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[Vae Victus] Let's talk about Legacy of Kain (Spoilers in OP, read at your own risk)

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    SithDrummerSithDrummer Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Man, when Tony Jay died, I more or less gave up my last vestiges of hope for a LoK finale game. Defiance will just have to be it.

    SithDrummer on
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    Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Whenever people ask me which game I think has the best storyline, I always think of the Legacy of Kain series. SR2 in particular has the distinction of being the first game to actually give me the chills. Genuine chills, not some momentary shock or sense of frustration. Truly an excellent series. I always hope for a 6th installment...
    One showing the real fate of Janos Audron. Falling into a demon dimension doesn't mean he's dead. After all, consider the final exchange with the Hylden Lord:

    ***

    HL - You see what it has made of our once-fair race!

    Janos - I see you have taken your true form at last!

    HL - Then go and see what it makes of you!

    ***

    Oh yeah, you know he's coming back as some hideously evil mutant demon-vampire thing.

    Golden Yak on
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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    only played soul reaver on the DC but that week or so that I played it years ago has marked this entire series into my memory. what a great fucking game that was.

    it's a shame that one of them is bad, but for the story arc it seems worth owning.

    Variable on
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    GyralGyral Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Damn it to hell. Now I have to go find copies of SR2 and BO2 so I can play them (I have Defiance and SR). Sometimes I hate this place and its evil influence on my wallet.

    Gyral on
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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Golden Yak wrote: »
    Whenever people ask me which game I think has the best storyline, I always think of the Legacy of Kain series. SR2 in particular has the distinction of being the first game to actually give me the chills. Genuine chills, not some momentary shock or sense of frustration. Truly an excellent series. I always hope for a 6th installment...
    One showing the real fate of Janos Audron. Falling into a demon dimension doesn't mean he's dead. After all, consider the final exchange with the Hylden Lord:

    ***

    HL - You see what it has made of our once-fair race!

    Janos - I see you have taken your true form at last!

    HL - Then go and see what it makes of you!

    ***

    Oh yeah, you know he's coming back as some hideously evil mutant demon-vampire thing.

    Definitely. The ending sequence...I knew what was coming from a mile away, but just, the way it was done, just...Wow.

    You know, there was something I couldn't help but notice in Defiance. Whenever I was playing Raziel, things seemed...OFF somehow. In a good way. Like his perception of reality was beginning to fray a bit at the edge already. Made things more interesting.

    yalborap on
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    SimBenSimBen Hodor? Hodor Hodor.Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    drhazard wrote: »
    And I... am not your enemy... not your destroyer... I am, as before, your right hand... your sword...

    The flute boy from ALttP. Aeris' death. Snake Eater's ending. And this.

    About the Elder God...
    Doesn't Kain kill him in the end of Defiance? I mean, if I remember correctly, the whole temple collapses all over him and Kain leaves... I always sort of understood that as its death. And with Tony Jay's passing, it might just as well have been. :P

    One thing that's never been explained though, is just what IS the Elder God. Best hyphothesis I can come up with is that he was some sort of Hylden pre-invasion being/weapon, sent to Nosgoth to coordinate everything for the invasion. That all seems just a tad disappointingly simple, though. :P

    So I got the PS1 LoK pack in the mail today, and what's this I see? Fighting Force? The Amazon page didn't mention that one.

    It seems... offensively generic in every way.

    SimBen on
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    SnorkSnork word Jamaica Plain, MARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Wait shit these are ALL out for the PC? Holy crap. I need this. Blood Omen probably won't work on Vista though, huh?

    Snork on
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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    SimBen wrote: »
    drhazard wrote: »
    And I... am not your enemy... not your destroyer... I am, as before, your right hand... your sword...

    The flute boy from ALttP. Aeris' death. Snake Eater's ending. And this.

    About the Elder God...
    Doesn't Kain kill him in the end of Defiance? I mean, if I remember correctly, the whole temple collapses all over him and Kain leaves... I always sort of understood that as its death. And with Tony Jay's passing, it might just as well have been. :P

    One thing that's never been explained though, is just what IS the Elder God. Best hyphothesis I can come up with is that he was some sort of Hylden pre-invasion being/weapon, sent to Nosgoth to coordinate everything for the invasion. That all seems just a tad disappointingly simple, though. :P

    So I got the PS1 LoK pack in the mail today, and what's this I see? Fighting Force? The Amazon page didn't mention that one.

    It seems... offensively generic in every way.

    He's just a god isn't he? But he dislikes Vampires because their entire existence destroys the wheel of fate since they never naturally meet their destiny and their souls don't come to the Elder God.

    DarkWarrior on
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    SimBenSimBen Hodor? Hodor Hodor.Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SimBen wrote: »
    drhazard wrote: »
    And I... am not your enemy... not your destroyer... I am, as before, your right hand... your sword...

    The flute boy from ALttP. Aeris' death. Snake Eater's ending. And this.

    About the Elder God...
    Doesn't Kain kill him in the end of Defiance? I mean, if I remember correctly, the whole temple collapses all over him and Kain leaves... I always sort of understood that as its death. And with Tony Jay's passing, it might just as well have been. :P

    One thing that's never been explained though, is just what IS the Elder God. Best hyphothesis I can come up with is that he was some sort of Hylden pre-invasion being/weapon, sent to Nosgoth to coordinate everything for the invasion. That all seems just a tad disappointingly simple, though. :P

    So I got the PS1 LoK pack in the mail today, and what's this I see? Fighting Force? The Amazon page didn't mention that one.

    It seems... offensively generic in every way.

    He's just a god isn't he? But he dislikes Vampires because their entire existence destroys the wheel of fate since they never naturally meet their destiny and their souls don't come to the Elder God.

    Raziel has a talk with him in SR2 where he pretty much figures out that there's nothing really godly about the Elder God, he's just a big squid basically... also, the whole series makes it a point that absolutely everyone is chained to fate; even Moebius can't escape his without needing to manipulate both Kain and Raziel (the Reaver being the only loophole in Nosgoth's no-paradox policy). There's no doubt that the Elder God hates vampires and loves souls, but I think there's more to it than that. The question is, does he work for the Hylden, or do the Hylden work for him? Or are they borderline unrelated?

    SimBen on
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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    SimBen wrote: »
    SimBen wrote: »
    drhazard wrote: »
    And I... am not your enemy... not your destroyer... I am, as before, your right hand... your sword...

    The flute boy from ALttP. Aeris' death. Snake Eater's ending. And this.

