Moment of the Week - Oct. 10th

124

Posts

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Shadowen wrote: »
    What pissed me off about the scene
    was Tigra getting chumped so very, very hard. And that shrieking of "Aiee!" What the fuck was that about?

    Tigra is a combat veteran who can lift five tons, can run at highway speeds, has superhuman stamina and toughness, has the agiliity, and reflexes of, well, a hunting cat, and a goddamn healing factor, though not one as advanced as Wolverine's. Batman, the king of "prep time!" plot armor, would be hard-pressed to take her down on his first try. A third-rater like Hood shouldn't have been able to take her, period.

    And yes, I noticed she was kneecapped. She's fought through worse. My general rule of thumb is, if it wouldn't put Batman or Punisher down for the count, it shouldn't put anyone with superhuman endurance and/or a healing factor, like Tigra, down. And anyone who knows anything knows that those two won't stop for anything short of catastrophic blood loss due to a crocodile biting their hand off at the shoulder.

    Oh, her mom was threatened? Well that changes everyth wait no it doesn't she'd tear him to shreds. If Spider-Man, the easiest-going hero in Marvel, were stripped to his underwear, had his kneecap shot, had his face ground in glass, listened to Aunt May getting threatened, and in response just sat or lay there crying like a big baby, it would be rightfully assailed by the fans as being a ricockulous out-of-character bullshit moment. Hell, if the storyline didn't result in Spidey being brought up on aggravated assault charges at the least because of the brutality his response, it would be rightfully assailed by the fans as being a ricockulous out-of-character bullshit moment. And that's Spider-Man.

    Tigra has a temper.

    That it is patently ridiculous both in and out of context makes it a horrifically stupid idea. That you would only ever see a moment like this applied to a female character (...okay, maybe Speedball/Penance) makes it sexist.
    Not to mention the fact that this is incredibly stupid, because one phone call, and a SHIELD team are protecting mama Tigra 24/7 and the whole Initiative squishes the Red Hood like the bug he is.

    Also, I acknowledge that this is an art matter, rather than an "in universe" matter, but part of the problem is that, in every panel, her breasts are basically the focal point.

    Fencingsax on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    Shadowen wrote: »
    What pissed me off about the scene
    was Tigra getting chumped so very, very hard. And that shrieking of "Aiee!" What the fuck was that about?

    Tigra is a combat veteran who can lift five tons, can run at highway speeds, has superhuman stamina and toughness, has the agiliity, and reflexes of, well, a hunting cat, and a goddamn healing factor, though not one as advanced as Wolverine's. Batman, the king of "prep time!" plot armor, would be hard-pressed to take her down on his first try. A third-rater like Hood shouldn't have been able to take her, period.

    And yes, I noticed she was kneecapped. She's fought through worse. My general rule of thumb is, if it wouldn't put Batman or Punisher down for the count, it shouldn't put anyone with superhuman endurance and/or a healing factor, like Tigra, down. And anyone who knows anything knows that those two won't stop for anything short of catastrophic blood loss due to a crocodile biting their hand off at the shoulder.

    Oh, her mom was threatened? Well that changes everyth wait no it doesn't she'd tear him to shreds. If Spider-Man, the easiest-going hero in Marvel, were stripped to his underwear, had his kneecap shot, had his face ground in glass, listened to Aunt May getting threatened, and in response just sat or lay there crying like a big baby, it would be rightfully assailed by the fans as being a ricockulous out-of-character bullshit moment. Hell, if the storyline didn't result in Spidey being brought up on aggravated assault charges at the least because of the brutality his response, it would be rightfully assailed by the fans as being a ricockulous out-of-character bullshit moment. And that's Spider-Man.

    Tigra has a temper.

    That it is patently ridiculous both in and out of context makes it a horrifically stupid idea. That you would only ever see a moment like this applied to a female character (...okay, maybe Speedball/Penance) makes it sexist.
    Are you kidding me?

    Getting shot in the fucking kneecap puts you down.

    I personally think people are looking way too far into this. It's a fucking fictional story.

    This is fast becoming Marvel's Identity Crisis.

    Except there is a good story behind it.
    No, it wouldn't, not in this context. Especially with healing factor and super endurance and so on. Also, there's been one issue, and the Red Hood has already made a worse decision call than Jean Loring ever did.

