A disease that slowly kills the vampire population, starting with the most powerful and working down.
Hmm sounds lame.
I have to say that coupled with the need to diablerize other vampires in order to survive this makes for a pretty cool scenario. You are basically fighting a losing battle since the number of vampires keep going down due to diablerizing and the disease, making it one giant Battle Royal, with plenty of leeway for some scheming and backstabbing. After all, all those allies/underlings you used to be able to rely on may now look at you like prey. I imagine that Ventrues in particular may have been extra screwed in this regard
Man I don't know what version you read but Lucifer wasn't Lilith's boyfriend. He was barely in that scenario. He was like a footnote.
Eh, I guess I'm conflating what I know from that scenario and Revelations of the Dark Mother, where she and Lucifer were dating for awhile. The entire scenario in Gehenna is basically taken from that book anyway.
Dracomicron on
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited November 2007
Well, maybe it wasn't Beckett, but whoever the protagonist was in the Gehenna novel, he survived(if earth melding counts).
I've never been able to read stuff like Revelations. It seemed way too complex for my understanding.
And most of the fun in the Gehenna portrayed in the novels is seeing elders who think they're invulnerable get taken out by Caitiff.
Especially Victoria. Embodied everything I hate about Toreador.
I didn't think the Withering was a disease, I just thought it was God (or something) making the vampires' blood gradually less potent, going from the top down, and I think it's in all the scenarios. Wormwood's different because most vampires die offscreen and it doesn't effect the PCs because they're protected in the church.
Also, Wormwood's certainly the most interesting, but the last one's the blockbuster type of story - society collapses, ancient vampires ruling a bunch of ruined city states, rounding up whatever humans are left in camps and rewarding followers with permission to diablerize other vampires
All the vampires did get wiped out, either way. At best, a handful turned into humans, that's it
The whole Withering thing was supposed to push their blood pools and potency down until they reached 0 - essentially, they all ran out of blood and starved to death.
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't some kind of showdown with Cain, since he's the reason that Vampires exist to begin with. Am I correct in this or did he show up in all the scenarios?
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't some kind of showdown with Cain, since he's the reason that Vampires exist to begin with. Am I correct in this or did he show up in all the scenarios?
He was in the second one, wasn't he? The one with Lilith? I remember she was hunting him down with a bunch of 2nd/3rd generation vamps, I can't remember if she actually found him.
BernardBernoulli on
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
edited November 2007
Well, in the novel,
much like in Bloodlines, he doesn't get into any confrontations, he seems content with just observing.
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't some kind of showdown with Cain, since he's the reason that Vampires exist to begin with. Am I correct in this or did he show up in all the scenarios?
He was in the second one, wasn't he? The one with Lilith? I remember she was hunting him down with a bunch of 2nd/3rd generation vamps, I can't remember if she actually found him.
Yeah, I know but I just felt it was a bit weird that he doesn't feature more prominently for the majority of the scenarios. Since everything began with him you'd think that he would be THE major player in the endgame.
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't some kind of showdown with Cain, since he's the reason that Vampires exist to begin with. Am I correct in this or did he show up in all the scenarios?
He's the main McGuffin in the stupid Lilith scenario, and he has a cameo in the last:
After all the vampires are dead, and the world is basically destroyed, Caine crawls out of the ground and swears up a blue streak because he's still alive. Not even Gehenna could put him out of his misery. God laughs.
In Wormwood he's actually a main player, too:
Wormwood comes because of his actions. He dies after 40 days just like every other vampire because God gave him long enough to apologize, and he couldn't be bothered to do it. What a little shit.
The thing is, though, Caine never put much of an effort in to be involved before, why should he now? He's, like, the worst absentee dad ever.
I've never been able to read stuff like Revelations. It seemed way too complex for my understanding.
I didn't like any of them except Days of Fire. It reads like a firsthand account of the prehistory of every game line, without the pseudo-religious bullshit. Lucifer is the first populist.
