Options

Will Sam & Max be considered a hate crime in New York?

13567

Posts

  • Options
    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2007
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Guys I am pretty sure that The Cat is not advocating banning nooses or anything of the sort.
    You'd think people would have pickd up on that, but no...
    She's just saying that yes, they do in fact have a racial connotation when they're directed at blacks. Which is - y'know - true.
    Indeed. And I get the impression that their use as a threat towards blacks has been on the upswing over the past couple of years, with the people doing it sweraing up and down that they were 'just being funny'. Sure. I'm suggesting here that perhaps, just perhaps, there might be a string of incidents y'all are not aware of that prompted this reaction in the first place.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • Options
    WashWash Sweet Christmas Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Drez wrote: »
    suilimeA wrote: »
    suilimeA wrote: »
    Minority feels threatened

    Right, because they're never actually threatened because racism is all gone now, right?

    Way to trivialize.

    I think what Dark means is that people don't want to risk upsetting anyone, and when the slightest possibility of someone getting offended or feeling threatened presents itself people tend to just rub it out without looking into it thoroughly. If someone thinks an object may upset a group of people, or if one person happens to get upset about a noose - even one that's displayed without the intent of being threatening - people are quick to get rid of it.

    I think that is a fear that is fabricated by the Right in order to de-legitimize useful legislation and initiatives to address the fact that some kinds of speech and action can only be analyzed accurately when examined in a context of race/gender/orientation, or other kinds of oppression.

    I dunno. I think most censorship (and yes, I understand that censorship is not necessarily the same thing as legislating against the display of anti-hate symbols) is borne from sensational over-protectiveness and misguided utilitarian views. Just my independant perspective.

    I'd say it's more a fear of being sued or looking bad than a desire to work toward the greater good.

    Wash on
    gi5h0gjqwti1.jpg
  • Options
    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Stasis wrote: »
    This just goes to show that you don't have to be smart to run the government. In fact, it might be required to be a moron.

    1. Nooses are showing up because it's almost Halloween. It's a Halloween theme.

    Only among people who think blackface is an acceptable costume choice.

    Right, so explain this then?

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
  • Options
    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2007
    Drez wrote: »
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Guys I am pretty sure that The Cat is not advocating banning nooses or anything of the sort.

    She's just saying that yes, they do in fact have a racial connotation when they're directed at blacks. Which is - y'know - true.

    Though hey, maybe racism will go away once the entire fucking country is as autistic as forum nerds and threats have to be written like "Go away black people who are not actually black but in fact brown, what is up with that anyway."

    No, I think she is actually stating that nooses are inappropriate because they are symbols for black lynching and in our current political climate, despite there being other historical contexts for the noose, this context is the only one worth evaluating whether it is used in a racial context or not.

    In fact, I think that's exactly what she stated and thus implied that it doesn't matter if the intent of the symbol is to "be racist" or not. From what I gather, she believes the symbol itself is currently inappropriate no matter how or why it is displayed.

    Pretty much. If you're going to lolz around with this particular symbol right now (leaving aside VC's attempts to worm around it by babbling on about hiding them behind skeletons and streamers) you're not doing anything illegal, but you are likely going to take a reputation hit among a fair chunk of people. Its kind of like Sam-Jackson-in-Die-Hard-3-with-the-sandwich-board at the moment.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • Options
    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Guys I am pretty sure that The Cat is not advocating banning nooses or anything of the sort.
    You'd think people would have pickd up on that, but no...
    You stated that anyone hanging a noose is morally defunct or something along those lines. Same difference. And I think you've grossly misstated your opinion if you're saying that you weren't advocating against nooses in any context.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
  • Options
    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2007
    suilimeA wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Stasis wrote: »
    This just goes to show that you don't have to be smart to run the government. In fact, it might be required to be a moron.

    1. Nooses are showing up because it's almost Halloween. It's a Halloween theme.

    Only among people who think blackface is an acceptable costume choice.

    Right, so explain this then?

