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What do you believe but cannot prove?

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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2007
    SanderJK wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Atoms don't actually look like teeny solar systems, but they don't teach how they actually work as high school level for some stupid reason. Its very annoying.

    The solar system model (Bohr model) is the easiest way into teaching quantum mechanical concepts such as quantized orbitals. Now in reality the orbitals of course look nothing like solar systems, but it's the way the concept of orbitals was first thought off in 1900, and it's a relatively logical thing to think.

    The fact that high schools never go further and explain "well, that's how it was conceptualized, but upon further inspection, the orbitals look more like (s, p, d, sp3, sp2 etcet), and it's all a matter of statistics where you find an electron at a given point, they do not really have a classical position/momentum at this level of physics" is something i'm not a real fan off, but it's somewhat understandable, given that quantum mechanics is something that's
    a) really counterintuitive
    b) is almost impossible to understand without considerable math knowledge
    c) Has no consistent physical interpretation, except the Copenhagen (which is basicly "It works, it works perfectly, all the time, so do the math, be happy with the results and stop thinking about what you are doing or you will get headaches), which makes a hard sell.

    All that being said, i think it would be great to expose kids to QM and Relativistic physics because it has staggering consequences, they're extremely valid, and it really makes you think about the world around you.

    I disagree, particularly about the level of maths required to teach about electrons as probability clouds. They taught us that stuff in first year college chem with no more math than the mid-level HS maths course for our state, and that was straight out of a standard text (Kotz and Treichel). We learned enough to change our conceptualisation of matter without having to become physicists. I think the Bohr model becomes deliberately misleading past grade 9 or 10, even though its useful for teaching basic bonding and such.

    The Cat on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    "Deliberately misleading" sums up a good portion of pre-college education.

    Drez on
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    RohanRohan Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Rohan wrote: »
    I believe that there is some infinite force in the universe, whether it's God or not. But our solar system is a very odd place indeed... Earth's orbit around our sun is not just a good spot for water to flow and life to start, but it's in the perfect spot. Venus is closer to the sun, and too hot to support life. Mars is further than we are and is too cold. Jupiter and Saturn protect us from the asteroids that come hurtling into the system through their massive gravity. And what's more, all of the gas giants in our system, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune, appear to be really, really rare celestial bodies. The latest Focus says that since 1995, hundreds of extra-solar "super Jupiter" planets have been found, but none of them have been as small as the gas giants in our solar system. They are all hundreds of times bigger, and you can't put that down to our instruments not being sensitive enough yet because we are now detecting Earth-sized rocky planets. Our sun also appears to be a rare breed of star. It all seems very like intelligent design to me.

    Did you just try to prove something you admittedly can't prove, and by using the old "well, it's pretty unlikely, so it's impossible that it could have occurred randomly in an infinitely variable universe" shtick combined with the classic "there couldn't concievably be life that has different environmental requirements from ours" assumption?

    Heh, no. I'm not trying to prove it, and I don't really believe it, either... it just seems like a lot of pretty big coincidences lumped together. Really, really big coincidences. And I don't mean that other forms of life couldn't form, either, I'm saying that life as we know it on Earth came into being because of all these suspiciously large coincidences... if coincidences they are. Heh, in fact, I don't believe anything I just said, it's just something I've noticed.

    Though I do believe in God in one form or another. To me, God is the infinity that Man will never, and could never, understand. There, something I believe but cannot prove :P

    Rohan on
    ...and I thought of how all those people died, and what a good death that is. That nobody can blame you for it, because everyone else died along with you, and it is the fault of none, save those who did the killing.

    Nothing's forgotten, nothing is ever forgotten
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    SepahSepah Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I believe that reality is truly infinite, and that everything that can happen without violating a fundamental physical principal, has happened, will happen, or is happening

    I believe that for every person, there is another person who is perfectly and completely compatible, in every way, in such a way that with each other they are each made greater than they were. I believe that these two people will never meet.

    I believe that the theory of evolution is right, as its basic idea is that whatever works the best, stays around. This makes sense.

    I believe I will go to bed. G'night. But I can't prove it...

    Sepah on
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    YumcakeYumcake Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I believe that I'm a born loser trying to fake winning amongst a community of winners.

    Competition is good because you get rewarded for being better than others. But the implication there is that somebody else is worse than others and I think I may be that guy. My life has been a very slow downward slope in the rankings and I'm afraid I won't be able to keep up the facade of competence. My inferiority will be discovered one day the way things are going. I'd like to think it's just low self-esteem and that everybody else feels the same way in private, but I think in my case it's just true.

    Sort of like Gattica but without the optimism.

    It feels like I have only partially grown into an adult(23), but I'm really still just a punk kid trying to be something he's not.

    Yumcake on
    Cake is yum, is yum cake? I think, therefore I am. I am... Yumcake.

    kelbear1.png
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    SanderJK wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Atoms don't actually look like teeny solar systems, but they don't teach how they actually work as high school level for some stupid reason. Its very annoying.

    The solar system model (Bohr model) is the easiest way into teaching quantum mechanical concepts such as quantized orbitals. Now in reality the orbitals of course look nothing like solar systems, but it's the way the concept of orbitals was first thought off in 1900, and it's a relatively logical thing to think.

    The fact that high schools never go further and explain "well, that's how it was conceptualized, but upon further inspection, the orbitals look more like (s, p, d, sp3, sp2 etcet), and it's all a matter of statistics where you find an electron at a given point, they do not really have a classical position/momentum at this level of physics" is something i'm not a real fan off, but it's somewhat understandable, given that quantum mechanics is something that's
    a) really counterintuitive
    b) is almost impossible to understand without considerable math knowledge
    c) Has no consistent physical interpretation, except the Copenhagen (which is basicly "It works, it works perfectly, all the time, so do the math, be happy with the results and stop thinking about what you are doing or you will get headaches), which makes a hard sell.

