While yes, the Wii has gateway drugs, for me the amount of heroin it has for me to move up to is being reduced while the PS3 and 360 have more crack then you can shake a stick at.
I can only stay on class c drugs for so long. i need my fix of the hard stuff and the wii, while it does have some, has less than the others.
and its nearly been a year since launch, galaxy and brawl are the wiis gears of war, the start of the 2nd gen of games, but where is the wiis graw 2, or vegas, or crackdown, or halo 3. there is not much on the horizon past this fall for wii other than promises of good games to come. whereas the 360 and more so the ps3 have concrete games shown already playable that are triple a huge games for 2008, while ALSO having more triple a stuff this fall.
the wii is good, but not as good as the 360 and ps3 for games, in my opinion of course.
Yes, I know this of course. But when nintendo has wiifit as the headline title for their entire e3 conference, the one game they spend 50% of the time on, you know they are putting a huge focus on it. for example, the previous games that have held this kind of position as the big e3 nintendo game are zeldas, marios and metroids. do you see the change?
does it bother people that i can only perceive wiimote controls to be used for family friendly accessible games for non gamers?
Yes because that's wrong.
I should have worded it better. I mean 'waggle' type controls. While the Wiimote itself can certainly be used in conjunction with the nunchuk for regular games, and as I have said, the controls of MP3 do work well, its the other aspects of the game i felt were not up to the first 2 games standard, i meant to say controls such as Wiisports. simple movements using only the wimmote, not with the nunchuk.
the wiimote on its own has far less functionality for 'traditional' games, and hence why brawl is using classic controls as a basic right? didnt one of the lead designers say it would have full classic controller support and was built around them?
the wiimote + nunchuck is essentially a ps3 controller split in half, with more sensitive motion control. the wiimote on its own requires much different styles of game, as it has no analog stick nor the added waggle of the nunchuck. thats a lot of button functionality missing.
does it bother people that i can only perceive wiimote controls to be used for family friendly accessible games for non gamers?
Yes because that's wrong.
I should have worded it better. I mean 'waggle' type controls. While the Wiimote itself can certainly be used in conjunction with the nunchuk for regular games, and as I have said, the controls of MP3 do work well, its the other aspects of the game i felt were not up to the first 2 games standard, i meant to say controls such as Wiisports. simple movements using only the wimmote, not with the nunchuk.
A racer can easily be controlled with nothing but the remote.
Also, as another example, Sonic and the Secret Rings is not a "casual" game by any means, some of those later levels are hard. And it only uses the remote.
and its nearly been a year since launch, galaxy and brawl are the wiis gears of war, the start of the 2nd gen of games, but where is the wiis graw 2, or vegas, or crackdown, or halo 3. there is not much on the horizon past this fall for wii other than promises of good games to come. whereas the 360 and more so the ps3 have concrete games shown already playable that are triple a huge games for 2008, while ALSO having more triple a stuff this fall.
I'll go for the obvious arguement here. If the PS3 is so much better then the other two systems then why isn't it doing better?
The Wii has more games available and nearly all of them are doing way better then PS3 games. If you're looking for triple a games then just look at the sales figures.
Ubisoft/EA can shit out shovelware in under 6 months. The lag between the release of the Wii and lots of thirdy party traditional games coming out is because before launch, the Wii was a risky platform to develop for, no publisher is going to throw sacks of money at a developer to create an epic, high budget traditional game when the console looked likely to be a big flop. The games are coming, in the next 6/12 months.
this whole "nobody saw that the wii could be a success" thing is a total load of bullshit, an absolute MYTH. The wii, since day one, has gotten a TON of press, and given the super retarded success that the DS was, was already being given the same kind of excitement level that's given to apple products upon their announcement. Sony didn't stick motion control in their controller because they saw the wii as a possible failure. And ubisoft didn't dedicate new franchises to the console on launch because it might fail.
Scarab said it best. he didn't say it with doom, he said it with tact, honesty, and rationale. My hype for the wii wore off especially after MP3 was, personally, not nearly the step forward it should have been.
Everyone keeps saying "the games are coming!" but aside from nintendo fair, are they really? What actual BIG franchise announcements have their been? Almost none. Games are being made, absolutely, but the big announcements of heavy development being suddenly shifted just aren't there and you know it.
does it bother people that i can only perceive wiimote controls to be used for family friendly accessible games for non gamers?
Yes because that's wrong.
I should have worded it better. I mean 'waggle' type controls. While the Wiimote itself can certainly be used in conjunction with the nunchuk for regular games, and as I have said, the controls of MP3 do work well, its the other aspects of the game i felt were not up to the first 2 games standard, i meant to say controls such as Wiisports. simple movements using only the wimmote, not with the nunchuk.
A racer can easily be controlled with nothing but the remote.
Also, as another example, Sonic and the Secret Rings is not a "casual" game by any means, some of those later levels are hard. And it only uses the remote.
Interesting that you would take a defensive tone on my comments. As I said, im just expressing my opinion. Dont take it as an affront.
I think for this discussion to continue we need a conversation on the definition of 'casual' and 'hardcore' because thats always confusiong things in this thread.
while yes, sonic is definetly not 'casual' in your sense, it is accessible. its controls are about as basic as they come and the gameplay was extremely linear, as was the level design. when i was talking about games being accessible it wasnt as a criticism, games should be accessible, i mean look at that mech game with the 50 button custom controller. complicated does not equal fun.
but depth does. there is no depth to sonic and the secret rings. its fun, for a time. and as you said it does get more difficult (though id hardly say it got hard or very hard) but it is pretty basic. as is excite truck.
this ties directly to my comments of the fun of the wii 'wearing off'.
most of these games are super fun right off the bat. wiisports you can pick up and have more fun than most other games in 30 seconds, even if you never played ANY video games before.
but 12 months down the line, i want to have depth to my games. i have nearly no reason to replay sonic, or excite truck. there is no reward for mastering excite truck. and while its a pretty bad game anyways, the fact that it has really basic controls and shallow gameplay means that it is a trend i see in a lot of wii games.
fun for a while, then lacking lasting appeal. even twilight princess, which is arguably the best wii game, has no lasting appeal. and wiisports becomes not fun to play unless you have friends round after 6 months. tops.
i understand that accessible games should be more commonplace, lord knows gaming has been branded in a bad light for complex systems and controls since like ever, but there is a difference between accessible and basic. and the wii, at the moment, has incredibly basic games. didnt that dragon quest get ripped apart for being a game for babies?
nothing wrong with that, but me, as a twenty something hardcore gamer, i want something with more bite.
I'm personally surprised it took as long as it did for WiiSports games to be expanded into full games. Is there even a tennis game on the Wii yet? Golf was pretty quick with Hot Shots and Tiger Woods, but Bowling came out semi-recently, Baseball I'm not even sure about, boxing? It was a natural progressing to go from super-simple sports games to providing a deeper experience and even a more personalized Mii system for that game (like Tiger game-face but start with the Mii).
1) WiiFit is coming
2) In its first year, the library is somewhat lacking to my tastes
3) ???
4) DOOM!!!!!!!!
