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Ron Paul, The Conspiracy '08

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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    Thinatos wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    I liked the phrase "Paul's striking success at breaking out of the tinfoil-hat ghetto."
    Paul's doing well in states other than New Hampshire?
    He's at 5% nationally and . . . 7 or 8% in NH.

    I guess it depends on how you define "well".

    John McCain, for instance, is probably envying that six million dollar fundraising day Paul had a few weeks ago.
    ...

    I was insinuating that New Hampshire is the "tinfoil-hat ghetto."

    Thanatos on
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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Wait, so what happened?

    It was basically Amway for the paranoid.

    I explained the issue here. Suffice it to say that when you sell someone $15 work of product at $20, and state that they're getting $20 worth of value, that's usually called fraud.

    We need to extend your excellent analysis, you asked what would happen if the spot price of silver was $17, from reading the prior document it turns out they'd re-mint the coins (sorry, medallions) at $50.

    Now that's how you devalue a currency, take that Federal Reserve.

    Alistair Hutton on
    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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    dvshermandvsherman Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Wow. $15 -> $20 doesn't seem so bad now. Glad they got busted.

    dvsherman on
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    ChopperDaveChopperDave Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    bingo

    Nice!

    Fix the "Fiat Currency" - even though that's a pretty funny typo - and we're good to go. Of course, we'll need more than one card to get an actual game of Bingo going. Hop to it! ;)

    ChopperDave on
    3DS code: 3007-8077-4055
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    RaethRaeth Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Wait, so what happened?

    It was basically Amway for the paranoid.

    I explained the issue here. Suffice it to say that when you sell someone $15 work of product at $20, and state that they're getting $20 worth of value, that's usually called fraud.

    Actually, it's called seigniorage, and is standard practice for all mints. The US Mint, for instance, spends about 5 cents to mint a quarter (including the metal), but sells them for 25 cents. Viewed from this perspective, selling 15 dollars of metal for 20 dollars is a pretty good deal.

    You can now return to your regularly scheduled mindless bashing.

    Raeth on
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    LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Raeth wrote: »
    Wait, so what happened?

    It was basically Amway for the paranoid.

    I explained the issue here. Suffice it to say that when you sell someone $15 work of product at $20, and state that they're getting $20 worth of value, that's usually called fraud.

    Actually, it's called seigniorage, and is standard practice for all mints. The US Mint, for instance, spends about 5 cents to mint a quarter (including the metal), but sells them for 25 cents. Viewed from this perspective, selling 15 dollars of metal for 20 dollars is a pretty good deal.

    You can now return to your regularly scheduled mindless bashing.

    I'm fairly certain the fact that these aren't legal tender and thus not under the same regulations has a great deal to do with the fact that this was fraud.

    and I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "sell"

    Lanz on
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    fjafjanfjafjan Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Raeth wrote: »
    Wait, so what happened?

    It was basically Amway for the paranoid.

    I explained the issue here. Suffice it to say that when you sell someone $15 work of product at $20, and state that they're getting $20 worth of value, that's usually called fraud.

    Actually, it's called seigniorage, and is standard practice for all mints. The US Mint, for instance, spends about 5 cents to mint a quarter (including the metal), but sells them for 25 cents. Viewed from this perspective, selling 15 dollars of metal for 20 dollars is a pretty good deal.

    You can now return to your regularly scheduled mindless bashing.
    No, if I buy 4 quarters for a dollar I can get, and this might be shocking, 25 cents back. They are worth 25 cents. They are not worth 25 cents in metallic worth, especially after processing but that's not the point, they aren't worth 25 cents as ballast either.
    If you bought a 25cent silver coin for me for 1 dollar, and that silver coin would be worth 25 cents. Well now you're being fucked.

    fjafjan on
    Yepp, THE Fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
    - "Proving once again the deadliest animal of all ... is the Zoo Keeper" - Philip J Fry
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    RaethRaeth Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    fjafjan wrote: »
    No, if I buy 4 quarters for a dollar I can get, and this might be shocking, 25 cents back. They are worth 25 cents. They are not worth 25 cents in metallic worth, especially after processing but that's not the point, they aren't worth 25 cents as ballast either.
    If you bought a 25cent silver coin for me for 1 dollar, and that silver coin would be worth 25 cents. Well now you're being fucked.

    What you've written is complete gibberish. Go back and read the article on seigniorage (again?). Carefully.

    Raeth on
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    ChopperDaveChopperDave Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    The link is the printing of money to finance government spending when the government cannot (or does not want to) finance all of its spending by taxes or borrowing from the public. In the extreme case, imagine a government that wants to spend $10 billion (say, on submarines) but has no ability to tax or borrow from the public. One option is for this government to print $10 billion worth of currency and use this currency to pay for the submarines. The revenue that a government raises by printing money is called seignorage. Any government with the authority to issue money can use seignorage; governments that do not have the authority to issue money, such as state governments in the United States, can't use seignorage.

