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Friend issues. Please help.
Underdog
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Age 22. A bit of a clusterfuck right now. I started working at a bookstore in June. Previous to that, I've never been part of a group of friends. Now I am and it's been pretty cool. However, drama has arisen and I'm unsure of how to proceed.
Most of the employees at the store are pretty close knit. Recently though, one girl, Christine, has been singled out of the group. Christine could easily be categorized as a complainer. Everything bothers her and so she has a lot of whine about. She's also really sensitive about things, often times reading more into reactions than one really should and therefore thinking the worst of all situations. This has apparently been what has caused her to be ejected from the group.
I have some contact on the phone with her and offer a sympathetic ear and what I believe is practical advice. She tells me that she knows she can get on people's nerves but she's also really depressed about being the store pariah. I told her to let things cool down a bit, try to avoid the desire to fix everything right away. Then when she and everyone else had a little time to calm down and think more rationally, she could try to extend some olive branches of peace to her friends. It seemed like she was going to do just that, what with some vacation time coming up over the horizon. At this point, it looked like a "sit and wait" situation.
The past Friday, a large group of the employees went out for some mindless fun and dinner. Christine was, as expected, not invited and therefore not present. I couldn't do anything about that, it wasn't my event. I went along, had fun, had food, yay. We all congregate at one person's house and start a group conversation on the front steps. Everything was cool until Christine's name was brought up and then it became tremendously uncomfortable for me. What followed was a massive pile on as nearly everyone aired their ill feelings about Christine. One guy, Max, said he didn't want anything to do with her because she had been talking shit behind his back. And then he proceeded to lead the charge in talking shit about her.
I kept quiet. I had a strong desire to speak up but being new to the store, I knew I didn't know the whole story and that the lack of information would likely be my downfall. It was really hard to listen to. They talked about how self-centred she was, joked about her whether she'd commit suicide or not, bitched about her constant art shows that she was inviting everyone to (why they always showed up, I have no idea) and generally ripped into her like pack of dogs. What really shocked me was listening to people who had been Christine's "friends", people that Christine told me she really wanted to patched things up with, unapologetically tear into her. One friend even went as far as to use private information that Christine had confided in her as a way of making the group laugh. And boy did they laugh.
Now I'm stuck. On one hand, I feel like telling Christine that no one in the group likes her and that she should abandon any efforts to try to re-connect with them (because from what I've seen, they'll likely just smile, lead her on and continue to secretly dislike her without ever telling her the truth). On the other hand, I don't believe that most of the group knows that Christine and I have semi-regular contact and probably said the things they did with the belief that it would never be revealed to her. If I do tell Christine, I'm worried I too will be ostracized from the group, who, beyond this time, are generally very fun to be around. I don't want to lose this.
I'm trying really hard to tread the line between the two groups right now. Right now, I'm thinking that something along the lines of "Look, I can't name specifics or give you details but the plan to try to re-connect with your friends at work? Probably not going to work." I'd be really uncomfortable just letting her walk into that trap without at least giving her a bit of a heads up but I don't want to cross over into "informant" territory. What the fuck do I do?
tldr: A girl wants to make nice with mutual friends. I've learned that said friends want nothing to do with her and even went as far as ridiculing her with private, confided knowledge. I get the feeling none of the friends will be direct with her and will just lead her on with excuses and shit. Warn girl and risk betraying friends' trust or not warn girl and watch as she falls into a pit of shit?
I need some perspective please.
Most of the employees at the store are pretty close knit. Recently though, one girl, Christine, has been singled out of the group. Christine could easily be categorized as a complainer. Everything bothers her and so she has a lot of whine about. She's also really sensitive about things, often times reading more into reactions than one really should and therefore thinking the worst of all situations. This has apparently been what has caused her to be ejected from the group.
I have some contact on the phone with her and offer a sympathetic ear and what I believe is practical advice. She tells me that she knows she can get on people's nerves but she's also really depressed about being the store pariah. I told her to let things cool down a bit, try to avoid the desire to fix everything right away. Then when she and everyone else had a little time to calm down and think more rationally, she could try to extend some olive branches of peace to her friends. It seemed like she was going to do just that, what with some vacation time coming up over the horizon. At this point, it looked like a "sit and wait" situation.