    Fencingsax on
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  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Shadowen wrote: »
    What pissed me off about the scene
    was Tigra getting chumped so very, very hard. And that shrieking of "Aiee!" What the fuck was that about?

    Tigra is a combat veteran who can lift five tons, can run at highway speeds, has superhuman stamina and toughness, has the agiliity, and reflexes of, well, a hunting cat, and a goddamn healing factor, though not one as advanced as Wolverine's. Batman, the king of "prep time!" plot armor, would be hard-pressed to take her down on his first try. A third-rater like Hood shouldn't have been able to take her, period.

    And yes, I noticed she was kneecapped. She's fought through worse. My general rule of thumb is, if it wouldn't put Batman or Punisher down for the count, it shouldn't put anyone with superhuman endurance and/or a healing factor, like Tigra, down. And anyone who knows anything knows that those two won't stop for anything short of catastrophic blood loss due to a crocodile biting their hand off at the shoulder.

    Oh, her mom was threatened? Well that changes everyth wait no it doesn't she'd tear him to shreds. If Spider-Man, the easiest-going hero in Marvel, were stripped to his underwear, had his kneecap shot, had his face ground in glass, listened to Aunt May getting threatened, and in response just sat or lay there crying like a big baby, it would be rightfully assailed by the fans as being a ricockulous out-of-character bullshit moment. Hell, if the storyline didn't result in Spidey being brought up on aggravated assault charges at the least because of the brutality his response, it would be rightfully assailed by the fans as being a ricockulous out-of-character bullshit moment. And that's Spider-Man.

    Tigra has a temper.

    That it is patently ridiculous both in and out of context makes it a horrifically stupid idea. That you would only ever see a moment like this applied to a female character (...okay, maybe Speedball/Penance) makes it sexist.
    Not to mention the fact that this is incredibly stupid, because one phone call, and a SHIELD team are protecting mama Tigra 24/7 and the whole Initiative squishes the Red Hood like the bug he is.

    Also, I acknowledge that this is an art matter, rather than an "in universe" matter, but part of the problem is that, in every panel, her breasts are basically the focal point.
    Ok so Tigra's mom in under expensive Shield protection.

    Because Tony Stark has done such a good job of providing for the families of Initiative members so far.

    Even then, The initiative is just going to find The Hood? No one knows who the fuck he is. No one knows about any of these villians because up until now they have been such a minor threat.

    Sars_Boy on
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited October 2007
    Hank Pym knows The Hood's real name.

    Hooraydiation on
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Shadowen wrote: »
    What pissed me off about the scene
    was Tigra getting chumped so very, very hard. And that shrieking of "Aiee!" What the fuck was that about?

    Tigra is a combat veteran who can lift five tons, can run at highway speeds, has superhuman stamina and toughness, has the agiliity, and reflexes of, well, a hunting cat, and a goddamn healing factor, though not one as advanced as Wolverine's. Batman, the king of "prep time!" plot armor, would be hard-pressed to take her down on his first try. A third-rater like Hood shouldn't have been able to take her, period.

    And yes, I noticed she was kneecapped. She's fought through worse. My general rule of thumb is, if it wouldn't put Batman or Punisher down for the count, it shouldn't put anyone with superhuman endurance and/or a healing factor, like Tigra, down. And anyone who knows anything knows that those two won't stop for anything short of catastrophic blood loss due to a crocodile biting their hand off at the shoulder.

    Oh, her mom was threatened? Well that changes everyth wait no it doesn't she'd tear him to shreds. If Spider-Man, the easiest-going hero in Marvel, were stripped to his underwear, had his kneecap shot, had his face ground in glass, listened to Aunt May getting threatened, and in response just sat or lay there crying like a big baby, it would be rightfully assailed by the fans as being a ricockulous out-of-character bullshit moment. Hell, if the storyline didn't result in Spidey being brought up on aggravated assault charges at the least because of the brutality his response, it would be rightfully assailed by the fans as being a ricockulous out-of-character bullshit moment. And that's Spider-Man.

    Tigra has a temper.

