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Transsexual sues IRS over sex-change operation

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  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    It does seem a bit of a contradiction doesn't it? If 'gender dysphoria' is a mental illness then it should be treated as such - isn't that a bit like the days when doctors claimed homosexuality is a mental illness?

    If it's not an illness, but rather a solution for problems the person has (a mismatch between physical and psychological gender) then it's cosmetic isn't it? Those problems are not the person's fault, but neither would be being born damn ugly and wanting surgery for that.

    I'd be all for the government helping people financially in this situation, but I'm not sure it should just be 'an illness' and then covered under existing tax legislation, because that opens up a can of worms and maybe isn't true.

    poshniallo on
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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    poshniallo wrote: »
    If it's not an illness, but rather a solution for problems the person has (a mismatch between physical and psychological gender) then it's cosmetic isn't it? Those problems are not the person's fault, but neither would be being born damn ugly and wanting surgery for that.

    I see something of a difference between something that fundamental, and many other types of issues people would commonly have cosmetic surgery for. I mean what are we defining as ugly? I would argue that the government should be sponsoring people to have hair-lips repaired, because it's a facial deformity which will give people severe difficulty in interacting with others for the rest of their life.

    I would put gender dysmorphia in roughly the same category.

    electricitylikesme on
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I see something of a difference between something that fundamental, and many other types of issues people would commonly have cosmetic surgery for. I mean what are we defining as ugly? I would argue that the government should be sponsoring people to have hair-lips repaired, because it's a facial deformity which will give people severe difficulty in interacting with others for the rest of their life.

    I would put gender dysmorphia in roughly the same category.
    Hair lips cause more problems, really. It's not strictly cosmetic, at least. The wiki is a bit of a clusterfuck, but it does list some things.

    I'm all for this being paid for by the government, if only because I've read the stories Obo tells in [chat]. It's seriously fucking up her life, so why shouldn't the government help her out a bit? No one else is.

    Aldo on
  • FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2007
    Magus` wrote: »
    I've always been under the guise that if the random mishmash of DNA that created you turned you into a homosexual or whatever this was called again, well that's just the luck of the draw and you should be accepted as is.

    It's not like being gay or inner-other-gender is harmful to other people. I guess people just need something or someone to hate nowadays.

    it's not really homosexuality, it's more of a man being born into a woman's body and vice versa.

    FyreWulff on
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Aldo wrote: »
    I see something of a difference between something that fundamental, and many other types of issues people would commonly have cosmetic surgery for. I mean what are we defining as ugly? I would argue that the government should be sponsoring people to have hair-lips repaired, because it's a facial deformity which will give people severe difficulty in interacting with others for the rest of their life.

    I would put gender dysmorphia in roughly the same category.
    Hair lips cause more problems, really. It's not strictly cosmetic, at least. The wiki is a bit of a clusterfuck, but it does list some things.

    I'm all for this being paid for by the government, if only because I've read the stories Obo tells in [chat]. It's seriously fucking up her life, so why shouldn't the government help her out a bit? No one else is.
    Well the thing is, I'm trying to think of some truly borderline procedures here and I'm just not coming up with any. At least in Australia our health system is kind of in order if slow, so you can get a fuckload of stuff done under Medicare.

    I mean, I don't think there are any "cosmetic" procedures which are really serious enough to warrant being paid for by the government or which have the associated statistical improvement in life outcomes for the people to justify it.

    electricitylikesme on
  • mugginnsmugginns Jawsome Fresh CoastRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    What are the statistics of number of men wanting this kind of surgery vs number of women?

    mugginns on
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  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Actually there's an issue documented in various medical journals about how a lot of people on antidepressants have a tendency to become non-compliant (with respect to taking the drugs) because outside of people killing themselves they tend to think there's something stoic about being depressed but still struggling on and take inspiration from the various artists who were depressed and yet produced X,Y,Z great historical works.

    It's somewhat, but not quite, like those pro-anorexia support sites.


    In my experience the non-compliance comes more from the side-effects of anti-depressants (there are MANY) and also not feeling like one's self after a while.

    I think this would apply to the gay pill scenario as well.

    Derrick on
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  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Yeah just so people know this procedure can hardly be called a 'cure'. As someone else said these people are often still very confused about their identity.

    DodgeBlan on
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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah just so people know this procedure can hardly be called a 'cure'. As someone else said these people are often still very confused about their identity.

