A saddening article on manga

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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Yeah, the constraints of the serialized superhero story tend to keep changes to a mainstream superhero fairly static. It tends to be more plot driven and revolve around set pieces. That's kinda the side effect of crafting stories around archetypes.

    wwtMask on
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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Is it weird that my two favorite "American Comic" writers are both from the UK?

    Doodmann on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Not really, no. The Brits have had plenty of successful comic creators over the years.

    wwtMask on
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  • Bob The MonkeyBob The Monkey Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    One day, I hope to be a successful British comic creator.

    So far they've come from England and Scotland, I feel it's about time Wales was represented.

    Bob The Monkey on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Is it weird that my two favorite "American Comic" writers are both from the UK?

    DC went and actively recruited UK talent in the 80s.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • AzraelAzrael Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I'm guessing those two are Ellis and Moore?

    I don't think there is much left to be said, being in England most of my comics are 'imported' (American comics and manga) and saying it is in any way 'wrong' for a westerner to read manga is like saying we should prevent American comics being read in Japan, which is also like saying they shouldn't be read in England. And fuck that.

    I think the reason manga, or rather anime and then manga be association, is doing well in the states with the kids is because I really can't think of many really good kids shows in recent years, and if someone is producing the colourful, fairly simple, and enjoyable shows kids like then they are going to follow them. True enough, I've not been looking for anything aimed at lower than 'teen' really but it should at least have shown on my radar.

    All that said, I absolutely do not approve of any westerner making a comic and calling it a manga, that's just fucking pretentious unless the author is of Japanese background, then it's a judgement call. If you are in an English speaking nation you have made a comic, in Japan a manga, Korea a manwah and so on.

    Azrael on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Other notable Brit creators I can think of are Millar, Ennis, Abnett and Lanning, and Mike Carey. These are all writers. I'm not so sure about any of the artists.

    wwtMask on
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  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Motherfucking Grant Morrison.

    Frank Quietly is also Scottish.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • Sars_BoySars_Boy Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Azrael wrote: »
    All that said, I absolutely do not approve of any westerner making a comic and calling it a COMIC, that's just fucking pretentious unless the author is of Japanese background, then it's a judgement call. If you are in an English speaking nation you have made a comic, in Japan a COMIC, Korea a COMIC and so on.

    Let's translate all the foreign words in the paragraph to English!

    Oh look, it's all the fucking same!

    Manga is not a genre, it's the Japanese word for comics.

    Sars_Boy on
  • AzraelAzrael Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I know that, which is why its so pretentious and stupid to invoke it as a kind of magic word in the hope it will make someone buy your shit comic.

    Azrael on
  • KreutzKreutz Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    ITT: Our printed media is better than your printed media.

    No one can accept that maybe this media is made for this audience, while another media is made for another audience. It's like criticizing Time Magazine for not having enough articles on CNC lathes. They're both magazines, aimed at separate audiences. No one is expecting the DC comic fans to like Naruto, or vice versa. Every time I see one of these topics on these boards, and especially in this section, the whole discussion smacks of a fear of manga competing with comics. Just give it up and accept the fact that some people like teenage ninjas.

    Especially when those teenage ninjas are also mutant turtles.

    Kreutz on
  • LeumasWhiteLeumasWhite New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Wildcat wrote: »
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    Anyway, you gotta remember that K_A here is the guy that tried/is trying to "chibify" Imperial Guard
    Oh my life, honestly? Is that in Critical Failures?

    God, don't look at it. It stops being amusing about two pages in.

    Belated: Vagabond is about Musashi, which is kinda historical, I guess. Mostly just dudes cutting each other with swords. I guess there was that random ghost scene with the monk, but that's all the weirdness I can think of.

    Anyway, peoples need to read Blame!, since it has extremely pretty art and a larger sense of scale than anything else I've read, manga or comic.

    LeumasWhite on
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  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Greeper wrote: »
    The reason I like manga.