    That it is patently ridiculous both in and out of context makes it a horrifically stupid idea. That you would only ever see a moment like this applied to a female character (...okay, maybe Speedball/Penance) makes it sexist.
    Not to mention the fact that this is incredibly stupid, because one phone call, and a SHIELD team are protecting mama Tigra 24/7 and the whole Initiative squishes the Red Hood like the bug he is.

    Also, I acknowledge that this is an art matter, rather than an "in universe" matter, but part of the problem is that, in every panel, her breasts are basically the focal point.
    Ok so Tigra's mom in under expensive Shield protection.

    Because Tony Stark has done such a good job of providing for the families of Initiative members so far.

    Even then, The initiative is just going to find The Hood? No one knows who the fuck he is. No one knows about any of these villians because up until now they have been such a minor threat.
    Well, they just assaulted an Avenger, and quite seriously stated that their goals were to infiltrate the Initiative and SHIELD. I'd say that's a serious threat, and when you have the raw manpower and resources Stark has at his disposal (and, by the way, no one under his explicit protection has died.) it would be quite easy to track the bastard. Or one of his compatriots. Hells, he can find the damn camera that was used to film the attack, if he really wanted to.

    Of course, the way it will go is that Tigra will say nothing. Because the only way for this narrative to progress in such a way as to make the Red Hood a serious threat is to make Tigra do something dumb and out of character, yet again. I don't even like Tigra all that much.

    Fencingsax on
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  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Shadowen wrote: »
    What pissed me off about the scene
    was Tigra getting chumped so very, very hard. And that shrieking of "Aiee!" What the fuck was that about?

    Tigra is a combat veteran who can lift five tons, can run at highway speeds, has superhuman stamina and toughness, has the agiliity, and reflexes of, well, a hunting cat, and a goddamn healing factor, though not one as advanced as Wolverine's. Batman, the king of "prep time!" plot armor, would be hard-pressed to take her down on his first try. A third-rater like Hood shouldn't have been able to take her, period.

    And yes, I noticed she was kneecapped. She's fought through worse. My general rule of thumb is, if it wouldn't put Batman or Punisher down for the count, it shouldn't put anyone with superhuman endurance and/or a healing factor, like Tigra, down. And anyone who knows anything knows that those two won't stop for anything short of catastrophic blood loss due to a crocodile biting their hand off at the shoulder.

    Oh, her mom was threatened? Well that changes everyth wait no it doesn't she'd tear him to shreds. If Spider-Man, the easiest-going hero in Marvel, were stripped to his underwear, had his kneecap shot, had his face ground in glass, listened to Aunt May getting threatened, and in response just sat or lay there crying like a big baby, it would be rightfully assailed by the fans as being a ricockulous out-of-character bullshit moment. Hell, if the storyline didn't result in Spidey being brought up on aggravated assault charges at the least because of the brutality his response, it would be rightfully assailed by the fans as being a ricockulous out-of-character bullshit moment. And that's Spider-Man.

    Tigra has a temper.

    That it is patently ridiculous both in and out of context makes it a horrifically stupid idea. That you would only ever see a moment like this applied to a female character (...okay, maybe Speedball/Penance) makes it sexist.
    Not to mention the fact that this is incredibly stupid, because one phone call, and a SHIELD team are protecting mama Tigra 24/7 and the whole Initiative squishes the Red Hood like the bug he is.

    Also, I acknowledge that this is an art matter, rather than an "in universe" matter, but part of the problem is that, in every panel, her breasts are basically the focal point.
    Ok so Tigra's mom in under expensive Shield protection.

    Because Tony Stark has done such a good job of providing for the families of Initiative members so far.

    Even then, The initiative is just going to find The Hood? No one knows who the fuck he is. No one knows about any of these villians because up until now they have been such a minor threat.

    Iron Man. Can communicate. Mentally. With spy satellites. He would have had the Hood, based on Tigra's description of his outfit and scent, digitized and in goddamn Interpol's database inside an hour, never mind the Initiative. Hell, if he called in a few favors he might be able to get Xavier to read Tigra's mind and put the image into Tony's mind, who could then transfer it to a computer to be broken down into a composite of what his facial structure is like underneath the hood.

    It sounds ridiculous, and with our technology it is, but Iron Man. Can communicate. Mentally. With spy satellites. He is the head of SHIELD. If he has a vague idea of who he's looking for and a general search area, he has everything he needs to find you.