Yeah, I know but I just felt it was a bit weird that he doesn't feature more prominently for the majority of the scenarios. Since everything began with him you'd think that he would be THE major player in the endgame.
I thought that.
I think they were trying to present a number of very different Gehenna scenarios, and shoving Caine in always seemed a bit stupid - he's invincible and vastly more powerful than any of the other characters, even if he is seriously weakened by events. And it kind of made sense - the Antes didn't really care about him, he didn't care about them, so there would be little reason for conflict or even his appearance
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't some kind of showdown with Cain, since he's the reason that Vampires exist to begin with. Am I correct in this or did he show up in all the scenarios?
He shows up sometimes, but there's no real "showdown" scenario, other than the risible lilith one. A showdown with Caine would be pointless. If you fight Caine, he wins. Nothing, outside of maybe the Wyrm, takes down Caine.
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't some kind of showdown with Cain, since he's the reason that Vampires exist to begin with. Am I correct in this or did he show up in all the scenarios?
He shows up sometimes, but there's no real "showdown" scenario, other than the risible lilith one. A showdown with Caine would be pointless. If you fight Caine, he wins. Nothing, outside of maybe the Wyrm, takes down Caine.
I guess I phrased it badly but when I wrote "showdown" I mainly meant that the PC's get to meet Caine and talk to him about the whole mess that vampires have turned the world into, hell maybe even influencing him in some way. How he responds to that is a whole other ballpark though :P
I guess I phrased it badly but when I wrote "showdown" I mainly meant that the PC's get to meet Caine and talk to him about the whole mess that vampires have turned the world into, hell maybe even influencing him in some way. How he responds to that is a whole other ballpark though :P
Remember that the end times books are all basically toolkits. They do basically have a chapter on using Caine in any of the scenarios; they just don't make it necessary.
I've just retrieved the sarcophagus from the giovanni mansion and I'm now standing in leCroix's room with the sarcophagus and that wolf guy there. I can only talk to the prince, and when I do, we repeat the same conversation from before, and I re-get the quest to go find gary. Am I missing something, or has a bug finally caught me?
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't some kind of showdown with Cain, since he's the reason that Vampires exist to begin with. Am I correct in this or did he show up in all the scenarios?
He shows up sometimes, but there's no real "showdown" scenario, other than the risible lilith one. A showdown with Caine would be pointless. If you fight Caine, he wins. Nothing, outside of maybe the Wyrm, takes down Caine.
Humorous aside: I think his stats in-game are "You Lose". WoD is very fatalistic.
There is no point about a Caine confrontation, since Caine has no interest in ruling, and cannot be killed. Hell, it is doubtful he could be found.
I've just retrieved the sarcophagus from the giovanni mansion and I'm now standing in leCroix's room with the sarcophagus and that wolf guy there. I can only talk to the prince, and when I do, we repeat the same conversation from before, and I re-get the quest to go find gary. Am I missing something, or has a bug finally caught me?
Yeah, you've hit a bug.
You could try
talking to 'wolf guy' instead, since he has the info for the next mission
I've just retrieved the sarcophagus from the giovanni mansion and I'm now standing in leCroix's room with the sarcophagus and that wolf guy there. I can only talk to the prince, and when I do, we repeat the same conversation from before, and I re-get the quest to go find gary. Am I missing something, or has a bug finally caught me?
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't some kind of showdown with Cain, since he's the reason that Vampires exist to begin with. Am I correct in this or did he show up in all the scenarios?
He shows up sometimes, but there's no real "showdown" scenario, other than the risible lilith one. A showdown with Caine would be pointless. If you fight Caine, he wins. Nothing, outside of maybe the Wyrm, takes down Caine.
Humorous aside: I think his stats in-game are "You Lose". WoD is very fatalistic.
There is no point about a Caine confrontation, since Caine has no interest in ruling, and cannot be killed. Hell, it is doubtful he could be found.
Specifically, if I'm remembering this right, there's a whole section of the core book entitled "What happens if the players fight Caine?" and the entire text is
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't some kind of showdown with Cain, since he's the reason that Vampires exist to begin with. Am I correct in this or did he show up in all the scenarios?