    I'm actually riffing off a recent university-sponsored party held by a white frat in the US that sparked a fair amount of entirely justified outrage. Oh, there were nooses there too. Basically the whole theme of the party was LOL BLACKS R TEH FUNNEY HURR HURR. Its an example of the mindset I was attacking before, the one belonging to too many white middleclass teens and young adults on this board who have fuck-all awareness of the race issues in their own backyard and are continually dismissive whenever anyone else brings them up.

    because fuck those guys.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • Options
    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    There was a 'Mexican' party on Cinco de Mayo too.

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • Options
    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    suilimeA wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Stasis wrote: »
    This just goes to show that you don't have to be smart to run the government. In fact, it might be required to be a moron.

    1. Nooses are showing up because it's almost Halloween. It's a Halloween theme.

    Only among people who think blackface is an acceptable costume choice.

    Right, so explain this then?

    I'm actually riffing off a recent university-sponsored party held by a white frat in the US that sparked a fair amount of entirely justified outrage. Oh, there were nooses there too. Basically the whole theme of the party was LOL BLACKS R TEH FUNNEY HURR HURR. Its an example of the mindset I was attacking before, the one belonging to too many white middleclass teens and young adults on this board who have fuck-all awareness of the race issues in their own backyard and are continually dismissive whenever anyone else brings them up.

    because fuck those guys.

    I agree, fuck them in the ear. But that's because there was immediate context which reinforced the historical and national context.

    So, really, I don't see how that applies at all to sane people.

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
  • Options
    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2007
    Do you realise that I was implying your membership in that group aem

    do you

    i don't think you do

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • Options
    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Guys I am pretty sure that The Cat is not advocating banning nooses or anything of the sort.

    She's just saying that yes, they do in fact have a racial connotation when they're directed at blacks. Which is - y'know - true.

    Though hey, maybe racism will go away once the entire fucking country is as autistic as forum nerds and threats have to be written like "Go away black people who are not actually black but in fact brown, what is up with that anyway."

    No, I think she is actually stating that nooses are inappropriate because they are symbols for black lynching and in our current political climate, despite there being other historical contexts for the noose, this context is the only one worth evaluating whether it is used in a racial context or not.

    In fact, I think that's exactly what she stated and thus implied that it doesn't matter if the intent of the symbol is to "be racist" or not. From what I gather, she believes the symbol itself is currently inappropriate no matter how or why it is displayed.

    Pretty much. If you're going to lolz around with this particular symbol right now (leaving aside VC's attempts to worm around it by babbling on about hiding them behind skeletons and streamers) you're not doing anything illegal, but you are likely going to take a reputation hit among a fair chunk of people. Its kind of like Sam-Jackson-in-Die-Hard-3-with-the-sandwich-board at the moment.

    Frankly, I have a low opinion of anyone not willing to hang a skeleton, witch, jack-o-lantern, or scarecrow by a noose because of some cockamamie and irrelevant "political climate" or what-have-you catalyzed by some actual racists who are - in fact - in the minority and not the majority. So if you want to talk about reputation here, I think the people willing to give power to racism by hiding a well-established and acceptable visual prop (I won't even deign to call it a symbol) for celebrating Halloween are the ones that "lose points", at least in my eyes.

    And while you dismiss ViolentChemistry's comments with a wave of your fist, you are missing that his comments are right on the mark IN THIS CONTEXT considering this is Halloween which, in America, is usually treated very lightheartedly.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
  • Options
    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2007
    Yeah I don't really have a counter-argument for "you're an autistic forum nerd" so I'm just going to quit.

    ViolentChemistry on
  • Options
    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Do you realise that I was implying your membership in that group aem

    do you

    i don't think you do

    Oh when you said "those guys" I thought you meant the fraternatards.

    I don't see how I'm ignorant of the issue. I think this law is perfectly fine. I see no reason to oppose it. But that's because it has that clause about intent to harass or threaten.

    I think it's pretty obvious that someone hanging halloween decorations does not have an intent to harass or threaten.