    I'm not saying this is a good thing with what it means for Marvel U. I'm saying that if it weren't for the world-shattering events coming fast and furious I'd be surprised if Hood were still a free man, because Tony would have worked his way down to the street scum the Punisher usually preys on by now. Tigra would have brought Jigsaw down with a full squad of SHIELD agents backing her up.

    And to Fencingsax, on your other point: don't you know that women usually wear black bras under white shirts, and that a punch to the face usually tears a blouse open? I mean, duh.

    Shadowen on
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    See this is the point in comics where suspension of disbelief is totally necessary.

    There are thousands of arguments just like this one. Sure Stark could probably find them easily, but guess what? He won't.

    Know why?

    Because it's a comic book story. Its plot was not made with fans of Tigra in mind.

    If you don't like it, just don't read it.

    Sars_Boy on
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    See this is the point in comics where suspension of disbelief is totally necessary.

    There are thousands of arguments just like this one. Sure Stark could probably find them easily, but guess what? He won't.

    Know why?

    Because it's a comic book story. It's plot was not made with fans of Tigra in mind.

    If you don't like it, just don't read it.

    Dude, I won't be.

    But "Realism? BAAAWWW comic books!" is about the dumbest argument ever. This isn't about versimilitude. We're discussing a guy in a hood, calling himself The Hood, who can turn invisible by holding his breath beating up a woman who goes out fighting crime when mystically transformed into a furry while wearing a leather bikini.

    This is about good writing and bad writing. And this? Is bad fuckin' writing.

    Now, I think I...we...have diverted the topic long enough.

    ...so. How about that Atomic Robo?

    Shadowen on
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited October 2007
    Suspension of disbelief is usually demanded when a story fails to hold up against conventional logic, not the logic of its own universe. When the latter occurs, it's called inconsistency.

    If Marvel Comics puts out a story that doesn't make sense according to rules Marvel Comics itself laid down, then they've made a mistake.

    Hooraydiation on
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  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    See this is the point in comics where suspension of disbelief is totally necessary.

    There are thousands of arguments just like this one. Sure Stark could probably find them easily, but guess what? He won't.

    Know why?

    Because it's a comic book story. It's plot was not made with fans of Tigra in mind.

    If you don't like it, just don't read it.

    Dude, I won't be.

    But "Realism? BAAAWWW comic books!" is about the dumbest argument ever. This isn't about versimilitude. We're discussing a guy in a hood, calling himself The Hood, who can turn invisible by holding his breath beating up a woman who goes out fighting crime when mystically transformed into a furry while wearing a leather bikini.

    This is about good writing and bad writing. And this? Is bad fuckin' writing.
    This is were we disagree

    oh well

    Sars_Boy on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    On another note, could you stop it with the one sentence paragraphs?

    Fencingsax on
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  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    oh that's just how I space things

    they're not really paragraphs either

    Sars_Boy on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    No, I noticed that.

    Fencingsax on
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  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I'm suddenly starting to sympathize with Karma.

    On that note: :roll:

    Sars_Boy on
  • WhippyWhippy Moderator, Admin Emeritus Admin Emeritus
    edited October 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    On another note, could you stop it with the one sentence paragraphs?

    hahahahahahahahahahahaha

    Whippy on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    See this is the point in comics where suspension of disbelief is totally necessary.

    There are thousands of arguments just like this one. Sure Stark could probably find them easily, but guess what? He won't.

    Know why?

    Because it's a comic book story. It's plot was not made with fans of Tigra in mind.

    If you don't like it, just don't read it.

    Dude, I won't be.

    But "Realism? BAAAWWW comic books!" is about the dumbest argument ever. This isn't about versimilitude. We're discussing a guy in a hood, calling himself The Hood, who can turn invisible by holding his breath beating up a woman who goes out fighting crime when mystically transformed into a furry while wearing a leather bikini.

    This is about good writing and bad writing. And this? Is bad fuckin' writing.

    Now, I think I...we...have diverted the topic long enough.

    ...so. How about that Atomic Robo?