He shows up sometimes, but there's no real "showdown" scenario, other than the risible lilith one. A showdown with Caine would be pointless. If you fight Caine, he wins. Nothing, outside of maybe the Wyrm, takes down Caine.
Humorous aside: I think his stats in-game are "You Lose". WoD is very fatalistic.
There is no point about a Caine confrontation, since Caine has no interest in ruling, and cannot be killed. Hell, it is doubtful he could be found.
Specifically, if I'm remembering this right, there's a whole section of the core book entitled "What happens if the players fight Caine?" and the entire text is
"The players lose."
Yeah, that's what I recall as well. I think the section also says that Caine should be used sparingly, and any plotline that directly involves Caine as a major player is discouraged.
The use of Caine as the taxi driver in Bloodlines is pretty much the perfect way to use the character.
Specifically, if I'm remembering this right, there's a whole section of the core book entitled "What happens if the players fight Caine?" and the entire text is
"The players lose."
Yeah, the book just states "You lose".
Which I guess is a nice change from the various games where the super-powerful entities that define the setting are just classier fodder.
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't some kind of showdown with Cain, since he's the reason that Vampires exist to begin with. Am I correct in this or did he show up in all the scenarios?
He shows up sometimes, but there's no real "showdown" scenario, other than the risible lilith one. A showdown with Caine would be pointless. If you fight Caine, he wins. Nothing, outside of maybe the Wyrm, takes down Caine.
Humorous aside: I think his stats in-game are "You Lose". WoD is very fatalistic.
There is no point about a Caine confrontation, since Caine has no interest in ruling, and cannot be killed. Hell, it is doubtful he could be found.
Specifically, if I'm remembering this right, there's a whole section of the core book entitled "What happens if the players fight Caine?" and the entire text is
"The players lose."
Yeah, that's what I recall as well. I think the section also says that Caine should be used sparingly, and any plotline that directly involves Caine as a major player is discouraged.
The use of Caine as the taxi driver in Bloodlines is pretty much the perfect way to use the character.
Refresh my memory on this, but how exactly
are players supposed to identify the Taxi Driver as Caine? I mean, I know about the game files naming him Caine, but other than that, was there a hint?
Yeah, that's what I recall as well. I think the section also says that Caine should be used sparingly, and any plotline that directly involves Caine as a major player is discouraged.
The use of Caine as the taxi driver in Bloodlines is pretty much the perfect way to use the character.
Refresh my memory on this, but how exactly
are players supposed to identify the Taxi Driver as Caine? I mean, I know about the game files naming him Caine, but other than that, was there a hint?
A Malkavian dialogue identifies him as Caine, but otherwise (according to the devs) it was one of those things the player couldn't know and had to decide on for themselves
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that there wasn't some kind of showdown with Cain, since he's the reason that Vampires exist to begin with. Am I correct in this or did he show up in all the scenarios?
He shows up sometimes, but there's no real "showdown" scenario, other than the risible lilith one. A showdown with Caine would be pointless. If you fight Caine, he wins. Nothing, outside of maybe the Wyrm, takes down Caine.
Humorous aside: I think his stats in-game are "You Lose". WoD is very fatalistic.
There is no point about a Caine confrontation, since Caine has no interest in ruling, and cannot be killed. Hell, it is doubtful he could be found.
Specifically, if I'm remembering this right, there's a whole section of the core book entitled "What happens if the players fight Caine?" and the entire text is
"The players lose."
Yeah, that's what I recall as well. I think the section also says that Caine should be used sparingly, and any plotline that directly involves Caine as a major player is discouraged.
The use of Caine as the taxi driver in Bloodlines is pretty much the perfect way to use the character.
Refresh my memory on this, but how exactly
are players supposed to identify the Taxi Driver as Caine? I mean, I know about the game files naming him Caine, but other than that, was there a hint?