    Uh, statistically they're happier and kill themselves less.

    electricitylikesme on
  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    mugginns wrote: »
    What are the statistics of number of men wanting this kind of surgery vs number of women?

    I'm almost certain it's larger number of men to women then the other way round by a ratio of three to one. Though the statistics are pretty poor.

    Leitner on
  • mugginnsmugginns Jawsome Fresh CoastRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah just so people know this procedure can hardly be called a 'cure'. As someone else said these people are often still very confused about their identity.

    Uh, statistically they're happier and kill themselves less.

    Statistically people who get nosejobs are happier about their looks, should that get paid for?

    mugginns on
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  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I would say it's cosmetic. Normal health treatment restores you to a normal working state. A sex change is not a restoration process, it is a change to something new. So she should give that money back to the IRS.

    mastman on
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  • kaz67kaz67 Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    mugginns wrote: »
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah just so people know this procedure can hardly be called a 'cure'. As someone else said these people are often still very confused about their identity.

    Uh, statistically they're happier and kill themselves less.

    Statistically people who get nosejobs are happier about their looks, should that get paid for?

    Are people with ugly noses pron to commit suicide or indulge in self destructive behavior?

    kaz67 on
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    kaz67 wrote: »
    mugginns wrote: »
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah just so people know this procedure can hardly be called a 'cure'. As someone else said these people are often still very confused about their identity.

    Uh, statistically they're happier and kill themselves less.

    Statistically people who get nosejobs are happier about their looks, should that get paid for?

    Are people with ugly noses pron to commit suicide or indulge in self destructive behavior?

    I have no idea what the statistics are. I don't really know much about this issue. All I know is that there are two groups. The group who actually strongly identifies with the other gender (for them its good) and then there are the people who just have a poor gender identity (for them it is bad). Some actually get switched back.

    Also regardless of whether this surgery is good or bad, it surely is by definition cosmetic?
    Gender is cosmetic, chemical, social, genital and reproductive. This procedure only changes the person cosmetic, so by definition it is cosmetic.

    DodgeBlan on
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  • GorakGorak Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    kaz67 wrote: »
    mugginns wrote: »
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah just so people know this procedure can hardly be called a 'cure'. As someone else said these people are often still very confused about their identity.

    Uh, statistically they're happier and kill themselves less.

    Statistically people who get nosejobs are happier about their looks, should that get paid for?

    Are people with ugly noses pron to commit suicide or indulge in self destructive behavior?

    I don't imagine that 12 years of having the piss taken out of you for being ugly will pass by without notice.

    Gorak on
  • mugginnsmugginns Jawsome Fresh CoastRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    kaz67 wrote: »
    mugginns wrote: »
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah just so people know this procedure can hardly be called a 'cure'. As someone else said these people are often still very confused about their identity.

    Uh, statistically they're happier and kill themselves less.

    Statistically people who get nosejobs are happier about their looks, should that get paid for?

    Are people with ugly noses pron to commit suicide or indulge in self destructive behavior?

    Sure

    mugginns on
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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    mugginns wrote: »
    kaz67 wrote: »
    mugginns wrote: »
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah just so people know this procedure can hardly be called a 'cure'. As someone else said these people are often still very confused about their identity.

    Uh, statistically they're happier and kill themselves less.

    Statistically people who get nosejobs are happier about their looks, should that get paid for?

    Are people with ugly noses pron to commit suicide or indulge in self destructive behavior?

    Sure
    No they're not you colossal retard and you haven't a single number to back this up. People who have elective cosmetic surgery like facelifts, nosejobs and liposuction are usually no happier about themselves hence why they come back again and again and again.

    And ironically, yes, I would support nosejobs for specific types of issues - for example my aunt has an issue where supporting tissue in her nose collapsed, giving it a rather odd appearance. If this was causing her psychological anguish then I would say that the most productive thing for the state to do is pay for the appropriate reconstructive surgery since happy people are productive people - as it stands she's fine though.

    Are people who want sex changes not undergoing some type of mental anguish as a result of their condition?

    electricitylikesme on
  • mugginnsmugginns Jawsome Fresh CoastRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    mugginns wrote: »
    kaz67 wrote: »
    mugginns wrote: »
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    Yeah just so people know this procedure can hardly be called a 'cure'. As someone else said these people are often still very confused about their identity.

    Uh, statistically they're happier and kill themselves less.