    About the Elder God...
    Doesn't Kain kill him in the end of Defiance? I mean, if I remember correctly, the whole temple collapses all over him and Kain leaves... I always sort of understood that as its death. And with Tony Jay's passing, it might just as well have been. :P

    One thing that's never been explained though, is just what IS the Elder God. Best hyphothesis I can come up with is that he was some sort of Hylden pre-invasion being/weapon, sent to Nosgoth to coordinate everything for the invasion. That all seems just a tad disappointingly simple, though. :P

    So I got the PS1 LoK pack in the mail today, and what's this I see? Fighting Force? The Amazon page didn't mention that one.

    It seems... offensively generic in every way.

    He's just a god isn't he? But he dislikes Vampires because their entire existence destroys the wheel of fate since they never naturally meet their destiny and their souls don't come to the Elder God.

    Raziel has a talk with him in SR2 where he pretty much figures out that there's nothing really godly about the Elder God, he's just a big squid basically... also, the whole series makes it a point that absolutely everyone is chained to fate; even Moebius can't escape his without needing to manipulate both Kain and Raziel (the Reaver being the only loophole in Nosgoth's no-paradox policy). There's no doubt that the Elder God hates vampires and loves souls, but I think there's more to it than that. The question is, does he work for the Hylden, or do the Hylden work for him? Or are they borderline unrelated?

    I think they are unrelated to the Elder God. I also think that if he isn't strictly a god he does have some high rank and is control of the wheel of fate. He wants souls and vampires existing and turning the few remaining humans left in Kains future into vampires doesn't exactly work in EG's favour. So even if they are following a destiny (Except Raziel), he can't force them to die, take their souls and recycle them into the wheel.

    DarkWarrior on
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    SithDrummerSithDrummer Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SimBen wrote: »
    About the Elder God...
    Doesn't Kain kill him in the end of Defiance? I mean, if I remember correctly, the whole temple collapses all over him and Kain leaves... I always sort of understood that as its death. And with Tony Jay's passing, it might just as well have been. :P
    Well...

    Final lines from Legacy of Kain: Defiance follow:
    Elder God: You cannot destroy me, Kain. I am the Engine of Life itself... the Wheel will turn. The plague of your kind will be purged from this world. And on that inevitable day, your wretched, stagnant soul will finally be mine!
    Kain: In the meantime, you'd best burrow deep.
    The idea was that the Elder God lived, though if they wanted to make a new game now, despite Tony Jay's death, it's an easy move to say he died/was unable to escape.

    SithDrummer on
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    SimBenSimBen Hodor? Hodor Hodor.Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Oh man... Blood Omen 1 is even better the second time around, because you know what the hell's going on with all these crappy-ass FMVs and how significant it all is.

    SimBen on
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    MasoniteMasonite Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SimBen wrote: »
    SimBen wrote: »
    drhazard wrote: »
    And I... am not your enemy... not your destroyer... I am, as before, your right hand... your sword...

    The flute boy from ALttP. Aeris' death. Snake Eater's ending. And this.

    About the Elder God...
    Doesn't Kain kill him in the end of Defiance? I mean, if I remember correctly, the whole temple collapses all over him and Kain leaves... I always sort of understood that as its death. And with Tony Jay's passing, it might just as well have been. :P

    One thing that's never been explained though, is just what IS the Elder God. Best hyphothesis I can come up with is that he was some sort of Hylden pre-invasion being/weapon, sent to Nosgoth to coordinate everything for the invasion. That all seems just a tad disappointingly simple, though. :P

    So I got the PS1 LoK pack in the mail today, and what's this I see? Fighting Force? The Amazon page didn't mention that one.

    It seems... offensively generic in every way.

    He's just a god isn't he? But he dislikes Vampires because their entire existence destroys the wheel of fate since they never naturally meet their destiny and their souls don't come to the Elder God.

    Raziel has a talk with him in SR2 where he pretty much figures out that there's nothing really godly about the Elder God, he's just a big squid basically... also, the whole series makes it a point that absolutely everyone is chained to fate; even Moebius can't escape his without needing to manipulate both Kain and Raziel (the Reaver being the only loophole in Nosgoth's no-paradox policy). There's no doubt that the Elder God hates vampires and loves souls, but I think there's more to it than that. The question is, does he work for the Hylden, or do the Hylden work for him? Or are they borderline unrelated?

    I think they are unrelated to the Elder God. I also think that if he isn't strictly a god he does have some high rank and is control of the wheel of fate. He wants souls and vampires existing and turning the few remaining humans left in Kains future into vampires doesn't exactly work in EG's favour. So even if they are following a destiny (Except Raziel), he can't force them to die, take their souls and recycle them into the wheel.

    If the events in Soul Reaver take place in Nosgoth's future, the farthest we've seen in the history of Nosgoth, could it be assumed that the Wheel, rather the Pillars, is somehow connected to the fate of Nosgoth? i.e. because Kain refused the sacrifice, raised his vampire lieutenants, and ruled over Nosgoth for a millennium, wherein the human race was reduced to only a few small settlements, which in turn amounts to a limited number of souls left to fuel the "Engine of Life."
    We know how the Pillars were constructed to bind the Hylden to the realm in which they were banished, so how would the Pillars becoming corrupted doom Nosgoth to an age of death and decay?

    Masonite on
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    randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Masonite wrote: »
    SimBen wrote: »
    SimBen wrote: »
    drhazard wrote: »
    And I... am not your enemy... not your destroyer... I am, as before, your right hand... your sword...

    The flute boy from ALttP. Aeris' death. Snake Eater's ending. And this.

    About the Elder God...
    Doesn't Kain kill him in the end of Defiance? I mean, if I remember correctly, the whole temple collapses all over him and Kain leaves... I always sort of understood that as its death. And with Tony Jay's passing, it might just as well have been. :P

    One thing that's never been explained though, is just what IS the Elder God. Best hyphothesis I can come up with is that he was some sort of Hylden pre-invasion being/weapon, sent to Nosgoth to coordinate everything for the invasion. That all seems just a tad disappointingly simple, though. :P

    So I got the PS1 LoK pack in the mail today, and what's this I see? Fighting Force? The Amazon page didn't mention that one.

    It seems... offensively generic in every way.

    He's just a god isn't he? But he dislikes Vampires because their entire existence destroys the wheel of fate since they never naturally meet their destiny and their souls don't come to the Elder God.