    (I do im so sorry)

    is that comic books seem like too complicated to get into, I browse wikipedia articles like a fiend, and sure, I LOVE Sin City and Watchmen and V for Vendetta and Sandman but

    the real meat, the DC and Marvel, you need to buy like 600000shithousand issues to know waht's going on.

    because the internet doesn't exist.

    Though I understand where you are coming from. It is a lot easier to get into manga due to the stories being self contained in their own title.

    Algertman on
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Don't like superheroes? Fine, ignore those books, there are plenty left after that.

    Really? Then please show me where I can find comics about either a) Chinese Historical Fiction, b) Korean Historical fiction or even c) Central Asian Fiction? Cause I keep looking and looking and I can't find them. Or how about some comics about the Crusade? Or any sort of comics that focues on Central Asia/China/Korea?

    While Manga doesn't do option C or Crusades they do option A and B.

    ............HAHAHAHAHA!

    This post reminds me of GIANT ENEMY CRAB!

    Algertman on
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited October 2007
    Algertman wrote: »
    Greeper wrote: »
    The reason I like manga.

    (I do im so sorry)

    is that comic books seem like too complicated to get into, I browse wikipedia articles like a fiend, and sure, I LOVE Sin City and Watchmen and V for Vendetta and Sandman but

    the real meat, the DC and Marvel, you need to buy like 600000shithousand issues to know waht's going on.

    because the internet doesn't exist.

    Though I understand where you are coming from. It is a lot easier to get into manga due to the stories being self contained in their own title.

    But at the same time, pretty much the start of every creators run devotes a few pages to recap, and anything you find in trade that's marked Volume 1 is going to be largely self-contained excepting giant crossovers.

    Hooraydiation on
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  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Wildcat wrote: »
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    Anyway, you gotta remember that K_A here is the guy that tried/is trying to "chibify" Imperial Guard
    Oh my life, honestly? Is that in Critical Failures?

    God, don't look at it. It stops being amusing about two pages in.

    Belated: Vagabond is about Musashi, which is kinda historical, I guess. Mostly just dudes cutting each other with swords. I guess there was that random ghost scene with the monk, but that's all the weirdness I can think of.

    Anyway, peoples need to read Blame!, since it has extremely pretty art and a larger sense of scale than anything else I've read, manga or comic.



    MUSASHI.jpg

    MUUUUSASHIIIIIIIII!



    uhm

    sorry, I got carried away.

    Spectre-x on
  • AzraelAzrael Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Kreutz wrote: »
    ITT: Our printed media is better than your printed media.

    No one can accept that maybe this media is made for this audience, while another media is made for another audience. It's like criticizing Time Magazine for not having enough articles on CNC lathes. They're both magazines, aimed at separate audiences. No one is expecting the DC comic fans to like Naruto, or vice versa. Every time I see one of these topics on these boards, and especially in this section, the whole discussion smacks of a fear of manga competing with comics. Just give it up and accept the fact that some people like teenage ninjas.

    Especially when those teenage ninjas are also mutant turtles.

    I almost said something to the effect of "How did a guy with a CAD avatar get so smart?" before I got the joke of it. Well played.

    Azrael on
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I read the actual article today, and it was mainly about how manga was able to become so popular in Japan, and the unique relationship that manga publishers have with doujinshi artists. I don't know why this title says it's saddening.

    DarkPrimus on
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  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Azrael wrote: »
    I know that, which is why its so pretentious and stupid to invoke it as a kind of magic word in the hope it will make someone buy your shit comic.

    I'd like to call US publishers out on some bullshit I keep having to shelve at work.

    Shrinking your US published full size color graphic novels to half size and printing them without color does not make it fucking manga. Transformers, I'm looking at you.

    Delzhand on
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  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Wildcat wrote: »
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    Anyway, you gotta remember that K_A here is the guy that tried/is trying to "chibify" Imperial Guard
    Oh my life, honestly? Is that in Critical Failures?

    God, don't look at it. It stops being amusing about two pages in.

    Belated: Vagabond is about Musashi, which is kinda historical, I guess. Mostly just dudes cutting each other with swords. I guess there was that random ghost scene with the monk, but that's all the weirdness I can think of.