    You know there could also be things about The Hood's powers that we don't know about. Or their could be safeguards in place.
    Shame on Bendis for not telling us everything in a revealing soliloquy by The Watcher.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    was there a hole in tigra's pants

    Garlic Bread on
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited October 2007
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    See this is the point in comics where suspension of disbelief is totally necessary.

    There are thousands of arguments just like this one. Sure Stark could probably find them easily, but guess what? He won't.

    Know why?

    Because it's a comic book story. It's plot was not made with fans of Tigra in mind.

    If you don't like it, just don't read it.

    Dude, I won't be.

    But "Realism? BAAAWWW comic books!" is about the dumbest argument ever. This isn't about versimilitude. We're discussing a guy in a hood, calling himself The Hood, who can turn invisible by holding his breath beating up a woman who goes out fighting crime when mystically transformed into a furry while wearing a leather bikini.

    This is about good writing and bad writing. And this? Is bad fuckin' writing.

    Now, I think I...we...have diverted the topic long enough.

    ...so. How about that Atomic Robo?

    You know there could also be things about The Hood's powers that we don't know about. Or their could be safeguards in place.
    Shame on Bendis for not telling us everything in a revealing soliloquy by The Watcher.

    How is, "He has powers we don't even know about and didn't even see!" any different from, "A wizard did it!"

    Hooraydiation on
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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    See this is the point in comics where suspension of disbelief is totally necessary.

    There are thousands of arguments just like this one. Sure Stark could probably find them easily, but guess what? He won't.

    Know why?

    Because it's a comic book story. It's plot was not made with fans of Tigra in mind.

    If you don't like it, just don't read it.

    Dude, I won't be.

    But "Realism? BAAAWWW comic books!" is about the dumbest argument ever. This isn't about versimilitude. We're discussing a guy in a hood, calling himself The Hood, who can turn invisible by holding his breath beating up a woman who goes out fighting crime when mystically transformed into a furry while wearing a leather bikini.

    This is about good writing and bad writing. And this? Is bad fuckin' writing.

    Now, I think I...we...have diverted the topic long enough.

    ...so. How about that Atomic Robo?

    You know there could also be things about The Hood's powers that we don't know about. Or their could be safeguards in place.
    Shame on Bendis for not telling us everything in a revealing soliloquy by The Watcher.

    How is, "He has powers we don't even know about and didn't even see!" any different from, "A wizard did it!"

    They've hinted that his demon side is becoming more powerful so it's not like it's coming out of nowhere. I don't see how that even remotely equates to "A wizard did it".

    Also, is it so hard to believe that The Hood might be X amount stronger/better than Tigra? So she's been around a long time and used to be an Avenger, so what? It's nice to see the narrative of the Marvel universe moving forward for a change. The Hood has a ton of potential and having a new player on the field sure beats "The Kingpin/Apocolypse/Norman Osborne/Red Skull/MODOK/Hydra did it.".

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Agreed, but using Tigra in a role worryingly close to 'generic punching bag for the MU' may not have been the best way to do it.

    Wildcat on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Why the fuck does everybody suddenly give a shit about TIGRA?!

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Why the fuck does everybody suddenly give a shit about TIGRA?!
    I honestly don't care so much that it was Tigra as much as the violence seemed overly sexualized (obviously not everyone agrees with me), and the whole premise of The Hood attacking is based on Tigra not telling anyone, which is terrible storytelling.

    Edit: The fact that she's basically been a target for several recent storylines doesn't help, however.

    Fencingsax on
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  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Plus it happens to the character very close to the Puppet Master arc on Ms Marvel, which perhaps amplifies people's perceptions of how Marvel is treating her.

    Oh yeah, the link I was reading earlier - the Fortress of Fortitude.

    Wildcat on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Why the fuck does everybody suddenly give a shit about TIGRA?!

    She's been an Avenger for like, ever, has been involved in most Earth-shattering events in the Marvel Universe through her association with the Avengers, and she's been appearing a lot lately. She's not really a bad character, and someone over on scans_daily did a series of, "Look, she's pretty cool huh?" scans of her appearances to show she's not just worthless cheesecake. I'm not really a huge fan or anything, but she used to be in West Coast Avengers, which I'm pretty fond of.