    Raziel has a talk with him in SR2 where he pretty much figures out that there's nothing really godly about the Elder God, he's just a big squid basically... also, the whole series makes it a point that absolutely everyone is chained to fate; even Moebius can't escape his without needing to manipulate both Kain and Raziel (the Reaver being the only loophole in Nosgoth's no-paradox policy). There's no doubt that the Elder God hates vampires and loves souls, but I think there's more to it than that. The question is, does he work for the Hylden, or do the Hylden work for him? Or are they borderline unrelated?

    I think they are unrelated to the Elder God. I also think that if he isn't strictly a god he does have some high rank and is control of the wheel of fate. He wants souls and vampires existing and turning the few remaining humans left in Kains future into vampires doesn't exactly work in EG's favour. So even if they are following a destiny (Except Raziel), he can't force them to die, take their souls and recycle them into the wheel.

    If the events in Soul Reaver take place in Nosgoth's future, the farthest we've seen in the history of Nosgoth, could it be assumed that the Wheel, rather the Pillars, is somehow connected to the fate of Nosgoth? i.e. because Kain refused the sacrifice, raised his vampire lieutenants, and ruled over Nosgoth for a millennium, wherein the human race was reduced to only a few small settlements, which in turn amounts to a limited number of souls left to fuel the "Engine of Life."
    We know how the Pillars were constructed to bind the Hylden to the realm in which they were banished, so how would the Pillars becoming corrupted doom Nosgoth to an age of death and decay?

    It seems to me more like the Elder God is just a slightly powerful big squid with an ego complex who likes to think he is in charge of everything. When the end of Defiance shows that he is barely in charge of the pile of crap he sits on.

    randombattle on
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    I never asked for this!
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    Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Masonite wrote: »
    We know how the Pillars were constructed to bind the Hylden to the realm in which they were banished, so how would the Pillars becoming corrupted doom Nosgoth to an age of death and decay?
    Well, in SR2, in the ruined future Raziel visits, Nosgoth is plagued by hordes of demons, and they seem to be able to manifest in greater numbers there than any other era. I think the pillars' corruption implies that they're basically breaking down, and the demon realm that the Hylden were banished to is starting to seep into Nosgoth's dimension, hence the slow decay.

    As for the true nature of the Elder God - I agree that he's most likely some primordial deity, older than any other living thing. Truth be told, I see a number of potential parallel's between him and Chrono Trigger's Lavos - like Lavos, the Elder may have manipulated the living creatures of Nosgoth for millennia, fueling war and chaos so that he could grow stronger by feeding on souls. But Lavos is an instictual creature, whereas the Eldar is intelligent and scheming.
    Presumably, the Hylden found out about him, and were trying to find a way to free the races of Nosgoth from him - they warred with the vampires who served the Elder God, who probably found out what the Hylden were up to. Or maybe he just wanted to start a war between the two races so he could feed on the souls of those who died in the fighting. And when the vampires were cursed with immortality and lost the ability to breed naturally, they fell out of the Elder's favor, since they were no longer bound to a cycle of death and rebirth, depriving their god of food.

    Golden Yak on
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    MasoniteMasonite Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Golden Yak wrote: »
    Masonite wrote: »
    We know how the Pillars were constructed to bind the Hylden to the realm in which they were banished, so how would the Pillars becoming corrupted doom Nosgoth to an age of death and decay?
    Well, in SR2, in the ruined future Raziel visits, Nosgoth is plagued by hordes of demons, and they seem to be able to manifest in greater numbers there than any other era. I think the pillars' corruption implies that they're basically breaking down, and the demon realm that the Hylden were banished to is starting to seep into Nosgoth's dimension, hence the slow decay.

    True, but as I pointed out, the events in the first SR occur the farthest in Nosgoth's history. Where were the demons then?

    edit: Ah, nevermind. I was forgetting that
    certain events in SR2 result in an alternate timeline in the past.
    edit2: No, I think the original timeline would follow the same logic at least. Granted, SR was supposed to end differently, but what happens in Blood Omen should still be the same.

    Masonite on
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    The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Ok, because I never heard of Blood Omen before I played Legacy of Kain, I've managed to beat LoK, LoK2 and LoK: D and never played BO 1 or 2. So taking from what Ben said earlier could someone explain how
    LoK: D leads into BO2? Because er...BO2 came out awhile before LoK: D. I would have assumed that BO2 followed BO1 in it's own kind of story separate from LoK, and that BO and LoK "met up" in LoK: D. Is this not the case? If I want the story of LoK: D to continue I should play BO2? Because that just seems odd.

    The Dude With Herpes on
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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Ok, because I never heard of Blood Omen before I played Legacy of Kain, I've managed to beat LoK, LoK2 and LoK: D and never played BO 1 or 2. So taking from what Ben said earlier could someone explain how
    LoK: D leads into BO2? Because er...BO2 came out awhile before LoK: D. I would have assumed that BO2 followed BO1 in it's own kind of story separate from LoK, and that BO and LoK "met up" in LoK: D. Is this not the case? If I want the story of LoK: D to continue I should play BO2? Because that just seems odd.


    D and BO2 both show the results of SR2's ending in their own way.
    BO2 essentially shows what had Kain so freaked out as new memories formed from his new history being birthed. The Blood Omen portion of the series focuses more on Kain then Raziel, but it's all highly interlinked.

    yalborap on
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    The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    But does BO2 actually follow time-wise the end of LoK: D?

    The Dude With Herpes on
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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    But does BO2 actually follow time-wise the end of LoK: D?

    Not really.

    yalborap on
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    virgilsammsvirgilsamms Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Great OP, these games were amazing - some of my fondest gaming memories.

    virgilsamms on
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    StriferStrifer Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    It would be awesome if Crystal Dynamics could simply retcon BO2 or at least remake it, so that the plot follows perfectly and then wrap the series fully.

    Better yet, more or less remake the games and integrate into one neat modern-friendly package and send the series off with a bang. I know this isn't financially plausible, but a man can dream...

    Strifer on
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    Lars_DomusLars_Domus Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Great OP! I love this series.

    Masonite wrote: »
    Golden Yak wrote: »
    Masonite wrote: »
    We know how the Pillars were constructed to bind the Hylden to the realm in which they were banished, so how would the Pillars becoming corrupted doom Nosgoth to an age of death and decay?
    Well, in SR2, in the ruined future Raziel visits, Nosgoth is plagued by hordes of demons, and they seem to be able to manifest in greater numbers there than any other era. I think the pillars' corruption implies that they're basically breaking down, and the demon realm that the Hylden were banished to is starting to seep into Nosgoth's dimension, hence the slow decay.

    True, but as I pointed out, the events in the first SR occur the farthest in Nosgoth's history. Where were the demons then?