    I just believe in context. You're coming at the noose from one angle alone, and people who think the law is dumb are coming at it from no angle at all, but neither of you are looking at all the contexts which a noose might be in.

    I think that's disingenous.

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
  • Options
    RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Stasis wrote: »
    This just goes to show that you don't have to be smart to run the government. In fact, it might be required to be a moron.

    1. Nooses are showing up because it's almost Halloween. It's a Halloween theme.

    Only among people who think blackface is an acceptable costume choice.

    So we should ban/edit out any reference to hangings and/or nooses in western movies too? Unlike swastikas a hangman's noose has multiple, popular, historical connotations in American History. A ban like this will be applied universally rather then from case to case like it should.

    Edit: Haha, thats what I get for posting without refreshing to read new replies.

    RedTide on
    RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
    Come Overwatch with meeeee
  • Options
    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited October 2007
    Also Cat I resent the implication of social retardation at the root of my opinion. Granted, I am socially retarded, but I feel this opinion of mine has a pretty solid logical foundation.

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
  • Options
    JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited October 2007
    RedTide wrote: »
    So we should ban/edit out any reference to hangings and/or nooses in western movies too?

    Wild hyperbole for the lose. Also: read the thread.

    Jacobkosh on
  • Options
    WashWash Sweet Christmas Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    jacobkosh wrote: »
    Guys I am pretty sure that The Cat is not advocating banning nooses or anything of the sort.

    She's just saying that yes, they do in fact have a racial connotation when they're directed at blacks. Which is - y'know - true.

    Though hey, maybe racism will go away once the entire fucking country is as autistic as forum nerds and threats have to be written like "Go away black people who are not actually black but in fact brown, what is up with that anyway."

    No, I think she is actually stating that nooses are inappropriate because they are symbols for black lynching and in our current political climate, despite there being other historical contexts for the noose, this context is the only one worth evaluating whether it is used in a racial context or not.

    In fact, I think that's exactly what she stated and thus implied that it doesn't matter if the intent of the symbol is to "be racist" or not. From what I gather, she believes the symbol itself is currently inappropriate no matter how or why it is displayed.

    Pretty much. If you're going to lolz around with this particular symbol right now (leaving aside VC's attempts to worm around it by babbling on about hiding them behind skeletons and streamers) you're not doing anything illegal, but you are likely going to take a reputation hit among a fair chunk of people. Its kind of like Sam-Jackson-in-Die-Hard-3-with-the-sandwich-board at the moment.

    People who might 'lolz' around with nooses during the Halloween season probably aren't thinking about racism, they're probably thinking about horror films and things that are spooky and scary. I don't think you understand how often a noose has been used in old horror stories and films. While it's a symbol that can be linked to acts of racism, it's also a symbol, albeit a weak one, of Halloween.

    The sandwich board scene in Die Hard 3 is a terrible thing to compare a noose decoration to. The sandwich board was intended to offend, and that intent was pretty damn clear from the message written on it. A noose hung up on Halloween isn't meant to offend anyone, and anyone who'd take the time to look at it in context would realize that.

    Wash on
    gi5h0gjqwti1.jpg
  • Options
    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited October 2007
    RedTide wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Stasis wrote: »
    This just goes to show that you don't have to be smart to run the government. In fact, it might be required to be a moron.

    1. Nooses are showing up because it's almost Halloween. It's a Halloween theme.

    Only among people who think blackface is an acceptable costume choice.

    So we should ban/edit out any reference to hangings and/or nooses in western movies too? Unlike swastikas a hangman's noose has multiple, popular, historical connotations in American History. A ban like this will be applied universally rather then from case to case like it should.

    Yes. That's exactly what should happen.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • Options
    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited October 2007
    Elki wrote: »
    RedTide wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Stasis wrote: »
    This just goes to show that you don't have to be smart to run the government. In fact, it might be required to be a moron.

    1. Nooses are showing up because it's almost Halloween. It's a Halloween theme.

    Only among people who think blackface is an acceptable costume choice.