    This is also one of the few times I disagree with Sars Boy, because goddamn I found that scene retarded, for all the reasons Shadowen mentioned. Having a woman scream, "Aieee!" (an "Arrgh!" "Hnnf!" "Graah!" would have changed the tone of that scene) as she gets pistol whipped and made completely defenseless as another voyeuristic villain videotapes the whole thing just struck me the wrong way. If it had been a less experienced heroine, someone who wasn't used to taking a punch, or even if she'd just gotten a swing or two in, it wouldn't have left such a bad taste in my mouth. Now who knows, maybe it'll eventually be revealed that the Hood's become strong enough to actually slap Tigra around like that, but right now it just looks like bad writing. Every character's someone's favorite, and to have a long-established hero utterly job to a relatively new villain (who up until this point hasn't been shown to be nearly this competent) is just lame. And I say this as someone who really likes Bendis.

    Munch on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Look though guys, we know The Hood is being set up to become a major player. That scene with Tigra was clearly meant to show us that The Hood is one seriously scary bad-ass mother fucker. He basically did the same thing to Wolverine (arguably he did something worse) but it simply does not resonate with the readers since there's really no way for us to ever view Wolverine as a victim -- enter Tigra.

    Tigra was used for a number of reasons. First off, she's under used and as such fair game for this sort of thing. Secondly, she's recognizable. Third, she's far enough off the radar that I guy like The Hood could conceivably pose a threat to her well-being and those of the people around her. Sure, she's a registered hero but we all know there's a "clique" in the MU where some heroes get better treatment than others. Also, and this is pure speculation, this event (and a number of others) is setting the stage for some real development with Tigra. As stated above, she's been a part of some major storylines recently so they clearly plan on doing something with her.

    Now, as to the brutality of what happened, I think that was 100% necessary. The Hood (and Bendis) was making a point/sending a clear message that these guys mean business. As of the time I read that issue I looked at all of those villains as jokes. Seeing them laugh as they voyeuristically watched a hero get mercilessly shit-kicked was fucking DISTURBING and went a long way towards changing my impression of these guys from bumbling retards to "these guys are fucking evil".

    I admit, Bendis was likely playing on people's own misconception that "women are weak" but it definitely worked and, I think, got the literary point across quite clearly.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Plus, hasn't Bendis said he dislikes Tigra? Edit: I don't know if he has, but I had read somewhere that he stated this, so I'm trying to track down any original quotes. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

    Wildcat on
  • IrohIroh Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I guess I'll chime in and say I didn't find anything offensive about NA #35. The only reason it could be construed as "overly sexualized" is because it involved a scantily-clad woman. Guess what? That's her costume. It's not like this whole thing was made up to be that way. I'm pretty sure she was chosen because she's a reservist for the Mighty Avengers (which helps avoid timeline problems by using one of the regularly featured members) and because she's the only one of them that is really within the Hood's power to defeat on his own. Granted, he had to set a trap to make it work that way, but it's not out of the question.

    I admit, Jigsaw filming the beating was a little creepy, but I'm withholding judgment until I see where it goes next month.

    Iroh on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Munch wrote: »
    Why the fuck does everybody suddenly give a shit about TIGRA?!

    She's been an Avenger for like, ever, has been involved in most Earth-shattering events in the Marvel Universe through her association with the Avengers, and she's been appearing a lot lately. She's not really a bad character, and someone over on scans_daily did a series of, "Look, she's pretty cool huh?" scans of her appearances to show she's not just worthless cheesecake. I'm not really a huge fan or anything, but she used to be in West Coast Avengers, which I'm pretty fond of.

    This is also one of the few times I disagree with Sars Boy, because goddamn I found that scene retarded, for all the reasons Shadowen mentioned. Having a woman scream, "Aieee!" (an "Arrgh!" "Hnnf!" "Graah!" would have changed the tone of that scene) as she gets pistol whipped and made completely defenseless as another voyeuristic villain videotapes the whole thing just struck me the wrong way. If it had been a less experienced heroine, someone who wasn't used to taking a punch, or even if she'd just gotten a swing or two in, it wouldn't have left such a bad taste in my mouth. Now who knows, maybe it'll eventually be revealed that the Hood's become strong enough to actually slap Tigra around like that, but right now it just looks like bad writing. Every character's someone's favorite, and to have a long-established hero utterly job to a relatively new villain (who up until this point hasn't been shown to be nearly this competent) is just lame. And I say this as someone who really likes Bendis.