    They wouldn't really need to show themselves at that point, because Raziel was actually doing what they wanted him to. It's when he starts mucking about with time travel that he actually becomes a problem to them.

    As for the Elder God, I think he's basically just an omnipotent soul-devouring squid. All that "cycle of death and rebirth"-stuff is just an act to get fed.
    In SR2 you can also see how the Elder God is growing in physical size through the ages. The future is a wasteland in SR2 as well, and yet EG seems to be thriving as never before.
    I've been thinking, though, that there might have been an original Wheel of Fate, and that the Elder God is some sort of parasite that has latched on to it.

    Lars_Domus on
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    SimBenSimBen Hodor? Hodor Hodor.Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    But does BO2 actually follow time-wise the end of LoK: D?
    In terms of pure chronology, BO2 comes immediately after BO1, and before SR1. However, playing BO2 before SR1 would leave a lot of unexplained inconsistencies, because BO2's timeline is a direct result of the paradox at the end of SR2. I said Defiance leads into it because, narratively, BO2 is more or less the last act of the story. The whole plan of the Hylden/Elder God has been to get Kain to stop Raziel from merging with the Reaver, which causes a series of events seen in Defiance, which lead the Hylden to come back in Nosgoth's near-future - the near-future that is shown in BO2. BO2 shows the death of the Hylden Lord and the *possible* death of Janos Audron, though his ultimate fate is left vague. Basically, it all depends on whose point of view you see the story from - from Kain's perspective, BO2 is chapter 2, but from Janos' and the Hylden Lord's, it's the last chapter. The Vampire/Hylden war ends in BO2, so it's kind of the "last chapter".

    And as for the SR2 demon-future...
    That future was created as a result of Kain stopping Raziel from merging with the Reaver at the Sarafan Stronghold back at the beginning of the game. Since at that point Raziel hadn't yet found out about Janos and therefore hadn't decided to revive him yet, Nosgoth's history at that point said that the Reaver never attained its full power - therefore, when Kain went back in BO1 to kill William the Just, he was underpowered and fail to change history and was killed right there, and could not kill the remaining Pillar Guardians, which led the Pillars to become corrupted enough for demons to seep in Nosgoth, all without Kain's leadership. Of course, that would pretty much erase Raziel from existence, but seeing as he's seemingly free from the Wheel of Fate... Hang on a second. That doesn't work, because Kain is still around anyway.

    Okay, okay. Raziel doesn't merge with Reaver, Kain goes back but fails to kill William, comes back, vampire crusade doesn't happen, Moebius doesn't reveal himself as the Time Guardian and so Kain doesn't kill him, Time and Balance Pillars remain corrupted, demons seep in... but how is having two remaining corrupted Pillars worse than having them completely toppled?

    Okay, okay. So the demon armageddon has always been part of the timeline and happened while Kain was building his vampire forces elsewhere in Nosgoth. The demons did their part to kill humans, and then when there were enough vampires, Kain bulldozed all over them and the remaining humans.

    Yeah. I think.

    I'm gonna try to put the various timelines in the series in writing, maybe this'll clear it up for myself.

    Original timeline:
    Kain is killed, revived as a vampire, kills the Guardians, goes back, fails to kill William the Just, comes back, vampire crusade doesn't happen, Kain sacrifices himself to save Nosgoth because he figures there's always Vorador to keep the vampires around.

    Timeline 2:
    Kain goes back, kills William, comes back, crusade happens, Vorador is killed, kills the remaining Guardians, refuses the sacrifice, topples the Pillars, builds his forces while demons ravage Nosgoth, takes over the world, has baby vampires, stumbles upon Chronoplast, sees Raziel killing him and all vampires among other future-events, decides to get rid of Raziel, doesn't work, Raziel comes back, challenges Kain, Kain kills Raziel with Reaver, lives happily ever after, but sad 'cause Raziel's dead. :(

    Timeline 3:
    Reaver shatters on Raziel, Kain is puzzled, goes back to Chronoplast and witnesses the revised history, devises his plan to go back and prevent Raziel from merging with the Reaver while Raziel kills his brothers. Raziel catches up to him, follows him in the past, gets to the Reaver in the Sarafan stronghold and kills Kain. Timeline happens as normal, Raziel merges with Reaver after killing his human self. :(

    Timeline 4:
    Kain prevents Raziel from merging with Reaver, time-traveling shenanigans happen, Raziel winds up killing his own human self after seeing himself killing Janos Audron, then merges with Reaver. Timeline happens as normal, Kain is sad 'cause Raziel is gone. :(

    Timeline 5:
    Kain prevents Raziel from merging with Reaver, Hylden armageddon pops out of nowhere to say hi, Kain freaks out and tries to prevent Raziel from reviving Janos, Raziel doesn't get the memo, does it anyway, everyone has a happy reunion at the Elder God's place (there's free booze), Moebius is killed for real this time, but Raziel and Kain are both killed by the Elder God. :(

    Timeline 6:
    Super teary-eyed ending happens, Raziel merges with Kain, Kain uses super-Reaver to kill or bury or whatever the Elder God, Hylden armageddon still happens but now the Elder God is out of the picture, which is better right? Plus this one gets rid of the "but the Reaver isn't powered up" problem that plagues most of the other ones, which I don't have to bother explaining because none of the previous ones end up really happening in the end anyway. :D

    SimBen on
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    WillisIVIIXWillisIVIIX Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Thanks Sim my brain just imploded on itself because I thought I had a rough grasp on the plots within plots but now it seems I would have to refresher myself to get it back together. :P

    I never played BO1, but alot of my friends swear by BO2 I dunno why though. I played through BO2 completely once and cycling through my mind I'm fairly certain I deleted half of the info from my data banks.

    At this point since we lost the late great Tony Jay I'm sure they'd just write the Elder God out or have him be resolved at the beginning of another game (if they did one) with no spoken lines or maybe they'd just use some archived footage.
    I just want some sort of resolution, because as it stands it looks like everything happening thus far just is stagnant in a continuous loop, especially with how LoK: D ended. That and to do exactly what the series title depicts and finish off the Legacy of Kain. Now that Raziel has completely and utterly removed himself from the wheel what lies ahead for Kain. What will he ultimately accomplish? What will become of Nosgoth herself? I mean that's one of the fond memories I have of BO2, seeing Nosgoth with some life flickering about and not damned to the hell that Kain brings in the Future during SR. I mean it is a Legacy so there must be some end to have the tale be told. Though seriously the most epic moment in the whole series and the biggest plot twist is finding out that Kain truly has a heart.