As a Malkavian, you specifically refer to him as Caine, if I recall correctly. Of course, this is either an example of Malkavian insight or conversely insanity. You don't really know for sure. Which is why it is perfect.
I honestly don't think the taxi driver's Caine. It just seems weird - this ancient, extremely powerful entity who really doesn't like vampires anymore and doesn't like the Jyhad taking an interest in events in L.A.
I don't think so, it doesn't fit his character. Remember he cursed the Antediluvians, and the modern vampires are just playing the same old games fighting over power and stuff.
I honestly don't think the taxi driver's Caine. It just seems weird - this ancient, extremely powerful entity who really doesn't like vampires anymore and doesn't like the Jyhad taking an interest in events in L.A.
I don't think so, it doesn't fit his character. Remember he cursed the Antediluvians, and the modern vampires are just playing the same old games fighting over power and stuff.
I don't think that Caine actually hates his childer. Disappointed, maybe but that's more in part due to their vampiric nature and the "society" in which they are brought up in. And with him being the grand daddy of all vampires he probably still feels some kind of responsibility to them, to try and help curb their impulses, intrigues and infighting to eventually help attain the ultimate cure, Golgotha.
However, eons of direct activity have probably made him weary of taking too active a part in anything, and also being pretty much the most powerful thing on the planet would make any involvement with him not just upset the balance, but downright destroy it. Could also be one of those parenting things where yes daddy could solve everything, but the point is for the child to solve the (problem) by themselves.
I haven't read any of the novels though, so maybe his character is actually different. I'm just going by old manuels, wikipedia and the 10 min conversation in the game.
I prefer making up my own mind whether it's him, just as in The Final Nights (although there's a lot more evidence for that really being Caine, and the two are mutually exclusive.
And with him being the grand daddy of all vampires he probably still feels some kind of responsibility to them, to try and help curb their impulses, intrigues and infighting to eventually help attain the ultimate cure, Golgotha.
I think you mean... Golconda, I think the name was. Not Golgotha. Golgotha was the mountain or hill on which Jesus was cruxified.
I honestly don't think the taxi driver's Caine. It just seems weird - this ancient, extremely powerful entity who really doesn't like vampires anymore and doesn't like the Jyhad taking an interest in events in L.A.
I don't think so, it doesn't fit his character. Remember he cursed the Antediluvians, and the modern vampires are just playing the same old games fighting over power and stuff.
If you choose the "Fuck everybody!" ending, it's sort of implied that you've escaped the Jyhad. A minute later when Jack and Caine are watching the fireworks, Jack says something like "The kid turned out all right after all." So maybe that was the whole point of the Sarcophagus shenanigans - to give your PC a chance to leave all that bullshit behind.
The plot doesn't have anything to do with the Jyhad, really. You're basically Jack's pawn in killing LaCroix. I loved the ending, I thought it was awesome that I wasn't trying to save the world, or that the world was even in trouble. The game goes out of its way to reinforce the idea that you don't really matter, and you don't! It's great.
I don't think that Caine actually hates his childer. Disappointed, maybe but that's more in part due to their vampiric nature and the "society" in which they are brought up in. And with him being the grand daddy of all vampires he probably still feels some kind of responsibility to them, to try and help curb their impulses, intrigues and infighting to eventually help attain the ultimate cure, Golgotha.
However, eons of direct activity have probably made him weary of taking too active a part in anything, and also being pretty much the most powerful thing on the planet would make any involvement with him not just upset the balance, but downright destroy it. Could also be one of those parenting things where yes daddy could solve everything, but the point is for the child to solve the (problem) by themselves.
I haven't read any of the novels though, so maybe his character is actually different. I'm just going by old manuels, wikipedia and the 10 min conversation in the game.
I was under the impression he hated the 13 (or however many) Antediluvians because they killed his childer, the 2nd Generation, and that's why he cursed them, and left. After that, he didn't have any involvement with vampires, even when they rebuilt Enoch.