    Personally, I wasn't effected by it because I didn't read too much into that. I just substitute sound effects with whatever I feel is appropriate for the situation. I guess I sort of played it out differently in my head?

    I think this was definitely a scene meant to establish the Hood as a major threat, and to show that he is getting his shit together and is getting stronger. I mean, we still don't know what the fuck is up with that Demon thing. It could be Parker Robbins being controlled or influenced by the hood for all we know.

    Sars_Boy on
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Iroh wrote: »
    I guess I'll chime in and say I didn't find anything offensive about NA #35. The only reason it could be construed as "overly sexualized" is because it involved a scantily-clad woman. Guess what? That's her costume. It's not like this whole thing was made up to be that way. I'm pretty sure she was chosen because she's a reservist for the Mighty Avengers (which helps avoid timeline problems by using one of the regularly featured members) and because she's the only one of them that is really within the Hood's power to defeat on his own. Granted, he had to set a trap to make it work that way, but it's not out of the question.

    I admit, Jigsaw filming the beating was a little creepy, but I'm withholding judgment until I see where it goes next month.
    Ah ha!

    Smartest man in the room, everyone.

    Sars_Boy on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    If it had been a regular fight that Tigra happened to lose, due to surprise and getting kneecapped, I would've been ok with it. But as it was, it was the Hood going into a woman's house, pistol-whipping her, grabbing her by the scalp and whispering into her ear "Quiet now, we don't want the neighbors to hear." She might've had fur but it was in no way a comic book fight.

    And yea, she might normally wear underwear as her costume, but she wasn't in just her underwear when the attack started.

    Scooter on
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    Iroh wrote: »
    I admit, Jigsaw filming the beating was a little creepy, but I'm withholding judgment until I see where it goes next month.
    Ah ha!

    Smartest man in the room, everyone.

    Things turn REALLY ugly when villains (and then heroes) start using Youtube against one another?

    "Don't taze me bro" hasn't got anything on what they could do with that.

    Forar on
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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    man are we still talking about this?

    DouglasDanger on
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  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Scooter wrote: »
    If it had been a regular fight that Tigra happened to lose, due to surprise and getting kneecapped, I would've been ok with it. But as it was, it was the Hood going into a woman's house, pistol-whipping her, grabbing her by the scalp and whispering into her ear "Quiet now, we don't want the neighbors to hear." She might've had fur but it was in no way a comic book fight.

    And yea, she might normally wear underwear as her costume, but she wasn't in just her underwear when the attack started.
    1)That is exactly how I read it.


    2)Dude, go back and look at her outfit. How does that shirt not tear open in a struggle?

    Sars_Boy on
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    If it had been a regular fight that Tigra happened to lose, due to surprise and getting kneecapped, I would've been ok with it. But as it was, it was the Hood going into a woman's house, pistol-whipping her, grabbing her by the scalp and whispering into her ear "Quiet now, we don't want the neighbors to hear." She might've had fur but it was in no way a comic book fight.

    And yea, she might normally wear underwear as her costume, but she wasn't in just her underwear when the attack started.
    1)That is exactly how I read it.


    2)Dude, go back and look at her outfit. How does that shirt not tear open in a struggle?

    Yes, the black leather bikini is her costume. She was punched. In the face. And her blouse tore open. Now it would appear to the layman, or someone who dabbles in physics, that at the most that punch would turn her head to the side and spin her around. But her shirt tore open from a perfectly mortal human's punch of her face. We're not talking someone who put her through the wall, dammit. If they showed him tearing her blouse away, fine, and that would come with its own disturbing set of issues, but the way it's given it's just gratuitous.

    I know that Hood has that demon thing within him. And if that's used as the explanation, fine (not really, but it's at least an attempt at an explanation). But usually such things have, y'know, visual clues. I'm not asking for his dialogue balloon to be outlined in wavy red lines and his eyes streaming blue fire, but y'know, something unusual in his appearance.

