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What do you believe but cannot prove?

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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Actually there's a concept known as a Boltzmann brain, the idea of which is that over a long enough time period in a field of matter you'd eventually get sentient observers spontaneously appearing.

    electricitylikesme on
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    evilbobevilbob RADELAIDERegistered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I believe that over the past few hours I've become not only drunk, but extremely jealous of my friend who is screwing a chick who I've had a crush on for two months.

    evilbob on
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    Chaos TheoryChaos Theory Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I cannot prove that minds are worthy of more respect than other instances of matter.

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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I cannot prove that minds are worthy of more respect than other instances of matter.

    Well, I certainly hope you believe it. I suspect your grounds of proof are a little too rigorous right now.

    I believe that the workings of the world are distant and cold. I feel less an agent than I do a pawn. I can't prove my powerlessness, or weakness, but I feel it nonetheless and am convinced.

    MrMister on
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    KazhiimKazhiim __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    MrMister wrote: »
    I feel less an agent than I do a pawn.

    But if you're in a game of all-pawns, does it matter?

    Kazhiim on
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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Kazhiim wrote: »
    MrMister wrote: »
    I feel less an agent than I do a pawn.

    But if you're in a game of all-pawns, does it matter?

    Well, that depends.

    MrMister on
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    KazhiimKazhiim __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    I'm just saying.


    You're only in a position of inferiority if there is something superior to you.

    Kazhiim on
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    noobertnoobert Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I believe that although we do have free will, it only applies to the minor, less important things in our lives. Everything major and significant that happens to us, was always going to happen no matter the choices we make in day to day life.

    noobert on
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    Chaos TheoryChaos Theory Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    MrMister wrote: »
    I cannot prove that minds are worthy of more respect than other instances of matter.

    Well, I certainly hope you believe it. I suspect your grounds of proof are a little too rigorous right now.

    Of course I believe it (you know, the point of the thread). And there are some non-rigorous proofs, such as assuming that my mind is worthy and that other minds are like mine, therefore all are worthy... But regardless, I find that requiring proof of things tends toward being humane in most cases. For example, I cannot prove (and do not believe) that some minds are worthy of more respect than others.

    Chaos Theory on
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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I cannot prove (and do not believe) that some minds are worthy of more respect than others.


    Now we're getting into the area where super-precise terminology is indispensable.

    MrMister on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    MrMister wrote: »
    I cannot prove (and do not believe) that some minds are worthy of more respect than others.


    Now we're getting into the area where super-precise terminology is indispensable.

    The individual words you use are mundane--and for that matter, the sentence itself is as well--but I need to use that phrase all the time, I think.

    Loren Michael on
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    ShamusShamus Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I believe in ghosts.

    Thus, Shamus's First Rule of Life: Don't fuck with the undead.

    Shamus on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2007
    I believe that if you're complaining you can't afford a house in Sydney due to rent and that it costs you $2000 each time you have to move then you're probably not fiscally creative enough to afford a house period, and it's not the rent that's killing you.

    Also that you're contributing to the stereotype of Ba Arts students everywhere.

    <3

    the comments pages at smh.com.au are full of fucking stupid.

    The Cat on
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    Red LegRed Leg Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I honestly believe that I am a very lucky person. Just certain little things ALWAYS seem to happen throughout the day. Like say, a huge report is due at work. I completely forget about it, and for some reason, the meeting is called off. Or I just happen to find a 20 someone left in the ATM. Both these things just happened this week.

    I've won 2 vacations (real vacations, not the sit down and talk to the timeshare people), small wins in the lottery twice (couple hundred, but I was just playing the little quick scratch ones), won a free laptop, and a bunch of other cool things have happened that just make me think that I might be lucky.

    A lot of people who know me say I'm lucky, charmed, blessed, whatever. But I truly believe there is some intangible SOMETHING that just dictates how fortunate someone is.

    Red Leg on
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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I believe that focusing on super precise terminology hampers meaningful discussion.