He presents his arguments in a very calm, logical way - but it's the same (asinine) argument flame-bait trolls rant all over the web. The basic premise of "WiiFit will make $$! No one EVER TO MAKE REAL GAMES AGAIN REPENT SINNERS!!!!!!" is just pure BS. If it were true, you'd see nothing but shovelware already because the same basic reasoning applies: it's cheaper to make and will always have enough sales to produce profit. Or, given this week, nothing but online multiplayer space marine FPS games. So why is that not the case? Because there's still a market for other games, and thus additional money to be made.
The discovery of a profitable new market segment doesn't suddenly kill off all the others. For example, Toyota notices that US automakers make a killing selling full size trucks and SUVs. Does it kill of the Camry to make its own big truck? Hell no. It doesn't want to desert a proven moneymaker to risk it's solid financial status on breaking into a competitive market currently dominated by other players - it just wants a piece of the pie (preferably as big a piece as it can get, of course). They aren't choosing either/or, because both markets bring in profit - they want BOTH.
I can understand how the game lineup would be unispiring, since that's subjective. But the 'WiiFiit will doom us ALL!!!!' line of thinking just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
I never said WiiFit would cause bad games to come. I said 'different games', ones which do not appeal to me.
There is no doubt WiiSports is a truly excellent game, the gameplay is fun, its accessible and enjoyable for everyone.
Just cause I dont like a game doesnt make it bad (though I am Gaming Moses hehe...)
My point is, if people would read rather than skim read: that WiiFit is, and it will, there is no debate here, going to be a ludicrously huge success that other games will move in a similar direction.
Im not saying this makes them bad, or inferior in ANY way at all. Im just saying, Nintendo doesnt make games for me anymore. Ive got no problem with that and hell, the irony that for the first time in a long time Nintendo is dominating like it did in the NES days is the same time I lose interest in their games.
Galaxy is sure to be excellent. truly excellent. I can appreciate how people will like it. the graphics really push the Wii, the gameplay is well designed and implemented, and with an extra years polish the game is bound to represent the nintendo seal of quality well.
but I have always said Brawl has me more excited than galaxy. be it the controls of galaxy, or the art direction, or the level design, it just doesnt appeal to me as much as I would have expected. Its still on my to buy list and Ill probably enjoy it a lot, but its not got me quivering with hype like, say, resident evil 5. Or MGS4.
The point I was being extremely careful in making is that I am not at all saying Nintendo games will suddenly become bad. they wont. They will still be a pillar of excellence in an industry rife with mediocrity.
My point was that the games will be different, and while people dont like change is a bad excuse, for me it rings true.
Sure, they will still produce some games I like and I have no doubt some of their games will be on my GOTY list. But my argument is when 50% of their games cater to me and 50% dont while 100% of Microsoft games do and so too with Sony.
Im just using simplistic figures here of course, but it still stands, Nintendo, by moving into a new market will produce fewer hardcore games due to this. Doesnt mean their new games are bad, at all, just means they arent 'for me'. Ive got no problem with that, but the Wii excitement is wearing off and I know I am not the only one to feel it.
Nintendo fans seem to take serious offense to someone not liking the Wii, as though they are somehow not seeing the big picture or narrow minded. No. I fully appreciate every aspect of the Wii, I understand the direction it is going, I am fully capable of playing games well on it, the controls dont baffle me, and im not offended by bright colours or imaginitive gameplay. Im just saying that stuff no longer interests me. Maybe Im maturing my gaming tastes and need something a bit heavier. Maybe, and no im not pulling the olol kidtendo thing here, that the accessible gameplay Nintendo is promoting is, as mentioned, a good gateway drug, but Ive been playing games so long I need to move up to the hardcore drugs, and Nintendo has some of it, but Microsoft and Sony have more.
The_Scarab on
0
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited September 2007
Really, all I heard him say was that after Galaxy and Brawl we don't know what else is coming out...but I understand that point.
Really, the only console that has their 08 plans clearly fleshed out is Sony. And that's more so because that's the year their hits come out.
All I can really do to respond is reiterate my previous statement. The wii has plenty of downright, fantastic games.
If it's not for you, then it's not for you. That's fair. The wii can't do what the 360 can and vice versa. If you're more of the type to lean towards games on the HD platforms then good for you. That's great.
But to argue that the success of wii sports and the future success of wii fit has been and will be a detriment to the quality of games on the wii is downright wrong. To say that the wii only has mini-games and wii sports knockoffs is downright wrong. Personally, I've enjoyed the wii's first year far more than I did the 360's and the comparison you're making at the moment is slightly unfair. The 360 is well into its second year and arguably only just now coming into its own. There will be mini-games on the wii and there will be imitators of those two aforementioned games but their relative impact has been and, I'll argue will be, inconsequential.
Im just using simplistic figures here of course, but it still stands, Nintendo, by moving into a new market will produce fewer hardcore games due to this.
I just don't understand how there is any evidence for this.
All I can really do to respond is reiterate my previous statement. The wii has plenty of downright, fantastic games.
If it's not for you, then it's not for you. That's fair. The wii can't do what the 360 can and vice versa. If you're more of the type to lean towards games on the HD platforms then good for you. That's great.
But to argue that the success of wii sports and the future success of wii fit has been and will be a detriment to the quality of games on the wii is downright wrong. To say that the wii only has mini-games and wii sports knockoffs is downright wrong. Personally, I've enjoyed the wii's first year far more than I did the 360's and the comparison you're making at the moment is slightly unfair. The 360 is well into its second year and arguably only just now coming into its own. There will be mini-games on the wii and there will be imitators of those two aforementioned games but their relative impact has been and, I'll argue will be, inconsequential.
I agree completely. If its not for me its not for me. If anything, people should feel pity that I am 'missing out' or something. I geniunely want to enjoy the Wii but just dont.
As for 'nothing but wiisports and mini games' Im not sure if it was clear but I was making a direct quote there from 1up. its a pretty infamous quite from one of their e3 shows that does the rounds over at gaf. i know the wii is not just minigames and wiisports, but the top 10 selling list makes for distrubing reading.
also, yes, the wii is in its first year. perhaps i should have added that as a caveat for my entire discussion.
HOWEVER, the same can be said for the 360. this far into the 360 lifespan the fun was indeed starting to wane just like Im feeling now with the wii. then gears of war hit and started another 12 month unbroken chain of excellent high profile well reviewed games.
i was saying galaxy and perhaps brawl will be watershed for nintendo. their first year is up. now they need to prove themselves to me. galaxy and brawl may well be nintendos gears, if you see what i mean. i think i said this. the start of their 2nd gen of games for the console.
whenever i compare consoles, usually i compare them at the same point in their lifespan. 360 had not much for the first 6-7 months, and its launch games were good but nothing special (except perhaps pgr3, which was fun).
however, like ive said before. the 360s headstart by a year wasnt luck, it was a planned strategic business move by microsoft. so comparing the 360 NOW to the Wii and PS3 NOW is completely fair. the reason the 360 has better games NOW than the others isnt some magical co-incidence, its a planned move by Microsoft and its paying off. this also is not an excuse you can make for the lackluster lineup of other consoles compared to the 360. they had an extra year to develop their console, and i hate it when people misjudge microsofts business acumen. they invented this shit guys, they know what theyre doing.
sure, the wii is coming up to its first anniversary. just like the 360, it has to prove itself now.