    Statistically people who get nosejobs are happier about their looks, should that get paid for?

    Are people with ugly noses pron to commit suicide or indulge in self destructive behavior?

    Sure
    No they're not you colossal retard and you haven't a single number to back this up.
    You make your point so eloquently. Kudos to you.
    Are people who want sex changes not undergoing some type of mental anguish as a result of their condition?

    Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I'm sure the guy with a pencildick undergoes just as much mental anguish, or the guy who weighs 325 pounds.

    mugginns on
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  • kaz67kaz67 Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Equating gender reassignment surgery to a purely cosmetic operation such as a nose job just seems ridiculous to me. I know there are cases of people having these procedures reversed but at the same time I know its not unheard of for more conventional medicine to fail when treating some patients, so I don't consider that a valid argument.

    kaz67 on
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    You can't have medical services paying for stuff simply because of 'mental anguish'. I bet they probably already do, but its too easily exploited.

    DodgeBlan on
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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    You can't have medical services paying for stuff simply because of 'mental anguish'. I bet they probably already do, but its too easily exploited.

    YES! BECAUSE CLEARLY HAVING ONES GENITALS RECONSTRUCTED, UNDERGOING 6 MONTHS OF HORMONE THERAPY AND COMMITTING TO A LIFETIME OF CONTINUED HORMONE TREATMENTS AS WELL AS AN EXTENSIVE RECOVERY PERIOD IS SOMETHING GUYS WILL JUST BE LINING UP TO GET DONE BECAUSE MAN FUCK TRYING TO ATTRACT WOMEN IF YOU CAN JUST GET YOUR OWN VAGINA.

    electricitylikesme on
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    OKAY BUT I WAS COMMENTING ON YOUR NOSE EXAMPLE

    DodgeBlan on
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  • mugginnsmugginns Jawsome Fresh CoastRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Yessssssssss, it is only page 3 and someone is already trying to e-shoutdown someone else

    mugginns on
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  • ZalbinionZalbinion Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    mugginns wrote: »
    Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I'm sure the guy with a pencildick undergoes just as much mental anguish, or the guy who weighs 325 pounds.

    If "the guy with a pencildick undergoes just as much mental anguish" as someone willing to undergo radical surgery to completely remake their bodies to match their mental gender identification, then I'm sure every single mental health professional in the country would agree that said "guy with a pencildick" deserves to have his surgery tax-exempt.

    Zalbinion on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    mugginns wrote: »
    Yessssssssss, it is only page 3 and someone is already trying to e-shoutdown someone else
    Well, statistics have been given for the number of people commiting suicide because of issues with their gender identity. Perhaps you could give the equivalent for your nose job theory?

    Quid on
  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    mugginns wrote: »
    Yessssssssss, it is only page 3 and someone is already trying to e-shoutdown someone else

    won't someone think of the shift button D:

    mastman on
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  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    my only point was that the surgery is technically cosmetic.

    DodgeBlan on
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  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    my only point was that the surgery is technically cosmetic.
    Inverting a penis and crafting a labia out of it is a bit more than cosmetic. To say nothing of the hormone therapy.

    Edit: And regardless of whether you think that's cosmetic or not there's still the fact that a large number of people with this issue are killing themselves over it.

    Quid on
  • ZalbinionZalbinion Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    my only point was that the surgery is technically cosmetic.

    Is there a term for "surgery required for mental health (but not neurology) reasons"? Because I think it should fall under that heading.

    Zalbinion on
  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Here's the pertinant question:

    1) Is the psychotherapy and counseling for gender dysphoria covered by insurance / tax exempt?

    If 1 = true, then any recommended treatments by said medical professionals such as sexual realignment should then be covered.

    Gnome-Interruptus on
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  • mugginnsmugginns Jawsome Fresh CoastRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Quid wrote: »
    mugginns wrote: »
    Yessssssssss, it is only page 3 and someone is already trying to e-shoutdown someone else
    Well, statistics have been given for the number of people commiting suicide because of issues with their gender identity. Perhaps you could give the equivalent for your nose job theory?

    I missed those stats. Stats don't really matter to me in things like this because to me its mostly psychobabble with spin included. It is all about quality of life, and I don't believe the government should pay for any quality of life medical procedures. People committing suicide isn't "life-threatening" to me, it is people failing to deal with their issues.
    If "the guy with a pencildick undergoes just as much mental anguish" as someone willing to undergo radical surgery to completely remake their bodies to match their mental gender identification, then I'm sure every single mental health professional in the country would agree that said "guy with a pencildick" deserves to have his surgery tax-exempt.