    DodgeBlan on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2007
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    I believe that focusing on super precise terminology hampers meaningful discussion.
    I believe its usually an attempt to derail discussion away from the real issues, and that those who do it have a vested interest in halting that discussion in favour of semantic quibbles. Its just too hard to peg as actual trolling most of the time.

    The Cat on
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    The Black HunterThe Black Hunter The key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple, unimpeachable reason to existRegistered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I beleive there is a single God that has the ability to manipulate the planets patterns.

    The Black Hunter on
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    MerovingiMerovingi regular
    edited September 2007
    I can't personally prove it but I believe that the United States government was behind 9/11 to rally people and scare them into allowing Bush's Administration to enforce significant changes to the way our government works. I believe, strongly, that there will be another "terrorist" attack on the U.S. and that we will be at war with Iran before Bush's term is up in 2008. I believe that our country is turning into a police state and that this country is already doomed to fall from what it once was. The government is too damn powerful and corrupt and there's no way for the people to change it anymore. We already know what it'll look like if you attempt to revolt- just look at how we put down "insurgency" in Iraq.

    I believe we are fucked!

    But I can't prove it.

    Merovingi on
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    GroovyMr1337GroovyMr1337 Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Merovingi wrote: »
    I can't personally prove it, but I believe that the United States government was behind 9/11 to rally people and scare them into allowing Bush's Administration to enforce significant changes to the way our government works. I believe, strongly, that there will be another "terrorist" attack on the U.S. and that we will be at war with Iran before Bush's term is up in 2008. I believe that our country is turning into a police state and that this country is already doomed to fall from what it once was. The government is too damn powerful and corrupt and there's no way for the people to change it anymore. We already know what it'll look like if you attempt to revolt- just look at how we put down "insurgency" in Iraq.

    I believe we are fucked!

    But I can't prove it.

    GroovyMr1337 on
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    SuaveSuave __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    That's heavy. I believe that there is a war on our minds right now and it is both happening internally and externally and that if one side wins, we will somehow "get it" and evolve together, and if we lose, we could be eternally imprisoned like something out of the book 1984 or the movie The Matrix.

    Suave on
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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    I believe that the perception that all politicians are corrupt comes from people who are deeply deeply ignorant of politics.

    Shinto on
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    MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    I believe that focusing on super precise terminology hampers meaningful discussion.
    I believe its usually an attempt to derail discussion away from the real issues, and that those who do it have a vested interest in halting that discussion in favour of semantic quibbles. Its just too hard to peg as actual trolling most of the time.

    Well, that depends on what you mean by trolling.

    But in all seriousness, what do I believe that I cannot prove? I believe that life exists around other stars.

    MikeMan on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    I believe that the perception that all politicians are corrupt comes from people who are deeply deeply ignorant of politics.

    I believe it comes from lack of specificity, resulting in a poorly phrased assertion.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    I'll throw another vote into the "life elsewhere in the universe" belief. I'm nowhere near 100% sure of that belief, but I think it's true.

    I believe that people who believe in ghosts do so because of dissatisfaction with reality and desire for something unexplainable and mystical.
    Shinto wrote: »
    I believe that the perception that all politicians are corrupt comes from people who are deeply deeply ignorant of politics.
    I agree.

    Kaputa on
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    RedShellRedShell Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Merovingi wrote: »
    I can't personally prove it but I believe that the United States government was behind 9/11 to rally people and scare them into allowing Bush's Administration to enforce significant changes to the way our government works. I believe, strongly, that there will be another "terrorist" attack on the U.S. and that we will be at war with Iran before Bush's term is up in 2008. I believe that our country is turning into a police state and that this country is already doomed to fall from what it once was. The government is too damn powerful and corrupt and there's no way for the people to change it anymore. We already know what it'll look like if you attempt to revolt- just look at how we put down "insurgency" in Iraq.

    I believe we are fucked!

    But I can't prove it.

    The sad thing is (and I don't want to be disagreeing with people's beliefs!) that there are multiple factions, some Islamic Fundamentalist and others American hawk, who are hoping to see more military conflicts in the Middle East.