Don't knock me for skimming your posts when you do the same to me. I wasn't debating your taste in games, I was challenging you assertion that WiiFit is going to threaten the creation of more hardcore games like you seem to think (and recasting it in a more familiar form, because the argument is the same even if you are well educated enough to realize your opinion isn't a binding fact), and you've come up with no rebuttal to that other than 'uh, yeah it is'. They aren't competing for resources - in case you hadn't noticed, Nintendo has a *bit* of cash to fund multiple development projects, and all of them stand to make money if they're any good at all.
Really, I can't get more out of your argument than "WiiFit will be a success, so I'll have fewer hardcore games to play on my Wii" - which I provided a neat argument against, as have many others. You can restate your opinion as many times as you like, but it doesn't really matter. There's no back and forth here, just a continuous restating of your opinion that WiiFit will somehow result in fewer choices that meet your tastes.
Im just using simplistic figures here of course, but it still stands, Nintendo, by moving into a new market will produce fewer hardcore games due to this.
I just don't understand how there is any evidence for this.
Again, my fault. Bad wording. I meant fewer hardcore games proportionally. even if they vastly enlarge their development devision, which i dont think they have done, if anything they have sold more companies than they have created, because they have remained pretty much the same size as a development house as opposed to a hardware manufacturer, and produce as many games as they did before, this means while the amount of hardcore games may remain the same (unlikely) compared to how many other companies are making, companies that ONLY make hardcore games, this is less.
I apologise, I feel like the last page has been me explaining parts of my discussion that i worded badly. I think I should maybe put more time into my posts if I spark up a discussion again. I feel like an apologist for my first post at this stage. it was full of badly worded vaguaries and I think it is perfectly fair for people to call me out on it. I strive to be more accurate and comprehendable next time.
The thing about Wii Fit's success leading to a glut of "non-games" (and I don't agree with that term; Wii Fit is a game) is that things don't tend to work that way.
If they did, why didn't 3rd-party developers all abandon stuff like Resident Evil, Devil May Cry, and Metal Gear for DDR and Singstar clones in the PS2 era? If it was really true that hugely popular "casual" games were the death knell of "hardcore" games on any platform, then surely we would have seen this happen by now. It's not as if Wii Sports is the first "casual" game or anything.
So I really don't see Wii Fit destroying hardcore gaming on the Wii. Heck, if anything, I would think that it would make third-party developers shy away from releasing a similar title, because Nintendo's got that wrapped up. It's not like we've seen a ton of Wii Sports knockoffs.
And I think saying anything definitive about what the Wii's software lineup is going to be at this point is just a really bad idea. Like I've said a lot - software during a console's first years is in absolutely no way indicative of what the landscape for that console is ultimately going to look like. Anyone remember the Playstation's first year? Because I do.
I'd also like to address this because I think it's interesting:
call me old fashioned
On the contrary; I see this lack of interest in what's coming to the Wii vs. a great interest in the FPS and similar games coming out on other platforms to be an entirely new phenomenon.
Well, clearly the Wii's wiimote only controls couldn't be used in such complex hardcore games like Brawl or Metal Slug. Oh wait, they are. There is a wii-mote only, nunchuck, and CC control scheme for both of those games.
Right now the issue seems to be laziness on the part of developers who didn't realize how successful the wii was going to be. Especially FPS developers like EA and Ubisoft, but there's really no excuse for bad FPS's on the Wii after MP3 demonstrated how they should work.
Now then, you seem to be complaining in your last post (correct my if I'm wrong) that Nintendo won't be focusing exclusively on the hardcore audience like yourself because they have to be making games for this new market that only wants games like WiiFIT and Wii Sports. YOu don't want their attentiont to be split because you think it will result in less games that appeal to you, but is this really how it's working in practice? Is there any particular Nintendo series that you think will not get a sequel on the Wii or will be ignored because of the new causal games? There's already a new Zelda game in development, Smash is coming out soon, as is Galaxy, BWii is coming out with online coop and is looking awesome, Fire Emblem is coming out this fall, and Mario Kart next year. What's missing? Pikmin? I doubt they're abandoning that, as the Wii seems perfect for it, and the King Story game looks very similar anyway.
So, what exactly is Nintendo going to stop making because of the new casual games? As for non-Nintendo, you've got No More Heroes and King story and that new Vanillaware game all recently announced. Games take a long time to make, and many companies didn't start developing until after the Wii was released, so just be patient, stay calm, be happy that any great 3rd party games won't have to directly compete with all those awesome Nintendo games coming out this fall.
mmk. to clarify, i completely understand your point of view, scarab. it makes sense and it is a fair assessment. but it is just one man's my opinion of the 360, which still as of yet has not convinced me of next gen gaming (i thought such a revelation would come with halo 3 but it didn't. maybe it will with mass effect), is hardly the norm and i would never express it as such.
2008 will be very telling for the wii. I'm of the opinion that if we're not blown away by third party support at next year's E3 then wii-enthusiasm will fade away into the background by the end of it's third year.
I think you're thinking more or less the same thing (though with probably a shorter time frame). The main difference is that I'm a bit more optimistic than you are.
Guek on
0
syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
edited September 2007
With regards to people pointing at the DS as proof of the future of 3rd party and "hardcore" Wii titles (god we need a new name for that)
DS games like Castlevania and Final Fantasy III/IV exist because the DS is a HUGELY dominant platform with a virtual lack of competition (I love the PSP, but it's apples and oranges here), riding on the heels of the most impressive legacy in gaming history (the game boy) and people don't demand state of the art from their handhelds, simply portability. People saying "look at the DS!" to see the future of the Wii is a bit of a misnomer, because the Wii is a new entity right out of the gate, which IS in competition with Microsoft and Sony for the titles I like to play. Furthermore, at least currently, software moves faster on the 360, so developers looking at the bottom line consider things like this when making new titles (hence Capcom's love of the platform).
None of us have crystal balls, but one thing it doesn't take Miss Cleo to see is that the gaming market is going to be far more fragmented than it was last generation as a result of the paths Nintendo and Microsoft/Sony chose to take this goaround. One console will not give you the entire generation.
syndalis on
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
See, before I left for a few hours to get some work done, I thought that for the most part I can see where The Scarab is coming from, then I read some of this stuff.
Saying that there were no comparable first year titles between the two systems.
Mentioning the fact that people including himself will be playing GoW and Halo 3 until 2010 while completely ignoring the fact that people will be playing Brawl until the next sequel comes out, probably sometime in 2013.
There haven't been that many RR/WW/MP clones. Sure, there have been some minigame fests, so it is different from the 360/PS3, which honestly have none of those games, at least none that are any good.
His oh, how many of those games are honestly going to be 90% spiel was classic. Well, lets see. First 13 months after release we have we'll have what, Zelda, RE4, Metroid, Brawl, Galaxy. What did the 360 have in that same time frame? Oblivion, I suppose, Dead Rising, and GoW. Talk about a slow start. There is a ton of quality down the pipe for the Wii, from Nintendo and others. Look to the east my friend. We can barely go a week around here without reporting that some game is coming from Japan exclusively for the Wii. Sure, right now most of them are slightly smaller titles, but its a damn sight more than the 360 is getting.
If you compare XBLA's first year and the VC's first year, I'd think most sane people (or at least sane people who don't pirate) would take the VC. If you compare them both as they are now you could make a strong case for the XBLA.