There's never any indication he went after Golconda, either, and it's implied he'd be more or less unable to attain it. Besides, Golconda was always Saulot's thing, and Caine never seemed enthusiastic about helping out anyone to transcend the curse
The plot doesn't have anything to do with the Jyhad, really.
Everything has to do with the Jyhad.
One of the main themes of Vampire, and one that's told to you in the game, is that no matter what you do, somewhere an Elder knew you were going to do, pulled the strings and worked out how to profit from it. You ever wonder who told Jack to take an interest?
If you choose the "Fuck everybody!" ending, it's sort of implied that you've escaped the Jyhad. A minute later when Jack and Caine are watching the fireworks, Jack says something like "The kid turned out all right after all." So maybe that was the whole point of the Sarcophagus shenanigans - to give your PC a chance to leave all that bullshit behind.
Tube said it - the elder vampires are way ahead of you on everything. Someone, somewhere is manipulating you. And most of the other vampires around. Even the anarchs are manipulating you - Jack hardly lets you in on his plans or gives you much of a choice. And there's someone manipulating LaCroix, that Tremere bloke, the Sabbat.
Christ, the Tzimisce think they killed their Antediluvian and are fighting against the Antediluvians and the Jyhad, but Tzimisce's still alive and the elders are calling the shots in the Sabbat
One of the main themes of Vampire, and one that's told to you in the game, is that no matter what you do, somewhere an Elder knew you were going to do, pulled the strings and worked out how to profit from it. You ever wonder who told Jack to take an interest?
Well...
Depending on who you think the cabbie is, it was Caine who put Jack up to it. For reasons of his own, no doubt, but I seem to recall that Caine is slightly above the Antedilluvians and not exactly part of the Jyhad. As a result, his scheming might have loosened your leash... provided you didn't decide to tighten it yourself.
Of course, it's very possible that Caine (or whoever) didn't have an interest in you, but an interest in Los Angeles and getting LaCroix out of the picture.
One of the main themes of Vampire, and one that's told to you in the game, is that no matter what you do, somewhere an Elder knew you were going to do, pulled the strings and worked out how to profit from it. You ever wonder who told Jack to take an interest?
Well...
Depending on who you think the cabbie is, it was Caine who put Jack up to it. For reasons of his own, no doubt, but I seem to recall that Caine is slightly above the Antedilluvians and not exactly part of the Jyhad. As a result, his scheming might have loosened your leash... provided you didn't decide to tighten it yourself.
Of course, it's very possible that Caine (or whoever) didn't have an interest in you, but an interest in Los Angeles and getting LaCroix out of the picture.
But why would he give a shit about Lacroix? Even if his continued existence would make a difference in the long run (it wouldn't), Strauss or the Que-Jin would've taken care of him eventually anyway.
How about "Nobody escapes the Jyhad. Unless Caine says so."
Posts
Hmm sounds lame.
You sound lame.
Eh, I guess I'm conflating what I know from that scenario and Revelations of the Dark Mother, where she and Lucifer were dating for awhile. The entire scenario in Gehenna is basically taken from that book anyway.
I've never been able to read stuff like Revelations. It seemed way too complex for my understanding.
And most of the fun in the Gehenna portrayed in the novels is seeing elders who think they're invulnerable get taken out by Caitiff.
I didn't think the Withering was a disease, I just thought it was God (or something) making the vampires' blood gradually less potent, going from the top down, and I think it's in all the scenarios. Wormwood's different because most vampires die offscreen and it doesn't effect the PCs because they're protected in the church.
Also, Wormwood's certainly the most interesting, but the last one's the blockbuster type of story - society collapses, ancient vampires ruling a bunch of ruined city states, rounding up whatever humans are left in camps and rewarding followers with permission to diablerize other vampires
All the vampires did get wiped out, either way. At best, a handful turned into humans, that's it
The whole Withering thing was supposed to push their blood pools and potency down until they reached 0 - essentially, they all ran out of blood and starved to death.
He was in the second one, wasn't he? The one with Lilith? I remember she was hunting him down with a bunch of 2nd/3rd generation vamps, I can't remember if she actually found him.