    It's weird to think that, logically, only one side can profit from such a course. But multiple sides believe (irrationally, in at least one case) that they'd be the ones to gain more than they lose. It's like watching a poker hand unfold in which every side is totally overestimating the strength of their hand. You know someone's going to learn a very expensive lesson.

    RedShell on
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    HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    I believe that the perception that all politicians are corrupt comes from people who are deeply deeply ignorant of politics.
    I believe a lot of politicians are corrupt. Corrupt in a peas and carrots unethical way, but not in an illegal starting idiotic wars just to get oil kind of way (or conspiracy bullshit).

    Hoz on
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    MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited September 2007
    RedShell wrote: »
    The sad thing is (and I don't want to be disagreeing with people's beliefs!

    what the fuck?

    MikeMan on
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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited September 2007
    Beliefs are sacred. People are not responsible for their beliefs. People's beliefs deserve automatic respect.

    I believe all of that is bullshit.

    redx on
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    redx wrote: »
    Beliefs are sacred. People are not responsible for their beliefs. People's beliefs deserve automatic respect.

    I believe all of that is bullshit.
    I believe that with regard to people's opinions as well.

    electricitylikesme on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    redx wrote: »
    Beliefs are sacred. People are not responsible for their beliefs. People's beliefs deserve automatic respect.

    I believe all of that is bullshit.
    I believe that with regard to people's opinions as well.

    Loren Michael on
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    RohanRohan Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I believe that there is some infinite force in the universe, whether it's God or not. But our solar system is a very odd place indeed... Earth's orbit around our sun is not just a good spot for water to flow and life to start, but it's in the perfect spot. Venus is closer to the sun, and too hot to support life. Mars is further than we are and is too cold. Jupiter and Saturn protect us from the asteroids that come hurtling into the system through their massive gravity. And what's more, all of the gas giants in our system, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune, appear to be really, really rare celestial bodies. The latest Focus says that since 1995, hundreds of extra-solar "super Jupiter" planets have been found, but none of them have been as small as the gas giants in our solar system. They are all hundreds of times bigger, and you can't put that down to our instruments not being sensitive enough yet because we are now detecting Earth-sized rocky planets. Our sun also appears to be a rare breed of star. It all seems very like intelligent design to me.

    Also, from GroundReport.com -

    "Now I present to you Billy Connolly’s atomic theory: if an atom is a mini solar system and everything that has a molecular structure is basically made up of atoms, then how do we know if our solar system is as big as we think it is? Atoms are the building blocks of all things. For example, if you take two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom you get a water molecule; in fact, 66% of the human body is made up of these water molecules. Therefore if our solar system is constructed like an atom, couldn’t that mean we are part of a table leg or any other organism?"

    Rohan on
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    poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I believe what redz and ELO believe about beliefs.

    I also believe everyone is a perv - has a kink. There's no such thing as vanilla tastes - just denial.

    I believe anger comes out of fear. I believe guilt is a pointless emotion.

    I believe guns and other weapons shouldn't be widely available.

    I believe the people in power in the world are fucking evil and that most people won't admit to themselves because it's terrifying.

    I believe that utopia is impossible due to the wide range of human personalities, but that the world of the future will be radically different from today.

    poshniallo on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2007
    Rohan wrote: »
    I believe that there is some infinite force in the universe, whether it's God or not. But our solar system is a very odd place indeed... Earth's orbit around our sun is not just a good spot for water to flow and life to start, but it's in the perfect spot. Venus is closer to the sun, and too hot to support life. Mars is further than we are and is too cold. Jupiter and Saturn protect us from the asteroids that come hurtling into the system through their massive gravity. And what's more, all of the gas giants in our system, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune, appear to be really, really rare celestial bodies. The latest Focus says that since 1995, hundreds of extra-solar "super Jupiter" planets have been found, but none of them have been as small as the gas giants in our solar system. They are all hundreds of times bigger, and you can't put that down to our instruments not being sensitive enough yet because we are now detecting Earth-sized rocky planets. Our sun also appears to be a rare breed of star. It all seems very like intelligent design to me.