So right now what exactly does the 360 have over the Wii? Graphics? The same old sports games, FPS, and racing games, with a shiner coat of paint? A bunch of titles that will eventually end up (or already are) on the PC? Achievements? Wow, point collection, what a modern fucking innovation in video games. Charging to play online? Oh man, matchmaking and friend's lists are so expensive.
Really, I can't get more out of your argument than "WiiFit will be a success, so I'll have fewer hardcore games to play on my Wii" - which I provided a neat argument against, as have many others. You can restate your opinion as many times as you like, but it doesn't really matter. There's no back and forth here, just a continuous restating of your opinion that WiiFit will somehow result in fewer choices that meet your tastes.
Well going by the example of the DS, Id say its a fair prediction to make. the 'I blame Wiifit' argument, as I said, is perfectly valid.
If you want me to do some proper research I can have a word with some guys at the office tomorrow, maybe do a full article on it. Heck, Ill post it here first if you need.
I can dig up company expendiature figures, sales figures, employment (I believe Nintendo has not expanded at all since the Wii came out, and by nintendo Im talking purely about the development houses, 2nd party and 1st party developers)
The point is, this isnt some mad prediction. It is a continuation of a trend which started way back with the inception of the DS.
Tell you what, lets just get back to sales figures, Ill write up a full article on it, cite some figures, quote some shit, and Ill get back to ya.
Im not badmouthing you at all. In fact, Im glad people are calling me on my opinions and argument so much. Keeps me honest and stops me falling into the trap of sounding like a fanboy, which I am trying my hardest to avoid.
I agree, I have stated not much more than 'I think this will happen, nyah nyah', having said that, as I said, most of my so called 'opinions' are more than just guesses, they are educated estimations based off of a lot of data, from game review grades to sales and expansion.
Im pretty good as predicting things. Thats not only part of my job but Ill admit it, Im nigh on obsessive when it comes to sales threads. fact is important to me, which is why I made it quite clear that everything I said was an opinion. I hope that Im wrong, I really do. You may find this hard to believe but I try to be as clear as I can on this stuff. The gaming industry is far far more complicated than 95% of the gaming community realise, and Im taking it upon myself to be as analytical and objective as I can.
When I say 'Wiifit will doom us all' (not what I actually said nor meant but regardless:) Im not saying this WILL happen, im saying I believe it will. An important decision and I tried to avoid the 'Im concerned that....' or 'My main worry is....' type of post because they are so often a get out clause for fanboy sniping ('Its my opinion, I can say whatever I want')
This is probably the first civil discussion I've ever seen on this topic. Bravo.
There's nothing wrong with Scarab's position, since it's clear that no gaming company can please everyone at all times.
What is wrong is, as JihadJesus pointed out, that WiiFit and the Wii in general is in fact dangerous to the industry as a whole. As if the success of the Wii, with its underpowered graphics and novelty controls and casual appeal is going to destroy hardcore market.
Not when Halo 3 sells 2.5 million copies its first day. Not when BioShock gets perfect reviews. Not when Mass Effect is critically hailed as a possible game of the year.
If WiiFit manages to beat Halo 3's launch day sales, then maybe a radical paradigm shift is in the works. But it seems more likely that it's going to be a slow burn, pulling in significant numbers for a prolonged period of time.
The real issue is that the hardcore audience has acquired a sense of elitism, feeling that gaming is their medium, and that companies should appeal to them first and foremost. That's why games like Madden have been targeted in the past as being a spigot for casual gamers, and why the Wii is targeted now.
The best one can hope for is that cooler heads will prevail.
I just don't see the evidence of any first party lack of hardcore games. If Nintendo is diverting resources from some internal R and D, where is the practical effect of this? What series is getting the shaft here? I understand your fears, but I don't see where it's actually happening.
With regards to people pointing at the DS as proof of the future of 3rd party and "hardcore" Wii titles (god we need a new name for that)
DS games like Castlevania and Final Fantasy III/IV exist because the DS is a HUGELY dominant platform with a virtual lack of competition (I love the PSP, but it's apples and oranges here), riding on the heels of the most impressive legacy in gaming history (the game boy) and people don't demand state of the art from their handhelds, simply portability. People saying "look at the DS!" to see the future of the Wii is a bit of a misnomer, because the Wii is a new entity right out of the gate, which IS in competition with Microsoft and Sony for the titles I like to play. Furthermore, at least currently, software moves faster on the 360, so developers looking at the bottom line consider things like this when making new titles (hence Capcom's love of the platform).
None of us have crystal balls, but one thing it doesn't take Miss Cleo to see is that the gaming market is going to be far more fragmented than it was last generation as a result of the paths Nintendo and Microsoft/Sony chose to take this goaround. One console will not give you the entire generation.
I'm pretty sure all previous generations have been about as fragmented, its just as this business of video games swells to titanic proportions it is a lot easier to notice. Nintendo has always done its own thing, for better or worse. It's funny when you see die hard fans like Matt C. over at IGN try to will Nintendo into change. The system must have HD, the system needs next gen graphics, the system needs optical and digital outputs, yadda, yadda. No a good video game system needs none of those things. It needs to have fun games. Sure, one of the tools Nintendo is utilizing is to force developers to think outside the box when it comes to making games for their system. Look really hard at the first two years or so of third party releases on the DS. A ton of crap polishing a few rare diamonds. Too many DS features, or two few, lazily done. Now though, the majority of my most anticipated games are 3rd party endeavors. This I predict will happen for the Wii as well. I'm also very good at prediction, so let's hope I'm right.
I don't think he's trying to say that WiiFit and the like are a danger to the market as a whole. He's trying to say that it's a danger to games on the Wii. The idea being that there will simply be less "hardcore" games on the Wii then on the other 2 systems. Leaving the Wii as a fun system, with not many deep games.
So right now what exactly does the 360 have over the Wii? Graphics? The same old sports games, FPS, and racing games, with a shiner coat of paint? A bunch of titles that will eventually end up (or already are) on the PC? Achievements? Wow, point collection, what a modern fucking innovation in video games. Charging to play online? Oh man, matchmaking and friend's lists are so expensive.
Well if you want to make arbitrary 'better/worse' comments then fine. The Wii is different, not superior, nor worse either.
Sure its a bad thing that you pay to play online with the 360, but at least you can play online. And sure the graphics are better, but I dont understand why most people dismiss graphical fidelity as an unimportant feature when talking about the console wars. Graphics do matter and it IS NOT shallow or misinformed to consider them important.
this is what I was talking about, Nintendo defense usually boils down to 'you just dont 'get' wii' or 'haha, how narrow minded are you. expand your mind and embrace wii'.
Like I said, so what if I want to play Halo over Brawl. so do 3 million other people. Or Madden over Galaxy. Does that make you an elitist jerk who regards these people as some sort of naive 'mob' or does it mean you are ignorant of the wider gaming scene. Or both.
As for the again, arbitrary and subjective 'over 90%' comment: look again. in the first 12 months, Wii has two games with a metascore over 90: zelda, metroid. 360 had 2, gears and oblivion. a fair assessment. if you go deeper and compare the 80 range, or the 70s, the 360 is frontloaded with higher reviewed games than the wii. like i said above, ill conclude all of this in a better written properly reaearched article if needsb be.
Scarab, just an FYI, Brawl is made to control with the classic controller. AND the Gamecube controler. AND the Wiimote and nunchuk. AND a wiimote alone.