The past Friday, a large group of the employees went out for some mindless fun and dinner. Christine was, as expected, not invited and therefore not present. I couldn't do anything about that, it wasn't my event. I went along, had fun, had food, yay. We all congregate at one person's house and start a group conversation on the front steps. Everything was cool until Christine's name was brought up and then it became tremendously uncomfortable for me. What followed was a massive pile on as nearly everyone aired their ill feelings about Christine. One guy, Max, said he didn't want anything to do with her because she had been talking shit behind his back. And then he proceeded to lead the charge in talking shit about her.
I kept quiet. I had a strong desire to speak up but being new to the store, I knew I didn't know the whole story and that the lack of information would likely be my downfall. It was really hard to listen to. They talked about how self-centred she was, joked about her whether she'd commit suicide or not, bitched about her constant art shows that she was inviting everyone to (why they always showed up, I have no idea) and generally ripped into her like pack of dogs. What really shocked me was listening to people who had been Christine's "friends", people that Christine told me she really wanted to patched things up with, unapologetically tear into her. One friend even went as far as to use private information that Christine had confided in her as a way of making the group laugh. And boy did they laugh.
Now I'm stuck. On one hand, I feel like telling Christine that no one in the group likes her and that she should abandon any efforts to try to re-connect with them (because from what I've seen, they'll likely just smile, lead her on and continue to secretly dislike her without ever telling her the truth). On the other hand, I don't believe that most of the group knows that Christine and I have semi-regular contact and probably said the things they did with the belief that it would never be revealed to her. If I do tell Christine, I'm worried I too will be ostracized from the group, who, beyond this time, are generally very fun to be around. I don't want to lose this.
I'm trying really hard to tread the line between the two groups right now. Right now, I'm thinking that something along the lines of "Look, I can't name specifics or give you details but the plan to try to re-connect with your friends at work? Probably not going to work." I'd be really uncomfortable just letting her walk into that trap without at least giving her a bit of a heads up but I don't want to cross over into "informant" territory. What the fuck do I do?
tldr: A girl wants to make nice with mutual friends. I've learned that said friends want nothing to do with her and even went as far as ridiculing her with private, confided knowledge. I get the feeling none of the friends will be direct with her and will just lead her on with excuses and shit. Warn girl and risk betraying friends' trust or not warn girl and watch as she falls into a pit of shit?
I need some perspective please.
Underdog on
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In almost every work setting I've encountered there is at least one common: the other employee that no one likes. This tends to bring the other employees together in a way. And, of course, this makes life miserable for that individual. Also, more often than not, the insults and flagrant statements of wanting nothing to do with that particular employee are complete bullshit and trumped up; it's like a playground game where everyone tries to outdo the person before them, which is only compounded with the addition of alcohol and the stimulant of social interaction.
As far as remedying the situation:
Don't be afraid to be nice to her in front of the others; there's usually at least one other person who feels that the black sheep is being mistreated and, like you, doesn't want to become the new black sheep and, ergo, does not speak up. And, on the flipside, don't be afraid to tell her when she's doing the things that get her ostracized from the pack.
And, shit man, these things are so unpredictable, especially when we're talking about several different personalities which no one on these forums is familiar with. Take this as an opportunity to gauge atmospheres and personalities and figure out what is best.
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I think that I will try not to be afraid to be friends with her at work, regardless of how it makes me look to everyone else. But what do I do about what I heard? Do I warn her about how the people she wants to make nice with view her and betray the group or do I sit and do nothing and just let her walk into a trap? I feel like either way I'm going to betray someone's trust.
It's hard not to just take sides on this one, and things just get extra shitty once there are, indeed, sides.
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Don't hide that you talk to/spend time with this girl, bring it up in a casual way. If they are criticizing her just say she's alright, and you like hanging out with her too now and again. I'm sure they'd tone it down around you after that, and if it went further, to you being alienated, are people like that really worth your time?
Stay outside the drama as best you can, let it be known that you are there because you enjoy spending time with the group, or with Christine, and that is all that's important.
The biggest mistake is trying to make big changes, and be the mediator, nobody likes that guy. You can try to direct the situation, but be subtle, and don't think you can fix anything. It'll probably get weird at some point, so keep positive, and hope that that is enough. Emotions are contagious and whatnot.