    Did you just try to prove something you admittedly can't prove, and by using the old "well, it's pretty unlikely, so it's impossible that it could have occurred randomly in an infinitely variable universe" shtick combined with the classic "there couldn't concievably be life that has different environmental requirements from ours" assumption?

    ViolentChemistry on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2007
    Atoms don't actually look like teeny solar systems, but they don't teach how they actually work as high school level for some stupid reason. Its very annoying.

    The Cat on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Atoms don't actually look like teeny solar systems, but they don't teach how they actually work as high school level for some stupid reason. Its very annoying.

    But what if I believe they look like teeny solar systems? What if I believe it really hard?

    ViolentChemistry on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Atoms don't actually look like teeny solar systems, but they don't teach how they actually work as high school level for some stupid reason. Its very annoying.

    But what if I believe they look like teeny solar systems? What if I believe it really hard?

    With luck, your head will explode and save us some valuable oxygen?

    The Cat on
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    HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    That the Goedel sentence is true.
    As is Rosser's version of the Goedel sentence.

    (For those not familiar with the foundations of mathematics literature: the Goedel sentence is an arithmetic sentence that basically states "I'm not provable in arithmetic.")

    Hedgethorn on
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    SanderJKSanderJK Crocodylus Pontifex Sinterklasicus Madrid, 3000 ADRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Atoms don't actually look like teeny solar systems, but they don't teach how they actually work as high school level for some stupid reason. Its very annoying.

    The solar system model (Bohr model) is the easiest way into teaching quantum mechanical concepts such as quantized orbitals. Now in reality the orbitals of course look nothing like solar systems, but it's the way the concept of orbitals was first thought off in 1900, and it's a relatively logical thing to think.

    The fact that high schools never go further and explain "well, that's how it was conceptualized, but upon further inspection, the orbitals look more like (s, p, d, sp3, sp2 etcet), and it's all a matter of statistics where you find an electron at a given point, they do not really have a classical position/momentum at this level of physics" is something i'm not a real fan off, but it's somewhat understandable, given that quantum mechanics is something that's
    a) really counterintuitive
    b) is almost impossible to understand without considerable math knowledge
    c) Has no consistent physical interpretation, except the Copenhagen (which is basicly "It works, it works perfectly, all the time, so do the math, be happy with the results and stop thinking about what you are doing or you will get headaches), which makes a hard sell.

    All that being said, i think it would be great to expose kids to QM and Relativistic physics because it has staggering consequences, they're extremely valid, and it really makes you think about the world around you.

    SanderJK on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    That Coca Cola is better than Pepsi.

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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    SanderJK wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Atoms don't actually look like teeny solar systems, but they don't teach how they actually work as high school level for some stupid reason. Its very annoying.

    The solar system model (Bohr model) is the easiest way into teaching quantum mechanical concepts such as quantized orbitals. Now in reality the orbitals of course look nothing like solar systems, but it's the way the concept of orbitals was first thought off in 1900, and it's a relatively logical thing to think.

    The fact that high schools never go further and explain "well, that's how it was conceptualized, but upon further inspection, the orbitals look more like (s, p, d, sp3, sp2 etcet), and it's all a matter of statistics where you find an electron at a given point, they do not really have a classical position/momentum at this level of physics" is something i'm not a real fan off, but it's somewhat understandable, given that quantum mechanics is something that's
    a) really counterintuitive
    b) is almost impossible to understand without considerable math knowledge
    c) Has no consistent physical interpretation, except the Copenhagen (which is basicly "It works, it works perfectly, all the time, so do the math, be happy with the results and stop thinking about what you are doing or you will get headaches), which makes a hard sell.

    All that being said, i think it would be great to expose kids to QM and Relativistic physics because it has staggering consequences, they're extremely valid, and it really makes you think about the world around you.

    Especially in Science, but also in English, it is commonplace to teach simplistic, often untrue things as "building blocks" for future lessons, and by "future lessons" I mean years in the future.

    It's very irritating educational methodology.

    Drez on
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