Also, you're saying a lot of things, but you're missing a big, big point myself and others have made.
Nintendogs, a goddamn pet simulator, came out for the DS and sold 15 million copies. Yet the DS is getting "hardcore" games from third parties out its ears.
Now, why can third-party hardcore games survive Nintendogs, but hardcore games won't survive Wii Fit?
Well, clearly the Wii's wiimote only controls couldn't be used in such complex hardcore games like Brawl or Metal Slug. Oh wait, they are. There is a wii-mote only, nunchuck, and CC control scheme for both of those games.
I didn't know that about Brawl. I thought it was CC and GC controller only.
This should be interesting.
Scarab, just an FYI, Brawl is made to control with the classic controller. AND the Gamecube controler. AND the Wiimote and nunchuk. AND a wiimote alone.
Also, you're saying a lot of things, but you're missing a big, big point myself and others have made.
Nintendogs, a goddamn pet simulator, came out for the DS and sold 15 million copies. Yet the DS is getting "hardcore" games from third parties out its ears.
Now, why can third-party hardcore games survive Nintendogs, but hardcore games won't survive Wii Fit?
I'd imagine that the games being around 10 pounds cheaper to buy and a lot cheaper to develop helps plus a 100 million user base.
I just don't see the evidence of any first party lack of hardcore games. If Nintendo is diverting resources from some internal R and D, where is the practical effect of this? What series is getting the shaft here? I understand your fears, but I don't see where it's actually happening.
people get this notion from nintendo's E3 conference and it's emphasis on wii-fit.
But they clearly explained afterwards that, hey, galaxy, brawl and metroid will get enough press regardless. Everybody is excited for them so pressing those would be redundant. So, instead, they focused on something a lot more non conventional. coming out of that conference and thinking "nintendo is no longer for me" is a really presumptuous and foolhardy way to evaluate the presentation as, from the onset, it wasn't geared towards the hardcore audience anyways. they felt they didn't really need to do that, which is in a lot of ways true, and had they not presented wii fit as strongly as they did, i highly doubt it would have received nearly as much buzz.
that said, i still think they should have projected a bit more of the potential 2008 games that we still don't know anything about. but then again, none of the big three did so i guess that's ok.
Guek on
0
syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
Nintendogs, a goddamn pet simulator, came out for the DS and sold 15 million copies. Yet the DS is getting "hardcore" games from third parties out its ears.
Now, why can third-party hardcore games survive Nintendogs, but hardcore games won't survive Wii Fit?
Because it is the goddamn gameboy, and if Nintendo released "Fluffy Kitten Tickler" for it and it sold 20 million copies, everyone would still put their games on it because it is the final word in handheld gaming, and has an install base soon to trump the PS2.
This is not the case in consolveville. Read my earlier post on last page.
syndalis on
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Scarab, just an FYI, Brawl is made to control with the classic controller. AND the Gamecube controler. AND the Wiimote and nunchuk. AND a wiimote alone.
Also, you're saying a lot of things, but you're missing a big, big point myself and others have made.
Nintendogs, a goddamn pet simulator, came out for the DS and sold 15 million copies. Yet the DS is getting "hardcore" games from third parties out its ears.
Now, why can third-party hardcore games survive Nintendogs, but hardcore games won't survive Wii Fit?
cloudeagle there have been serveral posts addressing that point.
Scarab, just an FYI, Brawl is made to control with the classic controller. AND the Gamecube controler. AND the Wiimote and nunchuk. AND a wiimote alone.
Also, you're saying a lot of things, but you're missing a big, big point myself and others have made.
Nintendogs, a goddamn pet simulator, came out for the DS and sold 15 million copies. Yet the DS is getting "hardcore" games from third parties out its ears.
Now, why can third-party hardcore games survive Nintendogs, but hardcore games won't survive Wii Fit?
cloudeagle there have been serveral posts addressing that point.
Scarab, just an FYI, Brawl is made to control with the classic controller. AND the Gamecube controler. AND the Wiimote and nunchuk. AND a wiimote alone.
Also, you're saying a lot of things, but you're missing a big, big point myself and others have made.
Nintendogs, a goddamn pet simulator, came out for the DS and sold 15 million copies. Yet the DS is getting "hardcore" games from third parties out its ears.
Now, why can third-party hardcore games survive Nintendogs, but hardcore games won't survive Wii Fit?
cloudeagle there have been serveral posts addressing that point.
The DS has no market share competition.
The Wii does.
Seems to me to be a temporary problem at best.
Especially if, as Scarab himself predicted, the Wii continues to be a breakout, monster hit. Yes, the 360 is doing well... but so is the PSP, in the balance of things.
I think there are a lot more similarities between the two, at least when it comes to the willingness of third-parties to put hardcore games on there.
What I'm thinking is just that the console with the most install base gets the most games period, be they casual or hardcore. Simple as that.
Besides, there was a huge amount of Wii stuff on display at TGS, much more than 360 or PS3 stuff.
Posts
While yes, the Wii has gateway drugs, for me the amount of heroin it has for me to move up to is being reduced while the PS3 and 360 have more crack then you can shake a stick at.
I can only stay on class c drugs for so long. i need my fix of the hard stuff and the wii, while it does have some, has less than the others.
and its nearly been a year since launch, galaxy and brawl are the wiis gears of war, the start of the 2nd gen of games, but where is the wiis graw 2, or vegas, or crackdown, or halo 3. there is not much on the horizon past this fall for wii other than promises of good games to come. whereas the 360 and more so the ps3 have concrete games shown already playable that are triple a huge games for 2008, while ALSO having more triple a stuff this fall.
the wii is good, but not as good as the 360 and ps3 for games, in my opinion of course.
Yes, I know this of course. But when nintendo has wiifit as the headline title for their entire e3 conference, the one game they spend 50% of the time on, you know they are putting a huge focus on it. for example, the previous games that have held this kind of position as the big e3 nintendo game are zeldas, marios and metroids. do you see the change?
I'd point to Metroid, but you've already called that a failure so I guess I lose.
Yes because that's wrong.
I should have worded it better. I mean 'waggle' type controls. While the Wiimote itself can certainly be used in conjunction with the nunchuk for regular games, and as I have said, the controls of MP3 do work well, its the other aspects of the game i felt were not up to the first 2 games standard, i meant to say controls such as Wiisports. simple movements using only the wimmote, not with the nunchuk.
the wiimote on its own has far less functionality for 'traditional' games, and hence why brawl is using classic controls as a basic right? didnt one of the lead designers say it would have full classic controller support and was built around them?
the wiimote + nunchuck is essentially a ps3 controller split in half, with more sensitive motion control. the wiimote on its own requires much different styles of game, as it has no analog stick nor the added waggle of the nunchuck. thats a lot of button functionality missing.
A racer can easily be controlled with nothing but the remote.
Also, as another example, Sonic and the Secret Rings is not a "casual" game by any means, some of those later levels are hard. And it only uses the remote.
I'll go for the obvious arguement here. If the PS3 is so much better then the other two systems then why isn't it doing better?
The Wii has more games available and nearly all of them are doing way better then PS3 games. If you're looking for triple a games then just look at the sales figures.
this whole "nobody saw that the wii could be a success" thing is a total load of bullshit, an absolute MYTH. The wii, since day one, has gotten a TON of press, and given the super retarded success that the DS was, was already being given the same kind of excitement level that's given to apple products upon their announcement. Sony didn't stick motion control in their controller because they saw the wii as a possible failure. And ubisoft didn't dedicate new franchises to the console on launch because it might fail.