    Awesome, what about lipo

    mugginns on
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  • mastmanmastman Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    offtopic, I came home reaaally late one night a few years ago from the bar pretty damned drunk and ended up finding myself on discovery health channel... during a male -> female trans-configuration. They used pieces of the colon for the vag, and after they made the vag, they showed it on tv. They had it all zoomed in and I was like "wtf is that... OH SHIT, that's a man-vag" almost threw up.

    mastman on
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  • ZalbinionZalbinion Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    mugginns wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    mugginns wrote: »
    Yessssssssss, it is only page 3 and someone is already trying to e-shoutdown someone else
    Well, statistics have been given for the number of people commiting suicide because of issues with their gender identity. Perhaps you could give the equivalent for your nose job theory?

    I missed those stats. Stats don't really matter to me in things like this because to me its mostly psychobabble with spin included. It is all about quality of life, and I don't believe the government should pay for any quality of life medical procedures. People committing suicide isn't "life-threatening" to me, it is people failing to deal with their issues.

    Good to know you have such a low opinion of MDs. I, personally, don't presume to know so much about mental health medicine or other people's lives, so I try not to tell them how to live, but that's just me.
    mugginns wrote: »
    If "the guy with a pencildick undergoes just as much mental anguish" as someone willing to undergo radical surgery to completely remake their bodies to match their mental gender identification, then I'm sure every single mental health professional in the country would agree that said "guy with a pencildick" deserves to have his surgery tax-exempt.

    Awesome, what about lipo

    Well, obviously if someone was depressed to the point of suicide and that clinical depression was verified by a certified mental health professional, then yes, liposuction should also be tax-exempt.

    Also, mugginns: note that we're using the terms "tax-exempt," not "government pays for it." It seems to me that gender assignment is at least as important as paying for your kid's college bills.

    Zalbinion on
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I don't understand why transgender people are willing to sacrifice sexual stimulation for the appearance of the other gender? Surely it would be better to appear a woman/man, yet keep the bits that can actually be used?

    DodgeBlan on
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  • ZalbinionZalbinion Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    I don't understand why transgender people are willing to sacrifice sexual stimulation for the appearance of the other gender? Surely it would be better to appear a woman/man, yet keep the bits that can actually be used?

    Are they necessarily sacrificing sexual sensation? I always assumed that stuff was just rearranged and the nerves were kept intact. (E.g., penis becomes clitoris.)

    ...And that's another reminder of how important gender identity is to the lives of transgender people, that they really are willing to undergo painful, expensive surgery to "fix" themselves.

    Zalbinion on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    mugginns wrote: »
    I missed those stats. Stats don't really matter to me in things like this because to me its mostly psychobabble with spin included. It is all about quality of life, and I don't believe the government should pay for any quality of life medical procedures. People committing suicide isn't "life-threatening" to me, it is people failing to deal with their issues.
    So basically your stance is you don't care what others can demonstrate. And people killing themselves is bad for you because if you haven't noticed it's hard to fill jobs with corpses. Hence why other mental problems that lead to depression are covered by the government.

    Quid on
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The wiki article is abit hazy, but im pretty sure the new genital is purely cosmetic. I don't think it has any sensation.

    DodgeBlan on
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  • Magus`Magus` The fun has been DOUBLED! Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    Magus` wrote: »
    I've always been under the guise that if the random mishmash of DNA that created you turned you into a homosexual or whatever this was called again, well that's just the luck of the draw and you should be accepted as is.

    It's not like being gay or inner-other-gender is harmful to other people. I guess people just need something or someone to hate nowadays.

    it's not really homosexuality, it's more of a man being born into a woman's body and vice versa.

    I wasn't equating the two. I was contrasting.

    Magus` on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    DodgeBlan wrote: »
    I don't understand why transgender people are willing to sacrifice sexual stimulation for the appearance of the other gender? Surely it would be better to appear a woman/man, yet keep the bits that can actually be used?
    Er, it all still works down there. Just differently.

    Edit: As in there's still sensation and it's not just cosmetic.

    Quid on
  • DodgeBlanDodgeBlan PSN: dodgeblanRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Oh okay. Well if thats the case I retract my previous statements.

    DodgeBlan on
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