    While you may be right, and this may be going somewhere interesting, with such a retarded beginning, it's hard to imagine how any sort of resolution could pull that off. All commentary about that part aside, Tigra has long been portrayed as one of the more overtly sexual heroines in Marvel U. I'm not talking dressing in something figure-hugging when Laetitia Casta would kill for one's figure. I'm talking she actually has a more active libido--overtly hitting on Iron Man and other heroes, just for a start. I dunno. It seems to be about as progressive as horror movies, where the sexually active people, but particularly the woman, always seem to be punished for daring to fuck by being the first to die.

    I can't believe I've written so many words the past few days about Tigra, who is not on my list of favorite characters (favorite character designs, now...). But for comparison I guess I'd feel the same if, in one of the Matrix movies, a normal bad guy still hooked into the Matrix--not an Agent--beat down Trinity just because he surprised her.

    However, leaving aside the beatdown, there is still no reason whatsoever for Tigra's reaction of fear and crying and pleading. I will say it again: rule of thumb, if Batman or Punisher are still fighting, anyone tougher than any human can be is still fighting.

    (What I'm not saying is that Bendis is a bad writer. But even a good writer can write bad things, and this is one of them.)

    NOW GODDAMMIT, HOW ABOUT THAT ATOMIC ROBO!

    Shadowen on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Sars_Boy wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    If it had been a regular fight that Tigra happened to lose, due to surprise and getting kneecapped, I would've been ok with it. But as it was, it was the Hood going into a woman's house, pistol-whipping her, grabbing her by the scalp and whispering into her ear "Quiet now, we don't want the neighbors to hear." She might've had fur but it was in no way a comic book fight.

    And yea, she might normally wear underwear as her costume, but she wasn't in just her underwear when the attack started.
    1)That is exactly how I read it.


    2)Dude, go back and look at her outfit. How does that shirt not tear open in a struggle?

    Yes, the black leather bikini is her costume. She was punched. In the face. And her blouse tore open. Now it would appear to the layman, or someone who dabbles in physics, that at the most that punch would turn her head to the side and spin her around. But her shirt tore open from a perfectly mortal human's punch of her face. We're not talking someone who put her through the wall, dammit. If they showed him tearing her blouse away, fine, and that would come with its own disturbing set of issues, but the way it's given it's just gratuitous.

    Actually, he hits her in the face with his gun then grabs her and slams her through a mirror, thus opening her blouse.
    I really don't think he raped her guys, The Hood is trying to show that he means business and every move he makes from here on out is calculated. That means not being opportunistic, like a rape in that scenario would be.

    edit: also, your "Batman/Punisher" comment is bullshit. People feel pain in varying degrees. Furthermore, people deal with trauma in different ways. Having a guy appear in your house, pistol whip you to the point of your face breaking, shoving you through a mirror, and then getting shot in the knee cap is a very traumatic thing and it emotionally wrecked her as a person. Her reacting the way she did is human nature, it does not make her weak in any sense. That would be like calling a rape victim a big cry baby for not wanting to be alone or something like that.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I really don't think he raped her guys, The Hood is trying to show that he means business and every move he makes from here on out is calculated. That means not being opportunistic, like a rape in that scenario would be.

    I was thinking Jigsaw more than Hood. But yea, I don't think they're willing to cross the line and go through the whole business of Tigra being a rape victim. But they really went all the way up to the line on this one. And I could see, down the line, a flashback story where Tigra reveals something did happen and she's been hiding it all along.

    Scooter on
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Now that would be bad writing.

    Sars_Boy on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I'm just curious what happens when Tigra shows up for work at the Initiative.

    Yellowjacket: "Hey Greer I was just- HOLY SHIT what happened to you?!"
    Tigra: "Hi Hank I--"
    Invisible Hood: You fell down some stairs.
    Tigra: I fell down some stairs. Onto a bullet.

    Munch on
  • NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Munch wrote: »
    I'm just curious what happens when Tigra shows up for work at the Initiative.

    Yellowjacket: "Hey Greer I was just- HOLY SHIT what happened to you?!"
    Tigra: "Hi Hank I--"
    Invisible Hood: You fell down some stairs.
    Tigra: I fell down some stairs. Onto a bullet.

    minor healing factor, she'll look fine by the time she sees anyone else.

    Nogs on
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  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Either that or everyone will think 'Ol Hank is at it again.

    Sars_Boy on
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