Scarab said it best. he didn't say it with doom, he said it with tact, honesty, and rationale. My hype for the wii wore off especially after MP3 was, personally, not nearly the step forward it should have been.
Everyone keeps saying "the games are coming!" but aside from nintendo fair, are they really? What actual BIG franchise announcements have their been? Almost none. Games are being made, absolutely, but the big announcements of heavy development being suddenly shifted just aren't there and you know it.
The wii is fun, but it is not a revolution.
Interesting that you would take a defensive tone on my comments. As I said, im just expressing my opinion. Dont take it as an affront.
I think for this discussion to continue we need a conversation on the definition of 'casual' and 'hardcore' because thats always confusiong things in this thread.
while yes, sonic is definetly not 'casual' in your sense, it is accessible. its controls are about as basic as they come and the gameplay was extremely linear, as was the level design. when i was talking about games being accessible it wasnt as a criticism, games should be accessible, i mean look at that mech game with the 50 button custom controller. complicated does not equal fun.
but depth does. there is no depth to sonic and the secret rings. its fun, for a time. and as you said it does get more difficult (though id hardly say it got hard or very hard) but it is pretty basic. as is excite truck.
this ties directly to my comments of the fun of the wii 'wearing off'.
most of these games are super fun right off the bat. wiisports you can pick up and have more fun than most other games in 30 seconds, even if you never played ANY video games before.
but 12 months down the line, i want to have depth to my games. i have nearly no reason to replay sonic, or excite truck. there is no reward for mastering excite truck. and while its a pretty bad game anyways, the fact that it has really basic controls and shallow gameplay means that it is a trend i see in a lot of wii games.
fun for a while, then lacking lasting appeal. even twilight princess, which is arguably the best wii game, has no lasting appeal. and wiisports becomes not fun to play unless you have friends round after 6 months. tops.
i understand that accessible games should be more commonplace, lord knows gaming has been branded in a bad light for complex systems and controls since like ever, but there is a difference between accessible and basic. and the wii, at the moment, has incredibly basic games. didnt that dragon quest get ripped apart for being a game for babies?
nothing wrong with that, but me, as a twenty something hardcore gamer, i want something with more bite.
1) WiiFit is coming
2) In its first year, the library is somewhat lacking to my tastes
3) ???
4) DOOM!!!!!!!!
He presents his arguments in a very calm, logical way - but it's the same (asinine) argument flame-bait trolls rant all over the web. The basic premise of "WiiFit will make $$! No one EVER TO MAKE REAL GAMES AGAIN REPENT SINNERS!!!!!!" is just pure BS. If it were true, you'd see nothing but shovelware already because the same basic reasoning applies: it's cheaper to make and will always have enough sales to produce profit. Or, given this week, nothing but online multiplayer space marine FPS games. So why is that not the case? Because there's still a market for other games, and thus additional money to be made.
The discovery of a profitable new market segment doesn't suddenly kill off all the others. For example, Toyota notices that US automakers make a killing selling full size trucks and SUVs. Does it kill of the Camry to make its own big truck? Hell no. It doesn't want to desert a proven moneymaker to risk it's solid financial status on breaking into a competitive market currently dominated by other players - it just wants a piece of the pie (preferably as big a piece as it can get, of course). They aren't choosing either/or, because both markets bring in profit - they want BOTH.
I can understand how the game lineup would be unispiring, since that's subjective. But the 'WiiFiit will doom us ALL!!!!' line of thinking just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
I never said WiiFit would cause bad games to come. I said 'different games', ones which do not appeal to me.
There is no doubt WiiSports is a truly excellent game, the gameplay is fun, its accessible and enjoyable for everyone.
Just cause I dont like a game doesnt make it bad (though I am Gaming Moses hehe...)
My point is, if people would read rather than skim read: that WiiFit is, and it will, there is no debate here, going to be a ludicrously huge success that other games will move in a similar direction.
Im not saying this makes them bad, or inferior in ANY way at all. Im just saying, Nintendo doesnt make games for me anymore. Ive got no problem with that and hell, the irony that for the first time in a long time Nintendo is dominating like it did in the NES days is the same time I lose interest in their games.
Galaxy is sure to be excellent. truly excellent. I can appreciate how people will like it. the graphics really push the Wii, the gameplay is well designed and implemented, and with an extra years polish the game is bound to represent the nintendo seal of quality well.
but I have always said Brawl has me more excited than galaxy. be it the controls of galaxy, or the art direction, or the level design, it just doesnt appeal to me as much as I would have expected. Its still on my to buy list and Ill probably enjoy it a lot, but its not got me quivering with hype like, say, resident evil 5. Or MGS4.
The point I was being extremely careful in making is that I am not at all saying Nintendo games will suddenly become bad. they wont. They will still be a pillar of excellence in an industry rife with mediocrity.
My point was that the games will be different, and while people dont like change is a bad excuse, for me it rings true.
Sure, they will still produce some games I like and I have no doubt some of their games will be on my GOTY list. But my argument is when 50% of their games cater to me and 50% dont while 100% of Microsoft games do and so too with Sony.
Im just using simplistic figures here of course, but it still stands, Nintendo, by moving into a new market will produce fewer hardcore games due to this. Doesnt mean their new games are bad, at all, just means they arent 'for me'. Ive got no problem with that, but the Wii excitement is wearing off and I know I am not the only one to feel it.
Nintendo fans seem to take serious offense to someone not liking the Wii, as though they are somehow not seeing the big picture or narrow minded. No. I fully appreciate every aspect of the Wii, I understand the direction it is going, I am fully capable of playing games well on it, the controls dont baffle me, and im not offended by bright colours or imaginitive gameplay. Im just saying that stuff no longer interests me. Maybe Im maturing my gaming tastes and need something a bit heavier. Maybe, and no im not pulling the olol kidtendo thing here, that the accessible gameplay Nintendo is promoting is, as mentioned, a good gateway drug, but Ive been playing games so long I need to move up to the hardcore drugs, and Nintendo has some of it, but Microsoft and Sony have more.
Really, the only console that has their 08 plans clearly fleshed out is Sony. And that's more so because that's the year their hits come out.
If it's not for you, then it's not for you. That's fair. The wii can't do what the 360 can and vice versa. If you're more of the type to lean towards games on the HD platforms then good for you. That's great.
But to argue that the success of wii sports and the future success of wii fit has been and will be a detriment to the quality of games on the wii is downright wrong. To say that the wii only has mini-games and wii sports knockoffs is downright wrong. Personally, I've enjoyed the wii's first year far more than I did the 360's and the comparison you're making at the moment is slightly unfair. The 360 is well into its second year and arguably only just now coming into its own. There will be mini-games on the wii and there will be imitators of those two aforementioned games but their relative impact has been and, I'll argue will be, inconsequential.
I just don't understand how there is any evidence for this.
I agree completely. If its not for me its not for me. If anything, people should feel pity that I am 'missing out' or something. I geniunely want to enjoy the Wii but just dont.