    So we should ban/edit out any reference to hangings and/or nooses in western movies too? Unlike swastikas a hangman's noose has multiple, popular, historical connotations in American History. A ban like this will be applied universally rather then from case to case like it should.

    Yes. That's exactly what should happen.

    Or you could respond with content instead of one-line sarcasm.

    Edit: I'm not defending him, becuase he's retarded, but seriously you're just going to inflame shit because people will think you're serious.

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
  • Options
    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2007
    suilimeA wrote: »
    Also Cat I resent the implication of social retardation at the root of my opinion. Granted, I am socially retarded, but I feel this opinion of mine has a pretty solid logical foundation.
    The implication was actually about geographical and social isolation from exposure to minority groups coupled with piss poor local history education, but don't let me stop your pity-party.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • Options
    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited October 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    suilimeA wrote: »
    Also Cat I resent the implication of social retardation at the root of my opinion. Granted, I am socially retarded, but I feel this opinion of mine has a pretty solid logical foundation.
    The implication was actually about geographical and social isolation from exposure to minority groups
    .

    O_o

    You...you realize that LA is the most diverse city in the world, right? And that my school is abounding with people from all over the fucking world? Seriously, Cat, I probably have more daily exposure to minorities than you do.
    coupled with piss poor local history education, but don't let me stop your pity-party.

    For god's sake I'm not denying historical context!

    You're confusing me with the idiots in this thread who are. I'm acknolwedging that context, acknolwedging that hate-crime laws are a good thing, a necessary thing, but also acknolwedging other kinds of context, whereas you are actually the one with the narrow, self-serving analysis.

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
  • Options
    ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Chuckles McFuck hangs up a noose on his lawn on Halloween. He may intend to scare his black neighbours, it may be a harmless amusement for the kiddies - doesn't matter for the purposes of this example.

    For him to be found guilty under this law,
    a) Someone has to complain.
    b) Police have to be convinced that there is enough evidence to support a charge
    c) Prosecutors have to be convinced that there is enough evidence to take the matter before court
    d) A jury/magistrate, whatever, has to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the elements of the crime are fulfilled.

    Do any hand-wringers here honestly think that cops are going to be kicking in your doors on Halloween to cuff you for spooky decorations? Do you honestly think that prosecutors and judges have such a hard-on for enforcing these laws that they'll piss state money against the wall chasing after cases where intent is impossible to prove? Or do you think that maybe - just maybe - they'll only indict those crimes that are honestly about racial intimidation? Cases that have a reasonable chance of success?

    Because, standing up and trying to impute intent without any supporting evidence is goddamn hard. I have seen prosecutors bang up against walls time and time again over charges like rape and murder where huge gaol sentences hang in the balance.

    Assault by threatening gesture is a very similar crime. Do you often see cops cuffing kids who have been playing cops and robbers?

    Zsetrek on
  • Options
    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    suilimeA wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    suilimeA wrote: »
    Also Cat I resent the implication of social retardation at the root of my opinion. Granted, I am socially retarded, but I feel this opinion of mine has a pretty solid logical foundation.
    The implication was actually about geographical and social isolation from exposure to minority groups
    .

    O_o

    You...you realize that LA is the most diverse city in the world, right? And that my school is abounding with people from all over the fucking world? Seriously, Cat, I probably have more daily exposure to minorities than you do.

    (snickering)

    Just because you live near minorities doesn't mean that you're exposed to them. If I had one adjective to describe LA, that adjective would be "Balkanized".

    And before you say I don't know what I'm talking about, I lived in LA for five years.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • Options
    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Yeah, most of the time people ignore the courts completely and call the news. Channel 5 is on your side.

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • Options
    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2007
    suilimeA wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    suilimeA wrote: »
    Also Cat I resent the implication of social retardation at the root of my opinion. Granted, I am socially retarded, but I feel this opinion of mine has a pretty solid logical foundation.
    The implication was actually about geographical and social isolation from exposure to minority groups
    .