    Anyway, peoples need to read Blame!, since it has extremely pretty art and a larger sense of scale than anything else I've read, manga or comic.

    Post a link somebody, I must see this!

    Algertman on
  • LeumasWhiteLeumasWhite New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Algertman wrote: »
    Wildcat wrote: »
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    Anyway, you gotta remember that K_A here is the guy that tried/is trying to "chibify" Imperial Guard
    Oh my life, honestly? Is that in Critical Failures?

    God, don't look at it. It stops being amusing about two pages in.

    Belated: Vagabond is about Musashi, which is kinda historical, I guess. Mostly just dudes cutting each other with swords. I guess there was that random ghost scene with the monk, but that's all the weirdness I can think of.

    Anyway, peoples need to read Blame!, since it has extremely pretty art and a larger sense of scale than anything else I've read, manga or comic.

    Post a link somebody, I must see this!

    It's one of those weird titles where a single page or frame doesn't really get it across properly. The wikipedia article is here, though.

    Edit: er, assuming you meant Blame!. If you meant ash, then I dunno, anything he's posted in that forum is horrible.

    LeumasWhite on
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  • JCMJCM Registered User
    edited October 2007
    Its sadddening that manga, the biggest comic inddustry in the world, is on a decline...

    Some blame the Shounen (teens) properties gaining fame overseas, others blame the decline of one-shot graphic novel sales, but thankfully there is still a huge wealth of non-kiddie/fighting manga that hasnt reached the West, which are being faithfully trasnlated weekly by fans online.

    In another note, videogame sales are on an all-time low in Japan as well, yeah they stll buy consoles like crazy, but theyve stopped buyimng games.
    Anyway, peoples need to read Blame!, since it has extremely pretty art and a larger sense of scale than anything else I've read, manga or comic.

    Amen. Truly beautiful stuff.

    JCM on
  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Biomega is a great book too, set in Blame!'s past and drawn by Nihei as well. I think would have really enjoyed Trigun and Hellsing if I discovered them when I was 11 or 12 instead of 19.

    DouglasDanger on
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  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    JCM wrote: »
    Its sadddening that manga, the biggest comic inddustry in the world, is on a decline...

    Some blame the Shounen (teens) properties gaining fame overseas, others blame the decline of one-shot graphic novel sales, but thankfully there is still a huge wealth of non-kiddie/fighting manga that hasnt reached the West, which are being faithfully trasnlated weekly by fans online.

    In another note, videogame sales are on an all-time low in Japan as well, yeah they stll buy consoles like crazy, but theyve stopped buyimng games.
    Anyway, peoples need to read Blame!, since it has extremely pretty art and a larger sense of scale than anything else I've read, manga or comic.

    Amen. Truly beautiful stuff.

    Well way to be a douche bag and pirate stuff

    Algertman on
  • NartwakNartwak Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    You don't understand. Expanding to foreign markets is bad and making the industry decline, and fans translating and releasing comics for free is good and keeping the industry alive.

    Nartwak on
    Your sig is too tall. -Thanatos
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I found that Iraqi children respond quite quickly to having an M-16 pointed at them.
    mcdermott wrote: »
    If I found out tomorrow that you died, I'd be a happier person.
    Nartwak is the kind of person, that, if I was given the chance, no consequences, I would do horrible thing's to.

    I'm not even going to bother trying to deny that
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited October 2007
    Nartwak wrote: »
    You don't understand. Expanding to foreign markets is bad and making the industry decline, and fans translating and releasing comics for free is good and keeping the industry alive.

    Has it been proven that fan translations have an appreciable affect on the profits of the manga industry? I wouldn't think so considering how poor the pirated product is compared to an actual copy of a book translated by a professional.

    Hooraydiation on
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  • NartwakNartwak Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Has it been proven that fan translations have an appreciable affect on the profits of the manga industry?
    As there are so few quantified variables I don't think valid conclusions can be reached.
    I wouldn't think so considering how poor the pirated product is compared to an actual copy of a book translated by a professional.
    Okay. I wasn't aware people bought comics for the paper they're printed on. Good news for lumberjacks.