As for 'nothing but wiisports and mini games' Im not sure if it was clear but I was making a direct quote there from 1up. its a pretty infamous quite from one of their e3 shows that does the rounds over at gaf. i know the wii is not just minigames and wiisports, but the top 10 selling list makes for distrubing reading.
also, yes, the wii is in its first year. perhaps i should have added that as a caveat for my entire discussion.
HOWEVER, the same can be said for the 360. this far into the 360 lifespan the fun was indeed starting to wane just like Im feeling now with the wii. then gears of war hit and started another 12 month unbroken chain of excellent high profile well reviewed games.
i was saying galaxy and perhaps brawl will be watershed for nintendo. their first year is up. now they need to prove themselves to me. galaxy and brawl may well be nintendos gears, if you see what i mean. i think i said this. the start of their 2nd gen of games for the console.
whenever i compare consoles, usually i compare them at the same point in their lifespan. 360 had not much for the first 6-7 months, and its launch games were good but nothing special (except perhaps pgr3, which was fun).
however, like ive said before. the 360s headstart by a year wasnt luck, it was a planned strategic business move by microsoft. so comparing the 360 NOW to the Wii and PS3 NOW is completely fair. the reason the 360 has better games NOW than the others isnt some magical co-incidence, its a planned move by Microsoft and its paying off. this also is not an excuse you can make for the lackluster lineup of other consoles compared to the 360. they had an extra year to develop their console, and i hate it when people misjudge microsofts business acumen. they invented this shit guys, they know what theyre doing.
sure, the wii is coming up to its first anniversary. just like the 360, it has to prove itself now.
Really, I can't get more out of your argument than "WiiFit will be a success, so I'll have fewer hardcore games to play on my Wii" - which I provided a neat argument against, as have many others. You can restate your opinion as many times as you like, but it doesn't really matter. There's no back and forth here, just a continuous restating of your opinion that WiiFit will somehow result in fewer choices that meet your tastes.
Again, my fault. Bad wording. I meant fewer hardcore games proportionally. even if they vastly enlarge their development devision, which i dont think they have done, if anything they have sold more companies than they have created, because they have remained pretty much the same size as a development house as opposed to a hardware manufacturer, and produce as many games as they did before, this means while the amount of hardcore games may remain the same (unlikely) compared to how many other companies are making, companies that ONLY make hardcore games, this is less.
I apologise, I feel like the last page has been me explaining parts of my discussion that i worded badly. I think I should maybe put more time into my posts if I spark up a discussion again. I feel like an apologist for my first post at this stage. it was full of badly worded vaguaries and I think it is perfectly fair for people to call me out on it. I strive to be more accurate and comprehendable next time.
If they did, why didn't 3rd-party developers all abandon stuff like Resident Evil, Devil May Cry, and Metal Gear for DDR and Singstar clones in the PS2 era? If it was really true that hugely popular "casual" games were the death knell of "hardcore" games on any platform, then surely we would have seen this happen by now. It's not as if Wii Sports is the first "casual" game or anything.
So I really don't see Wii Fit destroying hardcore gaming on the Wii. Heck, if anything, I would think that it would make third-party developers shy away from releasing a similar title, because Nintendo's got that wrapped up. It's not like we've seen a ton of Wii Sports knockoffs.
And I think saying anything definitive about what the Wii's software lineup is going to be at this point is just a really bad idea. Like I've said a lot - software during a console's first years is in absolutely no way indicative of what the landscape for that console is ultimately going to look like. Anyone remember the Playstation's first year? Because I do.
I'd also like to address this because I think it's interesting:
On the contrary; I see this lack of interest in what's coming to the Wii vs. a great interest in the FPS and similar games coming out on other platforms to be an entirely new phenomenon.
Right now the issue seems to be laziness on the part of developers who didn't realize how successful the wii was going to be. Especially FPS developers like EA and Ubisoft, but there's really no excuse for bad FPS's on the Wii after MP3 demonstrated how they should work.
Now then, you seem to be complaining in your last post (correct my if I'm wrong) that Nintendo won't be focusing exclusively on the hardcore audience like yourself because they have to be making games for this new market that only wants games like WiiFIT and Wii Sports. YOu don't want their attentiont to be split because you think it will result in less games that appeal to you, but is this really how it's working in practice? Is there any particular Nintendo series that you think will not get a sequel on the Wii or will be ignored because of the new causal games? There's already a new Zelda game in development, Smash is coming out soon, as is Galaxy, BWii is coming out with online coop and is looking awesome, Fire Emblem is coming out this fall, and Mario Kart next year. What's missing? Pikmin? I doubt they're abandoning that, as the Wii seems perfect for it, and the King Story game looks very similar anyway.
So, what exactly is Nintendo going to stop making because of the new casual games? As for non-Nintendo, you've got No More Heroes and King story and that new Vanillaware game all recently announced. Games take a long time to make, and many companies didn't start developing until after the Wii was released, so just be patient, stay calm, be happy that any great 3rd party games won't have to directly compete with all those awesome Nintendo games coming out this fall.
2008 will be very telling for the wii. I'm of the opinion that if we're not blown away by third party support at next year's E3 then wii-enthusiasm will fade away into the background by the end of it's third year.
I think you're thinking more or less the same thing (though with probably a shorter time frame). The main difference is that I'm a bit more optimistic than you are.
DS games like Castlevania and Final Fantasy III/IV exist because the DS is a HUGELY dominant platform with a virtual lack of competition (I love the PSP, but it's apples and oranges here), riding on the heels of the most impressive legacy in gaming history (the game boy) and people don't demand state of the art from their handhelds, simply portability. People saying "look at the DS!" to see the future of the Wii is a bit of a misnomer, because the Wii is a new entity right out of the gate, which IS in competition with Microsoft and Sony for the titles I like to play. Furthermore, at least currently, software moves faster on the 360, so developers looking at the bottom line consider things like this when making new titles (hence Capcom's love of the platform).
None of us have crystal balls, but one thing it doesn't take Miss Cleo to see is that the gaming market is going to be far more fragmented than it was last generation as a result of the paths Nintendo and Microsoft/Sony chose to take this goaround. One console will not give you the entire generation.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Saying that there were no comparable first year titles between the two systems.
Mentioning the fact that people including himself will be playing GoW and Halo 3 until 2010 while completely ignoring the fact that people will be playing Brawl until the next sequel comes out, probably sometime in 2013.
There haven't been that many RR/WW/MP clones. Sure, there have been some minigame fests, so it is different from the 360/PS3, which honestly have none of those games, at least none that are any good.
His oh, how many of those games are honestly going to be 90% spiel was classic. Well, lets see. First 13 months after release we have we'll have what, Zelda, RE4, Metroid, Brawl, Galaxy. What did the 360 have in that same time frame? Oblivion, I suppose, Dead Rising, and GoW. Talk about a slow start. There is a ton of quality down the pipe for the Wii, from Nintendo and others. Look to the east my friend. We can barely go a week around here without reporting that some game is coming from Japan exclusively for the Wii. Sure, right now most of them are slightly smaller titles, but its a damn sight more than the 360 is getting.
If you compare XBLA's first year and the VC's first year, I'd think most sane people (or at least sane people who don't pirate) would take the VC. If you compare them both as they are now you could make a strong case for the XBLA.
So right now what exactly does the 360 have over the Wii? Graphics? The same old sports games, FPS, and racing games, with a shiner coat of paint? A bunch of titles that will eventually end up (or already are) on the PC? Achievements? Wow, point collection, what a modern fucking innovation in video games. Charging to play online? Oh man, matchmaking and friend's lists are so expensive.
