A Very Awkward Situation

naporeon

So, a big chunk of my socializing is done with a large, nebulous group of people, some of which have been hanging out together for over a decade, others only for the last couple months or weeks. People meander in and out, usually introduced to the group by people who are already part of it, and we are a pretty relaxed bunch who manage to have a pretty great time. We have--shockingly--never had any real drama between folks.

I've got a good friend in this group (we'll call him Lucas), who's a blast to hang out with...great sense of humor, shared interests, mixological wiz, etc. I've known him for about 10 years now, and he is one of the nicest people I know. He used to be incredibly awkward, socially speaking, but has really come into his own...except with women, whom he dotes on and fawns over. This will prove important in just a moment....

New to the group is a woman (let's call her Teresa) who just moved to Seattle from the East Coast. Likewise, she has a fantastic sense of humor, is that fun mix of "somewhat shy" and "totally unafraid to completely dork-out in public", and is just generally very fun to be around. And, like Lucas, she is really, really nice.

The problem is that Lucas, in his uncomfortable and awkward way, is doting on Teresa. Whenever we all hang out, he makes a point to lavish attention on her...and not just normal "hey, how was your week?"-type attention. No. Attention of the constant barrage of "can I get you anything?", "let me get you another drink", "what's wrong, you aren't smiling?" variety. Constant. She even mentioned it to her closest friend, who's also part of the group (and the person who subsequently told me)...Teresa recognizes that Lucas is a nice guy, but considers his constant and fawning attention to be "creepy" (her word). The situation is compounded by the fact that Teresa, in addition to being pretty shy and worried about hurting people's feelings, recognizes that she is a newcomer to the group and doesn't want alienate anyone by causing any messiness by directly telling Lucas to back off.

The issue isn't intra-group drama, really. Neither Lucas or Teresa are dramatic people, and if it came down to it, there'd be no conflict anyway...the new girl would just get excised. But as I see it, this is endemic to Lucas' treatment of women he considers even moderately attractive or interesting, and, as his friend, I would like to see him address the issue in general. Also, Teresa is great, and I don't want her to feel uncomfortable or to have her stop hanging out with us.

My problem, predictably, is how--or even whether--to broach the subject to Lucas. Should I be general, and just tell him that the doting and intense focus and fawning is off-putting to people? Should I mention that Teresa specifically is uncomfortable with his attentions? If I do bring it up, how should I phrase it? Should I call him, or make a special effort to, say, just go visit him at his apartment, and have a frank talk about all this?

I am a lot of things, but tactful and sensitive in situations like this is definitely not one of them; to wit, I can't really trust my nature or instincts on this. Any help--particularly taken from similar personal experiences--would be outstanding.

Xaquin

personaly, I'd just wait till he does it again and tell him to knock it off

If I ever catch any of my friends acting out of the norm in an uncomfortable fashion for someone I call them out on it. Likewise when I'm being more stupid then normal they'll tell me. (this has only happened on maybe three occasions between all of my friends and myself)

I don't know

Always worked for me but like I said I've only ever done it a couple times.

Feral

I'd just be blunt. Definitely do it in private, though, you don't want to do it around Teresa or any other mutual friends, because that's emasculating.

I'd say, "Hey, there's something I want to talk to you about? Can I buy you a beer?" (or coffee, if he swings that way). Then once we're sat down at a table with our respective beverages, I'd just say, "Look, it's obvious you're attracted to Teresa, but you're acting like a puppydog and it's already driven her away from you. You need to back off on this one... and with the next woman you meet that you get interested in, just man up and ask her out before you get all twisted up inside about her."

EclecticGroove

Yeah, it IS a touchy subject. You'd be surprised at how many guys that do this don't even realize what they are doing.

I think most guys are guilty of doing it to some extent or another at least one time, or with one girl (especially when younger), but it's something you realize just doesn't work at all or very well as you get older. Not that it isn't cute to some girls at the appropriate times mind you... but from the first time you meet and lasting till the other person gets sick of it is another thing (since both guys and girls can certainly do this).

As to how to talk to him about it? Yeah, be blunt, but not brutal. Don't call him a pathetic loser or anything, but don't act like it isn't a problem either. I don't know his personality or how open you guys are when talking, so the best I can offer is lead him into a conversation about women in general and then bring up the topic of how he starts acting around them.

I'm not so sure how opening up the conversation with this girl as the focus would work with him, but maybe it would go over well. From the sounds of it he's already blow his chance with her (if he had one to start) and does need to address it so he doesn't drive her away along with any other future female group members.

Meiz

I don't see it being that difficult personally. Just up and tell the guy. He's your friend. He might not even realize what he's doing until someone actually points it out to him. I know, I was the exact same way until a couple of friends of mine made the comment. I changed and have had a lot better results with women as a result.

naporeon

I guess I should clarify a few things.