    Nartwak on
    Your sig is too tall. -Thanatos
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I found that Iraqi children respond quite quickly to having an M-16 pointed at them.
    mcdermott wrote: »
    If I found out tomorrow that you died, I'd be a happier person.
    Nartwak is the kind of person, that, if I was given the chance, no consequences, I would do horrible thing's to.

    I'm not even going to bother trying to deny that
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited October 2007
    Nartwak wrote: »
    Has it been proven that fan translations have an appreciable affect on the profits of the manga industry?
    As there are so few quantified variables I don't think valid conclusions can be reached.
    I wouldn't think so considering how poor the pirated product is compared to an actual copy of a book translated by a professional.
    Okay. I wasn't aware people bought comics for the paper they're printed on. Good news for lumberjacks.

    You could compare sales of books that have received fan translations to those of books that haven't. If you did, I wouldn't be surprised if books that were translated prior to their official stateside releases actually had higher sales here. Fan translations help stoke interest, leading to strong sales of the books and related merchandise thanks to comprehensive word of mouth among American manga fans.

    This is in addition to the fact that a book is more comfortable to read and infinitely more portable than scans on one's computer, a fact that you so easily wrote off. In my mind, the reason music piracy is a threat is because the stolen product is indistinguishable from the real thing once it's been ripped to a music player. The same is not true for books, though.

    Hooraydiation on
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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Some neat stuff is only available as scans though, like Biomega, Kamen Rider Spirits.

    DouglasDanger on
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  • KreutzKreutz Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Considering that fanscans and fanlations were central to manga spreading to other countries, I would think that the manga industry owes a certain debt of gratitude to pirates. I say this because, from what I've read and seen done in the industry, the manga companies don't seem to be ungrateful cocksuckers like a few other organizations I can think of.

    Kreutz on
  • NartwakNartwak Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Whatever you say.

    Nartwak on
    Your sig is too tall. -Thanatos
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I found that Iraqi children respond quite quickly to having an M-16 pointed at them.
    mcdermott wrote: »
    If I found out tomorrow that you died, I'd be a happier person.
    Nartwak is the kind of person, that, if I was given the chance, no consequences, I would do horrible thing's to.

    I'm not even going to bother trying to deny that
  • Red or AliveRed or Alive Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Pluto is also only available in scanned form. I'm not much for most of the manga that finds itself on Western bookstore shelves, but Pluto is particlularly excellent, and the fan-translation is worlds better than any other I've read.

    Red or Alive on
  • KVWKVW Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Naruto and Bleach are 2 highly popular manga's that sell spectacularly, literally destroying any US comic, while still having a rabid scanlation presence.

    When Vol 11 first came out...
    In its first full week of release Masashi Kishimoto's Naruto Vol. 11 published by Viz sold more copies in a seven-day period than any other graphic novel has managed to do in bookstores so far in 2006. How hot is Naruto? Naruto Vol. 9, which debuted in March, remains the best-selling graphic novel of 2006 so far according to the BookScan report of bookstore sales -- and all of the first ten volumes in the series would all rank in the top 12 in year-to-date sales with only DC's V for Vendetta and Tokyopop's Fruits Basket Vol. 13 interrupting Naruto's dominance.

    And now...
    Naruto Volume 11, which rocketed to #1 on the Bookscan graphic novel bestseller list in its first full week of release (see "Naruto Vol. 11 Tops Charts") is setting manga sales that exceed even its own previous record-setting pace. It hit #21 on USA Today's Top 150 list, the highest ever rank for a manga title.



    And Bookscan, which does not have visibility to sales by most of the direct market and many independent booksellers, is showing sales of 10,000 copies per week for its first two weeks on sale. This is a record sales velocity for a manga title in Bookscan reporting.


    Damn those pirates and their damn intertrons haxoring my megahertz!