He's the main McGuffin in the stupid Lilith scenario, and he has a cameo in the last:
In Wormwood he's actually a main player, too:
The thing is, though, Caine never put much of an effort in to be involved before, why should he now? He's, like, the worst absentee dad ever.
I didn't like any of them except Days of Fire. It reads like a firsthand account of the prehistory of every game line, without the pseudo-religious bullshit. Lucifer is the first populist.
I thought that.
I think they were trying to present a number of very different Gehenna scenarios, and shoving Caine in always seemed a bit stupid - he's invincible and vastly more powerful than any of the other characters, even if he is seriously weakened by events. And it kind of made sense - the Antes didn't really care about him, he didn't care about them, so there would be little reason for conflict or even his appearance
He shows up sometimes, but there's no real "showdown" scenario, other than the risible lilith one. A showdown with Caine would be pointless. If you fight Caine, he wins. Nothing, outside of maybe the Wyrm, takes down Caine.
Remember that the end times books are all basically toolkits. They do basically have a chapter on using Caine in any of the scenarios; they just don't make it necessary.
Humorous aside: I think his stats in-game are "You Lose". WoD is very fatalistic.
There is no point about a Caine confrontation, since Caine has no interest in ruling, and cannot be killed. Hell, it is doubtful he could be found.
You could try
That's a bug, I've gotten it. Reload.
Specifically, if I'm remembering this right, there's a whole section of the core book entitled "What happens if the players fight Caine?" and the entire text is
"The players lose."
Yeah, that's what I recall as well. I think the section also says that Caine should be used sparingly, and any plotline that directly involves Caine as a major player is discouraged.
Yeah, the book just states "You lose".
Which I guess is a nice change from the various games where the super-powerful entities that define the setting are just classier fodder.
Refresh my memory on this, but how exactly
I don't think so, it doesn't fit his character. Remember he cursed the Antediluvians, and the modern vampires are just playing the same old games fighting over power and stuff.
I don't think that Caine actually hates his childer. Disappointed, maybe but that's more in part due to their vampiric nature and the "society" in which they are brought up in. And with him being the grand daddy of all vampires he probably still feels some kind of responsibility to them, to try and help curb their impulses, intrigues and infighting to eventually help attain the ultimate cure, Golgotha.
However, eons of direct activity have probably made him weary of taking too active a part in anything, and also being pretty much the most powerful thing on the planet would make any involvement with him not just upset the balance, but downright destroy it. Could also be one of those parenting things where yes daddy could solve everything, but the point is for the child to solve the (problem) by themselves.
I haven't read any of the novels though, so maybe his character is actually different. I'm just going by old manuels, wikipedia and the 10 min conversation in the game.
I was under the impression he hated the 13 (or however many) Antediluvians because they killed his childer, the 2nd Generation, and that's why he cursed them, and left. After that, he didn't have any involvement with vampires, even when they rebuilt Enoch.
There's never any indication he went after Golconda, either, and it's implied he'd be more or less unable to attain it. Besides, Golconda was always Saulot's thing, and Caine never seemed enthusiastic about helping out anyone to transcend the curse
One of the main themes of Vampire, and one that's told to you in the game, is that no matter what you do, somewhere an Elder knew you were going to do, pulled the strings and worked out how to profit from it. You ever wonder who told Jack to take an interest?
Tube said it - the elder vampires are way ahead of you on everything. Someone, somewhere is manipulating you. And most of the other vampires around. Even the anarchs are manipulating you - Jack hardly lets you in on his plans or gives you much of a choice. And there's someone manipulating LaCroix, that Tremere bloke, the Sabbat.
Christ, the Tzimisce think they killed their Antediluvian and are fighting against the Antediluvians and the Jyhad, but Tzimisce's still alive and the elders are calling the shots in the Sabbat
Of course, it's very possible that Caine (or whoever) didn't have an interest in you, but an interest in Los Angeles and getting LaCroix out of the picture.
How about "Nobody escapes the Jyhad. Unless Caine says so."