First, Lucas is 27. Hardly a grizzled old man, but old enough that the bad habits of an overzealous young man ought to more or less worked out already. And I'm not surprised at the behavior, while it is a huge mistake, I think that the vast majority of guys do it. Even when they think they don't. So the problem isn't that I think Lucas is some sort of freak, it's that I want to help him change his ways.

Next, I have no problem at all having uncomfortable conversations, or expressing opinions that might hurt or anger. In fact, that's part of the problem; I have a reputation as a bit of a condescending, arrogant twat. Mostly because I am a condescending, arrogant twat. This is all well and good, but it also makes it more likely that Lucas would bristle on hearing a "you need to shape up, son!" lecture from me.

But thanks for the advice, guys. Keep it coming.

EclecticGroove

naporeon wrote: »

I guess I should clarify a few things.

First, Lucas is 27. Hardly a grizzled old man, but old enough that the bad habits of an overzealous young man ought to more or less worked out already. And I'm not surprised at the behavior, while it is a huge mistake, I think that the vast majority of guys do it. Even when they think they don't. So the problem isn't that I think Lucas is some sort of freak, it's that I want to help him change his ways.

Next, I have no problem at all having uncomfortable conversations, or expressing opinions that might hurt or anger. In fact, that's part of the problem; I have a reputation as a bit of a condescending, arrogant twat. Mostly because I am a condescending, arrogant twat. This is all well and good, but it also makes it more likely that Lucas would bristle on hearing a "you need to shape up, son!" lecture from me.

But thanks for the advice, guys. Keep it coming.

Do you have another friend that feels the same way that he may take more seriously?

Not that he won't take you seriously if you present it in a serious manner and make sure he knows it. But if you are worried he may simply take it as you being a jackass or something, a backup plan might help.

naporeon

EclecticGroove wrote: »

Do you have another friend that feels the same way that he may take more seriously?

Not that he won't take you seriously if you present it in a serious manner and make sure he knows it. But if you are worried he may simply take it as you being a jackass or something, a backup plan might help.

Actually, that's a great idea. But the only person other than myself who knows about Teresa's discomfort is the girl she told, who would be ideal to talk to Lucas (they have a great relationship), were it not for the fact that she moved out of state yesterday (literally).

Lucas loves me like a brother, and values my counsel, but my concern is that on a subject this delicate, his totally natural inclination to feel somewhat hurt would cause him to be overly defensive...and ultimately, I want him to be able to focus on the message, not the messenger.

It's strange. I'm not in a state of constant agitation or concern about this (I don't feel like I'm overthinking or "Mother Hen"-ing the situation), but I really want to help Lucas in the general sense. I believe he'll be much happier if he can just learn to view/treat women in a healthier way.

robotbebop

naporean wrote:

my concern is that on a subject this delicate, his totally natural inclination to feel somewhat hurt would cause him to be overly defensive...and ultimately, I want him to be able to focus on the message, not the messenger.

Ah, well.. we'll disregard my post then. If he'd get defensive then maybe having more than just the two of you would be a bad thing anyway.

EclecticGroove

Yeah, getting someone else to talk if you really feel you won't be able to deliver it well, or he won't take it from you well doesn't mean they have to know how this girl feels. They may have noticed it on their own and agree he needs some steering in the right direction.

The Green Eyed Monster

What Feral said was right.

Just broach it with him like you noticed it yourself, no need to include the fact that you've heard gossip from other quarters.

naporeon

celery77 wrote: »

What Feral said was right.

Just broach it with him like you noticed it yourself, no need to include the fact that you've heard gossip from other quarters.

It's important to clarify that I have most certainly noticed--on my own--his awkward and over-attentive behavior with women on several occasions (most of his friends have), and was painfully aware that he was doing the same thing with Teresa. The only thing I wasn't aware of was that Teresa was actually "creeped out" by it.

But you are spot on, cel. Bringing the gossipy angle into it would be a huge mistake.

LaPuzza

If what he's doing is that obvious, but you can't really call him on it without hurting his feelings, help him catch it himself. Identify exactly what he's doing, espcially if it is something as obvious as asking if she needs a drink instead of asking the whole group. Tell him to pay attention to how many times he does it. He'll start to realize it, and start to correct himself, without having to come to you and say that you are right.

Alternatively, turn it into a drinking game, and tell him you're going to order shots every time he tries to get his smooth on. After you stick him with a $100 bar tab, he'll stop doing it whether he agrees with you or not.

brandotheninjamaster

If I were you Iwould find a way not to talk to him alone about this. I say that because, even though you 2 are really close and he values your counsel, I think that 2 people would really drive the point home. You also mentioned that he is 27, that might serve to be a problem later if he is too set in his ways to want to change.

LadyM

I think being creeped out by that behavior from someone old enough to "know better" (not raw, new, teenage meat) is pretty typical. Maybe you can play that aspect up . . . "Lucas, it's nice that you're welcoming Teresa into the group, but I think you'd have better luck with her if you played it cool and backed off."