    All that being said, i think it would be great to expose kids to QM and Relativistic physics because it has staggering consequences, they're extremely valid, and it really makes you think about the world around you.

    I disagree, particularly about the level of maths required to teach about electrons as probability clouds. They taught us that stuff in first year college chem with no more math than the mid-level HS maths course for our state, and that was straight out of a standard text (Kotz and Treichel). We learned enough to change our conceptualisation of matter without having to become physicists. I think the Bohr model becomes deliberately misleading past grade 9 or 10, even though its useful for teaching basic bonding and such.
    The issue isn't so much what's taught, it seems more that it isn't properly contextualized. There are too many people who take low level science courses and don't know to sit down and shut up when they don't understand half of some new thing they've decided can't possibly/absolutely must work.

    electricitylikesme on
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    Low KeyLow Key Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Atoms don't actually look like teeny solar systems, but they don't teach how they actually work as high school level for some stupid reason. Its very annoying.

    Look if they're gonna just go and completely make up a new atomic theory every X years, you might as well just forget it all and teach what you can explain with an orange and some eraser tips.

    You've gotta start with the made up stuff that makes sense and then work your way up to the other, newer, better made up stuff that doesn't. That's what I believe.

    Low Key on
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Low Key wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Atoms don't actually look like teeny solar systems, but they don't teach how they actually work as high school level for some stupid reason. Its very annoying.

    Look if they're gonna just go and completely make up a new atomic theory every X years, you might as well just forget it all and teach what you can explain with an orange and some eraser tips.

    You've gotta start with the made up stuff that makes sense and then work your way up to the other, newer, better made up stuff that doesn't. That's what I believe.
    This is why I advocate teaching the plum pudding model. If we're going to be wrong, let's be wrong deliciously.

    electricitylikesme on
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    Low KeyLow Key Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    They still do teach it. Year 10 science is gorgeous. They go through about five or six different models and then go "None of this is right, but it's as close as you're gonna get. Learn them all."

    Low Key on
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    My lack of mid-afternoon plum pudding speaks against this theory.

    electricitylikesme on
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    SithDrummerSithDrummer Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Drez wrote: »
    That Coca Cola is better than Pepsi.
    Well, of course you can't prove that; Pepsi is definitively better.

    SithDrummer on
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    evilbobevilbob RADELAIDERegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Drez wrote: »
    That Coca Cola is better than Pepsi.
    Well, of course you can't prove that; Pepsi is definitively better.
    It's deliberately sweeter to skew your sense of taste so that coke tastes weird and bitter in a blind tasting. If that's what you mean then yes it's better.

    evilbob on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2007
    I believe that no threat nor obstacle is insurmountable, given adequate time to prepare.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I believe that my housemate believes that my Ipod is somehow responsible for the sudden inability of his itunes library to locate half its stock.

    I believe that he is wrong.

    DodgeBlan on
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    SmasherSmasher Starting to get dizzy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I believe that no threat nor obstacle is insurmountable, given adequate time to prepare.

    Bruce??

    Smasher on
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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Rohan wrote: »
    Earth's orbit around our sun is not just a good spot for water to flow and life to start, but it's in the perfect spot. Venus is closer to the sun, and too hot to support life. Mars is further than we are and is too cold.

    there is a fair amount more to it than that.

    like, enough more to it, that I would consider you to pretty much be wrong, when implying that the primary cause of the diffrence in temperature is the distance from the sun.

    redx on
    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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    HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Rohan, you should google "atmosphere".

    Hoz on
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2007
    Smasher wrote: »
    I believe that no threat nor obstacle is insurmountable, given adequate time to prepare.

    Bruce??

    What, everyone else is allowed to believe in a virgin giving birth but I'm not allowed to put faith in the ideals of a guy who saw something wrong with his community and devoted his life to actively working to make it a safer and better place?
    redx wrote: »
    Rohan wrote: »
    Earth's orbit around our sun is not just a good spot for water to flow and life to start, but it's in the perfect spot. Venus is closer to the sun, and too hot to support life. Mars is further than we are and is too cold.

    there is a fair amount more to it than that.

    like, enough more to it, that I would consider you to pretty much be wrong, when implying that the primary cause of the diffrence in temperature is the distance from the sun.

    If anything we're on our way to becoming another Venus. Yet we're not getting any closer to the sun. Odd that.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    MerovingiMerovingi regular
    edited October 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    I believe that the perception that all politicians are corrupt comes from people who are deeply deeply ignorant of politics.

    Deeply, deeply ignorant of politics I am not. I can honestly understand why you'd think that though.

    Edit: I should add, however, that I am not under the impression that all politicians are corrupt. I do sincerely believe that quite a few of them are doing what they think is best for everyone, which is unfortunate I guess.

    Merovingi on
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    DaemonionDaemonion Mountain Man USARegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I believe that the brain holds incredible, unlocked potential in any number of things.

    Daemonion on
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    You know the short answer to "but the Earth is perfect for life!" is "well yes, otherwise it wouldn't be here to say stupid things about that."

    electricitylikesme on
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    SmasherSmasher Starting to get dizzy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Smasher wrote: »
    I believe that no threat nor obstacle is insurmountable, given adequate time to prepare.

    Bruce??

    What, everyone else is allowed to believe in a virgin giving birth but I'm not allowed to put faith in the ideals of a guy who saw something wrong with his community and devoted his life to actively working to make it a safer and better place?

    Oh, I agree. I was just wondering if you were, perhaps, his alter alter ego.

    Smasher on
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