    KVW on
  • LeumasWhiteLeumasWhite New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited October 2007
    A lot of fan stuff is better than the official. Look at the catastrophe that was Tenjou Tenge; it's a terrible manga either way, but CMX royally fucked it when they went through it. Censoring, lazy translation, panels that were just plain mirrored instead of edited. It's terrible.

    Most scanlation groups are ethical enough to stop distributing their stuff when the real thing is out, anyway. And they've helped me find a couple of neat titles that I wouldn't have know about otherwise.

    LeumasWhite on
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  • ParisInFlamesParisInFlames Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    The only manga I really enjoy is One Piece. Most others I've read I found the pacing to be really bad. And characters can be so one dimensional it's painful.

    Granted, I don't read a whole lot of American comics anymore either. Less than 10 or 12 titles I think.

    The biggest draw for me to a manga if it DOES interest me is the price. 7-10 bucks is fucking great. Another reason to like Runaways.

    ParisInFlames on
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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Part of the problem with US comics is that a some of the best stuff is outside the main (marvel/dc) universes. This is not to say that they don't give out stuff(Vertigo!), but rather that they main stuff no longer holds the cutting edge. Their main lines are dragging them down.

    Compare the best Vertigo stuff to the best regular DC stuff for the last 20 years. Vertigo is kicking ass.

    Take Superman. Its a telling sign that the most popular series and stories of the last decade have been elseworlds stories(Kingdom Come, Red Son).

    Marvel has the same problem in a smaller scale. The Ultimate line as an elseworld anyone?

    As for Manga I'll go with Sturgeon's law: 90% of everything is crap. Applies to Manga as much as anything else. There are great series out there, they are just drowned out by all the drek.

    All that being said; I used to watch the pokemon cartoon in the late 90s and I am watching Naruto now. They are adequate timewasters, not grand Epics. And thats all I want when I watch.

    Kipling217 on
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  • KVWKVW Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    As for Manga I'll go with Sturgeon's law: 90% of everything is crap. Applies to Manga as much as anything else. There are great series out there, they are just drowned out by all the drek.

    All that being said; I used to watch the pokemon cartoon in the late 90s and I am watching Naruto now. They are adequate timewasters, not grand Epics. And thats all I want when I watch.

    See, the difference between you and me is that you consider pokemon or naruto as the Superman or Batman or X-Men or whatever of manga. Those are just the manga / anime that the US distributors have deemed cookie cutter enough to appeal to the mass market of America and would fall under the 90% crap law you mention.

    KVW on
  • Katchem_ashKatchem_ash __BANNED USERS
    edited October 2007
    I guess I see Manga differently than most people then. I don't think any title I have read or am reading are crap, but many seem to think so. I personally like all Manga either because of the story telling or the art.

    Katchem_ash on
  • WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I'm curious, Ash, do you methodically choose which manga to buy, or are you saying that you've never read bad manga at all, even ones you picked up on a whim? I ask because I'd be hard pressed to say that, for example, I'd never read a book I didn't like, or never listened to a rock song I didn't like.

    Wildcat on
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    edited October 2007
    I guess I see Manga differently than most people then. I don't think any title I have read or am reading are crap, but many seem to think so. I personally like all Manga either because of the story telling or the art.

    Ash, 90% of EVERYTHING is crap. Accept it and move on. Trying to pretend that this law does not apply to manga is lunacy. It applies to all genres, all mediums, all the time. 90% of comics made this year: CRAP. 90% of comics made last year: CRAP. 90% of comics made in Japan(manga): CRAP. 90% of Comics made in the US: CRAP. 90% of comics made in Europe: CRAP.

    If you walk around saying everything is wonderfull, then nothing really is! What your saying is that every manga artist you have read is as good as Osamu Tezuka and you don't want that. (And if you don't know who that is, you don't know manga).

    PS. KVW,
    I was pointing out that the best US comics where non-mainstream. Not that they where worse than Japanese stuff. Superman at his best is better than both Pokemon and Naruto. But when was the last time the best Superman comics where in the mainstream DC universe? As opposed to elseworld stories? And Batman? He is the motherfucking Batman. Nuff' said.

    Kipling217 on
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