Of course, this will just be a ruse. He has NO chance with her because he's already made her intensely uncomfortable and she won't want to encourage him.

naporeon

LadyM wrote: »

I think being creeped out by that behavior from someone old enough to "know better" (not raw, new, teenage meat) is pretty typical. Maybe you can play that aspect up . . . "Lucas, it's nice that you're welcoming Teresa into the group, but I think you'd have better luck with her if you played it cool and backed off."

Of course, this will just be a ruse. He has NO chance with her because he's already made her intensely uncomfortable and she won't want to encourage him.

Oh, for sure...I agree that Teresa's reaction is perfectly reasonable. Also, I think she's handled it pretty well.

I like your suggestion, but the thing is, I only suspect that he's doing this because he finds her attractive. It's entirely possible--given his behavior with other people--that he is only being what he considers to be polite and chivalrous, given her newness to both the area and our group; as I've said, he's an incredibly nice guy. There's a decent chance that when I talk to him about this, he will be confused that people consider this instance of behavior to be romantically motivated.

That said, your post is exactly the sort of advice I'm looking for: specific examples of things to say that will make the conversation as gentle as possible, but still help curb the behavior. Of course, if I'm the one doing the talking (as I will almost certainly be), I will also have to consider the danger of coming across as a condescending jerk based on my patterns of behavior.

Jacobkosh

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I don't find this particularly complicated or awkward at all. Tell him your concerns - be polite but also firm, and if he protests or starts accusing you of jealousy/dickishness/whatever, then tell him that Teresa said this herself and that the other girl can verify this too. Because frankly, if he's 27 and hasn't got these rudiments of behavior down by now, then yeah, he does have to be told.

IreneDAdler

I agree with pretty much everybody: You need to sit down with him and have a man-to-man conversation with him. I just have one question: His behaviour seems pretty blantantly unacceptable. If he has been with you guys for such a long time, why hasn't anyone noticed or said anything? Is it because, up till recently, he's never directed it towards a female in your group?

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

LadyM's exactly right.

If he's doing out of romantic interest (probable), then hopefully talking about it will put a stop to most of his weird behavior.

If, on the tiny off-chance that this is just how he acts around a new friend, having the 'hey dude people think this is kinda creepy' talk will still be a good thing.

joshuadewaal

I had a friend in a very similar situation. I found the best way was to be more general in speaking to him. He doesn't need to know the girl thinks he is a creep. That will only hurt his feelings and make him bitter towards the girl. Try explaining to him that he shouldn't be so over bearing, and to "play it cool". Girls are rarely attracted to guys that initially fawn over them.

Who knows, if he starts to 'ignore' her during group hangouts maybe the girl will eventually come around, having missed the attention she had been getting.

cooljammer00

well, does he know he's doing this? i mean, as a man to another man, you could pull him aside and tell him that his fawning over her is weirding you out, so it's probably weirding her out too. you dont have to let him know she told you he/it was creepy. that will just crush him. is this girl into him at all?

naporeon

That's the thing. The more I think about it, the less I think he's really into her. I think he's just doing it because he's inept with women, and is operating out of some grotesque admixture of sexist--but well-meaning--misapprehension of women and an outmoded concept of chivalry. He genuinely seems to think that women require special attention; I've seen him treat women that he has absolutely no interest in in more or less the same way.

I will be seeing him tonight, though, and Teresa won't be there. I will just tell him the situation, without specifically mentioning (unless it proves advisable) Teresa's reaction to his attentions. I guess that I'll encourage him to apply the "would you do the same thing with a guy?" yardstick; if he insists that women are different, I will simply tell him that they don't see it that way, and that if chivalry is truly his aim, he will consider their feelings and not crowd them.

I will post an update if there's interest.

onceling

Just jumping on the 'don't mention that Teresa is creeped out' bandwagon here. If I were Teresa (being a girl myself) I wouldn't want anything I had mentioned to be brought up unless I had specifically asked you to do so on my behalf. Potential for drama if you do bring it up.

I'd just go with what you, personally, have observed. If he says something like "she doesn't seem to mind" in defense then just play it cool and stick with your personal observations, don't be tempted to say 'WELL SHE TOLD ME ITS CREEPY'.

Ravincrisis

So I was in your shoes. I just asked my buddy, "bro, are u interested in Margie?" to which he replied, "Is it that obvious?". Most guys don't realize they do it, I suppose. Anyway, after some discussion I found out the following things:
1. He finds her attractive
2. He doesn't think she's funny (but everyone else thinks she is)
So i asked why he would be into her just for her looks? What of her personality? He only shrugged. More or less, i believe he is like Lucas. They don't really know what they want, they only want to act that way as means of chivalry. So i just advised that if there personalities don't mesh, it may not work out. I also said he should get to know girls better before lavishing attention on them. He actually considered this and thought about his actions. In the end, he admitted Margie wasn't the girl for him and he would take my advice on the next girl he meets. So hope Lucas understands. Much luck.