    O_o

    You...you realize that LA is the most diverse city in the world, right? And that my school is abounding with people from all over the fucking world? Seriously, Cat, I probably have more daily exposure to minorities than you do.

    (snickering)

    Just because you live near minorities doesn't mean that you're exposed to them. If I had one adjective to describe LA, that adjective would be "Balkanized".

    And before you say I don't know what I'm talking about, I lived in LA for five years.

    mmhmmm. Its not like me and my freakin' geography major are unaware of the social fabric of contemporary US society.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • Options
    ZsetrekZsetrek Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I have no idea why you guys are arguing.

    Zsetrek on
  • Options
    JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited October 2007
    Zsetrek wrote: »
    I have no idea why you guys are arguing.

    Jacobkosh on
  • Options
    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I have no idea what we're arguing about in the first place. It seems that the OP was just stupid, and it went downhill from there.

    Fencingsax on
  • Options
    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited October 2007
    suilimeA wrote: »
    Or you could respond with content instead of one-line sarcasm.

    That's not gonna help you if you don't know how to read. English is a really complicated language.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • Options
    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited October 2007
    suilimeA wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    suilimeA wrote: »
    Also Cat I resent the implication of social retardation at the root of my opinion. Granted, I am socially retarded, but I feel this opinion of mine has a pretty solid logical foundation.
    The implication was actually about geographical and social isolation from exposure to minority groups
    .

    O_o

    You...you realize that LA is the most diverse city in the world, right? And that my school is abounding with people from all over the fucking world? Seriously, Cat, I probably have more daily exposure to minorities than you do.

    (snickering)

    Just because you live near minorities doesn't mean that you're exposed to them. If I had one adjective to describe LA, that adjective would be "Balkanized".

    And before you say I don't know what I'm talking about, I lived in LA for five years.

    College helps.

    But here's an anecdote that I thought of on the bus-ride home that might help illustrate what I'm saying:

    I was hanging out with some people from debate, and we were smoking and drinking and having a good time, when someone brings up Sublime (the band). Taric then started talking about how he's sick of white people stelaing black people's music. Without missing a beat, Fadih (his debate partner) said "You know what I'm sick of? Black people stealing white people's bikes." The timing was perfect, and everyone burst out laughing. Now, from a purely historical and social context, the stereotype that black people steal is a harmful and offensive one, so why was it that none of the black people who heard the joke took offense? And remember, these are debate kids -- people who argue for fun. They are not the kind of people who let something slide if they disagree with it. We had been arguing all night long about myraid topics, many of them race-related.

    Of course, the immediate context made the joke funny, and not harmful or offensive. This context included:

    (1) The mixed nature of the group (5 black, 4 white, 1 Syrian, 1 Indian, 1 Afghani, 1 Hispanic). Obviously when someone is in a minority position in a group it can be intimidating and their voice can be muted, and jokes/comments can take on a more ominous tone.

    (2) The long standing friendship/debate partnership between Taric and Fadih. They're very close friends and debate partners and have been for over a year. Obviously when Fadih makes that kind of joke, there's an understanding of his intent.

    (3) The fact that everyone there was liberal, intelligent, informed, and tolerant. Racial tension simply doesn't exist in that group of people -- we're all very comfortable with each other, and we certainly are used to being around people of all races.

    (4) The relaxed, goofy, semi-stoned tone of conversation at the point in the (late) evening. We were all extremely chilled-out, just sitting around and chatting.

    Not surprisingly, the immediate context overrode the historical and social context of the joke. By your token, Cat, everyone there should have been offended with what Fadih said, because from a purely historical and social context, what he said was reinforcing negative stereotypes and obviously harmful and offensive. And yet, no one was offended.

    You seem to think that minorities are some special group of ultra-sensitive people who need to be coddled and protected from anything that might be construed as offensive, which is itself an insulting outlook. I have a feeling that if this were about women, you'd chalk it up to an over-protective patriarchal stance and be disgusted.