Well going by the example of the DS, Id say its a fair prediction to make. the 'I blame Wiifit' argument, as I said, is perfectly valid.
If you want me to do some proper research I can have a word with some guys at the office tomorrow, maybe do a full article on it. Heck, Ill post it here first if you need.
I can dig up company expendiature figures, sales figures, employment (I believe Nintendo has not expanded at all since the Wii came out, and by nintendo Im talking purely about the development houses, 2nd party and 1st party developers)
The point is, this isnt some mad prediction. It is a continuation of a trend which started way back with the inception of the DS.
Tell you what, lets just get back to sales figures, Ill write up a full article on it, cite some figures, quote some shit, and Ill get back to ya.
Im not badmouthing you at all. In fact, Im glad people are calling me on my opinions and argument so much. Keeps me honest and stops me falling into the trap of sounding like a fanboy, which I am trying my hardest to avoid.
I agree, I have stated not much more than 'I think this will happen, nyah nyah', having said that, as I said, most of my so called 'opinions' are more than just guesses, they are educated estimations based off of a lot of data, from game review grades to sales and expansion.
Im pretty good as predicting things. Thats not only part of my job but Ill admit it, Im nigh on obsessive when it comes to sales threads. fact is important to me, which is why I made it quite clear that everything I said was an opinion. I hope that Im wrong, I really do. You may find this hard to believe but I try to be as clear as I can on this stuff. The gaming industry is far far more complicated than 95% of the gaming community realise, and Im taking it upon myself to be as analytical and objective as I can.
When I say 'Wiifit will doom us all' (not what I actually said nor meant but regardless:) Im not saying this WILL happen, im saying I believe it will. An important decision and I tried to avoid the 'Im concerned that....' or 'My main worry is....' type of post because they are so often a get out clause for fanboy sniping ('Its my opinion, I can say whatever I want')
There's nothing wrong with Scarab's position, since it's clear that no gaming company can please everyone at all times.
What is wrong is, as JihadJesus pointed out, that WiiFit and the Wii in general is in fact dangerous to the industry as a whole. As if the success of the Wii, with its underpowered graphics and novelty controls and casual appeal is going to destroy hardcore market.
Not when Halo 3 sells 2.5 million copies its first day. Not when BioShock gets perfect reviews. Not when Mass Effect is critically hailed as a possible game of the year.
If WiiFit manages to beat Halo 3's launch day sales, then maybe a radical paradigm shift is in the works. But it seems more likely that it's going to be a slow burn, pulling in significant numbers for a prolonged period of time.
The real issue is that the hardcore audience has acquired a sense of elitism, feeling that gaming is their medium, and that companies should appeal to them first and foremost. That's why games like Madden have been targeted in the past as being a spigot for casual gamers, and why the Wii is targeted now.
The best one can hope for is that cooler heads will prevail.
BRAWL CODE: 3866-7685-8500
I'm pretty sure all previous generations have been about as fragmented, its just as this business of video games swells to titanic proportions it is a lot easier to notice. Nintendo has always done its own thing, for better or worse. It's funny when you see die hard fans like Matt C. over at IGN try to will Nintendo into change. The system must have HD, the system needs next gen graphics, the system needs optical and digital outputs, yadda, yadda. No a good video game system needs none of those things. It needs to have fun games. Sure, one of the tools Nintendo is utilizing is to force developers to think outside the box when it comes to making games for their system. Look really hard at the first two years or so of third party releases on the DS. A ton of crap polishing a few rare diamonds. Too many DS features, or two few, lazily done. Now though, the majority of my most anticipated games are 3rd party endeavors. This I predict will happen for the Wii as well. I'm also very good at prediction, so let's hope I'm right.
Well if you want to make arbitrary 'better/worse' comments then fine. The Wii is different, not superior, nor worse either.
Sure its a bad thing that you pay to play online with the 360, but at least you can play online. And sure the graphics are better, but I dont understand why most people dismiss graphical fidelity as an unimportant feature when talking about the console wars. Graphics do matter and it IS NOT shallow or misinformed to consider them important.
this is what I was talking about, Nintendo defense usually boils down to 'you just dont 'get' wii' or 'haha, how narrow minded are you. expand your mind and embrace wii'.
Like I said, so what if I want to play Halo over Brawl. so do 3 million other people. Or Madden over Galaxy. Does that make you an elitist jerk who regards these people as some sort of naive 'mob' or does it mean you are ignorant of the wider gaming scene. Or both.
As for the again, arbitrary and subjective 'over 90%' comment: look again. in the first 12 months, Wii has two games with a metascore over 90: zelda, metroid. 360 had 2, gears and oblivion. a fair assessment. if you go deeper and compare the 80 range, or the 70s, the 360 is frontloaded with higher reviewed games than the wii. like i said above, ill conclude all of this in a better written properly reaearched article if needsb be.
Madden is for football fans.
Did they only play Madden? Yeah, pretty much. But you actually had to have some semblance of understanding of the game to actually play it.
Before the Wii came along, that was the definition of the casual gamer.
However, now?.
WiiFIT is the definition of marketing to the casual gamer.
Heck, to the casual person.
Litterally anyone with no physical or mental handicap can pick up WiiFIT and play for a couple of hours.
Also, you're saying a lot of things, but you're missing a big, big point myself and others have made.
Nintendogs, a goddamn pet simulator, came out for the DS and sold 15 million copies. Yet the DS is getting "hardcore" games from third parties out its ears.
Now, why can third-party hardcore games survive Nintendogs, but hardcore games won't survive Wii Fit?
I didn't know that about Brawl. I thought it was CC and GC controller only.
This should be interesting.
I'd imagine that the games being around 10 pounds cheaper to buy and a lot cheaper to develop helps plus a 100 million user base.
people get this notion from nintendo's E3 conference and it's emphasis on wii-fit.
But they clearly explained afterwards that, hey, galaxy, brawl and metroid will get enough press regardless. Everybody is excited for them so pressing those would be redundant. So, instead, they focused on something a lot more non conventional. coming out of that conference and thinking "nintendo is no longer for me" is a really presumptuous and foolhardy way to evaluate the presentation as, from the onset, it wasn't geared towards the hardcore audience anyways. they felt they didn't really need to do that, which is in a lot of ways true, and had they not presented wii fit as strongly as they did, i highly doubt it would have received nearly as much buzz.
that said, i still think they should have projected a bit more of the potential 2008 games that we still don't know anything about. but then again, none of the big three did so i guess that's ok.
This is not the case in consolveville. Read my earlier post on last page.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
cloudeagle there have been serveral posts addressing that point.
The DS has no market share competition.
The Wii does.
Seems to me to be a temporary problem at best.
for starters, the price difference makes a HUGE difference.
Especially if, as Scarab himself predicted, the Wii continues to be a breakout, monster hit. Yes, the 360 is doing well... but so is the PSP, in the balance of things.
I think there are a lot more similarities between the two, at least when it comes to the willingness of third-parties to put hardcore games on there.
What I'm thinking is just that the console with the most install base gets the most games period, be they casual or hardcore. Simple as that.
Besides, there was a huge amount of Wii stuff on display at TGS, much more than 360 or PS3 stuff.