    WillisIVIIX on
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    Lars_DomusLars_Domus Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SimBen wrote: »
    But does BO2 actually follow time-wise the end of LoK: D?
    In terms of pure chronology, BO2 comes immediately after BO1, and before SR1. However, playing BO2 before SR1 would leave a lot of unexplained inconsistencies, because BO2's timeline is a direct result of the paradox at the end of SR2. I said Defiance leads into it because, narratively, BO2 is more or less the last act of the story. The whole plan of the Hylden/Elder God has been to get Kain to stop Raziel from merging with the Reaver, which causes a series of events seen in Defiance, which lead the Hylden to come back in Nosgoth's near-future - the near-future that is shown in BO2. BO2 shows the death of the Hylden Lord and the *possible* death of Janos Audron, though his ultimate fate is left vague. Basically, it all depends on whose point of view you see the story from - from Kain's perspective, BO2 is chapter 2, but from Janos' and the Hylden Lord's, it's the last chapter. The Vampire/Hylden war ends in BO2, so it's kind of the "last chapter".

    And as for the SR2 demon-future...
    That future was created as a result of Kain stopping Raziel from merging with the Reaver at the Sarafan Stronghold back at the beginning of the game. Since at that point Raziel hadn't yet found out about Janos and therefore hadn't decided to revive him yet, Nosgoth's history at that point said that the Reaver never attained its full power - therefore, when Kain went back in BO1 to kill William the Just, he was underpowered and fail to change history and was killed right there, and could not kill the remaining Pillar Guardians, which led the Pillars to become corrupted enough for demons to seep in Nosgoth, all without Kain's leadership. Of course, that would pretty much erase Raziel from existence, but seeing as he's seemingly free from the Wheel of Fate... Hang on a second. That doesn't work, because Kain is still around anyway.

    Okay, okay. Raziel doesn't merge with Reaver, Kain goes back but fails to kill William, comes back, vampire crusade doesn't happen, Moebius doesn't reveal himself as the Time Guardian and so Kain doesn't kill him, Time and Balance Pillars remain corrupted, demons seep in... but how is having two remaining corrupted Pillars worse than having them completely toppled?

    Okay, okay. So the demon armageddon has always been part of the timeline and happened while Kain was building his vampire forces elsewhere in Nosgoth. The demons did their part to kill humans, and then when there were enough vampires, Kain bulldozed all over them and the remaining humans.

    Yeah. I think.

    I'm gonna try to put the various timelines in the series in writing, maybe this'll clear it up for myself.

    Original timeline:
    Kain is killed, revived as a vampire, kills the Guardians, goes back, fails to kill William the Just, comes back, vampire crusade doesn't happen, Kain sacrifices himself to save Nosgoth because he figures there's always Vorador to keep the vampires around.

    Timeline 2:
    Kain goes back, kills William, comes back, crusade happens, Vorador is killed, kills the remaining Guardians, refuses the sacrifice, topples the Pillars, builds his forces while demons ravage Nosgoth, takes over the world, has baby vampires, stumbles upon Chronoplast, sees Raziel killing him and all vampires among other future-events, decides to get rid of Raziel, doesn't work, Raziel comes back, challenges Kain, Kain kills Raziel with Reaver, lives happily ever after, but sad 'cause Raziel's dead. :(

    Timeline 3:
    Reaver shatters on Raziel, Kain is puzzled, goes back to Chronoplast and witnesses the revised history, devises his plan to go back and prevent Raziel from merging with the Reaver while Raziel kills his brothers. Raziel catches up to him, follows him in the past, gets to the Reaver in the Sarafan stronghold and merges with it. Timeline happens as normal, Kain is sad 'cause Raziel's gone. :(

    Timeline 4:
    Kain prevents Raziel from merging with Reaver, time-traveling shenanigans happen, Raziel winds up killing his own human self after seeing himself killing Janos Audron, then merges with Reaver. Timeline happens as normal, Kain is sad 'cause Raziel is gone. :(

    Timeline 5:
    Kain prevents Raziel from merging with Reaver, Hylden armageddon pops out of nowhere to say hi, Kain freaks out and tries to prevent Raziel from reviving Janos, Raziel doesn't get the memo, does it anyway, everyone has a happy reunion at the Elder God's place (there's free booze), Moebius is killed for real this time, but Raziel and Kain are both killed by the Elder God. :(

    Timeline 6:
    Super teary-eyed ending happens, Raziel merges with Kain, Kain uses super-Reaver to kill or bury or whatever the Elder God, Hylden armageddon still happens but now the Elder God is out of the picture, which is better right? Plus this one gets rid of the "but the Reaver isn't powered up" problem that plagues most of the other ones, which I don't have to bother explaining because none of the previous ones end up really happening in the end anyway. :D

    Nice summary, but I think you've got the events in SR2 slightly mixed up:
    Kain only prevents Raziel from being consumed by the Reaver once - at the very end of the game. In their earlier encounter in William's chapel he prevents Raziel from killing him (enabling him to save Raziel in the game's finale.)

    Lars_Domus on
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    SimBenSimBen Hodor? Hodor Hodor.Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Lars_Domus wrote: »
    SimBen wrote: »
    But does BO2 actually follow time-wise the end of LoK: D?
    In terms of pure chronology, BO2 comes immediately after BO1, and before SR1. However, playing BO2 before SR1 would leave a lot of unexplained inconsistencies, because BO2's timeline is a direct result of the paradox at the end of SR2. I said Defiance leads into it because, narratively, BO2 is more or less the last act of the story. The whole plan of the Hylden/Elder God has been to get Kain to stop Raziel from merging with the Reaver, which causes a series of events seen in Defiance, which lead the Hylden to come back in Nosgoth's near-future - the near-future that is shown in BO2. BO2 shows the death of the Hylden Lord and the *possible* death of Janos Audron, though his ultimate fate is left vague. Basically, it all depends on whose point of view you see the story from - from Kain's perspective, BO2 is chapter 2, but from Janos' and the Hylden Lord's, it's the last chapter. The Vampire/Hylden war ends in BO2, so it's kind of the "last chapter".

    And as for the SR2 demon-future...
    That future was created as a result of Kain stopping Raziel from merging with the Reaver at the Sarafan Stronghold back at the beginning of the game. Since at that point Raziel hadn't yet found out about Janos and therefore hadn't decided to revive him yet, Nosgoth's history at that point said that the Reaver never attained its full power - therefore, when Kain went back in BO1 to kill William the Just, he was underpowered and fail to change history and was killed right there, and could not kill the remaining Pillar Guardians, which led the Pillars to become corrupted enough for demons to seep in Nosgoth, all without Kain's leadership. Of course, that would pretty much erase Raziel from existence, but seeing as he's seemingly free from the Wheel of Fate... Hang on a second. That doesn't work, because Kain is still around anyway.