    Honestly, if anything, your stance is something I've encountered far more often in people who have very little interaction with minorities than my stance -- yours is a stance common among liberals who are so eager to prove their understanding of and sympathy for minorities, without actually having the personal experience to realize that people of color are -- shockingly! -- reasonable and rational as anyone else and capable of discerning fucking intent. What a fucking revelation.

    However, unlike you, I am not so arrogant as to presume your personal experience, and to use this presumed personal experience to attack you and your argument with an ad hominem.

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
  • Options
    FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Edit: Also in response to post-Constructionist history I present exhibit A), the south. People actually think the racism is gone there just because most people there speak politely.

    Dear lord can people stop saying this. Yeah, they're still plenty of racism down here. There's still just as much racism everywhere else. And I don't mean just everywhere in the US, I mean everywhere. The attitude that it's only in the south only serves to blind people to racism around them.

    FirstComradeStalin on
    Picture1-4.png
  • Options
    HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Can I still draw a noose on my private property with the intent to threaten, intimidate, or harass? They might not get to see it, but my racial hate is on full display on the inside of my tub!

    Ima hatin'.

    Hoz on
  • Options
    1600Points1600Points Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    It is unfortunate but Sam & Max probably would be taken into consideration under this particular law, however it could easily be shot down by the supreme court.
    Nothing really to worry about.

    1600Points on
    Steam ID - 1600Points
    Xbox Live - Doctor Xedd
    Gametap - RIbar77
  • Options
    ege02ege02 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2007
    Zsetrek wrote: »
    Do any hand-wringers here honestly think that cops are going to be kicking in your doors on Halloween to cuff you for spooky decorations? Do you honestly think that prosecutors and judges have such a hard-on for enforcing these laws that they'll piss state money against the wall chasing after cases where intent is impossible to prove? Or do you think that maybe - just maybe - they'll only indict those crimes that are honestly about racial intimidation? Cases that have a reasonable chance of success?

    This is America.

    ege02 on
  • Options
    Lord JezoLord Jezo Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I have no idea what we're arguing about in the first place. It seems that the OP was just stupid, and it went downhill from there.

    Okay well let me try to explain more about what I see happening.

    If someone makes a light hearted game these days and fills said game with amusing references to swastikas, burning crosses, and whatever else is considered a hate crime activist groups will come out with extreme outrage towards that game. There would be protests outside of the game company's headquarters, there would be editorial letters in the paper. The news would cover it as "Hate crime game targeted at children" or "New game for children laughs at hate crimes, story at 11". With the way this noose nonsense is going soon a noose will be just as bad to see as the nazi symbol. You make a game that makes fun of the new symbol of black hate, the noose, and people will be outraged. "How dare they put a symbol of black oppression in a humorous game with cute characters targeted towards our children??" It does not matter if it's an M rated game. There are talking animals making fun of symbols considered hate crimes.

    Lord Jezo on
    Clipboard03.jpg
    I KISS YOU!
  • Options
    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Edit: Also in response to post-Constructionist history I present exhibit A), the south. People actually think the racism is gone there just because most people there speak politely.

    Dear lord can people stop saying this. Yeah, they're still plenty of racism down here. There's still just as much racism everywhere else. And I don't mean just everywhere in the US, I mean everywhere. The attitude that it's only in the south only serves to blind people to racism around them.

    But that's not correct. There isn't "just as much racism" "everywhere else". There IS racism everywhere else, but not nearly "just as much" because the South is pretty racist and much more racist compared to everywhere else.

    I'm not saying they are the only ones to blame but it's just false to argue that racism isn't a larger problem in the South than other places, just as it's false to suggest that every location has equal amounts of racism in the world.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
  • Options
    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Drez wrote: »
    But that's not correct. There isn't "just as much racism" "everywhere else". There IS racism everywhere else, but not nearly "just as much" because the South is pretty racist and much more racist compared to everywhere else.

    I'm not saying they are the only ones to blame but it's just false to argue that racism isn't a larger problem in the South than other places, just as it's false to suggest that every location has equal amounts of racism in the world.