    In other words, seignorage is a form of taxation. And allow me to remind you: only the federal government is allowed to issue money, and only the federal/state governments are allowed to tax. So the federal governemnt is the only body that can legally receive seignorage.

    In other OTHER words, it's still fraud.

    Thanks for playing!

    ChopperDave on
    3DS code: 3007-8077-4055
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    The Liberty Dollar group claims that they are backed by a precious metal when they aren't. For example, they doubled the face value of the 10 dollar coin without actually increasing the holdings.
    Actually, it's called seigniorage, and is standard practice for all mints. The US Mint, for instance, spends about 5 cents to mint a quarter (including the metal), but sells them for 25 cents. Viewed from this perspective, selling 15 dollars of metal for 20 dollars is a pretty good deal.
    The wikipedia article claims
    Seigniorage can be seen as a form of tax levied on the holders of a currency and as such a redistribution of real resources to the issuer. The expansion of the money supply causes inflation. This means that the real wealth of people who hold cash or deposits decreases and the wealth of the issuer of the money increases. This is a redistribution of wealth from the people to the issuers of newly-created money (mostly banks) very similar to a tax.

    This is one reason offered in support of the creation of modern, independent, central banks whose primary objective is arguably to ensure the value of currency by controlling monetary expansion and thus limiting inflation. Independence from government is required to reach this aim - indeed, it is well known in economic literature that governments face a conflict of interest in this regard. In fact, "hard money" advocates argue that central banks have utterly failed to obtain the objective of a stable currency. Under the gold standard, for example, the price level in both England and the US remained relatively stable over literally hundreds of years, though with some protracted periods of deflation. Since the US Federal Reserve was formed in 1913 however, the US dollar has fallen to barely a twentieth of its former value through the consistently inflationary policies of the bank. Economists counter that deflation is hard to control once it sets in and its effects are much more damaging than modest, consistent inflation.
    A currency backed by a precious metal having seigniorage is pretty much BS.

    Couscous on
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    dvshermandvsherman Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Look, the currency the U.S. uses isn't fraudulent. The reason the Liberty Dollar was a scam was because they said a $20 coin (or bill, they had paper currency, too) was 100% backed by silver. If they're backing up their twenty dollars with one ounce of silver when spot is $15, then they're jipping people out of $5.

    The U.S. currency isn't jipping anyone* because it's not backed by anything, except that which it will buy. If that currency is fraud, it's fraud affecting everyone, worldwide, that is participating in the system. Considering fiat currency is pretty universally accepted, I would say that if everyone is playing by the same rules is it still fraud?

    Seriously, it looks like the liberty dollar thing might need its own thread. Would any mod care to rip it out of here and toss it in a new one? It'd be cool to have what we've discussed so far included in the new thread.

    dvsherman on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    For the curious, the RP coin:
    RonPauldollar.jpg

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I love the "Trust in God line."

    It's like watching a comedy show where they're trying to use a well known song (like "Eye of the Tiger"), only they're changing the notes to that song just enough to avoid paying royalties.

    Schrodinger on
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    OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I love the "Trust in God line."

    It's like watching a comedy show where they're trying to use a well known song (like "Eye of the Tiger"), only they're changing the notes to that song just enough to avoid paying royalties.

    I thought it gives a new spin on the old classic by changing a statement into a command.

    Like, "Trust in God, while we're dragging you to a dungeon to be sodomized."

    Probably an ID chip imbedded in the center of the coin.

    Octoparrot on
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    SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I'm thinking of replacing "Anecdotal or hypothetical evidence used to assert that all government efforts will lead to failure" with either "So did all those donations come from spammers as well?" or "How can he have 20,000 donors if he's only polling at 2 percent?"

    Maybe just, "Remember, remember, the 5th of November!" (When Guy Fawkes attempted to use terrorism to institute a catholic monarchy.).

    Suggestions on phrasing?

    Schrodinger on
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    jotatejotate Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I think the idea with BINGO is that all the cards are different. So you could walk around as a group talking to people and mark your cards when someone says something on the card. So you should get a collection of these together, put them on a web server, and randomly generate the cards that can be printed.

    jotate on
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    SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Well, I lack the HTML for that. Also, there's no actual prize.

    The joke is that in bingo, you're give a set of numbers and you're anticipating for those numbers to show up. Just like on these boards, it's a simple matter of "Oh great, another gold standard supporter. I was wondering how long it would take for you to show up..." It's a statement on predictability, and reliance on contrived material, despite the fact that they pride themselves on being individuals.

    But you're right in saying that it would be fun to print these out. I think it would be interesting if everytime someone hanged up a pro-Ron Paul sign, you put one of these next to it. THen, if someone removed the bingo card, you removed the sign (tit-for-tat.).

    Schrodinger on
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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    For the curious, the RP coin:
    RonPauldollar.jpg

    Soon to be a $50 coin, feel the value flowing into you.