    Okay, okay. Raziel doesn't merge with Reaver, Kain goes back but fails to kill William, comes back, vampire crusade doesn't happen, Moebius doesn't reveal himself as the Time Guardian and so Kain doesn't kill him, Time and Balance Pillars remain corrupted, demons seep in... but how is having two remaining corrupted Pillars worse than having them completely toppled?

    Okay, okay. So the demon armageddon has always been part of the timeline and happened while Kain was building his vampire forces elsewhere in Nosgoth. The demons did their part to kill humans, and then when there were enough vampires, Kain bulldozed all over them and the remaining humans.

    Yeah. I think.

    I'm gonna try to put the various timelines in the series in writing, maybe this'll clear it up for myself.

    Original timeline:
    Kain is killed, revived as a vampire, kills the Guardians, goes back, fails to kill William the Just, comes back, vampire crusade doesn't happen, Kain sacrifices himself to save Nosgoth because he figures there's always Vorador to keep the vampires around.

    Timeline 2:
    Kain goes back, kills William, comes back, crusade happens, Vorador is killed, kills the remaining Guardians, refuses the sacrifice, topples the Pillars, builds his forces while demons ravage Nosgoth, takes over the world, has baby vampires, stumbles upon Chronoplast, sees Raziel killing him and all vampires among other future-events, decides to get rid of Raziel, doesn't work, Raziel comes back, challenges Kain, Kain kills Raziel with Reaver, lives happily ever after, but sad 'cause Raziel's dead. :(

    Timeline 3:
    Reaver shatters on Raziel, Kain is puzzled, goes back to Chronoplast and witnesses the revised history, devises his plan to go back and prevent Raziel from merging with the Reaver while Raziel kills his brothers. Raziel catches up to him, follows him in the past, gets to the Reaver in the Sarafan stronghold and merges with it. Timeline happens as normal, Kain is sad 'cause Raziel's gone. :(

    Timeline 4:
    Kain prevents Raziel from merging with Reaver, time-traveling shenanigans happen, Raziel winds up killing his own human self after seeing himself killing Janos Audron, then merges with Reaver. Timeline happens as normal, Kain is sad 'cause Raziel is gone. :(

    Timeline 5:
    Kain prevents Raziel from merging with Reaver, Hylden armageddon pops out of nowhere to say hi, Kain freaks out and tries to prevent Raziel from reviving Janos, Raziel doesn't get the memo, does it anyway, everyone has a happy reunion at the Elder God's place (there's free booze), Moebius is killed for real this time, but Raziel and Kain are both killed by the Elder God. :(

    Timeline 6:
    Super teary-eyed ending happens, Raziel merges with Kain, Kain uses super-Reaver to kill or bury or whatever the Elder God, Hylden armageddon still happens but now the Elder God is out of the picture, which is better right? Plus this one gets rid of the "but the Reaver isn't powered up" problem that plagues most of the other ones, which I don't have to bother explaining because none of the previous ones end up really happening in the end anyway. :D

    Nice summary, but I think you've got the events in SR2 slightly mixed up:
    Kain only prevents Raziel from being consumed by the Reaver once - at the very end of the game. In their earlier encounter in William's chapel he prevents Raziel from killing him (enabling him to save Raziel in the game's finale.)

    Oh right. Let me go back and edit that.

    SimBen on
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    The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    SimBen wrote: »
    Lars_Domus wrote: »
    SimBen wrote: »
    But does BO2 actually follow time-wise the end of LoK: D?
    In terms of pure chronology, BO2 comes immediately after BO1, and before SR1. However, playing BO2 before SR1 would leave a lot of unexplained inconsistencies, because BO2's timeline is a direct result of the paradox at the end of SR2. I said Defiance leads into it because, narratively, BO2 is more or less the last act of the story. The whole plan of the Hylden/Elder God has been to get Kain to stop Raziel from merging with the Reaver, which causes a series of events seen in Defiance, which lead the Hylden to come back in Nosgoth's near-future - the near-future that is shown in BO2. BO2 shows the death of the Hylden Lord and the *possible* death of Janos Audron, though his ultimate fate is left vague. Basically, it all depends on whose point of view you see the story from - from Kain's perspective, BO2 is chapter 2, but from Janos' and the Hylden Lord's, it's the last chapter. The Vampire/Hylden war ends in BO2, so it's kind of the "last chapter".

    And as for the SR2 demon-future...
    That future was created as a result of Kain stopping Raziel from merging with the Reaver at the Sarafan Stronghold back at the beginning of the game. Since at that point Raziel hadn't yet found out about Janos and therefore hadn't decided to revive him yet, Nosgoth's history at that point said that the Reaver never attained its full power - therefore, when Kain went back in BO1 to kill William the Just, he was underpowered and fail to change history and was killed right there, and could not kill the remaining Pillar Guardians, which led the Pillars to become corrupted enough for demons to seep in Nosgoth, all without Kain's leadership. Of course, that would pretty much erase Raziel from existence, but seeing as he's seemingly free from the Wheel of Fate... Hang on a second. That doesn't work, because Kain is still around anyway.

    Okay, okay. Raziel doesn't merge with Reaver, Kain goes back but fails to kill William, comes back, vampire crusade doesn't happen, Moebius doesn't reveal himself as the Time Guardian and so Kain doesn't kill him, Time and Balance Pillars remain corrupted, demons seep in... but how is having two remaining corrupted Pillars worse than having them completely toppled?

    Okay, okay. So the demon armageddon has always been part of the timeline and happened while Kain was building his vampire forces elsewhere in Nosgoth. The demons did their part to kill humans, and then when there were enough vampires, Kain bulldozed all over them and the remaining humans.

    Yeah. I think.

    I'm gonna try to put the various timelines in the series in writing, maybe this'll clear it up for myself.

    Original timeline:
    Kain is killed, revived as a vampire, kills the Guardians, goes back, fails to kill William the Just, comes back, vampire crusade doesn't happen, Kain sacrifices himself to save Nosgoth because he figures there's always Vorador to keep the vampires around.

