line to possibly start an arc where Bruce is finally pushed over the line and becomes as insane as the people he threw into Arkham.
Sure it's not nearly as interesting. After all these years that writers have stressed the kind of importance the concept of family is to Bats, to throw his own flesh and blood son into the fight on the streets of Gotham after the tragedies his adopted children have suffered would be the act of someone truly insane.
After typing all that, I realize that most aren't going to care and don't see anything wrong with it. But does the Bat Family -really- need another member? A member who will either turn out to be evil on his own, Ra's Al Ghul reborn, killed in a heroic act, or killed tragically at the hands of the enemy of the month. Irony would dictate that Jason Todd off the kid. For him to be another good guy makes little sense
My point is that living happily ever after would be boring so that isn't going to happen. Everything else is too predictable as listed above. There are better ways to move Batman's story along without being so predictable. I'm not a writer though so it's not my job to write better material for them. I just know they -can- do better and to me this seems a bit lazy since Bats has plenty of kids as it is. [/spoiler:769573e66a]
Also, Jason isn't a criminal, per se. In Batman's eyes, yes. He's doing what Batman does (punishing bad people) except he takes it to the next level and kills them.
What is criminal, however, is how gay Jason is for Nightwing.
[spoiler:64704178bd]Honestly considering they're trying to bring Batman "back to his roots" then having a strung out plot device that they intend to use to make him go crazy makes no sense. And also as I'll say again, we have no idea as to the details of the plot. And again, considering its GRANT FUCKING MORRISON I really doubt the story will be generic or like anything we have so far guessed. Yea, if it does turn out to be stupid then I can understanding the whining and bitching, but come on, at least be open minded going into it. Calling the whole thing lazy writing when you havent even read one issue of the story arc is pretty stupid. [/spoiler:64704178bd]
My long winded point is they must have wrote him out of existence in the first place because it was looked on as a bad idea/or they had a good reason to do it. Jason Todd got offed and some guy who thought he'd be a genius raises him from the dead and another genius decides to blame it on SBP throwing a tantrum, meddling in things they should have never considered touching. Now anyone says the words Jason Todd and comic fans wretch in disgust. I just don't want that happening again, because lately it's been happening alot.
On the other hand, if you consider the flurry of changes that have been going on over the past year.......if they had waited say....2 years or so before doing this, I'd be much more open to it. It could probably go very well. But right now it's just a flurry of changes and the Crisis just ended a month or two ago. At the least they could wait until 52 has run it's course. Know what I mean?
PSN: OrneryRooster
Aside from the fact that Batman will eventually de, of course.
How the hell are they doing away with Batman? They are adding another character to his stable, plain and simple..whether it is his son or not. We don't even know how the basis of the story is going to play out for christ sakes.
PSN: OrneryRooster
See bold.
[spoiler:b298fb3929] Is he joking or did they really turn Batgirl into a villain, and who's stupid idea was it it? [/spoiler:b298fb3929]
[spoiler:2ecf29ca0f]She's been antagonizing Robin OYL. Cass now runs the League of Assassins and apparently speaks/writes Navajo, despite just learning how to speak at all. She got Robin to free David Cain, so she could have Robin kill him, but Robin wouldn't, so they fought, and in the middle of the fight an explosion went off and they both ran away.
As for your second question, probably Didio because he's retarded.[/spoiler:2ecf29ca0f]
[spoiler:781275d646]The problem I see with all this right now is doesn't Bats know by now? He's not goign to have a repeat of Jason Todd running around. The Batman we know and love would hunt her down and slap her around a bit with a speech about how he won't allow anymore Jason Todd's out into the world. He should have shut her down by now because he wouldn't allow it. If this goes on they have to reveal it was an undercover job at some point, because I can not and will not beleive that he'd allow this otherwise.[/spoiler:781275d646]
[spoiler:8eab9dbff8] didn't they kind of allude to her not really being cass with the whole "there were others" line in the last issue of robin? sort of the whole "bad twin" thing. anyway, thats what Im hoping for.[/spoiler:8eab9dbff8]
Batman would already know and Cass would be brought to justice. Look what he did with [spoiler:867682f453]Leslie Thomkins(sp?)[/spoiler:867682f453]
Robin already told Batman that "he's going to take care of it" I figure Batman is respecting Tim's ability to handle the problem. Plus you need to count different time frames and a little comic book magic.
PSN: OrneryRooster
Wait. Wait. WAIT.
[spoiler:c60b1b2932]What the fuck happened with Leslie Thomkins?[/spoiler:c60b1b2932]
[spoiler:b676bf7072]She gave left all her money to Spoiler's daughter and fled to Africa, where Batman told her that she was just another murderer and if she came back to the US, he'd have her arrested.[/spoiler:b676bf7072]
[spoiler:e6770d8900]No, no, what did she do? I didn't read War Games.[/spoiler:e6770d8900]
She didn't give Spoiler the treatment she needed after Black Mask beat the shit out of her, resulting in Spoiler's death. She did it on purpose to send a message to Batman saying that he needs to stop using children in his war on crime.
FUCK.
What is with DC's propensity for making the friends and family of their heroes into absolute dicks? They pulled this shit with Ruin, too. FUCK.
[spoiler:2e4c213f48]Turning her into a monologuing, "Hahaha! You'll never defeat me!" villain who can get her ass kicked by Robin, when she's been shown to be one of, if not the best hand to hand fighter in the entire fucking world, just reeks of stupid editorial mandated bullshit. But fuck, at least now we get to have Batwoman the lesbian wonder.[/spoiler:2e4c213f48]
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Wait, no.... Batman found Spoiler dead, didn't he?
[edit] Scratch that, re-read it. I guess I was confusing her with Jason Todd. When does Leslie reveal that she did it on purpose though, I've not read this. She does look mighty shifty though, so possibly soon after?
Anally.
Also, Cassie was in a Lazerus Pit, which could affect her personality. Maybe not teach her how to write in Navajo code, but you never know.
Still nitpicking about the Navajo thing? Are we all just reaching for excuses?
PSN: OrneryRooster
Yea, I'm blaming it on the Pit. I remember the thing with Leslie too, though I don't remember when.