    Alistair Hutton on
    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    Thinatos wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    Thinatos wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    I liked the phrase "Paul's striking success at breaking out of the tinfoil-hat ghetto."
    Paul's doing well in states other than New Hampshire?
    He's at 5% nationally and . . . 7 or 8% in NH.

    I guess it depends on how you define "well".

    John McCain, for instance, is probably envying that six million dollar fundraising day Paul had a few weeks ago.
    ...

    I was insinuating that New Hampshire is the "tinfoil-hat ghetto."

    Ah.

    How clever of you.

    Shinto on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    http://www.kswo.com/Global/story.asp?S=7392817
    Identity thieves allegedly used debit cards to make fraudulent donations to the presidential campaign of Texas Congressman Ron Paul.

    Campaign staffers spotted several hundred $5 charges from similar Internet addresses this month. Security officials for San Antonio-based Frost Bank noticed a similar pattern on check cards from an out-of-country location around the same time.

    Fewer than 100 cards had unauthorized charges on them, and fewer than 500 cards were effected. Frost Bank refunded the money and canceled the affected cards.

    Jesse Benton's a spokesman for the Lake Jackson Republican's campaign. He says the fraud was "unfortunate," but the campaign and Frost Bank "took rapid action."

    The fraudulent donations, first reported by CBSnews.com, amounted to about $3,000 and were returned.

    Bank officials said the identity thieves may have used the Paul campaign as a test to see whether the stolen debit card numbers were valid before attempting larger purchases.
    Why am I not surprised?

    Couscous on
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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    Paul's internet following seems quite thuggish.

    Shinto on
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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    titmouse wrote: »
    The fraudulent donations, first reported by CBSnews.com, amounted to about $3,000 and were returned.

    Bank officials said the identity thieves may have used the Paul campaign as a test to see whether the stolen debit card numbers were valid before attempting larger purchases.
    Why am I not surprised?

    Making charitable donations is now the in-thing for checking out your stolen credit card details. This is due to the previously low levels of fraud checking charities have performed on donations. In Britain Oxfam gets thousands of these non-donations every year.

    Alistair Hutton on
    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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    DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
    edited November 2007
    Paul is polling 8% in my state and I just had my picture taken with him yesterday.

    Thats going to come back to haunt me in my district, they are the hick-terror kind of Republicans, not the libertarian-decent kind of Republicans. But hey I can always claim bi-partisanship now.

    Unknown User on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    Paul's internet following seems quite thuggish.

    You're surprised? His core supporters are basically a collection of people who are just that little bit too attached to electricity and soap to actually become the next Unabomber.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    Paul's internet following seems quite thuggish.

    You're surprised? His core supporters are basically a collection of people who are just that little bit too attached to electricity and soap to actually become the next Unabomber.

    Not actually true.

    Shinto on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=99354
    http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/190191.php
    Ron Paul was on the Alex Jones program yesterday.

    Who is he?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Jones_(radio)
    *

    * 9-11: The Road to Tyranny (2002): Jones says that most major 20th and 21st century terrorist attacks were orchestrated by governments, including the September 11, 2001 attacks.

    Couscous on
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    AdrienAdrien Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I love the "Trust in God line."

    Let's hear it for unintentional irony!

    Adrien on
    tmkm.jpg
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    SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
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    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited November 2007
    No. No!

    Why won't you die?!

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    That's it.

    I'm going to get a copy of J.S. Mills signed by Paul so I can sell it online. These guys clearly have too much money in their wallets.

    Shinto on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    suilimeA wrote: »
    No. No!

    Why won't you die?!

    Because within every Ron Paul thread beats the black heart of the undead.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    Sounds icky.

    Shinto on
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    Zephyr_FateZephyr_Fate Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Ron Paul sounds more like a Constitutionalist, and they're pretty fucking crazy people in general.

    Zephyr_Fate on
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    On the one hand, I'd think that 9 days before Christmas would be a terrible time to try to get people to give you lots of money for a political campaign.

    On the other hand, I really can't see Ron Paul's supporters spending an awful lot of money on gifts for other people.

    Thanatos on
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    Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Thinatos wrote: »
    gifts for other people.

    Sounds like Communism to me.

    Alistair Hutton on
    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
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    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Thinatos wrote: »
    gifts for other people.

    Sounds like Communism to me.
    No, it belongs to everyone, says the man in Moscow.

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Oh, supposedly, there's even now a Ron Paul blimp.

    I'm officially freaked the fuck out.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Thinatos wrote: »
    gifts for other people.

    Sounds like Communism to me.
    No, it belongs to everyone, says the man in Moscow.
    I chose... RAPTURE

    Fencingsax on
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    LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Oh, supposedly, there's even now a Ron Paul blimp.

    I'm officially freaked the fuck out.

    ...

    now I have to see this

    Lanz on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Lanz wrote: »
    Oh, supposedly, there's even now a Ron Paul blimp.

    I'm officially freaked the fuck out.

    ...

    now I have to see this

    Well, it seems that they're fundraising for it.

    Seriously, Rondroids seem to not comprehend that stunts like this do not a campaign make.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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