    Timeline 2:
    Kain goes back, kills William, comes back, crusade happens, Vorador is killed, kills the remaining Guardians, refuses the sacrifice, topples the Pillars, builds his forces while demons ravage Nosgoth, takes over the world, has baby vampires, stumbles upon Chronoplast, sees Raziel killing him and all vampires among other future-events, decides to get rid of Raziel, doesn't work, Raziel comes back, challenges Kain, Kain kills Raziel with Reaver, lives happily ever after, but sad 'cause Raziel's dead. :(

    Timeline 3:
    Reaver shatters on Raziel, Kain is puzzled, goes back to Chronoplast and witnesses the revised history, devises his plan to go back and prevent Raziel from merging with the Reaver while Raziel kills his brothers. Raziel catches up to him, follows him in the past, gets to the Reaver in the Sarafan stronghold and merges with it. Timeline happens as normal, Kain is sad 'cause Raziel's gone. :(

    Timeline 4:
    Kain prevents Raziel from merging with Reaver, time-traveling shenanigans happen, Raziel winds up killing his own human self after seeing himself killing Janos Audron, then merges with Reaver. Timeline happens as normal, Kain is sad 'cause Raziel is gone. :(

    Timeline 5:
    Kain prevents Raziel from merging with Reaver, Hylden armageddon pops out of nowhere to say hi, Kain freaks out and tries to prevent Raziel from reviving Janos, Raziel doesn't get the memo, does it anyway, everyone has a happy reunion at the Elder God's place (there's free booze), Moebius is killed for real this time, but Raziel and Kain are both killed by the Elder God. :(

    Timeline 6:
    Super teary-eyed ending happens, Raziel merges with Kain, Kain uses super-Reaver to kill or bury or whatever the Elder God, Hylden armageddon still happens but now the Elder God is out of the picture, which is better right? Plus this one gets rid of the "but the Reaver isn't powered up" problem that plagues most of the other ones, which I don't have to bother explaining because none of the previous ones end up really happening in the end anyway. :D

    Nice summary, but I think you've got the events in SR2 slightly mixed up:
    Kain only prevents Raziel from being consumed by the Reaver once - at the very end of the game. In their earlier encounter in William's chapel he prevents Raziel from killing him (enabling him to save Raziel in the game's finale.)

    Oh right. Let me go back and edit that.

    DAMNIT! Ok, whatever company owns the rights to LoK at the moment: You have until I finish playing through the whole series straight through again to release a "final" game to the series. I'm currently stabbing demon faces in Hellgate London so you have some extra time.

    Get to it!
    What is it about convoluted time warping stories that enthrall me so much? It doesn't hurt that the LoK series has like some of the best damn voice acting in the history of vidja gaming. /sigh

    The Dude With Herpes on
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    NorayNoray Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Okay you guys have done it. You've made me read up on what happened in Blood Omen and Soul Reaver 1 on gamefaqs, and finally made me get around to playing the copy of SR2 on PC I've had around for aaaaages (for some reason). So now, I have a few questions!

    Why did Mortanius ressurrect Kain as vampire and basically instruct him to kill all the guardians even though he was one himself?

    And also, am I correct in assuming that really not that much of great importance happened in SR1 except for introducing Raziel and the Elder God, and Raziel getting the reaver and basically learning who he is? Like, compared to BO, it seems like not a lot of critical story stuff happened to it, it seemed more to introduce us to Raziel and the world of Nozgoth post-Kain, as it were. It seems like Kain already knew that he was setting in motion something great, basically the game seems like a prelude to SR2 and Defiance. Is it worth tracking down the game for PSX/DC or am I set reading the summary and just going on with SR2?

    I'm only about an hour into it but I'm already really digging the stuff that's going on. I mean, it's a pretty epic story line, and not really like anything I've ever seen in games before. It's a huge, vast story stretched over several games, and a lot of it seemed pre-planned. I love how they keep things mysterious and really drive the player forward. That cutscene with Kain at the Pillars of Nozgoth right after you escape the cathedral was pretty awesome.

    Thanks a lot for getting me hooked D::D

    Noray on
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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    Noray wrote: »
    Okay you guys have done it. You've made me read up on what happened in Blood Omen and Soul Reaver 1 on gamefaqs, and finally made me get around to playing the copy of SR2 on PC I've had around for aaaaages (for some reason). So now, I have a few questions!

    Why did Mortanius ressurrect Kain as vampire and basically instruct him to kill all the guardians even though he was one himself?

    And also, am I correct in assuming that really not that much of great importance happened in SR1 except for introducing Raziel and the Elder God, and Raziel getting the reaver and basically learning who he is? Like, compared to BO, it seems like not a lot of critical story stuff happened to it, it seemed more to introduce us to Raziel and the world of Nozgoth post-Kain, as it were. It seems like Kain already knew that he was setting in motion something great, basically the game seems like a prelude to SR2 and Defiance. Is it worth tracking down the game for PSX/DC or am I set reading the summary and just going on with SR2?

    I'm only about an hour into it but I'm already really digging the stuff that's going on. I mean, it's a pretty epic story line, and not really like anything I've ever seen in games before. It's a huge, vast story stretched over several games, and a lot of it seemed pre-planned. I love how they keep things mysterious and really drive the player forward. That cutscene with Kain at the Pillars of Nozgoth right after you escape the cathedral was pretty awesome.

    Thanks a lot for getting me hooked D::D


    I'm pretty sure Mortanius was being corrupted by love for Ariel.

    EDIT: Slightly wrong, he was possessed by the Hylden who killed Ariel to corrupt the pillars and weaken them. Kain was turned into a vamp tor estore balance by killing the corrupted guardians.

    DarkWarrior on
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Raziel ate the ghosts of the Balance Guardians, though. And that's what gives the Soul Reaver its power - Raziel is caged inside the blade and the ghosts are inside Raziel. So does that mean Raziel is dead for good when the blade breaks in the beginning of Soul Reaver? You can say 'history abhors a paradox' all you want but is Raziel dead for good when it shatters? Can he be put back together with super glue and duct tape?

    Now we need the LoK series remade for this generation ... keeping in mind that werewolves > vampires. :p

    emnmnme on
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    StollsStolls Brave Corporate Logo Chicago, ILRegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    One of my favorite cutscenes comes from SR2, where Raziel confronts Moebius
    in the future, as a ghost. I forget the exact context, I think Moebius says the demonic invasion was due to Raziel not killing Kain, or somesuch. Raziel suspects he's lying, that he's not really dead and it's yet another trick, and reaches for his mask.

    Moebius scowls and disappears, and Raziel says "I didn't think so. Either way... you would lose."