Let's hope you can gather something from that little story, work with it, see how acting like A might work with this girl.
Not well I think. I'm afraid she'd get angry and work to try to get in the last word. Something like "Justin told me you were talking shit about me and you can all go to hell." Or take it really badly and start weeping and shit and getting even more depressed than she already is (she's told me that she's been pretty close to going back on anti-depressants since she started getting left out at work).
This feels cowardly.
That's because it is.
When they start talking shit about her in front her tell them you aren't down with it. Say that you think even though she has a few problems she's a cool chick overall.
You should also point out that talking about people behind their back if they don't do it to their face is not cool. I mean I don't think anyone minds when someone comments that they don't like X and leave it that but when it upgrades into a full scale bitch fest it's definatly un-cool.
Also think about what you want to do.
You want to ostresize your friend so you can hangout in the cool group.
Does it feel like you are still in highschool? Because that's what it looks like here.
Satans..... hints.....
But they might not feel that way. They might just be trying to fit in, to echo what everyone else is saying. Or maybe there's something minor about her that they do dislike, and they play it up for sympathy and laughs, but when they're interacting with her in a more private setting, they get along with her fine. I think everyone has had a friend they're ashamed of for some reason, and it takes a lot of willpower to really stand up and claim them as such when everyone around you is slagging them. If you go to your friend and tell her "Hey, Soandso said this about you," that might completely ruin any chance of her working things out with Soandso... even if Soandso actually enjoyed her company.
Speak up for your friend, in moderation. If you can, use humour and counter-insult to deflect things away from her, just so it doesn't end up being a total dogpile: if too many people start piling on, try something like "Yeah, that was kind of dumb, but that wasn't half as bad as the time you did XYZ." Keep it light, make them laugh at each other instead of at her. And leave her alone to sort out her own relationships with the other coworkers. Telling her she's hated won't do her any favours, and it might not even be true, so don't risk it.
Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck. I was THIS close to having myself convinced. But you're right. I should have stood up for her. I should have told them at the time that what they were doing was not cool and that I was not going to be a part of it and then I should have either went back into the house or just have gone home altogether. And now I'd be a pretty big bitch to not even mention that they slagged her so badly right? How am I going to word this then? Just say "Yeah I can't name people or give you specifics but they were trashing you pretty badly."?
Satans..... hints.....
Not everyone is ever going to get on, and if there's a black sheep, then the bitching process is a bonding experience for the others. They're not inherently bad people, and you aren't a bad person for not speaking up, because it sounds like she burnt her own bridges.
If you don't like it, don't stay with them, but I think you're reading way too much into it. If she apologises properly, and the others accept it, you'll probably find the whole mood change.
UGH. This is so fucking hard. Everything was so much easier when I was a lonely loser.
All right, I think I've come to a solution. I'm not going to tell her. I'm going to give the idiots the benefit of the doubt and assume most of the piling up was because it looked like the right thing to do at the time. As it stands, I don't really see how knowing she was slagged helps Christine. Her so called "friends", if they truly feel the way they feel, won't be able to hide their dislike for her for too long and she should get the point pretty quickly (I hope). And if some of them were just following mob mentality, I guess it's only fair (even if they were not fair) to not destroy any chance of Christine mending the friendships with them. This is no longer about me not being ashamed by what is staring at me in the mirror, I already wasted that opportunity, now is the time to think about Christine.
Talk about your grey areas.
No it wasn't easier, you just need to learn this stuff. You'll work it out.
Pretty much. It's when people bitch strongly when they are pretending to be nice (ie. being two-faced) that you have to step in. Two-facedness is cheap. Bitching about someone who caused herself to be ejected from the group is perfectly normal.
You really have to not think of this stuff as being something that needs a White Knight, which is where you are getting this misplaced "cowardly" vibe. People fall into and out of friendships, and it's always changing. You have to shrug it off and just get on with it. Treat your friends like friends, and hope you get the same in return. It's all you can do; it's too messy going in to other people's relationships.
Like I said, the only thing I've heard where there is a serious problem was bringing up stuff told in confidence.
