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Got Milk?

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Posts

  • itylusitylus Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Savant wrote: »
    Well, for some reason humans evolved to have a sizeable portion of the population not to be lactose intolerant past infancy, a trait which is fairly unique to us. This suggests to me that there was some decent health benefit to humanity at some point in time for milk, even if it was only localized to some areas or for the earlier part of life.

    If you've got a big piece of land that will only support grass (i.e., no tomatoes or fruit trees or whatever) then you can only use that land to raise livestock. Food products from animals basically boils down to three kinds: milk, eggs, and meat. A diet consisting of all three is, I'm guessing, considerably healthier than one consisting of only one or two of those things. Plus, the logistics of subsisting on one cow's milk is a lot simpler than the logistics of subsisting on one cow's meat... if you see what I mean. So it allows you to survive on a smaller subdivision of land.

    itylus on
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  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2007
    itylus wrote: »
    Savant wrote: »
    Well, for some reason humans evolved to have a sizeable portion of the population not to be lactose intolerant past infancy, a trait which is fairly unique to us. This suggests to me that there was some decent health benefit to humanity at some point in time for milk, even if it was only localized to some areas or for the earlier part of life.

    If you've got a big piece of land that will only support grass (i.e., no tomatoes or fruit trees or whatever) then you can only use that land to raise livestock.

    I know what you're getting at here, and you're not wrong exactly, but the above just doesn't happen with even minimal intervention. For one thing, the livestock's leavings could enrich the soil sufficiently within a few seasons to start growing other stuff, so long as you've got a basic water supply.

    The Cat on
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  • itylusitylus Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    I know what you're getting at here, and you're not wrong exactly, but the above just doesn't happen with even minimal intervention. For one thing, the livestock's leavings could enrich the soil sufficiently within a few seasons to start growing other stuff, so long as you've got a basic water supply.

    My understanding is that there are people who live on Siberian/Central Asian steppe who eat nothing but milk and meat for a considerable part of the year... but this understanding is based on vague memories of things I may have read long ago, so I'm not going to insist it has any degree of veracity. :)

    itylus on
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    And I acknowledged that, a percentage less but still a significant amount. But aren't you sort of diverting from the point? Cheeses and yogurts are some of the most common aggravators of lactose intolerance. That's the real-world salient point we're debating. Yar = win.

    why would they aggravate the problem if there's less in them? Think logically plskthnx

    If I give you a pint of cyanide-OJ and a shot of cyanide-OJ, you're not taking either one even though there's less poison in the shot, right?

    ViolentChemistry on
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  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    And I acknowledged that, a percentage less but still a significant amount. But aren't you sort of diverting from the point? Cheeses and yogurts are some of the most common aggravators of lactose intolerance. That's the real-world salient point we're debating. Yar = win.

    why would they aggravate the problem if there's less in them? Think logically plskthnx

    If I give you a pint of cyanide-OJ and a shot of cyanide-OJ, you're not taking either one even though there's less poison in the shot, right?

    Lactose is entirely unlike a deadly poison.

    Except that it has mass and volume and can come in a cup. "It's some percent lower" could mean the difference between Everclear and Bacardi 151 or the difference between Jack and beer.

    Even then, it's not like you can't get drunk on beer because the percent is lower than Jack.

    ViolentChemistry on
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  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    And I acknowledged that, a percentage less but still a significant amount. But aren't you sort of diverting from the point? Cheeses and yogurts are some of the most common aggravators of lactose intolerance. That's the real-world salient point we're debating. Yar = win.

    why would they aggravate the problem if there's less in them? Think logically plskthnx

    If I give you a pint of cyanide-OJ and a shot of cyanide-OJ, you're not taking either one even though there's less poison in the shot, right?

    Except that its common advice that small lactose doses can build up resistance again. Apparently, enough parmesan will make you the Dread Pirate Roberts of dairy.

    The Cat on
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  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    And I acknowledged that, a percentage less but still a significant amount. But aren't you sort of diverting from the point? Cheeses and yogurts are some of the most common aggravators of lactose intolerance. That's the real-world salient point we're debating. Yar = win.

    why would they aggravate the problem if there's less in them? Think logically plskthnx

    If I give you a pint of cyanide-OJ and a shot of cyanide-OJ, you're not taking either one even though there's less poison in the shot, right?

    Except that its common advice that small lactose doses can build up resistance again. Apparently, enough parmesan will make you the Dread Pirate Roberts of dairy.

    So the real question is what mass of lactose is present in three slices of pizza (minimum humane share per person of an ordered pizza) versus a glass of milk.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    why would they aggravate the problem if there's less in them? Think logically plskthnx
    I'm going to pretend that was a joke. Or otherwise the "think logically" part is just hilarious.

    They aggravate the problem because they have significantly high levels of lactose, despite those levels being less than milk, all depending on how much of each you consume.

    Yogurt, swiss cheese, and cottage cheese are listed as some of the most common aggravators of symptoms in those with lactose intolerance. Along with milk.

    Which means I was correct, and you're being a fucking douche about it at this point.