    The series has a way of making even simple lines unassailably cool :^:

    Stolls on
    kstolls on Twitch, streaming weekends at 9pm CST!
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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Raziel ate the ghosts of the Balance Guardians, though. And that's what gives the Soul Reaver its power - Raziel is caged inside the blade and the ghosts are inside Raziel. So does that mean Raziel is dead for good when the blade breaks in the beginning of Soul Reaver? You can say 'history abhors a paradox' all you want but is Raziel dead for good when it shatters? Can he be put back together with super glue and duct tape?

    Unless you're talking about a different scene, the blade breaking is what creates the Soul Reaver blade that Raziel wields. He's using his own future soul as a blade.

    DarkWarrior on
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    SnorkSnork word Jamaica Plain, MARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Raziel ate the ghosts of the Balance Guardians, though. And that's what gives the Soul Reaver its power - Raziel is caged inside the blade and the ghosts are inside Raziel. So does that mean Raziel is dead for good when the blade breaks in the beginning of Soul Reaver? You can say 'history abhors a paradox' all you want but is Raziel dead for good when it shatters? Can he be put back together with super glue and duct tape?

    Now we need the LoK series remade for this generation ... keeping in mind that werewolves > vampires. :p
    He's not, beause the Soul Reaver wasn't destroyed, it just separated into the regular old Reaver (but broken) and the soul-devouring entity within it (which is Raziel's soul, the wraith blade). His soul still survives, and then gets re-bound to the Reaver to make it the Soul Reaver again at the end of Defiance.

    At least I'm pretty sure that's how it works. God I hope it is, otherwise I have no idea what's going on.

    Snork on
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Oh! So the Soul Reaver is just a regular sword without Raziel? It had no magical, mystic, supernatural properties without a soul inside of it ... but then why did Janos make just a wavy blade with a little skull on the hilt if it wasn't magical? Just to open doors in long-forgotten tombs?

    emnmnme on
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    SnorkSnork word Jamaica Plain, MARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Powerslave wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Oh! So the Soul Reaver is just a regular sword without Raziel? It had no magical, mystic, supernatural properties without a soul inside of it ... but then why did Janos make just a wavy blade with a little skull on the hilt if it wasn't magical? Just to open doors in long-forgotten tombs?

    Prior to becoming the Soul Reaver it was the Blood Reaver. It operated the same in principle, it just drank blood instead of souls. Then it made the transition from vampiric blade to soul-rending one when Raziel got sucked into it.

    I remember my first time through reading the plot synopsis on GFAQs, I was totally confused by this fact. The author did nothing to differentiate the two Reavers.
    So Kain gets the Soul Reaver in Blood Omen. Do we ever find out how it gets just left lying around in that timeline? Did he get it because the paradox at the end of Soul Reaver 2 hadn't happened yet?

    Snork on
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    PowerslavePowerslave Registered User regular
    edited November 2007
    Snork wrote: »
    Powerslave wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Oh! So the Soul Reaver is just a regular sword without Raziel? It had no magical, mystic, supernatural properties without a soul inside of it ... but then why did Janos make just a wavy blade with a little skull on the hilt if it wasn't magical? Just to open doors in long-forgotten tombs?

    Prior to becoming the Soul Reaver it was the Blood Reaver. It operated the same in principle, it just drank blood instead of souls. Then it made the transition from vampiric blade to soul-rending one when Raziel got sucked into it.

    I remember my first time through reading the plot synopsis on GFAQs, I was totally confused by this fact. The author did nothing to differentiate the two Reavers.
    So Kain gets the Soul Reaver in Blood Omen. Do we ever find out how it gets just left lying around in that timeline? Did he get it because the paradox at the end of Soul Reaver 2 hadn't happened yet?

    We never actually get an explanation on who left the Soul Reaver sitting inside Avernus Cathedral in Blood Omen, but given how manipulative over the eras Mobius is shown to be it was probably him.

    Edit: Or it was put there as a relic by the crazy priestess, and Mobius had nothing to do with it and just capitalized on its presence. Near-omniscience has a way of making things work for you by default.

    Powerslave on
    "Never trust anyone who spells 'magic' with a K."
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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    I think some things are just beyond our comprehension.

    The sword ended up in young Kain's possession thanks to Moebius I think since he wanted him to attack the Nemesis and incite that vampire war that would wipe out the vampire race apart from Kain.

    And yes, the sword is actually called the blood reaver and absorbs blood, plus its just generally powerful. But when it was stuck into Raziel it started consuming his soul but it started consuming his soul because his soul, the reaver, was already in there and famished for some soul, which Raziel had but which was being eaten up by his soul in the sword because its the soul of the reaver that likes to eat souls which it can do because its impaled in Raziels chest and is eating his soul.

    The blood reaver broke because Raziels soul within the sword couldn't be used to cut his soul in Raziels corpse.

    DarkWarrior on
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    SnorkSnork word Jamaica Plain, MARegistered User regular
    edited November 2007
    I think some things are just beyond our comprehension.

    The sword ended up in young Kain's possession thanks to Moebius I think since he wanted him to attack the Nemesis and incite that vampire war that would wipe out the vampire race apart from Kain.

    And yes, the sword is actually called the blood reaver and absorbs blood, plus its just generally powerful. But when it was stuck into Raziel it started consuming his soul but it started consuming his soul because his soul, the reaver, was already in there and famished for some soul, which Raziel had but which was being eaten up by his soul in the sword because its the soul of the reaver that likes to eat souls which it can do because its impaled in Raziels chest and is eating his soul.

    The blood reaver broke because Raziels soul within the sword couldn't be used to cut his soul in Raziels corpse.

    Except if his soul was within the Blood Reaver it would be the Soul Reaver.

    Snork on
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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2007
    Snork wrote: »
    I think some things are just beyond our comprehension.

    The sword ended up in young Kain's possession thanks to Moebius I think since he wanted him to attack the Nemesis and incite that vampire war that would wipe out the vampire race apart from Kain.

    And yes, the sword is actually called the blood reaver and absorbs blood, plus its just generally powerful. But when it was stuck into Raziel it started consuming his soul but it started consuming his soul because his soul, the reaver, was already in there and famished for some soul, which Raziel had but which was being eaten up by his soul in the sword because its the soul of the reaver that likes to eat souls which it can do because its impaled in Raziels chest and is eating his soul.

    The blood reaver broke because Raziels soul within the sword couldn't be used to cut his soul in Raziels corpse.

    Except if his soul was within the Blood Reaver it would be the Soul Reaver.


    Its still a blood reaver as far as I'm aware but I think it was renamed to the Soul Reaver in the Nosgoth future.

    DarkWarrior on
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