I think you're putting too much pressure on yourself. You don't necessarily have to solve this woman's problem. I work in an office with a lot of women who like to gossip and talk behind each others' back. I don't join, but I don't exactly stop them because they're going to do it anyway in another office. I work with a particular co-worker who bitches about everything and everyone under the sun. What bugs me is when people start talking about co-workers I don't have any problems with. You can't really do anything about it, and it sounds like this person has brought a lot of this on herself. She might be a nice person, but you're not her big brother or anything. Next time something like this comes up you could just say, "Hey, guys, let's not talk about someone behind their back". Or you could always say, "She's never done anything to me, so I don't have a problem with her".
Potentially sexist comment: I've only ever seen women do this to each other. It's fantastically bizarre, they'll be chatting happily and then one will leave and the other one will lean over and go "What a fucking bitch, I hate her so much" and you get the impression the one that left does the exact same thing when she gets back to her desk.
I think bitching is some sort of social currency between girls. As far as I can tell it means almost nothing about the person who is getting the heat, but is used to illustrate the close bond between the bitchers.
Now I wasn't there, and maybe these people said some really horrible, unforgivable shit. But they're your friends, do think they're horrible people? Do think they really want someone they used to be friends with to commit suicide? Or do you think they said some stupid things they didn't really mean to get a laugh and fit in?
Here's the thing about groups of friends (at least in my experience), they bitch. They bitch about their jobs, about school, and occasionally they bitch about each other. You don't have to like it, you certainly don't have to join in, but you better get used to it.
Agreed. Office politics is a lot like high school. When you dated a girl, you were in her circle of friends, and if you ever dumped her, they all knew every bad thing about you and could tell a hundred other people. I work with about 15 females and one other male who's rarely around. It's really weird, because you've got to be really assertive otherwise they'll all walk over you, but know when to just shut up and let them think they're right.
It makes it hard too since i have a somewhat inside role, and im privy to information that others are not, and shouldnt be. So during cigarette breaks sometimes situations exactly like yours will come up, and ill be standing there with a group of people who happen to be complaining about the annoying person de jour, who maybe i like or dislike, but becuase it would be unprofessional to let my personal opinion of a co-worker out like that, i usually end up saying "Yeah, i dont know, they seem ok to me" or "I dont seem to have a problem getting along with them". Honestly this is the best way to deal with said situations, whether you like or dislike the person.
The absolutely worst way to deal with this, in my personal opinion, and from experience, is to bring this all out into the open, if you plan on working there or dealing with any of these people for any length of time. If you tell Christine that everyone else from work fucking hates her, youll possibly:
1) Run the risk that she'll have a meltdown, freak out, yell, get fired, and finger you as the person who told her in the process. This will make the rest of your time there difficult, especially if you enjoy hanging out with these people. Youll forever be known as "The guy who you cant say shit around".
2) Make hers and your time at work really uncomfortable. You know everyone hates her, she knows everyone hates her, and its going to grind into both of you every time someone says something like "Oh by the way, you can come with us to lunch if you want" because youll know youre the reason she says no.
Bottom line is, nothing good comes from telling her. Yes youll have done the "right thing" (arguably), and told her that her friends are dicks, but the only thing youll really be doing is stirring up drama, which no one likes. The thing half of these replies seem to forget is that this is not a social club, this is not a bunch of friends sitting around the highschool cafeteria, and this is not fucking melrose place or some shit. This is work, and yeah while you may feel like you owe it to one of your friends to tell them all the bad shit that people say about them, unless youre both prepared to quit your jobs and you feel like you could have a long term relationship with this girl, its not worth telling her.
Bottom line is, dont say anything to her, dont join in the bitching if you dont agree with it, and dont stir up shit unnecessarily at work.
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Let her find out that they suck for herself. Maybe they don't suck and the OP has got it all distorted (which it seems to me).
Hell the OP deserves better, I'd say the both of them leave the pack to themselves and move on with their adult lives free of he said she said bullshit.
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There's nothing wrong with piping in with a "yeah, she's got some issues, but she's pretty cool". And if you like her, definitely hang out with her at work. But don't have any illusions: this kind of thing is totally normal, there's nothing you should be doing about it, and it doesn't make these people assholes (although, as already stated, the in-confidence thing is especially bad taste).