    Thank you Drez. I really needed a good laugh.

    Do yourself a favor and look up "sundown towns" sometime. And look at where they were mostly concentrated. Or read up on the busing showdown in Boston a few decades back. One of the biggest reasons we have such a huge fucking problem with race in the US is because racism is, in fact, an issue everywhere, yet we think of it as a purely Southern issue. Actually, in a way things are better in the South by simple virtue of the fact that they actually talk about it!

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • Options
    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Drez wrote: »
    But that's not correct. There isn't "just as much racism" "everywhere else". There IS racism everywhere else, but not nearly "just as much" because the South is pretty racist and much more racist compared to everywhere else.

    I'm not saying they are the only ones to blame but it's just false to argue that racism isn't a larger problem in the South than other places, just as it's false to suggest that every location has equal amounts of racism in the world.

    Thank you Drez. I really needed a good laugh.

    Do yourself a favor and look up "sundown towns" sometime. And look at where they were mostly concentrated. Or read up on the busing showdown in Boston a few decades back. One of the biggest reasons we have such a huge fucking problem with race in the US is because racism is, in fact, an issue everywhere, yet we think of it as a purely Southern issue. Actually, in a way things are better in the South by simple virtue of the fact that they actually talk about it!

    You're laughing at a joke I didn't tell.

    Racism is a huge problem everywhere. Note where I said otherwise, please. Or maybe note where I, in fact, said that racism is a huge problem everywhere, which is what I said.

    What I also said - and which is correct - is that racism is far more prevalent in the south. That's all. It's true but it doesn't make the racism elsewhere any less wrong or even less problematic.

    I don't know what to tell you if you don't think that racism is more prevalent in the Southern US except to pull your head out of the sand or maybe take a drive down one of the coasts.

    Of course there are plenty of racist areas (counties, cities, etc.) in the Northern US. In fact I'm sure there are some very specific areas in the North that are far more racist than some very specific areas in the South, if you do a 1:1, area-for-area, North-to-South comparison. I'm not saying every individual area in the South is more racist than every individual area in the North but the amount of racism in the South is MUCH more widespread.

    I mean you have Southerners who still fly the confederate fucking flag. You want to talk about an obscene, racist symbol? Let's talk about that.

    It's just false to claim either of the following:

    1) That racism is NOT more prevalent in the South.
    2) That racism being more prevalent in the South means it's not prevalent and extremely problematic anywhere else.

    I was not arguing #2. So you are really just laughing at your own miscomprehension of my post.

    Drez on
    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
  • Options
    imbalancedimbalanced Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Drez wrote: »

    I mean you have Southerners who still fly the confederate fucking flag. You want to talk about an obscene, racist symbol? Let's talk about that.

    Uh, most southerners who fly the confederate flag do not do so to reference racism. You're letting the history writers of the civil war use the one negative crux of the South dictate your entire knowledge of what the Confederacy stood for. That's silly.

    About the civil war: "One of the main quarrels was about taxes paid on goods brought into this country from foreign countries. This tax was called a tariff. Southerners felt these tariffs were unfair and aimed toward them because they imported a wider variety of goods than most Northern people. Taxes were also placed on many Southern goods that were shipped to foreign countries, an expense that was not always applied to Northern goods of equal value."

    Not saying that slavery wasn't an issue, but you misunderstand the political struggle that was going on between the north and south with population increases.

    "(In regard to the Confederate Flag flew over Slavery) While this is true, the same can be said of the U.S. Flag. The U.S. Flag flew over slavery a full 70 years before the Confederate States of America came into existence. The Confederate Flag never flew over the Ships that brought the slaves over here. To top it all off, the Confederate States of America freed her slaves in 1863; the Federal Union didn’t do it until 1868 with the passage of the 13th amendment."

    "The Confederate flag was a more egalitarian flag than the Federal flag, in that it had integrated troops within its army. In the Federal army, the black troops served in their own divisions and served under white officers. These troopers saw very little combat; they mostly served in servile roles, serving mostly as laborers and personal servants to the white officers."