    Your argument seems to be that because their lactose content is some amount less than milk, it is therefore impossible for them to affect people with lactose intolerance. I'm trying to figure out how your brain works.

    Also, yes, research seems to indicate that lactose tolerance is something we've evolved to. That doesn't make it good for you. It's better than starving and can definitely supplement a diet that is lacking in some key vitamins and minerals, but the dietary options available to those of us in the industrialized world make it more harm than good.

    Yar on
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  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    Is Vitamin Water okay? Because I like Vitamin Water, and it claims to contain vitamins.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • Casual EddyCasual Eddy The Astral PlaneRegistered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Diet coke with vitamins in it is where it's at.

    (I am lying.)

    Casual Eddy on
  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    the sun, the giver of all energy kills you if you go outside. I gave up when I realized that.

    mastman on
    ByalIX8.png
    B.net: Kusanku
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited September 2007
    From the Mayo Clinic site on lactose intolerance:
    Experiment with an assortment of dairy products. Not all dairy products have the same amount of lactose. For example, hard cheeses such as Swiss or cheddar have small amounts of lactose and generally cause no symptoms. You may well be able to tolerate cultured milk products, such as yogurt, because the bacteria used in the culturing process naturally produce the enzyme that breaks down lactose. However, some yogurts have milk added back after fermentation and may cause symptoms. Substitute nondairy coffee creamers or soy or rice milk.

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/lactose-intolerance/DS00530/DSECTION=7

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    This is getting silly.

    California Pacific Medical Center

    Lists all of those as foods that lactose intolerant should avoid.

    The bottom line is that lactose intolerance can be mild to severe, and those in the severe category can't even handle a few milligrams of lactose that may appear in various processed foods, while those in the mild category are fine until they down two glasses of skim milk. There's no reason to think that someone who gets sick on cheese or yogurt is mistaken - many people are very sensitive to those levels of lactose.

    Yar on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Yar wrote: »
    The bottom line is that lactose intolerance can be mild to severe, and those in the severe category can't even handle a few milligrams of lactose that may appear in various processed foods, while those in the mild category are fine until they down two glasses of skim milk. There's no reason to think that someone who gets sick on cheese or yogurt is mistaken - many people are very sensitive to those levels of lactose.

    Okay, fair enough.

    I'll admit that my original comment was in part a response to people who are much like the "smug vegetarians" we're speaking of in a different thread. I've met (white, European-ancestral) people who refuse to eat even small amounts of cheese because they're "lactose intolerant." They tend to be picky eaters anyway.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • PataPata Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    mastman wrote: »
    the sun, the giver of all energy kills you if you go outside. I gave up when I realized that.

    Seriously.

    If milk does have risks, they don't seem that high.

    Everything can kill you.

    Life is the number one cause of death.

    Pata on
    SRWWSig.pngEpisode 5: Mecha-World, Mecha-nisim, Mecha-beasts
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Pata wrote: »
    mastman wrote: »
    the sun, the giver of all energy kills you if you go outside. I gave up when I realized that.

    Seriously.

    If milk does have risks, they don't seem that high.

    Everything can kill you.

    Life is the number one cause of death.

    Research has been shown to cause cancer in lab rats.

    Tofystedeth on
    steam_sig.png
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Feral wrote: »
    Okay, fair enough.

    I'll admit that my original comment was in part a response to people who are much like the "smug vegetarians" we're speaking of in a different thread. I've met (white, European-ancestral) people who refuse to eat even small amounts of cheese because they're "lactose intolerant." They tend to be picky eaters anyway.
    No doubt a lot of assholes use fake food allergies as a way to try to make sure people don't serve them food they don't want. There was a Sex and the City episode about it. But I also sympathize with the fact that if I say "no cheese on my burger please" or "no nuts in my salad please" there is still a 97% that they will forget and include them anyway, whereas that percentage drops significantly if you act like a douche and claim lactose intolerance or nut allergies.
    Pata wrote: »
    mastman wrote: »
    the sun, the giver of all energy kills you if you go outside. I gave up when I realized that.

    Seriously.

    If milk does have risks, they don't seem that high.

    Everything can kill you.

    Life is the number one cause of death.
    Again, the issue isn't that milk is the devil, it's that it has been traditionally advertised as a health product, when in fact it is probably a general rule that you are better off not drinking than drinking it, and still today is recommended by our government at levels that are probably at least triple that which is reasonably believed to be valuable, and it is doubtful if any amount is valuable.

    For the record, for all my bitchin', I chug the milk daily and I'm a sucker for all sorts of milk and milkfat products.

    Yar on
  • PataPata Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Pata wrote: »
    mastman wrote: »
    the sun, the giver of all energy kills you if you go outside. I gave up when I realized that.

    Seriously.

    If milk does have risks, they don't seem that high.

    Everything can kill you.

    Life is the number one cause of death.

    Research has been shown to cause cancer in lab rats.

    We must stop all research immediately.

    Pata on
    SRWWSig.pngEpisode 5: Mecha-World, Mecha-nisim, Mecha-beasts
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