    "The Confederate Army used Blacks both as Soldiers and laborers, there were those white officers in the Confederate Army that had personal servants, but this was not the norm. The Black Soldiers in the Confederate Army were paid the same rate as the White Soldier, they were paid more If they served as laborers. Plus if the Black Confederate soldiers found any Northern weapons or equipment, they could sell them to the Confederate Army for about twice what they were worth on the open market. "

    http://www.federationofstates.org/flag.htm (This website does not reflect my opinions, it's only linked as a different perspective)

    imbalanced on
    idc-sig.png
    Wii Code: 1040-1320-0724-3613 :!!:
  • Options
    MedopineMedopine __BANNED USERS regular
    edited October 2007
    Medopine wrote: »
    I'm talking about attitudes and prejudices. We may outlaw sending someone a picture of a noose with racial slurs and threats, but how does that really work to change the systemic racial prejudice in our country?

    I would argue it doesn't, really, except for deterring that type of expression of the attitude, which doesn't really go to the heart of the problem. And it's more dangerous because society THINKS the problem is going away when really, it isn't.

    It works because it sends a message to the idiots who do this shit that the community doesn't support them, Medopine. Which is the most effective way of stopping these idiots. Remember, most racists believe that most others believe as they do, they're just not willing to show it publically. When communities show that racisim isn't tolerated, it causes the perpetrators to recede into the shadows where they came from, because they realize they're not advocating a popular stance.

    Yeah but the point is, you pushed it into the shadows, where it still exists and continues to exist despite society thinking that it's gone away. Society's message is "we don't tolerate racism!" but really is more like "we don't tolerate racism where we can see it!"

    Anyhoo not much more to say and I gotta go to class.

    Medopine on
  • Options
    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Drez wrote: »
    What I also said - and which is correct - is that racism is far more prevalent in the south. That's all. It's true but it doesn't make the racism elsewhere any less wrong or even less problematic.
    Except you're not correct, Drez. That's why I laughed.
    Drez wrote: »
    I don't know what to tell you if you don't think that racism is more prevalent in the Southern US except to pull your head out of the sand or maybe take a drive down one of the coasts.
    The problem is that you're confusing blatancy with prevalence. They're not synonymous. You also have the problem of viewing racism through a very, very specific lens, which doesn't work. For instance, one rather non-traditional issue of racism that I got to see somewhat is the butting of heads between the African-American and Latino communities in Los Angeles, especially during Rampart.
    Drez wrote: »
    Of course there are plenty of racist areas (counties, cities, etc.) in the Northern US. In fact I'm sure there are some very specific areas in the North that are far more racist than some very specific areas in the South, if you do a 1:1, area-for-area, North-to-South comparison. I'm not saying every individual area in the South is more racist than every individual area in the North but the amount of racism in the South is MUCH more widespread.
    Again, this stems from blatancy != prevalence. Seriously, take some time and read some of the articles at Orcinus, and you'll get a well-needed wakeup call.
    Drez wrote: »
    I mean you have Southerners who still fly the confederate fucking flag. You want to talk about an obscene, racist symbol? Let's talk about that.
    Yeah...and I'm only about 2-4 hours away from Northern Idaho. Do I really need to talk about what goes on there?
    Drez wrote: »
    It's just false to claim either of the following:

    1) That racism is NOT more prevalent in the South.
    2) That racism being more prevalent in the South means it's not prevalent and extremely problematic anywhere else.
    Sorry, but 1 is true. You can try to claim it isn't, but the reality is, once you actually get into looking into things at a much deeper level, that racism is endemic everywhere. The only thing unique about the South is that they're more open about it.
    Drez wrote: »
    I was not arguing #2. So you are really just laughing at your own miscomprehension of my post.
    No, I'm laughing at how you can't see what's in front of you. Again, please look up "sundown towns" - I find that's a good point to seeing exactly how much of a problem racism is across the US.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
Sign In or Register to comment.